Amplify

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Language	English (Australian)	“Colour” not “Color”, “Organise” not “Organize”
Contractions	Transcribe as you hear them	“Shoulda”, “Didn’t”
Numbers	Transcribe as numerals	“11 West 40th Street”
Filled Pauses & Hesitations	Transcribe as you hear them	“ah”, “eh”, “um”
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Hard-to-understand	For speech that is difficult or impossible to understand, use question marks before and after	“And she told me that ?I should just leave?”, “Her name was ?inaudible?”
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0:01

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Strathfield's oral history project interviewing former mayors and councillors. In this case, it's an interview with Paul Wilson at Strathfield Municipal Council offices in Homebush Road, on Wednesday the 17th of December 2003, and the interviewer is Roslyn Burge. Paul, this is the second tape, so following on from the earlier part of your interview in October, could we return to the early planning scheme days in Strathfield? Strathfield's oral history project interviewing former mayors and councillors. In this case, it's an interview with Paul Wilson at Strathfield Municipal Council offices in Homebush Road, on Wednesday the 17th of December 2003, and the interviewer is Roslyn Burge. Paul, this is the second tape, so following on from the earlier part of your interview in October, could we return to the early planning scheme days in Strathfield?

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Strathfield Council was the first Council to have it actually, to to do the their own planning scheme. Prior to them, prior to that they were done by the County of Cumberland Planning Scheme or County of Cumberland Board. Strathfield Council was the first Council to have it actually, to to do the their own planning scheme. Prior to them, prior to that they were done by the County of Cumberland Planning Scheme or County of Cumberland Board.

0:47

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We, in the in the planning scheme set aside areas for residential flat development and mainly around the Homebush Station area, the Flemington Station area. We, in the in the planning scheme set aside areas for residential flat development and mainly around the Homebush Station area, the Flemington Station area.

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And a small portion around the Strathfield Station area, and that generated a considerable amount of debate, as any subsequent changes to those residential flat areas do. And a small portion around the Strathfield Station area, and that generated a considerable amount of debate, as any subsequent changes to those residential flat areas do.

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Some residents who are within that area Some residents who are within that area

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generally favour them because it results in a substantial increase in value to their properties. generally favour them because it results in a substantial increase in value to their properties.

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The people just outside the boundaries of those areas don't favour them because of the inconvenience with the building and the the increased traffic and the The people just outside the boundaries of those areas don't favour them because of the inconvenience with the building and the the increased traffic and the

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inconvenience generated by the increase in population immediately adjacent to them. inconvenience generated by the increase in population immediately adjacent to them.

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In the early 1970s, when the Flemington area was In the early 1970s, when the Flemington area was

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set aside for residential flat development, set aside for residential flat development,

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we had a we had a

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very substantial boom in residential flat building, very similar to the boom that we are currently experiencing with residential flat buildings being built cheek by jowl almost in whole streets. And areas such as very substantial boom in residential flat building, very similar to the boom that we are currently experiencing with residential flat buildings being built cheek by jowl almost in whole streets. And areas such as

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?, Hornsey, Henley and all of those areas ?, Hornsey, Henley and all of those areas

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were were

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built and the majority of the builders were done by Lend Lease. built and the majority of the builders were done by Lend Lease.

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The residential flat code at the time didn't provide for any great architectural merit. They simply specified how far back from side boundaries and rear boundaries and front boundaries you have to be. And because the blocks were fairly uniform and the developers wanted to maximize the number of units that they could get on their site, then they simply set back from the boundaries the required amount and built telephone boxes and elongated The residential flat code at the time didn't provide for any great architectural merit. They simply specified how far back from side boundaries and rear boundaries and front boundaries you have to be. And because the blocks were fairly uniform and the developers wanted to maximize the number of units that they could get on their site, then they simply set back from the boundaries the required amount and built telephone boxes and elongated

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rectangles and rectangles and

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the buildings, when they were completed, we then suffered the buildings, when they were completed, we then suffered

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a, basically a cultural shift to a certain extent, because the majority of the tenants who then moved into those buildings tended to be from the Middle East. a, basically a cultural shift to a certain extent, because the majority of the tenants who then moved into those buildings tended to be from the Middle East.

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And this presented us with a series of problems, particularly from the point of view of the the health and amenity of the area. And this presented us with a series of problems, particularly from the point of view of the the health and amenity of the area.

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On a number of fronts because On a number of fronts because

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their culture didn't allow their females to talk to a male. their culture didn't allow their females to talk to a male.

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So that if we had to go and investigate a complaint or to to follow up on a complaint, So that if we had to go and investigate a complaint or to to follow up on a complaint,

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then the females, who were generally the only ones still left at home, weren't permitted to speak to us, even though we knocked on the door and left cards and so on. They wouldn't even open the door. then the females, who were generally the only ones still left at home, weren't permitted to speak to us, even though we knocked on the door and left cards and so on. They wouldn't even open the door.

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And we have to basically wait for the male to get home and then he'd ring us the next day and then we'd have to make arrangements to meet him on site and so on. And we have to basically wait for the male to get home and then he'd ring us the next day and then we'd have to make arrangements to meet him on site and so on.

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And we had complaints of And we had complaints of

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people going over to the markets. Well, not over to the markets, but over to the sale yards, Flemington sale yards, which were still cattle yards at that time. people going over to the markets. Well, not over to the markets, but over to the sale yards, Flemington sale yards, which were still cattle yards at that time.

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The the residents would buy sheep and goats over at the markets, lead them back to their units, walk them up the stairs and into the bathrooms, and would slaughter them in the bathrooms, because most of them had to have kosher food and they had to be prepared and slaughtered in a certain way. And I understand that the the animal had to be slaughtered by having a stroke cut and you had to make sure that there were no nicks in the blade of the knife so that the flesh wasn't torn. It had to be, it had to be cut. The the residents would buy sheep and goats over at the markets, lead them back to their units, walk them up the stairs and into the bathrooms, and would slaughter them in the bathrooms, because most of them had to have kosher food and they had to be prepared and slaughtered in a certain way. And I understand that the the animal had to be slaughtered by having a stroke cut and you had to make sure that there were no nicks in the blade of the knife so that the flesh wasn't torn. It had to be, it had to be cut.

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And having done that, then they dressed the animal in the bathroom and And having done that, then they dressed the animal in the bathroom and

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then they had to dispose of the skin and offal, and in some instances they simply threw it down the stairwell or threw it out the window. then they had to dispose of the skin and offal, and in some instances they simply threw it down the stairwell or threw it out the window.

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With the resultant complaint from the With the resultant complaint from the

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some other residents. And um we also had a number of complaints some other residents. And um we also had a number of complaints

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where garbage bags of this type of material was simply dumped on the side of the road and we had to get our staff to go around and pick it up and because of the nature of it, it wasn't always easy to pick up because in hot weather where garbage bags of this type of material was simply dumped on the side of the road and we had to get our staff to go around and pick it up and because of the nature of it, it wasn't always easy to pick up because in hot weather

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the the plastic would be soft and you couldn't pick it up without putting some support under it. And anyway, without going into into too much detail, it was a bit of a problem. the the plastic would be soft and you couldn't pick it up without putting some support under it. And anyway, without going into into too much detail, it was a bit of a problem.

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So, So,

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we were, we'd probably been suffering with this problem for approximately 18 months and we got a phone call one morning from the police at Flemington, where the Flemington police station was we were, we'd probably been suffering with this problem for approximately 18 months and we got a phone call one morning from the police at Flemington, where the Flemington police station was

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to say that they had to say that they had

5:53

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umm come across a gentleman who was dumping bags of offal on the side of the road in in in Marlborough Road and that stage, Marlborough oad was not as it is now. It was simply a a road through the, through umm come across a gentleman who was dumping bags of offal on the side of the road in in in Marlborough Road and that stage, Marlborough oad was not as it is now. It was simply a a road through the, through

6:11

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from bridge, the overhead bridge. from bridge, the overhead bridge.

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But um it was more of a, of a country road, more than a, because it was fairly wide and there wasn't a lot of houses developed through there. But um it was more of a, of a country road, more than a, because it was fairly wide and there wasn't a lot of houses developed through there.

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And that this particular gentleman, when he had been approached, had attempted to bribe the police. And that this particular gentleman, when he had been approached, had attempted to bribe the police.

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And were we interested in taking on a prosecution if they acted as a witness, to which I said yes, we would. So this particular gentleman who had been arrested And were we interested in taking on a prosecution if they acted as a witness, to which I said yes, we would. So this particular gentleman who had been arrested

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couldn't speak English so we had to organise an interpreter and have the interpreter at the court and the case had to wait its turn in the list. Finally the the first case was heard and the police presented their case for bribery. couldn't speak English so we had to organise an interpreter and have the interpreter at the court and the case had to wait its turn in the list. Finally the the first case was heard and the police presented their case for bribery.

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And um the gentleman concerned argued that he didn't attempt to bribe the policeman. No, he thought that the policeman had asked him to show him what he had in his pocket. So when he put his hand in his pocket and brought money out and showed it to the policeman, it wasn't a bribe. It was simply the contents of his pocket. To which the police prosecutor said, when you emptied your pocket, or when you showed that money to the police officer, did you have any other money in your possession? And um the gentleman concerned argued that he didn't attempt to bribe the policeman. No, he thought that the policeman had asked him to show him what he had in his pocket. So when he put his hand in his pocket and brought money out and showed it to the policeman, it wasn't a bribe. It was simply the contents of his pocket. To which the police prosecutor said, when you emptied your pocket, or when you showed that money to the police officer, did you have any other money in your possession?

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Or in your pocket? Or in your pocket?

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He said Oh yes, I had other money on my, on my possession. So the magistrate then took the view that it was in fact a bribe and convicting him of attempting to bribe a policeman. He said Oh yes, I had other money on my, on my possession. So the magistrate then took the view that it was in fact a bribe and convicting him of attempting to bribe a policeman.

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So So

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the Stock Squad was then prosecuting him for an unauthorised slaughter of the animal because the material that was being dumped was a head, skin and and entrails of a couple of animals. the Stock Squad was then prosecuting him for an unauthorised slaughter of the animal because the material that was being dumped was a head, skin and and entrails of a couple of animals.

7:58

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So the Stock Squad then prosecuted him. But the magistrate said, well, I can't hear this case because I've formed an opinion as to the character of the witness and you'll have to wait for the travelling magistrate to turn up. So that was adjourned and we went back the next time that there was a travelling magistrate there and the Stock Squad presented their case and obviously their case was fairly open and shut because the chap was caught with a, with the with the evidence on him. So the Stock Squad then prosecuted him. But the magistrate said, well, I can't hear this case because I've formed an opinion as to the character of the witness and you'll have to wait for the travelling magistrate to turn up. So that was adjourned and we went back the next time that there was a travelling magistrate there and the Stock Squad presented their case and obviously their case was fairly open and shut because the chap was caught with a, with the with the evidence on him.

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So he was convicted on that offense and the magistrate said, well, I can't hear the Council's case now because I've formed an opinion as to this, this person's character. So you'll have to wait for someone for another magistrate that comes out. The third occasion, we funded that and we went in with a solicitor. So he was convicted on that offense and the magistrate said, well, I can't hear the Council's case now because I've formed an opinion as to this, this person's character. So you'll have to wait for someone for another magistrate that comes out. The third occasion, we funded that and we went in with a solicitor.

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And we presented our case and And we presented our case and

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the the defendant argued that he hadn't intended to dump the material on the side of the road. He simply had taken it out of his boot to rearrange it to make sure that it wouldn't fall over in the boot, when he turned the corner to go to the tip. When he turned the corner at the corner of Marlborough Road and Parramatta Road. [Roslyn] Isn't this at some extraordinary hour of the night as well? [Paul] Yes, he was caught at 1:30 in the morning. the the defendant argued that he hadn't intended to dump the material on the side of the road. He simply had taken it out of his boot to rearrange it to make sure that it wouldn't fall over in the boot, when he turned the corner to go to the tip. When he turned the corner at the corner of Marlborough Road and Parramatta Road. [Roslyn] Isn't this at some extraordinary hour of the night as well? [Paul] Yes, he was caught at 1:30 in the morning.

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And um so it wasn't hard to prove that the tip wasn't open at the time, at 1:30 in the morning, but that was. And um so it wasn't hard to prove that the tip wasn't open at the time, at 1:30 in the morning, but that was.

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So. So.

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Our solicitor and the Our solicitor and the

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the magistrate got into a fairly heated argument, the magistrate got into a fairly heated argument,

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on the basis that the magistrate believed that we had to prove intent, that we had to prove that he intended to leave it there and our solicitors was arguing that we didn't have to prove intent because the the Act says a person who places material on the on the road or footpath has committed an offence. on the basis that the magistrate believed that we had to prove intent, that we had to prove that he intended to leave it there and our solicitors was arguing that we didn't have to prove intent because the the Act says a person who places material on the on the road or footpath has committed an offence.

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So I could see them So I could see them

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going hammer and tongs. So I called their solicitor over and I said, listen, ask for an adjournment for 10 minutes. I want to talk to you outside. So he said good, right-oh. going hammer and tongs. So I called their solicitor over and I said, listen, ask for an adjournment for 10 minutes. I want to talk to you outside. So he said good, right-oh.

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So I asked our solicitor to seek an adjournment, so I can speak to them outside. So we sought an adjournment, the magistrate said yes, I think that would be a very good idea. So I asked our solicitor to seek an adjournment, so I can speak to them outside. So we sought an adjournment, the magistrate said yes, I think that would be a very good idea.

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So it um I called him outside and I suggested to him that he simply present his case rather than get into an argument with the magistrate, because if he gets into an argument with a magistrate he's got no chance of winning. Because a magistrate has the ultimate decision. And also um we had alluded to the fact that this particular gentleman had been before the court on a previous occasions and whilst you can't directly So it um I called him outside and I suggested to him that he simply present his case rather than get into an argument with the magistrate, because if he gets into an argument with a magistrate he's got no chance of winning. Because a magistrate has the ultimate decision. And also um we had alluded to the fact that this particular gentleman had been before the court on a previous occasions and whilst you can't directly

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call his past record before the court the magistrate can call his past record before the court the magistrate can

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go out and have a look at the records, if he so desires and I said he'll probably go out and have a look at that anyway. So anyway after the adjournment we went back in and we just presented our case. Anyway the the decision was that he was convicted of of um dumping rubbish and go out and have a look at the records, if he so desires and I said he'll probably go out and have a look at that anyway. So anyway after the adjournment we went back in and we just presented our case. Anyway the the decision was that he was convicted of of um dumping rubbish and

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and heavily fined. So he was convicted on the three offences and it turned out that prior to him being caught, he had been at a little restaurant on the corner of and heavily fined. So he was convicted on the three offences and it turned out that prior to him being caught, he had been at a little restaurant on the corner of

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The Crescent and The Crescent and

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and Henley Road - Hornsea Road, I think it is now. and Henley Road - Hornsea Road, I think it is now.

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Which at that stage was Which at that stage was

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a Turkish coffee house and they all the Turks used to congregate there. And a Turkish coffee house and they all the Turks used to congregate there. And

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as a result, the word spread fairly rapidly through the through the Turkish population, and as a result we had no further problems with with rubbish being dumped. [background laughter] But it was interesting because it was just an era of where an ethnic group tended to move sort of through the area in the process of moving west, as as the the development continued west and these different ethnic groups tended to to pass through the municipality [background laughter] as a result, the word spread fairly rapidly through the through the Turkish population, and as a result we had no further problems with with rubbish being dumped. [background laughter] But it was interesting because it was just an era of where an ethnic group tended to move sort of through the area in the process of moving west, as as the the development continued west and these different ethnic groups tended to to pass through the municipality [background laughter]

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over a period of time. We now, of course have quite a wide over a period of time. We now, of course have quite a wide

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ethnic population, ethnic population,

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different ethnic groups throughout the municipality and um it does still present us with some language difficulties in trying to get our message across, if you like, both in the, in the environmental and the building game. different ethnic groups throughout the municipality and um it does still present us with some language difficulties in trying to get our message across, if you like, both in the, in the environmental and the building game.

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[Roslyn] The Council must have had to make some changes to its practices as well as its staff to deal with some of those cultural impacts. [Paul] Yes, it was a matter of adapting different techniques, I suppose, to different groups for different problems. [Roslyn] The Council must have had to make some changes to its practices as well as its staff to deal with some of those cultural impacts. [Paul] Yes, it was a matter of adapting different techniques, I suppose, to different groups for different problems.

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I remember on one occasion I was doing a health food inspection I remember on one occasion I was doing a health food inspection

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on a shop and the person I was speaking to on a shop and the person I was speaking to

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pretended not to understand. pretended not to understand.

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And I knew they could understand from previous experience. And And I knew they could understand from previous experience. And

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I was trying to get them to tidy the place up and put in some fly screens and one thing and another. I was trying to get them to tidy the place up and put in some fly screens and one thing and another.

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And this particular gentleman said that he couldn't understand what I was saying. I said, Oh well, under those circumstances I'll have to go and get the police and in perfect English, he said what do you want to go and get the police for? And this particular gentleman said that he couldn't understand what I was saying. I said, Oh well, under those circumstances I'll have to go and get the police and in perfect English, he said what do you want to go and get the police for?

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[Roslyn] You were just telling me about that gentleman before? [Paul] Yeah. Well, yeah. Once he knew I was off to get the police, his, his [Roslyn] You were just telling me about that gentleman before? [Paul] Yeah. Well, yeah. Once he knew I was off to get the police, his, his

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knowledge of English improved tremendously. But knowledge of English improved tremendously. But

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no, we had to develop different different techniques. We had um pamphlets done in different languages. no, we had to develop different different techniques. We had um pamphlets done in different languages.

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Even now, our letterhead letters have Even now, our letterhead letters have

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a number of languages on the back of them, which simply says if you don't understand this, come to the Council Chambers because we now have facilities to bring up the Interpreting Bureau. We have three-way telephones where somebody comes to the counter. You can ring the interpreter service, tell them what language you want. The person who comes to the counter simply has to point to a list on the counter of the language that he wants to speak. You ring up the interpreter service. The interpreter gets an appropriate translator. a number of languages on the back of them, which simply says if you don't understand this, come to the Council Chambers because we now have facilities to bring up the Interpreting Bureau. We have three-way telephones where somebody comes to the counter. You can ring the interpreter service, tell them what language you want. The person who comes to the counter simply has to point to a list on the counter of the language that he wants to speak. You ring up the interpreter service. The interpreter gets an appropriate translator.

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And you can have a three-way conversation through a translator. And you can have a three-way conversation through a translator.

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That's - sorry, [Roslyn] I beg your pardon. Are these all changes that have happened in the last? [Paul] Oh, they're changes that have happened probably in the last ten to 12 years. [Roslyn] So when you first joined Council, you would never have encountered the thought that Strathfield would have to make these changes? [Paul] No, it was a fairly. That's - sorry, [Roslyn] I beg your pardon. Are these all changes that have happened in the last? [Paul] Oh, they're changes that have happened probably in the last ten to 12 years. [Roslyn] So when you first joined Council, you would never have encountered the thought that Strathfield would have to make these changes? [Paul] No, it was a fairly.

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stable population of, the majority of which were English speaking people. stable population of, the majority of which were English speaking people.

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And over over the years, the number of different nationalities that we've had to deal with is is increased and as I said, it's resulted in us having to develop different techniques. And over over the years, the number of different nationalities that we've had to deal with is is increased and as I said, it's resulted in us having to develop different techniques.

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It was interesting because we were looking at running It was interesting because we were looking at running

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education education

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lectures to food handlers. lectures to food handlers.

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And um doing some research on that And um doing some research on that

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it was it was

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That if we were going to carry out instructions to female food handlers, particularly for a number of ethnic groups, we would have to have a female lecturer because males were not allowed to talk to the females and they said they wouldn't come along to the lectures if we had a male lecturer. That if we were going to carry out instructions to female food handlers, particularly for a number of ethnic groups, we would have to have a female lecturer because males were not allowed to talk to the females and they said they wouldn't come along to the lectures if we had a male lecturer.

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[Roslyn] So is this the role of local government or more of say, public health? [Paul] No. Local - it's it's probably the role of both to a certain extent. But local councils have the responsibility of licensing food premises within their own area, investigating complaints about poor food practices and [Roslyn] So is this the role of local government or more of say, public health? [Paul] No. Local - it's it's probably the role of both to a certain extent. But local councils have the responsibility of licensing food premises within their own area, investigating complaints about poor food practices and

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for food handling and to ensure that the food is stored and handled and prepared in a hygienic manner. A lot of the nation, nationalities that we have for food handling and to ensure that the food is stored and handled and prepared in a hygienic manner. A lot of the nation, nationalities that we have

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are of the opinion that the techniques that they used in their country of origin are of the opinion that the techniques that they used in their country of origin

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is equally good out here as it is over there, and unfortunately it's not. is equally good out here as it is over there, and unfortunately it's not.

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With the result that you have to With the result that you have to

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act as an educator from that point of view when you go to do your food shop inspections. And ah that's basically the role of when you go out, to license them as to to ensure that they are maintaining food at the right temperatures and they are handling them properly and they know not to leave food out on the counter on display so the flies can carry it off, and. [Roslyn] Do you use your camera for those sorts of instances as well? [Paul] Yes, I do. act as an educator from that point of view when you go to do your food shop inspections. And ah that's basically the role of when you go out, to license them as to to ensure that they are maintaining food at the right temperatures and they are handling them properly and they know not to leave food out on the counter on display so the flies can carry it off, and. [Roslyn] Do you use your camera for those sorts of instances as well? [Paul] Yes, I do.

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And getting back to the, to the current positions that I have, And getting back to the, to the current positions that I have,

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Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday I'm working with the Town Planning and Building Department. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday I'm working with the Town Planning and Building Department.

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And as a compliance officer, I am required to And as a compliance officer, I am required to

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investigate alleged breaches of town planning consent. investigate alleged breaches of town planning consent.

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And if it so warrants to take photographic evidence of the the breach and that's either used this in court or results in an on the spot fine. There is now the facilities which, for Council to issue on the spot fines, which wasn't available in the old days. And if it so warrants to take photographic evidence of the the breach and that's either used this in court or results in an on the spot fine. There is now the facilities which, for Council to issue on the spot fines, which wasn't available in the old days.

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And all we could do was go down there and wave a big stick and tell them they were naughty boys and if we needed to, actually institute legal proceedings, which is a fairly lengthy and costly exercise, and not necessarily achieve the objectives that we wanted. Now, if they breach their conditions of development consent because of their starting early or because they're dumping materials on the footpath that they shouldn't be, And all we could do was go down there and wave a big stick and tell them they were naughty boys and if we needed to, actually institute legal proceedings, which is a fairly lengthy and costly exercise, and not necessarily achieve the objectives that we wanted. Now, if they breach their conditions of development consent because of their starting early or because they're dumping materials on the footpath that they shouldn't be,

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or any of the conditions that have been imposed. Then they can receive a $600 on the spot fine for breaches under the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act. Or they can receive a $1500 fine for breaches of the Clean Waters Act or the Pure Food or the Clean Air Act. [Roslyn] I imagine they're not well received. [Paul] They're not. There have been instances where I've been onto a job and I have issued five infringements on one property owner or any of the conditions that have been imposed. Then they can receive a $600 on the spot fine for breaches under the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act. Or they can receive a $1500 fine for breaches of the Clean Waters Act or the Pure Food or the Clean Air Act. [Roslyn] I imagine they're not well received. [Paul] They're not. There have been instances where I've been onto a job and I have issued five infringements on one property owner

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for five breaches each at $600.00 each. for five breaches each at $600.00 each.

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He was not amused, but by the same token, either with the residents around him, they were continually complaining about him, breaching the conditions of development concerns. [Roslyn] Do you ever feel under threat yourself? He was not amused, but by the same token, either with the residents around him, they were continually complaining about him, breaching the conditions of development concerns. [Roslyn] Do you ever feel under threat yourself?

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Yes and no. Yes and no.

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I know on one occasion I was on a building site many many years ago, and I know on one occasion I was on a building site many many years ago, and

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I knocked back a timber frame inspection for the roof frame I knocked back a timber frame inspection for the roof frame

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of a three Storey block of units. of a three Storey block of units.

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And I was up there with a hard hat on and hanging onto the rafters and standing on the ceiling joists. And I was up there with a hard hat on and hanging onto the rafters and standing on the ceiling joists.

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And my head was approximately two inches above the line of the rafters and And my head was approximately two inches above the line of the rafters and

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the carpenter 'accidentally', in inverted commas, dropped a a the carpenter 'accidentally', in inverted commas, dropped a a

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valley board across the rafters, which has been across the top of my head. valley board across the rafters, which has been across the top of my head.

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Fortunately, I had a safety helmet on, which meant that I wasn't knocked out of the roof because I was standing over the stairwell and it was about three storeys high. Fortunately, I had a safety helmet on, which meant that I wasn't knocked out of the roof because I was standing over the stairwell and it was about three storeys high.

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And as I walked out of the building, out past the through the, down the front stairs, a house brick missed me by about two inches because it was dropped from the top floor And as I walked out of the building, out past the through the, down the front stairs, a house brick missed me by about two inches because it was dropped from the top floor

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and just landed in the dirt beside me. [Roslyn] Did you have any other recourse? [Paul] None whatsoever. Just next to me. and just landed in the dirt beside me. [Roslyn] Did you have any other recourse? [Paul] None whatsoever. Just next to me.

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[Roslyn] That, you said that was some time ago. [Paul] That was some time ago. {Roslyn] Your life is not threatened in that way today? [Roslyn] That, you said that was some time ago. [Paul] That was some time ago. {Roslyn] Your life is not threatened in that way today?

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No. No.

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The people who receive the infringements often ring up very heated and um I'll talk to them over the phone. There's no problem with that. Explain to them why they got the infringement so that had they complied with the conditions of development consent, then obviously they wouldn't receive the infringement. The people who receive the infringements often ring up very heated and um I'll talk to them over the phone. There's no problem with that. Explain to them why they got the infringement so that had they complied with the conditions of development consent, then obviously they wouldn't receive the infringement.

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I think you'll find that most developers will build into the cost of the job a certain percentage of fines, because they realize that there are circumstances where you know they will breach the regulations, either deliberately or accidentally I think you'll find that most developers will build into the cost of the job a certain percentage of fines, because they realize that there are circumstances where you know they will breach the regulations, either deliberately or accidentally

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in an attempt to get the building completed as quickly as possible. in an attempt to get the building completed as quickly as possible.

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[Roslyn] Paul, when you were speaking earlier, you mentioned Lend Lease was one particular developer in an area. Why particularly Lend Lease around then? [Paul] Lend Lease at that point in time were probably one of the biggest developments um, but similarly to Meriton being a very big developer now. [Roslyn] Paul, when you were speaking earlier, you mentioned Lend Lease was one particular developer in an area. Why particularly Lend Lease around then? [Paul] Lend Lease at that point in time were probably one of the biggest developments um, but similarly to Meriton being a very big developer now.

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And they had the majority of the developments that were up there. They they just bought the properties and and built residential flats. And they had the majority of the developments that were up there. They they just bought the properties and and built residential flats.

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And well, I'd say almost 50% of the flats that were built up there at that stage were, were built by Lend Lease. And well, I'd say almost 50% of the flats that were built up there at that stage were, were built by Lend Lease.

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[Roslyn] You said they were elongated rectangles. Not with any particular design or style? [Paul] No, well, they're still there, so I think. [Roslyn] You said they were elongated rectangles. Not with any particular design or style? [Paul] No, well, they're still there, so I think.

21:27

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Not like they are at the moment, where Not like they are at the moment, where

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the, both councils and state government have realised that there needs to be some architectural merit in these buildings and they don't need to look like they've all been cut out of the same cookie cutter. And um they do in fact for major developments now have a a a panel that they go to for architectural merit, to look at that that particular aspect and to change the design. Not necessarily the the the, whether or not they comply with the codes, but to see even though they do comply with the codes, whether or not they they have some architectural the, both councils and state government have realised that there needs to be some architectural merit in these buildings and they don't need to look like they've all been cut out of the same cookie cutter. And um they do in fact for major developments now have a a a panel that they go to for architectural merit, to look at that that particular aspect and to change the design. Not necessarily the the the, whether or not they comply with the codes, but to see even though they do comply with the codes, whether or not they they have some architectural

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merit. And it's the same there too with with merit. And it's the same there too with with

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resident, with ordinary domestic construction. resident, with ordinary domestic construction.

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Where the code says that the building must be compatible with the streetscape and you don't have these these Where the code says that the building must be compatible with the streetscape and you don't have these these

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Middle Eastern and Middle Eastern and

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other type styles which are not compatible with the streetscape. You might have for instance a whole street of single story brick-and-tile dwellings and somebody wants to put in a three-storey cement rendered house that covers 60% of the site and obviously it's not in keeping with the streetscape. And then you have a a battle with the the architect and the and the owner and the to try and get some other type styles which are not compatible with the streetscape. You might have for instance a whole street of single story brick-and-tile dwellings and somebody wants to put in a three-storey cement rendered house that covers 60% of the site and obviously it's not in keeping with the streetscape. And then you have a a battle with the the architect and the and the owner and the to try and get some

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form of a structure which will be more in keeping with the streetscape. form of a structure which will be more in keeping with the streetscape.

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That's changed along the way, but it seems to me it's been a very strong theme to Strathfield to maintain that sense of what makes Strathfield Strathfield? That's changed along the way, but it seems to me it's been a very strong theme to Strathfield to maintain that sense of what makes Strathfield Strathfield?

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In the era that I was with Council In the era that I was with Council

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as Chief Health and Building Surveyor, the Council placed a lot of emphasis on the fact that the Municipality was as Chief Health and Building Surveyor, the Council placed a lot of emphasis on the fact that the Municipality was

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an open park-like vista with their streets with their with their street trees and the the, the an open park-like vista with their streets with their with their street trees and the the, the

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landscaping within the front gardens and the houses set back from the street. landscaping within the front gardens and the houses set back from the street.

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And this was fairly And this was fairly

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rigidly maintained We had a building line of nine metres, for instance. You couldn't have anything forward to the building line. You couldn't have carports forward to the building line because they detracted from the streetscape. And we fought many cases at the Land and Environment Court on that basis because we had only four carports forward to the building line, which I was aware of. And in cross examination I could indicate to the to the cross examiner exactly where a particular carport was. I remember on one occasion rigidly maintained We had a building line of nine metres, for instance. You couldn't have anything forward to the building line. You couldn't have carports forward to the building line because they detracted from the streetscape. And we fought many cases at the Land and Environment Court on that basis because we had only four carports forward to the building line, which I was aware of. And in cross examination I could indicate to the to the cross examiner exactly where a particular carport was. I remember on one occasion

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we were defending a carport forward of the building line. we were defending a carport forward of the building line.

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And in my evidence in chief, I pointed out where these four carports were, even why they were being there. And he placed a number of photographs in front of me and said that's a carport forward of the building line, isn't it? And I said yes it is. He said that's in Strathfield, isn't it? I said no, it's not. He said yes it is, he said, that's in Morwick Street. And I said, well, Morwick Street's under Burwood Council. And in my evidence in chief, I pointed out where these four carports were, even why they were being there. And he placed a number of photographs in front of me and said that's a carport forward of the building line, isn't it? And I said yes it is. He said that's in Strathfield, isn't it? I said no, it's not. He said yes it is, he said, that's in Morwick Street. And I said, well, Morwick Street's under Burwood Council.

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So then he said, that's a carport forward of the building line, isn't it? I said yes it is. He said that's in Strathfield, isn't it? I said, yes, it is. And I said that's one of the ones that I mentioned in my evidence in chief. Ah, so we threw that one away. He brought out two others that were carports forward of the building lines, and they equally weren't in Strathfield, they were in Burwood Council. So then he said, that's a carport forward of the building line, isn't it? I said yes it is. He said that's in Strathfield, isn't it? I said, yes, it is. And I said that's one of the ones that I mentioned in my evidence in chief. Ah, so we threw that one away. He brought out two others that were carports forward of the building lines, and they equally weren't in Strathfield, they were in Burwood Council.

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And with the result, of course, that we won the case and the carport wasn't built forward of the building line. And with the result, of course, that we won the case and the carport wasn't built forward of the building line.

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But now Council does allow carports forward of the building line. But now Council does allow carports forward of the building line.

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They do allow houses to come closer than nine metres to the street alignment. They do allow houses to come closer than nine metres to the street alignment.

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They do allow large portions, or up to 50% of the area of the front yard to be hard paved. They do allow large portions, or up to 50% of the area of the front yard to be hard paved.

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And. And.

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It all tends to eat away, if you like it, the open park-like vista to the Municipality. [Roslyn] There's one battle I read about in the local press recently where I think is it Courallie? Maybe I'm not pronouncing it correctly. Where one side of the street is, they allowed houses? It all tends to eat away, if you like it, the open park-like vista to the Municipality. [Roslyn] There's one battle I read about in the local press recently where I think is it Courallie? Maybe I'm not pronouncing it correctly. Where one side of the street is, they allowed houses?

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In Flemington? In Flemington?

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They had a change to the planning scheme which allowed residential flats in this particular area which, it had been basically excised, for want of a better word, from um the um general part of Strathfield by the development of the Sydney Farm Produce Markets which took up the whole of a major portion of that that area. And Marlborough Road was a, is near the Expressway. They had a change to the planning scheme which allowed residential flats in this particular area which, it had been basically excised, for want of a better word, from um the um general part of Strathfield by the development of the Sydney Farm Produce Markets which took up the whole of a major portion of that that area. And Marlborough Road was a, is near the Expressway.

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And they allowed residential flats And they allowed residential flats

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in the block between Marlborough Road and Couralie Avenue. And now these are in the block between Marlborough Road and Couralie Avenue. And now these are

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the whole of that area is now being developed by the residential flats and really fairly substantial residential flat buildings. But it has left the other side of the street which now backs onto the the old Ford Motor Company and the canal as a residential single story area. And the residents are now wishing to have that area included in the residential flat area on the basis that the whole of that area is now being developed by the residential flats and really fairly substantial residential flat buildings. But it has left the other side of the street which now backs onto the the old Ford Motor Company and the canal as a residential single story area. And the residents are now wishing to have that area included in the residential flat area on the basis that

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the development across the road has resulted in decreased valuations in their properties. the development across the road has resulted in decreased valuations in their properties.

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And that if they could build flats then they could be able to sell up and move out and go somewhere else. [Roslyn] Must be an unusual circumstance in the city that people are welcoming flats and wanting them? [Paul] Well, initially when it was mooted to change the zoning, there was quite a deal of objection because people realised that that this was probably going to happen. And that if they could build flats then they could be able to sell up and move out and go somewhere else. [Roslyn] Must be an unusual circumstance in the city that people are welcoming flats and wanting them? [Paul] Well, initially when it was mooted to change the zoning, there was quite a deal of objection because people realised that that this was probably going to happen.

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The Council was placed in a very difficult situation because the State Government had said we will have to have The Council was placed in a very difficult situation because the State Government had said we will have to have

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increased areas of residential flats to increase the population density because the increased areas of residential flats to increase the population density because the

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spread of of development westwards is very difficult to support with all the infrastructure like sewers and storm water and gas and electricity. spread of of development westwards is very difficult to support with all the infrastructure like sewers and storm water and gas and electricity.

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And we need to concentrate the population in the in the areas that are currently being developed. So they basically said to Council, you will bring in a a planning scheme or a variation to your planning scheme which will allow increased high rise development And we need to concentrate the population in the in the areas that are currently being developed. So they basically said to Council, you will bring in a a planning scheme or a variation to your planning scheme which will allow increased high rise development

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in areas of your choice. in areas of your choice.

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But you will do it and if you don't do it, then we will do it for you and we will tell you where you, we'll basically say you can have residential flat buildings anywhere in Strathfield. But you will do it and if you don't do it, then we will do it for you and we will tell you where you, we'll basically say you can have residential flat buildings anywhere in Strathfield.

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And so the Council was basically forced to enlarge the residential flat areas that they had previously gone And so the Council was basically forced to enlarge the residential flat areas that they had previously gone

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allowed and with the result now that we are suffering this current boom. allowed and with the result now that we are suffering this current boom.

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It tends to change the whole of the It tends to change the whole of the

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aspect if you like, of the Municipality because you go from an area which is predominantly single storey buildings on fairly substantial sizes, size, blocks of land. aspect if you like, of the Municipality because you go from an area which is predominantly single storey buildings on fairly substantial sizes, size, blocks of land.

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And I know for instance in And I know for instance in

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Hampstead Road for instance, they knocked over three houses and they're building a block of units with 62 units. Hampstead Road for instance, they knocked over three houses and they're building a block of units with 62 units.

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And that involves excavating almost two levels for car parking underneath. And that involves excavating almost two levels for car parking underneath.

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And these are the types of developments that we're getting. [Roslyn] How has the community in that street reacted to that development? [Paul] Well, it was an extension of residential flat buildings already in Hampstead Road. Hampstead Road did allow residential flat buildings up to Tavistock Road and this extended it from Tavistock Road through to Arthur Street so, [Roslyn] It's one thing to have those things allowed. It's another thing sometimes when the community realises the impact of those of a development of that size? [Paul] Well, it's got And these are the types of developments that we're getting. [Roslyn] How has the community in that street reacted to that development? [Paul] Well, it was an extension of residential flat buildings already in Hampstead Road. Hampstead Road did allow residential flat buildings up to Tavistock Road and this extended it from Tavistock Road through to Arthur Street so, [Roslyn] It's one thing to have those things allowed. It's another thing sometimes when the community realises the impact of those of a development of that size? [Paul] Well, it's got

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innumerable ramifications for surrounding areas. A, from the point of view of the size of the building has got a substantial shadow effect on adjoining properties. innumerable ramifications for surrounding areas. A, from the point of view of the size of the building has got a substantial shadow effect on adjoining properties.

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Because of the height of them, you've got loss of privacy to all this, to the surrounding buildings. People living within half a dozen houses can have their backyards overlooked 24 hours a day by people on a fourth or fifth floor of a residential flat building. And if you look at the the development down at Strathfield Station, Strathfield Square was the initial development down there, but now they have multiple buildings down there of 15-16 storeys. Because of the height of them, you've got loss of privacy to all this, to the surrounding buildings. People living within half a dozen houses can have their backyards overlooked 24 hours a day by people on a fourth or fifth floor of a residential flat building. And if you look at the the development down at Strathfield Station, Strathfield Square was the initial development down there, but now they have multiple buildings down there of 15-16 storeys.

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And if you are up 16 storeys, then you get a fair view over the surrounding countryside with the result that anybody within that field of view loses their their privacy. [Roslyn] Has there been a complaint to Council from those people? And if you are up 16 storeys, then you get a fair view over the surrounding countryside with the result that anybody within that field of view loses their their privacy. [Roslyn] Has there been a complaint to Council from those people?

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At the initial stage, yes there was, when the application was being considered. At the initial stage, yes there was, when the application was being considered.

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All of the objections of course have to be weighed up. But if the zoning is there to permit it, then you can hardly turn around and say no, you can't build it if it complies with your your policies and codes which have been set up to try and to reduce that impact as much as possible. All of the objections of course have to be weighed up. But if the zoning is there to permit it, then you can hardly turn around and say no, you can't build it if it complies with your your policies and codes which have been set up to try and to reduce that impact as much as possible.

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Paul, when you said earlier that that Council, that the government said to Council you will have these areas of development and and the Council had to react one way, how was that for you as a member of staff and for your fellow staff members? Paul, when you said earlier that that Council, that the government said to Council you will have these areas of development and and the Council had to react one way, how was that for you as a member of staff and for your fellow staff members?

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It was a matter for us then to sit down and try and work out where the the. It was a matter for us then to sit down and try and work out where the the.

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residential flat areas could be provided. You have to look at your modes of transport and where that is and your your your rail and bus transport, your the the, you try and residential flat areas could be provided. You have to look at your modes of transport and where that is and your your your rail and bus transport, your the the, you try and

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keep them to those nodes if you like. Because keep them to those nodes if you like. Because

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by putting them away from those nodes, then you're increasing the amount of traffic within your streets with people going to and from by putting them away from those nodes, then you're increasing the amount of traffic within your streets with people going to and from

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properties. properties.

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Were you horrified at the amount of work that it would involve? Were you horrified at the amount of work that it would involve?

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Well, I mean, it does involve a fair amount of work, but um more so for the town planning department than for us, that the town planning department sort of sets out where they're going to go. We then have to um deal with the development, with the building applications as they come in and have a look at the Well, I mean, it does involve a fair amount of work, but um more so for the town planning department than for us, that the town planning department sort of sets out where they're going to go. We then have to um deal with the development, with the building applications as they come in and have a look at the

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building being constructed. In the old days, Council was the only authority who could approve a building and was the only authority who could inspect a building during its construction. building being constructed. In the old days, Council was the only authority who could approve a building and was the only authority who could inspect a building during its construction.

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That's now changed because the government says um councils are too slow. We we want to speed some of these things up. That's now changed because the government says um councils are too slow. We we want to speed some of these things up.

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We'll allow We'll allow

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private certifiers to inspect buildings being constructed, subject to them having certain qualifications and private certifiers to inspect buildings being constructed, subject to them having certain qualifications and

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this is this they have done, but unfortunately the private certifiers in a small number of cases this is this they have done, but unfortunately the private certifiers in a small number of cases

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have allowed substandard buildings to be constructed and what happens is that the Council approves the development, have allowed substandard buildings to be constructed and what happens is that the Council approves the development,

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the private certifier can then approve the building plan that goes with that development. the private certifier can then approve the building plan that goes with that development.

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And in a lot of instances, the building plan doesn't reflect the requirements or the design of the original approval. And yet Council, because they've got no input into that aspect of it, won't find out until the building's finished. And in a lot of instances, the building plan doesn't reflect the requirements or the design of the original approval. And yet Council, because they've got no input into that aspect of it, won't find out until the building's finished.

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Because the private certifier approves the plan and inspects it during construction. [Roslyn] So that's added a whole another dimension of dilemmas for Council? [Paul] And so, well, not only for Council, but a lot of people unfortunately are caught with a building that doesn't comply, which can't be approved and which really needs Because the private certifier approves the plan and inspects it during construction. [Roslyn] So that's added a whole another dimension of dilemmas for Council? [Paul] And so, well, not only for Council, but a lot of people unfortunately are caught with a building that doesn't comply, which can't be approved and which really needs

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a lot of modification to bring it into conformity, which they can't afford. a lot of modification to bring it into conformity, which they can't afford.

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It sounds like a huge dilemma for another tape! It sounds like a huge dilemma for another tape!

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Paul, again talking about the the stronger arm of government. [Paul] Yeah. [Roslyn] When I arrived this morning, of course you've got your red and white ribbons bedecking [Paul] Yes. [Roslyn] on the council building and yet another potential amalgamation. [Paul] Yes. [Roslyn] Can you tell me a little about that? Paul, again talking about the the stronger arm of government. [Paul] Yeah. [Roslyn] When I arrived this morning, of course you've got your red and white ribbons bedecking [Paul] Yes. [Roslyn] on the council building and yet another potential amalgamation. [Paul] Yes. [Roslyn] Can you tell me a little about that?

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We have been the subject of approximately, if I can remember correctly, three attempts at amalgamation. We have been the subject of approximately, if I can remember correctly, three attempts at amalgamation.

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The most serious one I think was about in 1980, The most serious one I think was about in 1980,

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'83 I think it was, yes, and in that particular instance '83 I think it was, yes, and in that particular instance

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the the

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Government, the state government, in fact Government, the state government, in fact

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engaged the Boundaries Commission to investigate the amalgamation of a number of councils and they were looking at councils, or amalgamating councils, so that they had the the general population of about Bankstown Council, which was a fairly large council. engaged the Boundaries Commission to investigate the amalgamation of a number of councils and they were looking at councils, or amalgamating councils, so that they had the the general population of about Bankstown Council, which was a fairly large council.

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And it still is. But um they were at one stage looking at the amalgamation of Burwood, Strathfield, Concord, Drummoyne and Auburn. And it still is. But um they were at one stage looking at the amalgamation of Burwood, Strathfield, Concord, Drummoyne and Auburn.

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Burwood. Strathfield. Ashfield, Burwood. Strathfield. Ashfield,

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Concord, Drummoyne and Auburn, yes, which would have been a mega council in itself and that we, Concord, Drummoyne and Auburn, yes, which would have been a mega council in itself and that we,

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we being the Council. we being the Council.

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had a fairly vigorous anti amalgamation campaign. We engaged consultants and went through the media and presented our case to the to the Boundaries Commission. had a fairly vigorous anti amalgamation campaign. We engaged consultants and went through the media and presented our case to the to the Boundaries Commission.

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And we were led to believe that And we were led to believe that

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just prior to the announcement that the word was that we were going to be amalgamated. just prior to the announcement that the word was that we were going to be amalgamated.

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However, on the Monday morning when the announcement was made, the announcement was that there would be no amalgamations. However, on the Monday morning when the announcement was made, the announcement was that there would be no amalgamations.

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And um we were led to believe that it was on the basis of the fact that the decision would have been very unpopular, with the result that the incumbent State And um we were led to believe that it was on the basis of the fact that the decision would have been very unpopular, with the result that the incumbent State

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Government at the time wouldn't have been re-elected at their next election had they gone ahead with the amalgamations. [Roslyn] And this is Neville Wran's time? [Paul] From memory was Neville Wran was the minister at the time. [Roslyn] You must have spent a great deal of your own time and overtime responding to these. [Paul] There was a tremendous amount of work and I must have must say that Keith Manwaring was the main instigator as to the the anti amalgamation. He was the Town Clerk at the time and he did spend Government at the time wouldn't have been re-elected at their next election had they gone ahead with the amalgamations. [Roslyn] And this is Neville Wran's time? [Paul] From memory was Neville Wran was the minister at the time. [Roslyn] You must have spent a great deal of your own time and overtime responding to these. [Paul] There was a tremendous amount of work and I must have must say that Keith Manwaring was the main instigator as to the the anti amalgamation. He was the Town Clerk at the time and he did spend

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an enormous amount of time an enormous amount of time

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and effort and effort

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in bringing forth different points as to why we should not be amalgamated. At that stage, we were a very efficient Council and in bringing forth different points as to why we should not be amalgamated. At that stage, we were a very efficient Council and

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We were able to put what we thought anyway was a very strong anti amalgamation case, but as with a lot of these decisions, they're not generally based entirely on economics and and We were able to put what we thought anyway was a very strong anti amalgamation case, but as with a lot of these decisions, they're not generally based entirely on economics and and

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the benefits for the various areas that were the benefits for the various areas that were

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were going to be amalgamated. The theory behind the amalgamation was that you would were going to be amalgamated. The theory behind the amalgamation was that you would

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be able to reduce the upper levels of be able to reduce the upper levels of

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the structure of within the Council, the general managers and managers of various departments and be able to amalgamate those and therefore have a less top heavy if you like. Instead of having, for instance in five councils five general managers, you would only have one general manager. the structure of within the Council, the general managers and managers of various departments and be able to amalgamate those and therefore have a less top heavy if you like. Instead of having, for instance in five councils five general managers, you would only have one general manager.

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And that's in theory correct, But in practice it means that because of the size of the And that's in theory correct, But in practice it means that because of the size of the

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the staff that you are then having to control, you then have to have a, quite an additional number of sub managers to to keep tabs on everything and it becomes rather than a pyramid type structure it becomes a horizontal structure and there's not really a lot of savings to be made. The other theory is too that with larger councils you can buy plant and use it more efficiently because some of your items of plant are only used the staff that you are then having to control, you then have to have a, quite an additional number of sub managers to to keep tabs on everything and it becomes rather than a pyramid type structure it becomes a horizontal structure and there's not really a lot of savings to be made. The other theory is too that with larger councils you can buy plant and use it more efficiently because some of your items of plant are only used

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at certain times when you're doing road reconstructions and things of that nature. at certain times when you're doing road reconstructions and things of that nature.

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And whilst local smaller councils can hire those items of plant in, a bigger council can buy that item of plant and use it more more efficiently. But that doesn't necessarily work either because in nine times out of ten, And whilst local smaller councils can hire those items of plant in, a bigger council can buy that item of plant and use it more more efficiently. But that doesn't necessarily work either because in nine times out of ten,

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the different areas want to use the same bit of plant at the same time and it's it's difficult to be able to structure it so that it's used efficiently continuously. the different areas want to use the same bit of plant at the same time and it's it's difficult to be able to structure it so that it's used efficiently continuously.

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But also Paul, there's there's a sense of tribalism in Sydney. So it would seem that the communities might also have some feeling that, the the the community of Drummoyne may not feel any kindred spirit with Auburn community. [Paul] Well, there is. But also Paul, there's there's a sense of tribalism in Sydney. So it would seem that the communities might also have some feeling that, the the the community of Drummoyne may not feel any kindred spirit with Auburn community. [Paul] Well, there is.

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And the the the, And the the the,

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look, I think residents look, I think residents

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have a very strong affinity to the area that they're that they're in. I know for instance when we were looking at amalgamation in the previous years we have a very strong affinity to the area that they're that they're in. I know for instance when we were looking at amalgamation in the previous years we

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had a a surplus in the budget. had a a surplus in the budget.

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And there was a concern that had we been amalgamated, that surplus may have been used and spent in another area And there was a concern that had we been amalgamated, that surplus may have been used and spent in another area

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to bring their services up to the standard of our services were and whether that be in in sealing all their roads or to bring their services up to the standard of our services were and whether that be in in sealing all their roads or

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paving all the footpaths and that that would have been done to the detriment of of Strathfield. paving all the footpaths and that that would have been done to the detriment of of Strathfield.

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And that was another concern that they had. [Roslyn] Has the community of Strathfield responded differently to each of these ongoing amalgamations? [Paul] No. Generally the, the, the swell of public opinion has been very strongly in in opposition to any amalgamation. In the last amalgamation that we were looking at, there was a suggestion that we would amalgamate with Burwood and there was a fairly strong And that was another concern that they had. [Roslyn] Has the community of Strathfield responded differently to each of these ongoing amalgamations? [Paul] No. Generally the, the, the swell of public opinion has been very strongly in in opposition to any amalgamation. In the last amalgamation that we were looking at, there was a suggestion that we would amalgamate with Burwood and there was a fairly strong

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feeling that this would eventuate to the extent that the staff of both councils got together and we looked at our common codes, our building codes and all of our other codes to see how they would be modified to suit a common area. feeling that this would eventuate to the extent that the staff of both councils got together and we looked at our common codes, our building codes and all of our other codes to see how they would be modified to suit a common area.

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We looked at all our our items of plant and how they could be used more efficiently. We looked at all our our items of plant and how they could be used more efficiently.

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And the different systems, internal in-house systems we had accounting and all the rest of it. And the different systems, internal in-house systems we had accounting and all the rest of it.

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How they would be be moulded together. How they would be be moulded together.

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And umm And umm

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we even had umm we even had umm

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lectures to the staff as to how this was all going to lectures to the staff as to how this was all going to

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eventuate. And the Council actually sent out a questionnaire to the population to find out whether or not they would be in favour of such proposal. eventuate. And the Council actually sent out a questionnaire to the population to find out whether or not they would be in favour of such proposal.

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And And

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from memory, we got back our response of 75% and basically said they didn't want to be amalgamated even between Burwood and Strathfield. So Council basically said, all right, amalgamation's off, finished. No, no more. That is what was even being said before Burwood had had done the same to their population and got basically back to the same result. from memory, we got back our response of 75% and basically said they didn't want to be amalgamated even between Burwood and Strathfield. So Council basically said, all right, amalgamation's off, finished. No, no more. That is what was even being said before Burwood had had done the same to their population and got basically back to the same result.

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So that no, there is, there is some very strong feeling within the population involved So that no, there is, there is some very strong feeling within the population involved

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wanting to stay the status quo. wanting to stay the status quo.

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That always seems to be an issue that comes and goes with Strathfield. Do you think that in time it may be consumed in another council area? That always seems to be an issue that comes and goes with Strathfield. Do you think that in time it may be consumed in another council area?

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I think that it will continue to become a question for debate, I think that it will continue to become a question for debate,

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over a period of time, over a period of time,

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whether or not whether or not

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Councils can Councils can

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continue to operate, continue to operate,

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whether they're as efficient as we are, whether they're as efficient as we are,

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to to

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be able to satisfy the requirements of their populations of their residents. be able to satisfy the requirements of their populations of their residents.

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And whether or not a higher authority will see a And whether or not a higher authority will see a

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more more

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efficient organization being run efficient organization being run

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as an amalgamated council rather than as a as a single council. as an amalgamated council rather than as a as a single council.

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Paul, just changing direction a moment. I'm interested in the strength of the role of women on Council in Strathfield. And you were here in the time when some of those early women councillors came on board, Helen L'Orange and Eileen Stirk. Paul, just changing direction a moment. I'm interested in the strength of the role of women on Council in Strathfield. And you were here in the time when some of those early women councillors came on board, Helen L'Orange and Eileen Stirk.

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Yes, they when they first came on Council, it was certainly a a shock to the system for want of a better word, because they'd never been female Councillors before. Yes, they when they first came on Council, it was certainly a a shock to the system for want of a better word, because they'd never been female Councillors before.

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Umm, the early days, Umm, the early days,

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some of them on some issues, they did have some some difficult periods. some of them on some issues, they did have some some difficult periods.

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And I know on one occasion the the And I know on one occasion the the

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female Councillors were reduced to tears over discussions with female Councillors were reduced to tears over discussions with

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in debates in the Council Chambers over certain issues which they felt very strongly about. in debates in the Council Chambers over certain issues which they felt very strongly about.

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And I can't think of a particular instance at the moment, but I do recall Councillors, female councillors, being reduced to tears. [Roslyn] Because of bullying by other Councillors? [Paul] Well, because of the the way the debate went and the fact that And I can't think of a particular instance at the moment, but I do recall Councillors, female councillors, being reduced to tears. [Roslyn] Because of bullying by other Councillors? [Paul] Well, because of the the way the debate went and the fact that

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generally speaking, they were a minority voice, generally speaking, they were a minority voice,

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both not only from a female point of view, but from a political base, if you like. both not only from a female point of view, but from a political base, if you like.

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And that And that

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they they had they they had

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they brought up issues which you know, were they brought up issues which you know, were

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were relevant and were were relevant and were

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agreed to by other Councillors and they went through, but in some issues their views were certainly at variance to the majority of the male members and they weren't always agreed to by other Councillors and they went through, but in some issues their views were certainly at variance to the majority of the male members and they weren't always

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accepted by the male members. accepted by the male members.

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We, from the point of view of the staff, didn't have a lot of direct contact with Councillors as such. That was all mainly through the Mayor who, or the General Manager or Town Clerk, as we were saying before, but as the We, from the point of view of the staff, didn't have a lot of direct contact with Councillors as such. That was all mainly through the Mayor who, or the General Manager or Town Clerk, as we were saying before, but as the

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things changed over time, the Councillors became more involved if you like, in the day-to-day issues of various problems which cropped up and people became more aware of the fact that they could approach their councillor with a view to having their point of view put forward. things changed over time, the Councillors became more involved if you like, in the day-to-day issues of various problems which cropped up and people became more aware of the fact that they could approach their councillor with a view to having their point of view put forward.

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And as a result the And as a result the

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Councillors then became Councillors then became

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more active, if you like by contacting staff, more active, if you like by contacting staff,

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pardon me, to find out what was going on with a particular issue. pardon me, to find out what was going on with a particular issue.

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And that led to some And that led to some

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complications because one Councillor would ring up and get a a an update on what the the position was and complications because one Councillor would ring up and get a a an update on what the the position was and

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later on in the day, another Councillor would ring up to find out what the position was in relation to the same issue. And because it had progressed by half a day, he got different information to the first Councillor. And when that issue came up for debate, of course they both got up to tell them everybody what they knew about it. And of course one was updated more than the other, which resulted in some some later on in the day, another Councillor would ring up to find out what the position was in relation to the same issue. And because it had progressed by half a day, he got different information to the first Councillor. And when that issue came up for debate, of course they both got up to tell them everybody what they knew about it. And of course one was updated more than the other, which resulted in some some

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difficult moments with the result then that the Council then said, all right, all information should be either through the General Manager or through the the the Mayor and difficult moments with the result then that the Council then said, all right, all information should be either through the General Manager or through the the the Mayor and

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staff were not, or the Councillors were not to directly contact staff in relation to any issue. staff were not, or the Councillors were not to directly contact staff in relation to any issue.

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And that became the practice but And that became the practice but

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[Roslyn] The role of women in the involvement of women in council has changed dramatically. It's a much stronger role now? [Paul] It is now in those days too. Of course, when an application came before Council, there was no public consultation, there was no need for it. So somebody lodged an application with Council that was dealt with on its merits and there was no comment or input from any surrounding property owner. [Roslyn] The role of women in the involvement of women in council has changed dramatically. It's a much stronger role now? [Paul] It is now in those days too. Of course, when an application came before Council, there was no public consultation, there was no need for it. So somebody lodged an application with Council that was dealt with on its merits and there was no comment or input from any surrounding property owner.

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And it wasn't until the legislation was changed that made it compulsory for Councils to notify surrounding residents. And that opened up a whole new issue of procedures and documentation and to make sure that the procedures were followed to ensure that Council wasn't issuing a consent illegally that hadn't been properly notified. And then it was a matter of trying to weigh up the the And it wasn't until the legislation was changed that made it compulsory for Councils to notify surrounding residents. And that opened up a whole new issue of procedures and documentation and to make sure that the procedures were followed to ensure that Council wasn't issuing a consent illegally that hadn't been properly notified. And then it was a matter of trying to weigh up the the

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comments and objections of residents who saw loss of privacy and overshadowing and those sorts of issues is of major concern to somebody who wanted to build a Taj Mahal on a block of land the size of a postage stamp. comments and objections of residents who saw loss of privacy and overshadowing and those sorts of issues is of major concern to somebody who wanted to build a Taj Mahal on a block of land the size of a postage stamp.

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And a lot of those issues And a lot of those issues

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took some fairly lengthy negotiations and took some fairly lengthy negotiations and

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Council staff had to go through courses on conflict resolutions and all sorts of things to be able to mediate these sorts of issues because there was a, there were there were other instances where Council staff had to go through courses on conflict resolutions and all sorts of things to be able to mediate these sorts of issues because there was a, there were there were other instances where

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an issue came before Council which complied in all respect with the regulations, but because it was an issue came before Council which complied in all respect with the regulations, but because it was

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a political issue where a number of residents didn't want it, the Council would then turn around and refuse it. a political issue where a number of residents didn't want it, the Council would then turn around and refuse it.

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And then say, well, on what grounds? And it was a case of well, the Inspector will will furnish the grounds for refusal. And then say, well, on what grounds? And it was a case of well, the Inspector will will furnish the grounds for refusal.

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And it made it very difficult because then it went to the Land and Environment Court and you had to then justify the reasons for refusal and sometimes you could and sometimes you couldn't. And it made it very difficult because then it went to the Land and Environment Court and you had to then justify the reasons for refusal and sometimes you could and sometimes you couldn't.

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[Roslyn] It's an interesting, excuse me, layer of government that I think the community doesn't have a real understanding of the strength and and role of local government until it has some involvement with it. [Paul] Well, this is true. I mean local government in most instances the most contact residents have a road, well is is, you know, garbage, [Roslyn] It's an interesting, excuse me, layer of government that I think the community doesn't have a real understanding of the strength and and role of local government until it has some involvement with it. [Paul] Well, this is true. I mean local government in most instances the most contact residents have a road, well is is, you know, garbage,

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street sweeping and roads and that's about it. And it's not until you wish to carry out some form of development, whether it be a an operation or a modification or a new dwelling or an objection to a a proposal, that you do have any contact with Council. And street sweeping and roads and that's about it. And it's not until you wish to carry out some form of development, whether it be a an operation or a modification or a new dwelling or an objection to a a proposal, that you do have any contact with Council. And

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it can be quite an eye opener to to find out just what powers councils do and don't have in relation to being able to control development. it can be quite an eye opener to to find out just what powers councils do and don't have in relation to being able to control development.

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And notwithstanding the, the And notwithstanding the, the

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desire to stop a particular development, for whatever reason, even their decisions can be overruled by the Land and Environment Court. desire to stop a particular development, for whatever reason, even their decisions can be overruled by the Land and Environment Court.

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[Roslyn] Paul, the tape's heading towards its end and there are just a couple of things I wanted to ask you about. Just coming back to Council and the actual meetings of Council, I recall you mentioning earlier about, you would put up your hand in Council at meetings to clarify items and and that changed? [Paul] Yes, in the early days [Roslyn] Paul, the tape's heading towards its end and there are just a couple of things I wanted to ask you about. Just coming back to Council and the actual meetings of Council, I recall you mentioning earlier about, you would put up your hand in Council at meetings to clarify items and and that changed? [Paul] Yes, in the early days

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when a an issue was being debated or discussed, particularly a building matter where I was the Chief Health and Building Surveyor, when a an issue was being debated or discussed, particularly a building matter where I was the Chief Health and Building Surveyor,

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points would be raised during debate about a particular issue points would be raised during debate about a particular issue

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which I knew to be incorrect. which I knew to be incorrect.

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And in some instances, it was simply being raised by a Councillor to make a point. And in some instances, it was simply being raised by a Councillor to make a point.

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And in those instances where I knew the information was correct, I would raise my hand so that I could at least address the Council and explain or clarify a particular point. And in those instances where I knew the information was correct, I would raise my hand so that I could at least address the Council and explain or clarify a particular point.

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And that was the procedure for many years, however, in later years And that was the procedure for many years, however, in later years

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where the debates became fairly where the debates became fairly

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?, for want of a better word. ?, for want of a better word.

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Councillors didn't like to be corrected on making statements Councillors didn't like to be corrected on making statements

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to the the the public gallery and as a result a resolution was passed that staff were not to be to the the the public gallery and as a result a resolution was passed that staff were not to be

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not to address Council or to raise their hand to raise an issue unless there was a specific question posed to them by a Councillor or by the General Manager. not to address Council or to raise their hand to raise an issue unless there was a specific question posed to them by a Councillor or by the General Manager.

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And as a result, we just had to sit there and listen to the debate. And as a result, we just had to sit there and listen to the debate.

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[Roslyn] And then remedy it after the effect? [Paul] Well, in some instances the decision was made. That was it. We couldn't remedy it. That once the Council made its decision, that became the Council decision and we were stuck with it. [Roslyn] Was that frustrating for staff? [Paul] Very. [Roslyn] How did they get around that? [Paul] Well, you, [Roslyn] And then remedy it after the effect? [Paul] Well, in some instances the decision was made. That was it. We couldn't remedy it. That once the Council made its decision, that became the Council decision and we were stuck with it. [Roslyn] Was that frustrating for staff? [Paul] Very. [Roslyn] How did they get around that? [Paul] Well, you,

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the function of senior staff is simply to place the Councils, to place the the relevant information before the Council to advise them of the legal position. the function of senior staff is simply to place the Councils, to place the the relevant information before the Council to advise them of the legal position.

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And to advise them of the conditions that should be imposed if the application is to be approved or the reasons why it should be refused. And in some instances when I did a report to Council and it the decision could have gone either way, approval or disapproval, I would indicate my what I felt should be done with it, whether it should be approved or disapproved. And to advise them of the conditions that should be imposed if the application is to be approved or the reasons why it should be refused. And in some instances when I did a report to Council and it the decision could have gone either way, approval or disapproval, I would indicate my what I felt should be done with it, whether it should be approved or disapproved.

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And I'd give them the reasons for refusal and the reasons for for approval, or the conditions to be imposed for approval. And then if the Council wanted to approve it, they had the conditions for approval. If they wanted to refuse it, they had the reasons for refusal. And I'd give them the reasons for refusal and the reasons for for approval, or the conditions to be imposed for approval. And then if the Council wanted to approve it, they had the conditions for approval. If they wanted to refuse it, they had the reasons for refusal.

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And whatever the decision was, that became the decision of the Council. And whatever the decision was, that became the decision of the Council.

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[Roslyn] Keith Manwaring was the Town Clerk for a long time during your time on Council, he must have been a strong guiding force. [Paul] Yes, Keith, um when I first started on Council, [Roslyn] Keith Manwaring was the Town Clerk for a long time during your time on Council, he must have been a strong guiding force. [Paul] Yes, Keith, um when I first started on Council,

53:00

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actually signed every letter that came out of the Council and he actually signed every letter that came out of the Council and he

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read every letter that came into the Council and made comments on it as to what he thought should be done with it and. [Roslyn] Hard to imagine that would be possible today? [Paul] Well, it wouldn't be, but of course in those days we didn't have computers and I, I attempted to get a word processor for my department and that wasn't agreed to, even though the Council had allowed for the financial amount in the budget. read every letter that came into the Council and made comments on it as to what he thought should be done with it and. [Roslyn] Hard to imagine that would be possible today? [Paul] Well, it wouldn't be, but of course in those days we didn't have computers and I, I attempted to get a word processor for my department and that wasn't agreed to, even though the Council had allowed for the financial amount in the budget.

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Do you remember when this was? Do you remember when this was?

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Not specifically, but it was when when actually just before computers, but when they had Not specifically, but it was when when actually just before computers, but when they had

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word processing typewriters where you could actually program the typewriter to do. word processing typewriters where you could actually program the typewriter to do.

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and particularly with the type of materials that we had where we had common conditions to be imposed on repetitive numbers of and particularly with the type of materials that we had where we had common conditions to be imposed on repetitive numbers of

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of applications. I remember when we first started here, the business paper was cut onto a stencil. The stencil was put in the Gestetner machine and each page was hand Roneo'd off. And then to compile the business paper we had to form a chain one behind the other and walk around the table and pick up page after page which which were in bundles to compile a business paper. And that was our Friday afternoon's exercise. of applications. I remember when we first started here, the business paper was cut onto a stencil. The stencil was put in the Gestetner machine and each page was hand Roneo'd off. And then to compile the business paper we had to form a chain one behind the other and walk around the table and pick up page after page which which were in bundles to compile a business paper. And that was our Friday afternoon's exercise.

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[Roslyn] I can remember that happening in my first job, but I think today that would be laughed out of court! [Paul] Well, it would, but that was the the state of the technology for want of a better word than when we were doing it. [Roslyn] What other things do you remember about Council's technology or absence of in those early days? [Roslyn] I can remember that happening in my first job, but I think today that would be laughed out of court! [Paul] Well, it would, but that was the the state of the technology for want of a better word than when we were doing it. [Roslyn] What other things do you remember about Council's technology or absence of in those early days?

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I can remember when I first started here one of my jobs was to relieve the telephone operator on the phone. And we had one of those old telephone switchboards where you had to lift the cord with the plug on it out and stick it into the extension and lift the other one out and stick it into the the other extension and then put throw the switches forward, backwards and forwards to make the connection. I can remember when I first started here one of my jobs was to relieve the telephone operator on the phone. And we had one of those old telephone switchboards where you had to lift the cord with the plug on it out and stick it into the extension and lift the other one out and stick it into the the other extension and then put throw the switches forward, backwards and forwards to make the connection.

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We used to do that, as I say at lunchtime. [Roslyn] Who was, who was the telephonist? [Paul] Oh we had a number of them at that at that stage. When I say a number of them, we had We used to do that, as I say at lunchtime. [Roslyn] Who was, who was the telephonist? [Paul] Oh we had a number of them at that at that stage. When I say a number of them, we had

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they used to be, I think they used to be, I think

55:20

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staff that doubled up to do other things during the day. We in fact had a a tea lady here when I first started. She used to come around with the the trolley, with the tea on it and the and the biscuits and everybody staff that doubled up to do other things during the day. We in fact had a a tea lady here when I first started. She used to come around with the the trolley, with the tea on it and the and the biscuits and everybody

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could get their cup of tea poured out by the tea lady and the tea lady'd take the tea cups away and wash them all up. [Roslyn] What was her name? [Paul] She was Maria. I can't think of like the second name, but she was here for many, many years. [Roslyn] When did the tea lady finally leave? [Paul] Oh cripes, the end of the '60s. I started '65. could get their cup of tea poured out by the tea lady and the tea lady'd take the tea cups away and wash them all up. [Roslyn] What was her name? [Paul] She was Maria. I can't think of like the second name, but she was here for many, many years. [Roslyn] When did the tea lady finally leave? [Paul] Oh cripes, the end of the '60s. I started '65.

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She was probably still here at '75. Must have been around that time, I can't remember precisely. But then you have to make your own cup of tea. She was probably still here at '75. Must have been around that time, I can't remember precisely. But then you have to make your own cup of tea.

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But. But.

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[Roslyn] Paul, one of the other stories that we wanted to talk about this morning was the fires in the garbage. And and if you could tell me about that? [Paul] We had our garbage tip over in Mason Park for a number of years. It was an extension of of sorry, in Bressington Park, which was an extension of Mason Park, and we ran our own tip. We had our own tip attendant over there and our own compactor. [Roslyn] When are we talking about? [Paul] This started, when I first started here in 1965 we we had it. [Roslyn] Paul, one of the other stories that we wanted to talk about this morning was the fires in the garbage. And and if you could tell me about that? [Paul] We had our garbage tip over in Mason Park for a number of years. It was an extension of of sorry, in Bressington Park, which was an extension of Mason Park, and we ran our own tip. We had our own tip attendant over there and our own compactor. [Roslyn] When are we talking about? [Paul] This started, when I first started here in 1965 we we had it.

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And when the State Pollution Control Commission came into vogue And when the State Pollution Control Commission came into vogue

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they basically required us to close the tip because they were then going to control the disposal of waste in the whole of the Sydney basin. they basically required us to close the tip because they were then going to control the disposal of waste in the whole of the Sydney basin.

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Because up to then it was fairly Because up to then it was fairly

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piecemeal. piecemeal.

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We came to an agreement with Burwood Council and with Auburn Council and we in fact accepted the waste from Burwood Council and We came to an agreement with Burwood Council and with Auburn Council and we in fact accepted the waste from Burwood Council and

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not Auburn Council, Ashfield Council. not Auburn Council, Ashfield Council.

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Charge them for it, and the cost of their tipping fees from Burwood and Ashfield covered the cost of our own garbage service, so our garbage service didn't cost us anything. We were one of the first Councils to have a fully enclosed compaction type garbage collection vehicle, an old Dennis, and there's a photograph of it on the wall Charge them for it, and the cost of their tipping fees from Burwood and Ashfield covered the cost of our own garbage service, so our garbage service didn't cost us anything. We were one of the first Councils to have a fully enclosed compaction type garbage collection vehicle, an old Dennis, and there's a photograph of it on the wall

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in Patrick Wong's office is now, occupying my position. [Roslyn] It's interesting that these pieces of equipment, just distracting you for a moment, have pride of place in a photograph on Council walls! [Paul laughing] Yes in Patrick Wong's office is now, occupying my position. [Roslyn] It's interesting that these pieces of equipment, just distracting you for a moment, have pride of place in a photograph on Council walls! [Paul laughing] Yes

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[Roslyn] ? the Council. [Paul] Well, they were very big items of plant to buy. I mean even a garbage truck now will cost you $250,000. [Roslyn] I bet you don't have a photo of a truck now though on the wall? Not of the not of the current one, no, of the first one, because as I say it was on a Dennis chassis which was an old fire fire chassis. They were imported from England. [Roslyn] ? the Council. [Paul] Well, they were very big items of plant to buy. I mean even a garbage truck now will cost you $250,000. [Roslyn] I bet you don't have a photo of a truck now though on the wall? Not of the not of the current one, no, of the first one, because as I say it was on a Dennis chassis which was an old fire fire chassis. They were imported from England.

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So there was no locally produced ones, but. So there was no locally produced ones, but.

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Yes, we had a, with the tip we had continual problems with them catching fire because of the internal Yes, we had a, with the tip we had continual problems with them catching fire because of the internal

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combustion from them. combustion from them.

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Not internal combustion, the Not internal combustion, the

58:21

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the heat generated by the rotting garbage actually caused it to catch fire, which necessitated us hiring equipment to cut back trenches around it and then we had to flood the back trench with water to stop it spreading into the into the body of the tip. [Roslyn] Did that work? [Paul] Okay, well, in most instances it did. We when we had a report of a fire, I had to go over to Redfern fire station, borrow their fire hoses. We had to get a water pump from the top depot and drop the the heat generated by the rotting garbage actually caused it to catch fire, which necessitated us hiring equipment to cut back trenches around it and then we had to flood the back trench with water to stop it spreading into the into the body of the tip. [Roslyn] Did that work? [Paul] Okay, well, in most instances it did. We when we had a report of a fire, I had to go over to Redfern fire station, borrow their fire hoses. We had to get a water pump from the top depot and drop the

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pick up line into the into the Powell's Creek and pick up line into the into the Powell's Creek and

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run a continuous line of fire hose from there all the way up to where the fire was, and we'd leave that overnight. But unfortunately sometimes the vandals would get in and cut all the brass fittings up either end of the of the fire hoses, and we'd have to take the fire hoses back to the fire station without the brass fittings on them, which upset the fire station at no end. [Roslyn] Is this still in the '60s? [Paul] This will be still in the '60s, early '70s, yes. run a continuous line of fire hose from there all the way up to where the fire was, and we'd leave that overnight. But unfortunately sometimes the vandals would get in and cut all the brass fittings up either end of the of the fire hoses, and we'd have to take the fire hoses back to the fire station without the brass fittings on them, which upset the fire station at no end. [Roslyn] Is this still in the '60s? [Paul] This will be still in the '60s, early '70s, yes.

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We had an occasion there where where we had a bad fire and we hired a big We had an occasion there where where we had a bad fire and we hired a big

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D9, which was a big bulldozer to bulldoze the flaming D9, which was a big bulldozer to bulldoze the flaming

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garbage back out so that we could get a fire hose onto it and he unfortunately got bogged and the garbage back out so that we could get a fire hose onto it and he unfortunately got bogged and the

59:46

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machine that we had which was a trackscavator and they tied an inch and a half steel cable onto it to try and pull it out. The cable snapped and wrapped around the cab of the the D9 nearly killed the driver of the of the machine and because we couldn't get the truck out there, the other machine out, it actually got burnt. So we weren't too popular with the hiring company either. [Roslyn] My goodness what an expense to Council! [Paul] It was yes, very expensive. We had continual problems too with trying to maintain cover for the tip because at the end of every day's tipping we had to cover the garbage with 12 inches of of soil. machine that we had which was a trackscavator and they tied an inch and a half steel cable onto it to try and pull it out. The cable snapped and wrapped around the cab of the the D9 nearly killed the driver of the of the machine and because we couldn't get the truck out there, the other machine out, it actually got burnt. So we weren't too popular with the hiring company either. [Roslyn] My goodness what an expense to Council! [Paul] It was yes, very expensive. We had continual problems too with trying to maintain cover for the tip because at the end of every day's tipping we had to cover the garbage with 12 inches of of soil.

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And we used to get fly ash, what was called fly ash, from Bunnerong, from the power station at in the city, which was the old ash from the burnt coal and use that. And that presented us with a problem because as we were laying it the, it used to, they called it fly ash because it was so fine. It used to blow across into Concord Council and give us more trouble than it was worth. And we had to keep that down. [Roslyn] When you said in the power station in town, was that the Pyrmont one? [Paul] Pyrmont power station. Yeah, they'd they'd send out two or three loads, anxious to get rid of it. And we used to get fly ash, what was called fly ash, from Bunnerong, from the power station at in the city, which was the old ash from the burnt coal and use that. And that presented us with a problem because as we were laying it the, it used to, they called it fly ash because it was so fine. It used to blow across into Concord Council and give us more trouble than it was worth. And we had to keep that down. [Roslyn] When you said in the power station in town, was that the Pyrmont one? [Paul] Pyrmont power station. Yeah, they'd they'd send out two or three loads, anxious to get rid of it.

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We'd try and get clean fill from wherever we could as a cover and. We'd try and get clean fill from wherever we could as a cover and.

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[Roslyn] That's a considerable effort every day to do that? [Paul] Oh yes, yes, because we had millions of seagulls over there. [Roslyn] That's a considerable effort every day to do that? [Paul] Oh yes, yes, because we had millions of seagulls over there.

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Were always a problem and as I say, whenever it caught fire the smoke would drift across into Concord and they'd be on the phone complaining, we'd have to try and get it out as quickly as we could. Were always a problem and as I say, whenever it caught fire the smoke would drift across into Concord and they'd be on the phone complaining, we'd have to try and get it out as quickly as we could.

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[Roslyn] Paul, you were involved with the Inner City Waste Board as well, weren't you? [Paul] Yes, we I was a representative with the Inner Sydney Waste Board. [Roslyn] Paul, you were involved with the Inner City Waste Board as well, weren't you? [Paul] Yes, we I was a representative with the Inner Sydney Waste Board.

1:01:29

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That came into into fruition as a result of the State Government attempting to to reduce the amount of material going to landfill and increasing the amount of of That came into into fruition as a result of the State Government attempting to to reduce the amount of material going to landfill and increasing the amount of of

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material being recycled and that was another era, if you like, of Council. Whereas up to that point in time, everything went to the tip. material being recycled and that was another era, if you like, of Council. Whereas up to that point in time, everything went to the tip.

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Once they realized that tipping space was at a premium and we were running out of tip space because our tip was closed, we were then transferred to a Once they realized that tipping space was at a premium and we were running out of tip space because our tip was closed, we were then transferred to a

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quarry, which was in Hill Road, Auburn. That got filled and in the. quarry, which was in Hill Road, Auburn. That got filled and in the.

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(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)