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Strathfield Municipal Council's oral history project recording the memories of former mayors and council staff. It's an interview with Paul Wilson on Thursday the 12th of February 2004 and the interviewer is Rosalind Burge. Strathfield Municipal Council's oral history project recording the memories of former mayors and council staff. It's an interview with Paul Wilson on Thursday the 12th of February 2004 and the interviewer is Rosalind Burge.
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Paul, thank you again for allowing us to come and interview you for this project. When we finished the second day, you were talking about the Inner City Waste Board. Could you finish off your thoughts about that? [Paul] Well, the Inner City Waste Board was formed by state government in an attempt to bring some sanity, if you like, to the disposal of waste within the Sydney Basin. Paul, thank you again for allowing us to come and interview you for this project. When we finished the second day, you were talking about the Inner City Waste Board. Could you finish off your thoughts about that? [Paul] Well, the Inner City Waste Board was formed by state government in an attempt to bring some sanity, if you like, to the disposal of waste within the Sydney Basin.
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Up to that point in time, most councils made their own arrangements to dispose of waste and the waste boards were an attempt to Up to that point in time, most councils made their own arrangements to dispose of waste and the waste boards were an attempt to
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detail where councils could tip their waste to control what tipping space, detail where councils could tip their waste to control what tipping space,
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to arrange for the construction of transfer stations for those councils that didn't have their own waste disposal facilities, to arrange for the construction of transfer stations for those councils that didn't have their own waste disposal facilities,
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and to promote recycling. and to promote recycling.
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And one of the projects that And one of the projects that
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sprung from that was the proposal for Burwood and Strathfield to combine with a single contract to control their recycling. sprung from that was the proposal for Burwood and Strathfield to combine with a single contract to control their recycling.
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And I was part of the And I was part of the
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team that had to work out team that had to work out
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how this was going to be done? how this was going to be done?
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There was myself, Harry Gravillis, who was the Chief Health and Building Surveyor from Burwood and There was myself, Harry Gravillis, who was the Chief Health and Building Surveyor from Burwood and
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our representative from the Waste Board, I'm trying to think of his name and it'll come to me in a minute. And we have to sit down and we have to actually draw up the contract our representative from the Waste Board, I'm trying to think of his name and it'll come to me in a minute. And we have to sit down and we have to actually draw up the contract
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for the recycling, for the recycling,
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which involved a collection site and a disposal site, which involved a collection site and a disposal site,
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and also to and also to
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work out work out
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how the contracts were going to be assessed and awarded. how the contracts were going to be assessed and awarded.
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And it was a fairly long and protracted exercise, as you can appreciate. And it was a fairly long and protracted exercise, as you can appreciate.
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It took probably 18 months to get it all organized because having then drafted the draft or having drafted It took probably 18 months to get it all organized because having then drafted the draft or having drafted
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the contract, we then had to get a legal opinion on it to determine whether or not it was legally sound. Then we had to comply, of course, with the the contract, we then had to get a legal opinion on it to determine whether or not it was legally sound. Then we had to comply, of course, with the
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requirements of the Act for the calling of tenders and then we have to ascertain having got the tenders which was the most appropriate and there were quite a number of variables from the various companies that were submitted. Some were on a per ton basis, some were on a per kilometre basis. requirements of the Act for the calling of tenders and then we have to ascertain having got the tenders which was the most appropriate and there were quite a number of variables from the various companies that were submitted. Some were on a per ton basis, some were on a per kilometre basis.
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Some were a bit of both. Some were a bit of both.
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Some were on the, on the basis of them being able to tip in a certain spot and they didn't have permission to do that at the time. Some were on the, on the basis of them being able to tip in a certain spot and they didn't have permission to do that at the time.
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[Roslyn] When are we talking about? [Paul] It only came in, probably the, [Roslyn] When are we talking about? [Paul] It only came in, probably the,
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it resulted in us receiving the Inner Sydney Waste Board's Award for that year, which was the last year in fact the Waste Boards were in existence, because the following year the Act was again changed and the Waste Boards were disbanded and it was just before I retired, which was in 19. it resulted in us receiving the Inner Sydney Waste Board's Award for that year, which was the last year in fact the Waste Boards were in existence, because the following year the Act was again changed and the Waste Boards were disbanded and it was just before I retired, which was in 19.
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When was that? Two years ago, anyway, from today, which is about 2001, 2002. When was that? Two years ago, anyway, from today, which is about 2001, 2002.
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I'll have to have a look at the award because it's up on the public display. I'll have to have a look at the award because it's up on the public display.
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But that was very satisfying because it was, it saved Council a lot of money in the long term in in both in the collecting and disposal costs. But that was very satisfying because it was, it saved Council a lot of money in the long term in in both in the collecting and disposal costs.
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And And
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it worked out very well for both councils. it worked out very well for both councils.
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It was just before I retired. It was just before I retired.
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And I'm just trying to think where that'd be, it was And I'm just trying to think where that'd be, it was
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yeah, about 2001, 2002. yeah, about 2001, 2002.
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[Roslyn] Paul, you're talking about your retirement. You haven't really retired at all because you have two cards. We talked in the last interview about your Monday to Wednesday job and you got another job. [Paul] Yes. [Roslyn] Thursday, Friday. [Paul]  Well, when I started the Monday, Wednesday job, so actually we just two days took between two and three days a week doing compliance inspection. There was a shortage within the Planning and Development Department and they actually asked me to come back. After I came back [Roslyn] Paul, you're talking about your retirement. You haven't really retired at all because you have two cards. We talked in the last interview about your Monday to Wednesday job and you got another job. [Paul] Yes. [Roslyn] Thursday, Friday. [Paul]  Well, when I started the Monday, Wednesday job, so actually we just two days took between two and three days a week doing compliance inspection. There was a shortage within the Planning and Development Department and they actually asked me to come back. After I came back
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they asked me to do some development planning work as a development officer, which I did until they could replace a couple of people who had left. I then became, reverted to the job that I actually applied for, which was the Compliance Officer, which was basically determining compliance with conditions of DA consent for development throughout the Municipality. They then they asked me to do some development planning work as a development officer, which I did until they could replace a couple of people who had left. I then became, reverted to the job that I actually applied for, which was the Compliance Officer, which was basically determining compliance with conditions of DA consent for development throughout the Municipality. They then
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decided that they needed somebody to do the, what's known as the Essential Services Register, which is a register of all firefighting services decided that they needed somebody to do the, what's known as the Essential Services Register, which is a register of all firefighting services
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within buildings and they need to be upgraded, sorry, they need to be certified annually to Council that they, to verify that they are still efficient and running properly and Council had to, is required to have a a register of those. So I was asked to compile a register which hadn't been done and that went back to July 1988. So we finished that and we've now written to all within buildings and they need to be upgraded, sorry, they need to be certified annually to Council that they, to verify that they are still efficient and running properly and Council had to, is required to have a a register of those. So I was asked to compile a register which hadn't been done and that went back to July 1988. So we finished that and we've now written to all
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the relevant people and asked them to upgrade or to to certify their systems. the relevant people and asked them to upgrade or to to certify their systems.
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And then in the environmental section, Mr. Harry Healy And then in the environmental section, Mr. Harry Healy
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was doing two days a week doing food shop inspections and inspections of complaints associated with the Health Department. was doing two days a week doing food shop inspections and inspections of complaints associated with the Health Department.
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And he And he
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used to come up from Wollongong for the two days, which was useful when his granddaughter was in Sydney, but they they moved so he decided that it wasn't worth his while to come up here, because he used to stay with them on the Thursday night. used to come up from Wollongong for the two days, which was useful when his granddaughter was in Sydney, but they they moved so he decided that it wasn't worth his while to come up here, because he used to stay with them on the Thursday night.
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And so he said no, he wouldn't be able to do it anymore. And they asked me if I could do that job. So my Thursday and Friday job now is an Environmental Health Officer doing food shop inspections. And so he said no, he wouldn't be able to do it anymore. And they asked me if I could do that job. So my Thursday and Friday job now is an Environmental Health Officer doing food shop inspections.
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[Roslyn] You do other sorts of inspections, you had the most interesting exercise this morning? [Paul] Yes, that was, um [Roslyn] You do other sorts of inspections, you had the most interesting exercise this morning? [Paul] Yes, that was, um
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most of the complaints that come into Council are usually either town planning or health related. most of the complaints that come into Council are usually either town planning or health related.
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And And
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there, there has been, the Council has now adopted a formal policy in respect to the operation of brothels in the area. there, there has been, the Council has now adopted a formal policy in respect to the operation of brothels in the area.
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And we had received an application for a brothel in Cosgrove Road which is in our industrial area and we had had reports that it was operating prior to the consent being granted. So I had to make arrangements to go and inspect it this morning to see a) whether or not there had been any unauthorised work done to the building and b) whether or not it was operating without consent. And we had received an application for a brothel in Cosgrove Road which is in our industrial area and we had had reports that it was operating prior to the consent being granted. So I had to make arrangements to go and inspect it this morning to see a) whether or not there had been any unauthorised work done to the building and b) whether or not it was operating without consent.
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So having done that and taken some photos, that's been referred to the officer who's dealing with the particular application and that's incorporated into his report to Council. So having done that and taken some photos, that's been referred to the officer who's dealing with the particular application and that's incorporated into his report to Council.
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[Roslyn] That's been an issue at various times through Strathfield's past those sorts of calls for that sort of? [Paul] Yes, the houses of ill repute as they were were known of have been operating illegally in Council's area for as long as I've been here. [Roslyn] That's been an issue at various times through Strathfield's past those sorts of calls for that sort of? [Paul] Yes, the houses of ill repute as they were were known of have been operating illegally in Council's area for as long as I've been here.
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They are extremely difficult to control because of the way the legislation is written. They are extremely difficult to control because of the way the legislation is written.
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You must obtain sufficient evidence to prove that they are being used for that purpose. You must obtain sufficient evidence to prove that they are being used for that purpose.
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And basically the only way you can do that is to hire a private investigator to call on the premises. And basically the only way you can do that is to hire a private investigator to call on the premises.
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And having obtained the sufficient information, you've then got to launch a court case through the courts. And we had one case where we spent a considerable amount of time and a considerable amount of money getting all the evidence. We got it to the courthouse steps, and on the morning of the court case, the person who owned the premises sold it to their daughter. And having obtained the sufficient information, you've then got to launch a court case through the courts. And we had one case where we spent a considerable amount of time and a considerable amount of money getting all the evidence. We got it to the courthouse steps, and on the morning of the court case, the person who owned the premises sold it to their daughter.
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Which meant that we could not proceed with that and we had to start all over again against the daughter. Which meant that we could not proceed with that and we had to start all over again against the daughter.
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And it had to cost us at that stage $35,000 in legal costs. It was not that long ago. It's probably about five years ago, might have been a bit longer. And it had to cost us at that stage $35,000 in legal costs. It was not that long ago. It's probably about five years ago, might have been a bit longer.
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Because a lot of them advertise as massage studios and remedial massage and any other sort of massage you like to call it. Because a lot of them advertise as massage studios and remedial massage and any other sort of massage you like to call it.
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And some of them are certainly legitimate and some of them aren't. But it's a matter of being able to prove which is which and then being able to take appropriate action. And some of them are certainly legitimate and some of them aren't. But it's a matter of being able to prove which is which and then being able to take appropriate action.
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[Roslyn] So Paul, your job certainly couldn't be described as a desktop job? [Paul] No, it's it's that's one of the things that attracted me to the position in the first place was a) the fact it was varied and b) the fact that it wasn't desk bound. I mean, there would be occasions when I'd come into the office, I'd have my day planned, I'd open the first file and I'd go home at five o'clock and that file would still be open on my desk, [Roslyn] So Paul, your job certainly couldn't be described as a desktop job? [Paul] No, it's it's that's one of the things that attracted me to the position in the first place was a) the fact it was varied and b) the fact that it wasn't desk bound. I mean, there would be occasions when I'd come into the office, I'd have my day planned, I'd open the first file and I'd go home at five o'clock and that file would still be open on my desk,
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and I wouldn't have looked at it all day. [Roslyn] It's a very different version of retirement? and I wouldn't have looked at it all day. [Roslyn] It's a very different version of retirement?
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Yes, it is. But I must admit that having been retired for six months, I feel that you can't do nothing in retirement. You've got to keep your brain active. You've got to, you've got to have interests. I took on a number of of interests while I was retired, anticipating Yes, it is. But I must admit that having been retired for six months, I feel that you can't do nothing in retirement. You've got to keep your brain active. You've got to, you've got to have interests. I took on a number of of interests while I was retired, anticipating
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a longer retirement than I've had and I'm still committed to those and that's meant now that I don't have very much time at all. a longer retirement than I've had and I'm still committed to those and that's meant now that I don't have very much time at all.
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I'm now a member of the volunteer Coast Guard. I'm now a member of the volunteer Coast Guard.
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Now I've been a member of the Australian Air League for 15 years. I'm in charge of Epping Squadron for that. Now I've been a member of the Australian Air League for 15 years. I'm in charge of Epping Squadron for that.
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The Australian Air League teaches boys from 8 years of age and upwards, everything to do with aviation and aeronautics. We own four aircraft out at Camden and we teach the boys to fly. The Australian Air League teaches boys from 8 years of age and upwards, everything to do with aviation and aeronautics. We own four aircraft out at Camden and we teach the boys to fly.
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We, I've had two of my students who have been able to fly solo before they could get their car license. We, I've had two of my students who have been able to fly solo before they could get their car license.
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[Roslyn] [indecipherable] Your interests take you away from Strathfield. What prompted your interest in that ? [Paul] I've always been interested in aviation. I don't have a pilot's license, but I used to enjoy building plastic models and I've got [Roslyn] [indecipherable] Your interests take you away from Strathfield. What prompted your interest in that ? [Paul] I've always been interested in aviation. I don't have a pilot's license, but I used to enjoy building plastic models and I've got
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a very extensive collection of those, and they're very useful for a very extensive collection of those, and they're very useful for
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demonstrating the development of aircraft and showing boys how the aircraft developed and why. demonstrating the development of aircraft and showing boys how the aircraft developed and why.
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The studies that they do and that, we have athletics carnivals and swimming carnivals and The studies that they do and that, we have athletics carnivals and swimming carnivals and
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marching competitions and. [Roslyn] All in the Air League? [Paul] All in the Air League. We have interstate competitions every two years where we go to another state and compete and my particular squadron in the previous five years has won the education competition five years in a row. marching competitions and. [Roslyn] All in the Air League? [Paul] All in the Air League. We have interstate competitions every two years where we go to another state and compete and my particular squadron in the previous five years has won the education competition five years in a row.
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It is. We have, we meet every Friday evening between 7:30 and 9:30 at Epping West Public School, and we also have activities over the weekend. We might have a camp or It is. We have, we meet every Friday evening between 7:30 and 9:30 at Epping West Public School, and we also have activities over the weekend. We might have a camp or
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I think as I said, it's really a carnival. We have training camps, we have officer advancements and promotions and so on. And I'm also on the Wing Council of the, of the Air League. The League is divided into into wings so that a number of squadrons make up a wing, and we meet monthly and decide what we're doing for the next month and all those sorts of things. And we've tried to promote the Air League as best we can with our limited funds because we're not supported at all by any organization. I think as I said, it's really a carnival. We have training camps, we have officer advancements and promotions and so on. And I'm also on the Wing Council of the, of the Air League. The League is divided into into wings so that a number of squadrons make up a wing, and we meet monthly and decide what we're doing for the next month and all those sorts of things. And we've tried to promote the Air League as best we can with our limited funds because we're not supported at all by any organization.
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And oh yes, it shows, it gives me an interest, but that means I've got now one room sort of dedicated to Air League and another room dedicated to Coast Guard. And oh yes, it shows, it gives me an interest, but that means I've got now one room sort of dedicated to Air League and another room dedicated to Coast Guard.
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[Roslyn] You have a room dedicated to the Council? [Paul] No, no, only the one that they provide me at the office. [Roslyn] So that particular detail, attention to detail that you bring in your model-making say, and your work here at the Council, it must be a boon for Council to have a part-time staff member, as you are part time in these different roles, with your background and your extensive background over many years? [Roslyn] You have a room dedicated to the Council? [Paul] No, no, only the one that they provide me at the office. [Roslyn] So that particular detail, attention to detail that you bring in your model-making say, and your work here at the Council, it must be a boon for Council to have a part-time staff member, as you are part time in these different roles, with your background and your extensive background over many years?
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Yes, and it's drawn on to a considerable on a considerable amount of time, at times, because a problem will crop up and whilst the the there's a number of these things on file, Yes, and it's drawn on to a considerable on a considerable amount of time, at times, because a problem will crop up and whilst the the there's a number of these things on file,
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the background behind the file notes aren't known and if somebody wants to know, you know, what happened here or why did they decide in this form, then I can give them the information. the background behind the file notes aren't known and if somebody wants to know, you know, what happened here or why did they decide in this form, then I can give them the information.
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[Roslyn] I think we forget ultimately the human resource is of great value rather than just the file. [Paul] Oh yes, I think that's probably correct and unfortunately [Roslyn] I think we forget ultimately the human resource is of great value rather than just the file. [Paul] Oh yes, I think that's probably correct and unfortunately
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we lost a lot of expertise in the restructure when a lot of the senior staff that was with Council were either made redundant or sought other employment elsewhere because there was a tremendous amount of resources that that just walked out the door. we lost a lot of expertise in the restructure when a lot of the senior staff that was with Council were either made redundant or sought other employment elsewhere because there was a tremendous amount of resources that that just walked out the door.
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Does that change the character of the Council, the body of council staff? Does that change the character of the Council, the body of council staff?
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It's meant, I think, that in some instances it's taken longer to do the same job because when you have that expertise and that knowledge then It's meant, I think, that in some instances it's taken longer to do the same job because when you have that expertise and that knowledge then
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those in the position can those in the position can
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operate more efficiently. operate more efficiently.
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I mean, for myself, for instance, somebody mentions an address and I can picture the street and I can picture the house, whereas somebody turns up new, then you've got to give them a map and it takes them about six months to work out where the streets are. And they they're not, they don't move efficiently through the Municipality, if they're looking for a particular premises and those sorts of things. [Roslyn] Is that frustrating to you? I mean, for myself, for instance, somebody mentions an address and I can picture the street and I can picture the house, whereas somebody turns up new, then you've got to give them a map and it takes them about six months to work out where the streets are. And they they're not, they don't move efficiently through the Municipality, if they're looking for a particular premises and those sorts of things. [Roslyn] Is that frustrating to you?
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Not personally, no. I think it's it's a bit of a shame from the point of view, if you've got a big turnover of staff,because you're not really getting efficient use of your staff. Not personally, no. I think it's it's a bit of a shame from the point of view, if you've got a big turnover of staff,because you're not really getting efficient use of your staff.
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And some of the staff that that we have are are very efficient but And some of the staff that that we have are are very efficient but
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as I say, the turnover can be a bit of a problem. as I say, the turnover can be a bit of a problem.
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What about your experience, What about your experience,
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the years you've worked in your career here? [Paul] Yes, planning, health and building. the years you've worked in your career here? [Paul] Yes, planning, health and building.
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The building side of it, of course, is a follow on from the planning side. The building side of it, of course, is a follow on from the planning side.
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But they're the three main areas where the population becomes involved, although the community becomes involved. But they're the three main areas where the population becomes involved, although the community becomes involved.
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Over the period of time Over the period of time
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community involvement, of course, has become much more community involvement, of course, has become much more
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important. Because in the old days when you submitted a building application, Council considered it on its merits and just approved it, or disapproved it, or had it modified. There was no notification to surrounding residents. There was no necessity to involve other departments or other other other areas. And whilst it was probably more efficient from the point of view of processing the application and the resident could know that, you know, they could lodge an application in a week's time or two weeks' time, they'd get a consent or important. Because in the old days when you submitted a building application, Council considered it on its merits and just approved it, or disapproved it, or had it modified. There was no notification to surrounding residents. There was no necessity to involve other departments or other other other areas. And whilst it was probably more efficient from the point of view of processing the application and the resident could know that, you know, they could lodge an application in a week's time or two weeks' time, they'd get a consent or
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or a refusal, or a refusal,
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now it's got to be on exhibition, for instance, for two weeks to start with. It's got to be referred to other departments, whether it be the Water Board or the Electricity Commission or whatever. now it's got to be on exhibition, for instance, for two weeks to start with. It's got to be referred to other departments, whether it be the Water Board or the Electricity Commission or whatever.
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And when somebody lodges an objection and that objection has to be dealt with, it has to be either a modification of the plan or you have to have a conciliation meeting between the objectors and the and the Council and the people who lodge the application and people's expectations of being able to And when somebody lodges an objection and that objection has to be dealt with, it has to be either a modification of the plan or you have to have a conciliation meeting between the objectors and the and the Council and the people who lodge the application and people's expectations of being able to
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change, if you like, a design of a building that's being built beside them because it's either adversely affecting their privacy or looking into their side windows, change, if you like, a design of a building that's being built beside them because it's either adversely affecting their privacy or looking into their side windows,
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is very high and it becomes a very protracted exercise to try and get somebody to move a window out of a wall because it might overlook somebody's room next door or somebody's swimming pool or somebody's backyard or whatever. is very high and it becomes a very protracted exercise to try and get somebody to move a window out of a wall because it might overlook somebody's room next door or somebody's swimming pool or somebody's backyard or whatever.
17:24

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Skills in diplomacy? Skills in diplomacy?
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Yes, it can be fairly well, fairly exasperating on occasions because once you get to a stage where Yes, it can be fairly well, fairly exasperating on occasions because once you get to a stage where
17:34

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both parties dig their heels and says no, I'm not going to change and the other blokes says no, I'm not going to change either, well then Council has to make a decision and say all right, you will change or you won't change. You can't satisfy everybody all the time and both parties dig their heels and says no, I'm not going to change and the other blokes says no, I'm not going to change either, well then Council has to make a decision and say all right, you will change or you won't change. You can't satisfy everybody all the time and
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it can be very rewarding when when you achieve a satisfactory solution for everybody and very frustrating when you can't. it can be very rewarding when when you achieve a satisfactory solution for everybody and very frustrating when you can't.
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And of course you not only have the aspirations, if you like, of the applicant and the objector, but you've also got to then deal with the political situation of the Council at the time, who may also have an input into whether or not an application has refused or not. And of course you not only have the aspirations, if you like, of the applicant and the objector, but you've also got to then deal with the political situation of the Council at the time, who may also have an input into whether or not an application has refused or not.
18:17

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And it can become quite complex. And it can become quite complex.
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[Roslyn] Do you think politics should be out of local government? [Paul] I think it should, but I I don't know how you would keep it out, to be quite truthful. [Roslyn] Do you think politics should be out of local government? [Paul] I think it should, but I I don't know how you would keep it out, to be quite truthful.
18:29

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In the early days In the early days
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they said there was no politics in local government, but there was. But it was very much behind the scenes and it wasn't as as they said there was no politics in local government, but there was. But it was very much behind the scenes and it wasn't as as
18:41

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politically, politically,
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what's the word I'm looking for? what's the word I'm looking for?
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It it wasn't as noticeable it is as it is now. In the old days, people didn't stand as being a member of a particular party It it wasn't as noticeable it is as it is now. In the old days, people didn't stand as being a member of a particular party
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in local government, whereas now they do. in local government, whereas now they do.
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Their political affiliations were secondary to the fact that they wanted to serve the community to the best of their ability. Their political affiliations were secondary to the fact that they wanted to serve the community to the best of their ability.
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[Roslyn] Is that wish to serve the community still evident, though amongst those people who have overt political allegiances? [Paul] It's, it is and it's not, I think, people, [Roslyn] Is that wish to serve the community still evident, though amongst those people who have overt political allegiances? [Paul] It's, it is and it's not, I think, people,
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some some people some some people
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want to be on Council because they feel that they can be of assistance to the to the Municipality and they have a vision and a view of what the municipality should be. They object to having their neck of the woods, if you like, modified by developers and wish to have some say in that. want to be on Council because they feel that they can be of assistance to the to the Municipality and they have a vision and a view of what the municipality should be. They object to having their neck of the woods, if you like, modified by developers and wish to have some say in that.
19:41

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There are some who take political office in local government as a stepping stone There are some who take political office in local government as a stepping stone
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to higher political objectives. to higher political objectives.
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Pardon me. And that's all well and good, Pardon me. And that's all well and good,
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providing it doesn't providing it doesn't
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override the override the
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objectives of really what they're there for, which is for the good of the community. objectives of really what they're there for, which is for the good of the community.
20:03

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Has that happened in Strathfield? Has that happened in Strathfield?
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There have been instances where certain individuals have There have been instances where certain individuals have
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used Council as a stepping stone and used Council as a stepping stone and
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I don't know that it's been to the Council's advantage. I don't know that it's been to the Council's advantage.
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[Roslyn] Paul, just going backwards a little bit, when we first met, you talked about your family living in Shortland Street when you were born, and then you moved when you were five? [Paul] Yes, we moved to Shortland Avenue, to Myrna Road rather, corner of Myrna Road and Ada Avenue. [Roslyn] Paul, just going backwards a little bit, when we first met, you talked about your family living in Shortland Street when you were born, and then you moved when you were five? [Paul] Yes, we moved to Shortland Avenue, to Myrna Road rather, corner of Myrna Road and Ada Avenue.
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[Roslyn] When? [Paul] That I don't know, to be quite truthful, it was just after the war, 1948. [Roslyn] When? [Paul] That I don't know, to be quite truthful, it was just after the war, 1948.
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[Roslyn] Was your family renting all there? [Paul] No, Dad was a dentist and he owned a property in Shortland Avenue. [Roslyn] Was your family renting all there? [Paul] No, Dad was a dentist and he owned a property in Shortland Avenue.
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Umm, but I'm not sure whether or not, umm, they felt that the property at Strathfield was more modern for the want of a better word. The property that we were living in in Shortland Avenue was a Federation style sort of place, a very modest Federation place, but.  [Roslyn] Do you remember it? Umm, but I'm not sure whether or not, umm, they felt that the property at Strathfield was more modern for the want of a better word. The property that we were living in in Shortland Avenue was a Federation style sort of place, a very modest Federation place, but.  [Roslyn] Do you remember it?
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Yes, the property is still there. It's about four down now from the corner of Dixon Street. It Yes, the property is still there. It's about four down now from the corner of Dixon Street. It
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had beside it an old place which we used to refer to as Granny Larkin's place, had beside it an old place which we used to refer to as Granny Larkin's place,
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which was a big bungalow style place with full width veranda on three sides. And which was a big bungalow style place with full width veranda on three sides. And
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we used to climb through the fence and wander around the property because it was ultimately pulled down and subdivided into two blocks of land. And there was another very large old place which is still there just across the road from us. we used to climb through the fence and wander around the property because it was ultimately pulled down and subdivided into two blocks of land. And there was another very large old place which is still there just across the road from us.
21:51

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And that was built like a castle or we thought it was anyway in those days. But when we moved to Myrna Road And that was built like a castle or we thought it was anyway in those days. But when we moved to Myrna Road
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we had a number of adventures for want of a better word. We remember, I can remember we on one occasion we had a number of adventures for want of a better word. We remember, I can remember we on one occasion
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my mother tells that there used to be a stable down the road where all the horses used to be stored for both the milkman and the baker. The baker used to come around with a horse and sulky, and he'd have all the fresh bread in the back and he'd come to the front veranda with this big basket with a leather strap, with a leather apron over the top of it. And he'd throw back the leather apron and there'd be all this beautifully smelling bread. We used to cut the end off it and eat the crust and then pull the middle out of it and eat all the soft middle. And when Mum came to slice the bread there, all there was, was. my mother tells that there used to be a stable down the road where all the horses used to be stored for both the milkman and the baker. The baker used to come around with a horse and sulky, and he'd have all the fresh bread in the back and he'd come to the front veranda with this big basket with a leather strap, with a leather apron over the top of it. And he'd throw back the leather apron and there'd be all this beautifully smelling bread. We used to cut the end off it and eat the crust and then pull the middle out of it and eat all the soft middle. And when Mum came to slice the bread there, all there was, was.
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A empty crust for the rest of it. A empty crust for the rest of it.
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Yeah, very impressed! And I can still remember too that the, we used to leave the back door open for the iceman to get in and the iceman would come in and put in a block of ice in, in the old ice chest. Yeah, very impressed! And I can still remember too that the, we used to leave the back door open for the iceman to get in and the iceman would come in and put in a block of ice in, in the old ice chest.
22:59

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Yeah. Yeah.
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It's not hundreds of years ago. Although other people might think it was. [Roslyn] Did you have neighbours on each side of you? [Paul] No, we didn't have a neighbour that I can recall. There was a neighbour across the road. It's not hundreds of years ago. Although other people might think it was. [Roslyn] Did you have neighbours on each side of you? [Paul] No, we didn't have a neighbour that I can recall. There was a neighbour across the road.
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But I can't remember one on the other side. I'd have to check on that. Memory is not too good when you're only five years old. But I can't remember one on the other side. I'd have to check on that. Memory is not too good when you're only five years old.
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[Roslyn] Have you lived there for a long time? [Paul] We lived there from when we moved in there until I actually got married and moved in the '70s. [Roslyn] Have you lived there for a long time? [Paul] We lived there from when we moved in there until I actually got married and moved in the '70s.
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But um, the and mum and dad subsequently sold that place and moved moved north. But I can remember when they were building the road in Myrna Road. They had a truck which had a metal frame on the back of it and of course there was no mechanical tools in those days. But it also had a, like a slippery dip at the back of the truck and a cable arrangement off this superstructure in the in the cab, in in the tray of the truck and that would be run up to like a wheelbarrow type arrangement which was a scoop and But um, the and mum and dad subsequently sold that place and moved moved north. But I can remember when they were building the road in Myrna Road. They had a truck which had a metal frame on the back of it and of course there was no mechanical tools in those days. But it also had a, like a slippery dip at the back of the truck and a cable arrangement off this superstructure in the in the cab, in in the tray of the truck and that would be run up to like a wheelbarrow type arrangement which was a scoop and
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they roll in the cable and two men would handle this scoop and scrape it along the road and then up the ramp and then it automatically tip into the back of the truck. they roll in the cable and two men would handle this scoop and scrape it along the road and then up the ramp and then it automatically tip into the back of the truck.
24:20

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But, and I can remember in the early days with the garbage collection whilst we did have But, and I can remember in the early days with the garbage collection whilst we did have
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the first fully compacted garbage collection in the early days, the first fully compacted garbage collection in the early days,
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we had we had
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a, open style garbage collection where the garbage bins were actually just thrown up on the back of an open truck and there'd be two men on the back of the truck and they'd be stomping the garbage down to as flat as they could get it so they could get as much garbage into the back of the open truck. And the other thing I remember too was when I first started here in 1965, we in fact still had a sanitary contractor a, open style garbage collection where the garbage bins were actually just thrown up on the back of an open truck and there'd be two men on the back of the truck and they'd be stomping the garbage down to as flat as they could get it so they could get as much garbage into the back of the open truck. And the other thing I remember too was when I first started here in 1965, we in fact still had a sanitary contractor
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who had delivered sanitary pans to mainly building sites, because they didn't have a connection to the sewer, and that was Jim Hurst and he used to come in every morning who had delivered sanitary pans to mainly building sites, because they didn't have a connection to the sewer, and that was Jim Hurst and he used to come in every morning
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of a Monday to get a list of the new building approvals that we granted so that he could arrange to get the garbage the the sanitary service to the to the building sites. And we always used to get complaints fairly regularly of these structures having been pushed over by kids during of a Monday to get a list of the new building approvals that we granted so that he could arrange to get the garbage the the sanitary service to the to the building sites. And we always used to get complaints fairly regularly of these structures having been pushed over by kids during
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during the building works and of course they all have to be tidied up, so. during the building works and of course they all have to be tidied up, so.
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We didn't do it, we just had to order it to be done. [Roslyn] Did you do that sort of work as well? [Paul] No, no, that was the responsibility of the builder. We didn't do it, we just had to order it to be done. [Roslyn] Did you do that sort of work as well? [Paul] No, no, that was the responsibility of the builder.
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But I would imagine most of it was just pushed into an open hole, so. [Roslyn] There can't have been much vandalism in Strathfield at that time? [Paul] Very little. I can never recall vandalism as such until much later. You know, when they started scrawling on walls and throwing rocks through windows. There was the occasional building site which was vandalised, but only to a minor extent. There'd be a couple of windows broken here or there, but as time progressed there were factory buildings that were being built But I would imagine most of it was just pushed into an open hole, so. [Roslyn] There can't have been much vandalism in Strathfield at that time? [Paul] Very little. I can never recall vandalism as such until much later. You know, when they started scrawling on walls and throwing rocks through windows. There was the occasional building site which was vandalised, but only to a minor extent. There'd be a couple of windows broken here or there, but as time progressed there were factory buildings that were being built
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in besser blocks in, you know, concrete blocks where vandals would pick up a rod of reinforcing steel and punch a hole through every brick in the wall, and the whole wall had to be demolished and rebuilt. in besser blocks in, you know, concrete blocks where vandals would pick up a rod of reinforcing steel and punch a hole through every brick in the wall, and the whole wall had to be demolished and rebuilt.
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Right. Yeah, absolutely. But you know. Right. Yeah, absolutely. But you know.
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[Roslyn] When you were growing up in the street, not when you were five, as you got a bit older, were there children in this other children in the street who you could play with or got to know? [Paul] Yes, there were. Further towards the top end we got to know quite a number of the boys, because they always went to Homebush High school or most of them did. Homebush High School in those days was a selective school. [Roslyn] When you were growing up in the street, not when you were five, as you got a bit older, were there children in this other children in the street who you could play with or got to know? [Paul] Yes, there were. Further towards the top end we got to know quite a number of the boys, because they always went to Homebush High school or most of them did. Homebush High School in those days was a selective school.
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Most of the boys that we had anything to do with went to Homebush Boys High School. Most of the boys that we had anything to do with went to Homebush Boys High School.
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And a lot of them lived in Myrna Rd. They weren't too many houses in Bareena Street at that stage, and we used to play together, particularly with the boys. I can't think of their names now. Isn't that amazing? And a lot of them lived in Myrna Rd. They weren't too many houses in Bareena Street at that stage, and we used to play together, particularly with the boys. I can't think of their names now. Isn't that amazing?
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But they lived halfway up the street between Myrna Road between Ada Avenue and Newton Road on the eastern side and a big two storey house. It was one of the first two storey houses in in Myrna Road. But they lived halfway up the street between Myrna Road between Ada Avenue and Newton Road on the eastern side and a big two storey house. It was one of the first two storey houses in in Myrna Road.
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[Roslyn] Just to ask, were there many Sri Lankans or Tamils? [Paul] None whatsoever. No, not not in those days. [Roslyn] Just to ask, were there many Sri Lankans or Tamils? [Paul] None whatsoever. No, not not in those days.
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You would stop and stare at somebody who wasn't You would stop and stare at somebody who wasn't
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an Australian, for want of a better word, or of Australian appearance anyway, in the early days because there just weren't any around. an Australian, for want of a better word, or of Australian appearance anyway, in the early days because there just weren't any around.
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[Roslyn] When your father left home, I presume he went to work by train? [Paul] Yes, Dad used to get the train. I can remember we used to walk up to South Street where the train, where the bus station was, where the bus stop was rather, and it used to cost a ha'penny to go from there to Homebush Primary School. And we were going to primary school on the big double-decker bus with Leyland written across the top of the metal cover over the transmission at the back of the driver's cabin. [Roslyn] When your father left home, I presume he went to work by train? [Paul] Yes, Dad used to get the train. I can remember we used to walk up to South Street where the train, where the bus station was, where the bus stop was rather, and it used to cost a ha'penny to go from there to Homebush Primary School. And we were going to primary school on the big double-decker bus with Leyland written across the top of the metal cover over the transmission at the back of the driver's cabin.
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And. And.
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No, not necessarily, no. I used to actually sit downstairs behind the driver and watch through the little sliding window as he was driving the bus to school. No, not necessarily, no. I used to actually sit downstairs behind the driver and watch through the little sliding window as he was driving the bus to school.
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And then the fares went up to a penny. And then the fares went up to a penny.
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And on some occasions Mum used to drive us to school. But whilst Mum could drive, she didn't have a great mechanical And on some occasions Mum used to drive us to school. But whilst Mum could drive, she didn't have a great mechanical
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appreciation of the motor vehicle and she drove us to school one morning with this terrible knocking noise in the engine, which turned out to be a loose piston, but she drove it all the way to school and all the way home again and told Dad it was making a terrible noise. appreciation of the motor vehicle and she drove us to school one morning with this terrible knocking noise in the engine, which turned out to be a loose piston, but she drove it all the way to school and all the way home again and told Dad it was making a terrible noise.
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And anyway. And anyway.
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Your father would never have thought of driving a car to work? Your father would never have thought of driving a car to work?
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No, No,
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Dad worked in the city in George Street, so I don't know that that was an option anyway. And also when he was a boy at 13, he got hit in the knee with a cricket ball and smashed his kneecap and as a result of that he wound up with osteomyelitis and of course there was no antibiotics in those days. Dad worked in the city in George Street, so I don't know that that was an option anyway. And also when he was a boy at 13, he got hit in the knee with a cricket ball and smashed his kneecap and as a result of that he wound up with osteomyelitis and of course there was no antibiotics in those days.
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And the whole of the knee joint just ossified and he had a stiff leg then for the rest of his life. And the whole of the knee joint just ossified and he had a stiff leg then for the rest of his life.
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He was in hospital for nine months in traction and he said that the pieces of the kneecap worked their way out through the skin while he was in there. He was in hospital for nine months in traction and he said that the pieces of the kneecap worked their way out through the skin while he was in there.
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And they, as I said, had no cure for it. So he always had to have any car that he drove then modified. We had an old Hillman. And they, as I said, had no cure for it. So he always had to have any car that he drove then modified. We had an old Hillman.
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And he had a hand throttle put on that so that he would, could control the speed and change gear with his other foot. And he had a hand throttle put on that so that he would, could control the speed and change gear with his other foot.
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So we got more modern cars. He was able to have a, an adjustment put on the clutch so that he could clutch and brake with his left foot, sorry, with his right foot and and use the hand accelerator. But in the old days of course it was even more exciting because you had to give hand signals as well. So he had to use both hands and try and give a hand signal. And how he did it, I don't know, that was. So we got more modern cars. He was able to have a, an adjustment put on the clutch so that he could clutch and brake with his left foot, sorry, with his right foot and and use the hand accelerator. But in the old days of course it was even more exciting because you had to give hand signals as well. So he had to use both hands and try and give a hand signal. And how he did it, I don't know, that was.
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Yes, he was. He spent nearly the whole of his working days on his feet. And how he didn't wind up with a back problem, I don't know, because in those days the dental chairs were designed to, for the comfort of the patient, not for the comfort of the dentist. Yes, he was. He spent nearly the whole of his working days on his feet. And how he didn't wind up with a back problem, I don't know, because in those days the dental chairs were designed to, for the comfort of the patient, not for the comfort of the dentist.
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And he was very tall, he was 6 foot two. So he. And he was very tall, he was 6 foot two. So he.
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He didn't seem to have a back problem. He did however, have problems with dermatitis on his hands because he used to mix the amalgam in his hands, which was mercury and zinc, in bare hands. And they of course they weren't, didn't realize the problems and he also developed He didn't seem to have a back problem. He did however, have problems with dermatitis on his hands because he used to mix the amalgam in his hands, which was mercury and zinc, in bare hands. And they of course they weren't, didn't realize the problems and he also developed
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an allergy to the chrome on the instruments that he was using, so he had to then from there on use rubber gloves or latex gloves. an allergy to the chrome on the instruments that he was using, so he had to then from there on use rubber gloves or latex gloves.
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Which weren't always easy to operate in in those days because they weren't designed with the fine standards that they are today. Which weren't always easy to operate in in those days because they weren't designed with the fine standards that they are today.
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That's right. That was long before the days of AIDS and all those sorts of things. That's right. That was long before the days of AIDS and all those sorts of things.
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Paul, in one of your earlier tapes you just described Myrna Street, and I wonder if you could just give me a picture of that. Just a small word picture. Paul, in one of your earlier tapes you just described Myrna Street, and I wonder if you could just give me a picture of that. Just a small word picture.
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Myrna Road was, probably best to describe was on the edge of the bush. Myrna Road was, probably best to describe was on the edge of the bush.
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There was basically only tea tree scrub between we were and the railway line which was in There was basically only tea tree scrub between we were and the railway line which was in
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And Liverpool Road, which was within, but it was basically only, if I can remember, a two-lane road, one in either direction. And Liverpool Road, which was within, but it was basically only, if I can remember, a two-lane road, one in either direction.
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Myrna Road to the best of my knowledge wasn't sealed. Ada Avenue was in and that wasn't sealed either. There was no curb and guttering. There was only footpath between our house and the house next door and there was no footpath from there down to the the creek which was down the bottom of the hill where the golf course was. Myrna Road to the best of my knowledge wasn't sealed. Ada Avenue was in and that wasn't sealed either. There was no curb and guttering. There was only footpath between our house and the house next door and there was no footpath from there down to the the creek which was down the bottom of the hill where the golf course was.
32:34

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Oh, here, too right. We used to go down there once the golf course was in. We used to go down there and fish around in the creek for golf balls, which was rather successful. And we'd go down and catch the yabbies and there'd be rabbits and things down there. Oh, here, too right. We used to go down there once the golf course was in. We used to go down there and fish around in the creek for golf balls, which was rather successful. And we'd go down and catch the yabbies and there'd be rabbits and things down there.
32:53

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We'd either bring them home and use them for cricket practice or We'd either bring them home and use them for cricket practice or
32:59

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as we got older, we used them ourselves when we played golf. But as we got older, we used them ourselves when we played golf. But
33:03

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that's much later. But just down the road from where we were, as I was mentioning earlier, there was a horse stable, and my mother recounts the tale of my brother by standing out in the middle of Myrna Road. And all the horses got out of the horse stable and stampeded up Myrna Road, and all she could do was stand on the veranda and watch as all these horses stampeded past my brother, who was about three or four years old, standing in the middle of the road. that's much later. But just down the road from where we were, as I was mentioning earlier, there was a horse stable, and my mother recounts the tale of my brother by standing out in the middle of Myrna Road. And all the horses got out of the horse stable and stampeded up Myrna Road, and all she could do was stand on the veranda and watch as all these horses stampeded past my brother, who was about three or four years old, standing in the middle of the road.
33:31

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Yeah, so he just sort of watched all the horses go past and that was the end of it. Yeah, so he just sort of watched all the horses go past and that was the end of it.
33:38

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Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
33:43

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[Paul] Yes. [Roslyn] Before we leave the sort of history of the area, I just wanted to remind you that you mentioned Harry Crossan? [Paul] Yes. [Roslyn] Before we leave the sort of history of the area, I just wanted to remind you that you mentioned Harry Crossan?
33:52

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Can you just tell me about that? [Paul] Well, Harry Crossan senior was. I went to school with Harry Crossan junior well, my brother actually was in his class. But my brother was a year behind me. Can you just tell me about that? [Paul] Well, Harry Crossan senior was. I went to school with Harry Crossan junior well, my brother actually was in his class. But my brother was a year behind me.
34:02

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And we played cricket after school with Harry and Harry was quite a good cricketer. In fact he was quite a good all around athlete. And I got to know Harry Crossan senior because Stanford Engineering, which is the engineering works that he owned, did a lot of repairs for the abattoir trade and made boilers and And we played cricket after school with Harry and Harry was quite a good cricketer. In fact he was quite a good all around athlete. And I got to know Harry Crossan senior because Stanford Engineering, which is the engineering works that he owned, did a lot of repairs for the abattoir trade and made boilers and
34:26

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killing chains and all those sorts of things. killing chains and all those sorts of things.
34:28

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And before he moved up to the end of Arthur Street he had a engineering works in Liverpool Road which was down beside the Lion and Tile Brick Company. And before he moved up to the end of Arthur Street he had a engineering works in Liverpool Road which was down beside the Lion and Tile Brick Company.
34:43

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But he was telling me that when he moved into Arthur Street, excuse me, that there used to be rifle butts in what is now the Oval at Mitchell Road. And that was even before the railway line went through, and they used to fire from But he was telling me that when he moved into Arthur Street, excuse me, that there used to be rifle butts in what is now the Oval at Mitchell Road. And that was even before the railway line went through, and they used to fire from
34:58

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basically the intersection of Mitchell Road and Arthur Street back in towards the cemetery and after any heavy rain they, the boys used to go over there and get the lead out of the rifle butts where they'd been embedded into, the behind the targets and then they'd sell the lead. basically the intersection of Mitchell Road and Arthur Street back in towards the cemetery and after any heavy rain they, the boys used to go over there and get the lead out of the rifle butts where they'd been embedded into, the behind the targets and then they'd sell the lead.
35:19

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And they also used to trap rabbits in Hudson Park because that was all partly swamp and there was a lot of scrub and so on in through there. And they also used to trap rabbits in Hudson Park because that was all partly swamp and there was a lot of scrub and so on in through there.
35:29

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So they used to go hunting down and through there. So they used to go hunting down and through there.
35:33

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[Roslyn] You also mentioned it would be nice to have this on tape that Harry Crossan tell you about the impact of the plague. [Paul] Yes, he was saying, where he was at the top end of Arthur Street was near an access into the cemetery. [Roslyn] You also mentioned it would be nice to have this on tape that Harry Crossan tell you about the impact of the plague. [Paul] Yes, he was saying, where he was at the top end of Arthur Street was near an access into the cemetery.
35:47

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And he was saying that during the plague there was nose to tail, horse drawn And he was saying that during the plague there was nose to tail, horse drawn
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hearses coming up Arthur Street and turning into the cemetery for days and days and days and he sort of waved his arm across the cemetery. He said, well, from there to there was filled, he said, in about 6 months. hearses coming up Arthur Street and turning into the cemetery for days and days and days and he sort of waved his arm across the cemetery. He said, well, from there to there was filled, he said, in about 6 months.
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No, no, that's right. No, no, that's right.
36:17

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Yeah. Yeah.
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[Roslyn] Paul, just moving forward again with tape, we were just thinking on tape about how Strathfield is dissected by so many major roads and transport routes. [Paul] Yes, we do have [Roslyn] Paul, just moving forward again with tape, we were just thinking on tape about how Strathfield is dissected by so many major roads and transport routes. [Paul] Yes, we do have
36:36

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the major east-west the major east-west
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thoroughfares of Liverpool Road and Parramatta Road running through the municipality and we we're bisected north and south by the Boulevarde and and Coronation Parade and Centenary Drive, now on Roberts Road. thoroughfares of Liverpool Road and Parramatta Road running through the municipality and we we're bisected north and south by the Boulevarde and and Coronation Parade and Centenary Drive, now on Roberts Road.
36:55

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And as you were saying, the character of Strathfield hasn't changed significantly over that period of time, despite all the major influences that have attempted to act on it. And I think it's because of the fact that unless you have business in Strathfield, it's so well served by these surrounding roads that you have no need to sort of come into it. And as you were saying, the character of Strathfield hasn't changed significantly over that period of time, despite all the major influences that have attempted to act on it. And I think it's because of the fact that unless you have business in Strathfield, it's so well served by these surrounding roads that you have no need to sort of come into it.
37:18

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And people that have moved into the area have moved into it because of its character and the type of buildings that are in it and its proximity to public transport. I mean, you get on the train at Strathfield and you're in the city in quarter of an hour. And people that have moved into the area have moved into it because of its character and the type of buildings that are in it and its proximity to public transport. I mean, you get on the train at Strathfield and you're in the city in quarter of an hour.
37:35

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And that's one of the reasons why Strathfield is probably one of the most, the busiest suburban stations in the network. And that's one of the reasons why Strathfield is probably one of the most, the busiest suburban stations in the network.
37:43

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And it's been the Council's objective is to try and maintain this character as best they can, And it's been the Council's objective is to try and maintain this character as best they can,
37:51

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despite influences from State government that they've got to consolidate their developments and those sorts of things, and it's only in the fairly recent times that the major high rise buildings have started to predominate, particularly around the nodes of the transport. But despite influences from State government that they've got to consolidate their developments and those sorts of things, and it's only in the fairly recent times that the major high rise buildings have started to predominate, particularly around the nodes of the transport. But
38:13

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the area itself, it's had its attacks for want of a better word, of different styles of buildings. We've had, there's always been the attempt to over-develop sites the area itself, it's had its attacks for want of a better word, of different styles of buildings. We've had, there's always been the attempt to over-develop sites
38:27

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by single dwellings, but there've been the styles. We've had the column styles and we've had the arch styles and we've had the the rendered styles, and these tended to be influenced to a large extent by people from overseas moving into the area who wanted to import for want of a better word by single dwellings, but there've been the styles. We've had the column styles and we've had the arch styles and we've had the the rendered styles, and these tended to be influenced to a large extent by people from overseas moving into the area who wanted to import for want of a better word
38:46

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the style of building to which they've basically been accustomed to. the style of building to which they've basically been accustomed to.
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Originally, and as a result of that, the old Australian style for want of a better description or the English style have tended to be superseded. But where those buildings and the Federation styles of buildings have now been Originally, and as a result of that, the old Australian style for want of a better description or the English style have tended to be superseded. But where those buildings and the Federation styles of buildings have now been
39:12

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determined and acknowledged and they they have now preserved as part of those determined and acknowledged and they they have now preserved as part of those
39:17

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heritage areas and heritage listings. heritage areas and heritage listings.
39:21

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And any building that's now built in close proximity to them must take cognisance of the fact that they are in close proximity to heritage building. And they can't be too far removed, if you like, from that particular style, either in colour or design or size or shape. And I think that's all to the better. And any building that's now built in close proximity to them must take cognisance of the fact that they are in close proximity to heritage building. And they can't be too far removed, if you like, from that particular style, either in colour or design or size or shape. And I think that's all to the better.
39:43

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But it's not necessarily easy to do. But it's not necessarily easy to do.
39:51

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[Roslyn] I wonder if we could perhaps look at this list of Mayors...[indecipherable] [Paul] Yes, well, I I came into the list, if you like, in 1965, when Harvey Ford was the Mayor. Harvey was a solicitor and he [Roslyn] I wonder if we could perhaps look at this list of Mayors...[indecipherable] [Paul] Yes, well, I I came into the list, if you like, in 1965, when Harvey Ford was the Mayor. Harvey was a solicitor and he
40:09

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yeah, he was very dour, I suppose or want of a better description. He he yeah, he was very dour, I suppose or want of a better description. He he
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was was
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very straight laced and very much the old style of Mayor. And in those days of course the Mayors were were gods that you know we looked up to and lived in fear of. And when I first started here one of the requirements was that I had to combine my first and second year study in one year so that I could be qualified very straight laced and very much the old style of Mayor. And in those days of course the Mayors were were gods that you know we looked up to and lived in fear of. And when I first started here one of the requirements was that I had to combine my first and second year study in one year so that I could be qualified
40:43

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earlier and I was fortunate enough to be able to get some exemptions in the subjects that I had to do, and at five nights a week I was able to do the full two years in one year so. earlier and I was fortunate enough to be able to get some exemptions in the subjects that I had to do, and at five nights a week I was able to do the full two years in one year so.
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But no, Harvey was was But no, Harvey was was
40:60

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was very much a, very much a solicitor, if you'd like, for want of a better word from the Council's point of view. was very much a, very much a solicitor, if you'd like, for want of a better word from the Council's point of view.
41:08

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Freddie Cartwright, Freddie was a, I think Freddie was a plumber, from memory. He lived over in Cartwright Avenue. Actually Cartwright Avenue was named after him. Freddie Cartwright, Freddie was a, I think Freddie was a plumber, from memory. He lived over in Cartwright Avenue. Actually Cartwright Avenue was named after him.
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He was He was
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a bit of a knock-about sort of chap being a plumber and a bit of a knock-about sort of chap being a plumber and
41:28

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he struck me, if you like, as being more a down to earth sort of person than than the previous Mayor, being Harvey Ford. he struck me, if you like, as being more a down to earth sort of person than than the previous Mayor, being Harvey Ford.
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And And
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he he
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could, he would get confused between the nature strip and the verge of the outside person's house. We usually referred to as the nature strip that area of lawn between the footpath and the curb, and the verge was in fact also referred to as that. But when he was discussing it in Council, he'll always refer to it as the virgin strip. could, he would get confused between the nature strip and the verge of the outside person's house. We usually referred to as the nature strip that area of lawn between the footpath and the curb, and the verge was in fact also referred to as that. But when he was discussing it in Council, he'll always refer to it as the virgin strip.
42:09

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[Roslyn] Just going back to Mr. Ford's term, Elizabeth Stirk, of course was? [Paul] Yes. Elizabeth, of course, was our first female [Eileen Stirk?] [Roslyn] Just going back to Mr. Ford's term, Elizabeth Stirk, of course was? [Paul] Yes. Elizabeth, of course, was our first female [Eileen Stirk?]
42:17

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representative. representative.
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She had, I suppose you could describe as a fairly hard time in Council being the first female and I think the thinking at the time was that local government was a little bit beyond the female brain to be able to comprehend. And She had, I suppose you could describe as a fairly hard time in Council being the first female and I think the thinking at the time was that local government was a little bit beyond the female brain to be able to comprehend. And
42:38

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as I said, she did have a fairly hard time in Council trying to get any of her messages or as I said, she did have a fairly hard time in Council trying to get any of her messages or
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proposals across. proposals across.
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Oh, she didn't take a backward step, but being up in amongst all the stalwarts, I suppose for want of a better description, they they were all sort of, I think, whether or not it was simply because she was female that they they gave her a hard time or not, I'm not sure, but I know that while she was an elected representative, they Oh, she didn't take a backward step, but being up in amongst all the stalwarts, I suppose for want of a better description, they they were all sort of, I think, whether or not it was simply because she was female that they they gave her a hard time or not, I'm not sure, but I know that while she was an elected representative, they
43:12

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they didn't make life too easy for her. they didn't make life too easy for her.
43:17

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Jim Smith. Jim Smith and a drapery. No, sorry, Jim. No, I tell a lie. It wasn't Jim Smith. It was. It was Jim Smith. Jim Smith and a drapery. No, sorry, Jim. No, I tell a lie. It wasn't Jim Smith. It was. It was
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Dutton owned the drapery down at Strathfield. No, Jim Smith, I think Jim Smith was a plumber too. Dutton owned the drapery down at Strathfield. No, Jim Smith, I think Jim Smith was a plumber too.
43:35

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The men who are plumbers to come out of Council, they've been in a great deal more plumbing. The men who are plumbers to come out of Council, they've been in a great deal more plumbing.
43:41

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I'm not sure, and I don't know that there was, that's interesting because I don't know whether if there was even an allowance in those days paid to Councillors or Alderman in those days. I know there is now, but I'm not sure whether there was in those days. I'm not sure, and I don't know that there was, that's interesting because I don't know whether if there was even an allowance in those days paid to Councillors or Alderman in those days. I know there is now, but I'm not sure whether there was in those days.
43:56

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I'm not sure what Jim's objective was, whether it was simply as as a member of a team or whether he was I'm not sure what Jim's objective was, whether it was simply as as a member of a team or whether he was
44:05

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a representative on his on his own back. a representative on his on his own back.
44:10

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Bill Boyce. Bill Boyce was a developer. Bill Boyce. Bill Boyce was a developer.
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And And
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he gave a lot of what's the word on insight, I suppose, into the developmental side of particular applications when they came in and he was more practical in in dealing with these those sorts of applications. he gave a lot of what's the word on insight, I suppose, into the developmental side of particular applications when they came in and he was more practical in in dealing with these those sorts of applications.
44:34

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I got on well with Bill because in those days I got on well with Bill because in those days
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he he
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he was quite approachable. he was quite approachable.
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And And
44:47

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they had a era of the Council from the early 70s through to probably the the 90s was probably the most stable of the of the Councils from. And when I say stable, I mean that there weren't too many new Councillors elected at each Council election, because all the old ones stood and people knew the old ones, so they were normally elected and there was only one or two new ones. they had a era of the Council from the early 70s through to probably the the 90s was probably the most stable of the of the Councils from. And when I say stable, I mean that there weren't too many new Councillors elected at each Council election, because all the old ones stood and people knew the old ones, so they were normally elected and there was only one or two new ones.
45:16

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And as a result of that, the old ones could sort of break in the new ones just to what Council's policies and attitudes were on various issues and matters. And they they were And as a result of that, the old ones could sort of break in the new ones just to what Council's policies and attitudes were on various issues and matters. And they they were
45:29

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able to maintain that that continuity. In the later periods when more Councillors when more new ones were elected and old ones standing able to maintain that that continuity. In the later periods when more Councillors when more new ones were elected and old ones standing
45:40

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that continuity tended to dissipate, and new ideas and new proposals and codes and policies were brought in. that continuity tended to dissipate, and new ideas and new proposals and codes and policies were brought in.
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Which may or may not have been advantageous to the Council from the point of view of of maintaining its integrity. They they didn't do it Which may or may not have been advantageous to the Council from the point of view of of maintaining its integrity. They they didn't do it
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deliberately to change the Municipality, they had their own ideas as to how the Municipality should be deliberately to change the Municipality, they had their own ideas as to how the Municipality should be
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heading. But it wasn't, it broke it away, if you like from the mould of the of the old state, this is Strathfield. We're not going to change and nobody's going to change us. heading. But it wasn't, it broke it away, if you like from the mould of the of the old state, this is Strathfield. We're not going to change and nobody's going to change us.
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[Roslyn] That changed really, in more recent times? [Paul] Much more in the more recent times than in the old days. But no that period, Cartwright, Smith, Boyce, up to John Elvy and Robert Kell, Eve Dutton, even Leo O'Donnell's in '94, John Elvy again up to Peter Smith. They were all fairly constant. [Roslyn] That changed really, in more recent times? [Paul] Much more in the more recent times than in the old days. But no that period, Cartwright, Smith, Boyce, up to John Elvy and Robert Kell, Eve Dutton, even Leo O'Donnell's in '94, John Elvy again up to Peter Smith. They were all fairly constant.
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And And
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and fairly conservative, for want of a better word, Councils. and fairly conservative, for want of a better word, Councils.
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Roslyn] [indecipherable] [Paul] Yes, yes, Eve was, Eve was a good Mayor while she was, while she was Mayor, she was, she was a very good Alderman or Alderperson. Roslyn] [indecipherable] [Paul] Yes, yes, Eve was, Eve was a good Mayor while she was, while she was Mayor, she was, she was a very good Alderman or Alderperson.
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She She
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was a school teacher. was a school teacher.
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But there were occasions when reports were submitted to Council that she gave us a correction on grammatical errors that were in the Council's reports and where the full stop should have been and commas were in the wrong spots and But there were occasions when reports were submitted to Council that she gave us a correction on grammatical errors that were in the Council's reports and where the full stop should have been and commas were in the wrong spots and
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this was before the days, of course, of word processors and spell checks. this was before the days, of course, of word processors and spell checks.
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[Roslyn] What about Laurel O'Toole who was also interviewed for this project? [Paul] Yes, Laurel was was also a Mayor of Strathfield and a good Mayor as well. In those days, the Mayors [Roslyn] What about Laurel O'Toole who was also interviewed for this project? [Paul] Yes, Laurel was was also a Mayor of Strathfield and a good Mayor as well. In those days, the Mayors
47:58

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tended to be, how would you describe them?, tended to be, how would you describe them?,
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more as part of the Council rather than as a as a separate entity, I suppose, for want of a better word. They were the spokespersons for the group that they were representing. more as part of the Council rather than as a as a separate entity, I suppose, for want of a better word. They were the spokespersons for the group that they were representing.
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Some of the, some Counc- some or some Mayors became fairly focal spokespeople, but in their own right, if you like, rather than as a representative of Council. [Roslyn] Do you mean because that was their own interest that they were? [Paul] Yes, in some instances. Some of the, some Counc- some or some Mayors became fairly focal spokespeople, but in their own right, if you like, rather than as a representative of Council. [Roslyn] Do you mean because that was their own interest that they were? [Paul] Yes, in some instances.
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But which particular interest? But which particular interest?
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Well, some of the Council, I think it's dependent to a large extent, Well, some of the Council, I think it's dependent to a large extent,
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on the, in those early Councils anyway, on the, in those early Councils anyway,
48:47

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there were a large number of Councils or Councillors who were who were elected who were affiliated with one particular group more than the other, so that the one group dominated, if you like to a large extent, the other group. [Roslyn] You mean the political group? there were a large number of Councils or Councillors who were who were elected who were affiliated with one particular group more than the other, so that the one group dominated, if you like to a large extent, the other group. [Roslyn] You mean the political group?
49:03

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Whether it was, yes, in some instances it was a political group, in some instances it was a service type group like Rotary or Whether it was, yes, in some instances it was a political group, in some instances it was a service type group like Rotary or
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or Lions, or those sorts of groups. or Lions, or those sorts of groups.
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Not a particular issue group, no, they were, they were more a collective group, if you like. Not a particular issue group, no, they were, they were more a collective group, if you like.
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Pardon me, I know when when, for instance, Clarrie Edwards was was elected, Clarrie was the newsagent at Homebush and his main objective when he was first elected was to obtain the car park at the back of the shops at Homebush and Pardon me, I know when when, for instance, Clarrie Edwards was was elected, Clarrie was the newsagent at Homebush and his main objective when he was first elected was to obtain the car park at the back of the shops at Homebush and
49:41

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he ultimately saw that he ultimately saw that
49:44

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to fruition and that's why we have the car park at the back of the Homebush shopping centre. It was, and Clarrie was was also in a position to be more accessible to the residents because he was behind the counter in the newsagent. Anybody who wanted to see him only had to go down to the shop. He didn't have to have special hours, you know, the Mayor can be interviewed between these two sorts of hours at the Council Chambers and to fruition and that's why we have the car park at the back of the Homebush shopping centre. It was, and Clarrie was was also in a position to be more accessible to the residents because he was behind the counter in the newsagent. Anybody who wanted to see him only had to go down to the shop. He didn't have to have special hours, you know, the Mayor can be interviewed between these two sorts of hours at the Council Chambers and
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I think that probably was an advantage to the residents. But I think I don't know how badly it affected I think that probably was an advantage to the residents. But I think I don't know how badly it affected
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the trade in the shop! the trade in the shop!
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[Roslyn] That ready accessibility that that Clarrie Edwards had. He was Mayor in late '70s to the early '80s. But since then the Mayor I know has made a concerted effort to go and meet people or be available in a public area? [Paul] I think yes, I think over the years the the [Roslyn] That ready accessibility that that Clarrie Edwards had. He was Mayor in late '70s to the early '80s. But since then the Mayor I know has made a concerted effort to go and meet people or be available in a public area? [Paul] I think yes, I think over the years the the
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importance importance
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has been recognised of being able to has been recognised of being able to
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be aware of the needs and the objectives and the concerns of the community. In the old days. be aware of the needs and the objectives and the concerns of the community. In the old days.
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The Councillors and the Mayors felt that they knew what the what the residents needed and they were going to give it to them regardless of whether it was good for them or not. The Councillors and the Mayors felt that they knew what the what the residents needed and they were going to give it to them regardless of whether it was good for them or not.
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In the later Councils there was In the later Councils there was
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a greater need to actually be aware of what the concerns were within the Municipality and how those concerns could be addressed, and I think that was reflected with the necessity, for instance, to advise residents of what developments were going on in the Municipality and getting feedback from that. a greater need to actually be aware of what the concerns were within the Municipality and how those concerns could be addressed, and I think that was reflected with the necessity, for instance, to advise residents of what developments were going on in the Municipality and getting feedback from that.
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And from that then the Council's realised, okay, the residents don't like this style of development or they don't like this particular type of activity and therefore we should bring in some form of control which will either boost it up if they wanted it or knock it down if they didn't want it. And from that then the Council's realised, okay, the residents don't like this style of development or they don't like this particular type of activity and therefore we should bring in some form of control which will either boost it up if they wanted it or knock it down if they didn't want it.
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And where those types of developments were not being presented, to go to the extent of knocking them back and going to the Land and Environment Court to to justify those refusals. [Roslyn] Amongst these Mayors, has there been one that's been more And where those types of developments were not being presented, to go to the extent of knocking them back and going to the Land and Environment Court to to justify those refusals. [Roslyn] Amongst these Mayors, has there been one that's been more
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keen to or less keen to go to those long extents and go to the Land and Environment Court? keen to or less keen to go to those long extents and go to the Land and Environment Court?
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In the later years In the later years
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there were a number of appeals to the Land and Environment Court. If we go, there were a number of appeals to the Land and Environment Court. If we go,
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well, Robert Kell was a developer. He was the son of well, Robert Kell was a developer. He was the son of
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Mr. Kell from Kell and Rigby Builders, and I think Robert now looks after the company, but he was Mr. Kell from Kell and Rigby Builders, and I think Robert now looks after the company, but he was
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a Mayor, after Clarrie Edwards. a Mayor, after Clarrie Edwards.
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And he And he
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actually decided not to stand for local government because of the difficulties actually decided not to stand for local government because of the difficulties
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that were developing in relation to pecuniary interest. that were developing in relation to pecuniary interest.
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Council had taken a case against John Elvy for pecuniary interest when he was Mayor. Council had taken a case against John Elvy for pecuniary interest when he was Mayor.
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And And
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it was alleged that he in fact owned it was alleged that he in fact owned
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a property in Albert Road which was a unit in a block in an area which was to be rezoned and didn't declare a pecuniary interest and voted on the issue and Council resolved to take action against him and I think it went to the lower courts and then it went to the next level of a property in Albert Road which was a unit in a block in an area which was to be rezoned and didn't declare a pecuniary interest and voted on the issue and Council resolved to take action against him and I think it went to the lower courts and then it went to the next level of
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decision and if I remember correctly, the lower courts decision and if I remember correctly, the lower courts
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was was
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against him, and the appeal was for him. against him, and the appeal was for him.
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But because of that, Robert Kell felt that because of his involvement in developments both inside and outside Strathfield, and the fact that he may inadvertently make an error in not declaring a pecuniary interest in a particular matter, that he decided to give local government away. But because of that, Robert Kell felt that because of his involvement in developments both inside and outside Strathfield, and the fact that he may inadvertently make an error in not declaring a pecuniary interest in a particular matter, that he decided to give local government away.
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Rod Rimes was the Mayor in '85. Rod Rimes was also a solicitor. Rod Rimes was the Mayor in '85. Rod Rimes was also a solicitor.
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And he And he
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was a very good Mayor. He was also a member of the, chairman of the Building and Planning Committee and as a result I had a lot to deal with Rod Rimes. He was very keen to maintain the standards of Strathfield and maintain building lines and any application that he was dealing with, or he was deciding on, he made sure that they maintained the building lines and kept all the. His view was that if we had allowed houses to come up in line with the houses on either side of them which were less than the building line, then you'd have a creeping building line and ultimately all the houses would be was a very good Mayor. He was also a member of the, chairman of the Building and Planning Committee and as a result I had a lot to deal with Rod Rimes. He was very keen to maintain the standards of Strathfield and maintain building lines and any application that he was dealing with, or he was deciding on, he made sure that they maintained the building lines and kept all the. His view was that if we had allowed houses to come up in line with the houses on either side of them which were less than the building line, then you'd have a creeping building line and ultimately all the houses would be
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the width of the narrowest building lot, and for that reason the width of the narrowest building lot, and for that reason
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he he vehemently opposed that particular aspect. [Paul] Has this been a help to you, to have Mayors who are so understanding of those issues that you face? [Paul] Yes, it was. he he vehemently opposed that particular aspect. [Paul] Has this been a help to you, to have Mayors who are so understanding of those issues that you face? [Paul] Yes, it was.
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Because having done the report, that's as much as I can do, it then had to be fought out, if you like it, at the Council meeting to decide whether or not applications would be refused or approved. Because having done the report, that's as much as I can do, it then had to be fought out, if you like it, at the Council meeting to decide whether or not applications would be refused or approved.
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In a lot of instances it was. Some Councillors felt that In a lot of instances it was. Some Councillors felt that
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an applicant should be able to build what he wanted to do. It was his money. It was his block of land. He should be able to build what he liked. an applicant should be able to build what he wanted to do. It was his money. It was his block of land. He should be able to build what he liked.
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And others had And others had
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the long term interests of the Council at heart. the long term interests of the Council at heart.
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Leo O'Donnell was another Mayor who was very adamant that our policies and codes should be adhered to and he would not countenance any variations from the Building Code. An application went before Council that didn't comply with the Building Code unless there was a very good reason for it and that was stated in the report, then he wouldn't be in favour of it. Leo O'Donnell was another Mayor who was very adamant that our policies and codes should be adhered to and he would not countenance any variations from the Building Code. An application went before Council that didn't comply with the Building Code unless there was a very good reason for it and that was stated in the report, then he wouldn't be in favour of it.
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[Roslyn] As I've looked through some of the Minutes for the time that he was on Council, he did ask, I haven't done a study of it, but he's asked an awful lot of questions. He must have been [Paul] Oh yes, [Roslyn] As I've looked through some of the Minutes for the time that he was on Council, he did ask, I haven't done a study of it, but he's asked an awful lot of questions. He must have been [Paul] Oh yes,
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[Roslyn] a thorn in the flesh for some people as well? [Paul] Yes, Leo. Leo was a very astute politician and he, [Roslyn] a thorn in the flesh for some people as well? [Paul] Yes, Leo. Leo was a very astute politician and he,
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some of the some of the
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debating techniques that he used debating techniques that he used
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you could only help but admire, but he was, he was a great stickler for Council's codes and policies. I'd say, of all of them. That was probably his greatest attribute. you could only help but admire, but he was, he was a great stickler for Council's codes and policies. I'd say, of all of them. That was probably his greatest attribute.
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[Roslyn] And of course, during the time that you have been at Council, you've had two Town Clerks before the system changed. And of course, Keith Manwaring and Jimmy Matthews. [Paul] Yeah, Jimmy Matthews was only just after I arrived. He retired in '66. I started in '65. [Roslyn] And of course, during the time that you have been at Council, you've had two Town Clerks before the system changed. And of course, Keith Manwaring and Jimmy Matthews. [Paul] Yeah, Jimmy Matthews was only just after I arrived. He retired in '66. I started in '65.
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But he was of the old school because being starting back in 1923, and I think your interview with Mr. Hudson indicates what he was like in handing out items of stationery and so on. But he was of the old school because being starting back in 1923, and I think your interview with Mr. Hudson indicates what he was like in handing out items of stationery and so on.
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But But
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he left and Bert Webber took over. Bert was the deputy, but Bert was only the Town Clerk, I think for about 12 or 18 months. And then he left. And then Keith Mainwaring from memory, came, and Keith was from '67 to '89. Keith was a he left and Bert Webber took over. Bert was the deputy, but Bert was only the Town Clerk, I think for about 12 or 18 months. And then he left. And then Keith Mainwaring from memory, came, and Keith was from '67 to '89. Keith was a
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a very strong general, Town Clerk. a very strong general, Town Clerk.
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And he And he
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had a great influence on decisions of Council, more so than you would be allowed to probably under the current legislation. had a great influence on decisions of Council, more so than you would be allowed to probably under the current legislation.
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Because he was he Because he was he
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was basically an advisor, if you like, to the Council was basically an advisor, if you like, to the Council
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on most most matters that came before Council and on most most matters that came before Council and
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was fairly adamant in his in what the decision should be on certain issues. [Roslyn] So he'd guide as well as advise? [Paul] Yes, very much so. was fairly adamant in his in what the decision should be on certain issues. [Roslyn] So he'd guide as well as advise? [Paul] Yes, very much so.
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[Roslyn] Was that well received by the council Councillors? [Paul] I think it was. [Roslyn] Was that well received by the council Councillors? [Paul] I think it was.
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The, you must appreciate that any Councillor, once they are elected, become an expert in local government, finance, building and planning, The, you must appreciate that any Councillor, once they are elected, become an expert in local government, finance, building and planning,
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environmental law, environmental law,
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as soon as they walk in through the door and as soon as they walk in through the door and
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that's the the purpose of the the that's the the purpose of the the
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the officers of Council is to give them advice as to what the legal position is on certain matters and it's up to the Council then to make the decision. the officers of Council is to give them advice as to what the legal position is on certain matters and it's up to the Council then to make the decision.
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[Roslyn] Do you remember Keith Manwaring leaving? [Roslyn] Do you remember Keith Manwaring leaving?
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[Paul] Yes, yeah, I remember when Keith left. [Roslyn] And Council's reaction to the departure? [Paul] Yes, yeah, I remember when Keith left. [Roslyn] And Council's reaction to the departure?
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Well, Keith had been from '67 to '89. He'd been with Council a long time and I think it was of his own volition that he left. Well, Keith had been from '67 to '89. He'd been with Council a long time and I think it was of his own volition that he left.
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But But
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he, in those days the Councillors and the senior staff, and whilst I was a senior staff member at the time, he, in those days the Councillors and the senior staff, and whilst I was a senior staff member at the time,
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they had, you know, the usual farewell dinners and those sorts of things. But they had, you know, the usual farewell dinners and those sorts of things. But
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I think that the general consensus was that it was a loss to Council for him to go. I think that the general consensus was that it was a loss to Council for him to go.
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For the simple reason of the expertise and the knowledge and so on that was acquired by him, and I mean he For the simple reason of the expertise and the knowledge and so on that was acquired by him, and I mean he
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He had fought for the anti-amalgamation question. He had fought for the anti-amalgamation question.
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And there had been another, another a number of major matters, the the Strathfield Plaza development. And there had been another, another a number of major matters, the the Strathfield Plaza development.
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And umm And umm
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He'd, he'd given very good counsel on those issues. Yes, Paul, the cake is about to conclude. So with regret. And I say thank you very much for your participation in this project. My pleasure. He'd, he'd given very good counsel on those issues. Yes, Paul, the cake is about to conclude. So with regret. And I say thank you very much for your participation in this project. My pleasure.