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0:14

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Okay tape I.D, it's Wednesday the 24th of March, 199? Okay tape I.D, it's Wednesday the 24th of March, 199?
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Johnny, Johnny usually. Johnny Allen. A, L, L, E, N. Introduce yourself. Sure Johnny, Johnny usually. Johnny Allen. A, L, L, E, N. Introduce yourself. Sure
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I'm Johnny Allen, I was the co-director of the Nimbin Aquarius Festival in 1973 I'm Johnny Allen, I was the co-director of the Nimbin Aquarius Festival in 1973
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by dint of my role as Director of the Australian Union of Students. Ah, since then I've by dint of my role as Director of the Australian Union of Students. Ah, since then I've
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pursued a pretty chequered career leading to my current role as events manager for pursued a pretty chequered career leading to my current role as events manager for
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The Darling Harbour Authority, responsible for all of the activities The Darling Harbour Authority, responsible for all of the activities
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that happen in the outdoor spaces of Darling Harbour. Can you fill us in on the sort of things you were into before the festival that happen in the outdoor spaces of Darling Harbour. Can you fill us in on the sort of things you were into before the festival
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Yes, uh Nimbin and the Aquarius Festival for me Yes, uh Nimbin and the Aquarius Festival for me
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came out of the series of strands of things came out of the series of strands of things
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that I'd been involved in, and one fairly important one was theatre. that I'd been involved in, and one fairly important one was theatre.
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And one may wonder at first how theatre connects up with Nimbin and what Nimbin was And one may wonder at first how theatre connects up with Nimbin and what Nimbin was
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but for me as I say my early training was in theatre but for me as I say my early training was in theatre
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but I soon sort of became interested in theatre in the wider sense if you like, theatre but I soon sort of became interested in theatre in the wider sense if you like, theatre
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theatre, the streets as theatre, and environment as theatre and, uh theatre, the streets as theatre, and environment as theatre and, uh
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that led me into doing a series of smaller events sorry and around, around Sydney that led me into doing a series of smaller events sorry and around, around Sydney
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that were festivals but in the context of going out to a country locations that were festivals but in the context of going out to a country locations
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and exploring the Australian environment. For me it was a little bit about and exploring the Australian environment. For me it was a little bit about
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that, it was as a, uh, a young Australian that had been born in the country that, it was as a, uh, a young Australian that had been born in the country
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and moved down to the city. and moved down to the city.
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It was partly about rediscovering country Australia It was partly about rediscovering country Australia
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and rediscovering the environment and then with it all of the questions and rediscovering the environment and then with it all of the questions
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that were being thrown up by, um, environmental damage and environmental pollution. that were being thrown up by, um, environmental damage and environmental pollution.
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So theatre was, uh, one significant strand of it. So theatre was, uh, one significant strand of it.
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Another one was what I would call the university culture. Another one was what I would call the university culture.
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I think that, um, I was a student at the University of New South Wales I think that, um, I was a student at the University of New South Wales
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and I think the universities around Australia at that point in time, and I think the universities around Australia at that point in time,
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I'm talking now the mid to late 60s were an area of somewhat interesting I'm talking now the mid to late 60s were an area of somewhat interesting
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ferment and ideas and you know fertile ground ferment and ideas and you know fertile ground
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and when I think back to many of my contemporaries at university where they've gone and when I think back to many of my contemporaries at university where they've gone
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since, it was an interesting time. since, it was an interesting time.
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So part of it was that sort of university culture and as I say So part of it was that sort of university culture and as I say
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and the mechanical side of Nimbin for me was a job as director of the and the mechanical side of Nimbin for me was a job as director of the
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Aquarius Foundation, which is something Aquarius Foundation, which is something
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that the Australian Union of Students had set up to try and encourage cultural that the Australian Union of Students had set up to try and encourage cultural
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circuit around the universities circuit around the universities
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so in the in the year or so leading up to Nimbin one part of my job was organising so in the in the year or so leading up to Nimbin one part of my job was organising
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tours of everyone from Jenny Lewis to Daddy Cool through to tours of everyone from Jenny Lewis to Daddy Cool through to
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various environmental speakers, ah, various environmental speakers, ah,
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Ron Cobb the cartoonist, Phil Oakies the original sort of folk musician. Ron Cobb the cartoonist, Phil Oakies the original sort of folk musician.
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A whole series of things, um, designed and where possible we took A whole series of things, um, designed and where possible we took
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that in the direction of not just entertainment that in the direction of not just entertainment
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but in the direction of cultural tourism. but in the direction of cultural tourism.
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I guess you would call it cultural entrepreneuring. So that was one direction. I guess you would call it cultural entrepreneuring. So that was one direction.
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The other was of course um. Rock music. The other was of course um. Rock music.
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I had um, in the um, years immediately prior to Nimbin I had been running I had um, in the um, years immediately prior to Nimbin I had been running
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one of Sydney's only two um, rock venues called The Art Factory which is down in Goulburn one of Sydney's only two um, rock venues called The Art Factory which is down in Goulburn
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street and that..what The Art Factory was in those days was a bit of a home street and that..what The Art Factory was in those days was a bit of a home
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and a breeding ground for alternative Australian Music. I mean many of the bands of and a breeding ground for alternative Australian Music. I mean many of the bands of
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the-the day. Tully, Nutwood Rug etc.. the-the day. Tully, Nutwood Rug etc..
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Had their home in The Arts Factory Had their home in The Arts Factory
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and probably if it weren't for The Arts Factory they would never have existed. [laughs]. And and probably if it weren't for The Arts Factory they would never have existed. [laughs]. And
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that ah, you know some of those people um. Like when ?Angyer? etc that ah, you know some of those people um. Like when ?Angyer? etc
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Went on from reasonable obscurity to be fairly mainstream figures. Went on from reasonable obscurity to be fairly mainstream figures.
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So for me a lot of it was..was this business of running a music venue and one So for me a lot of it was..was this business of running a music venue and one
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that was very much about generating a, an Australian rock scene. Because it's hard to that was very much about generating a, an Australian rock scene. Because it's hard to
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imagine now unless you lived through it imagine now unless you lived through it
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and can take your mind back to Australia of the 60's. It's hard to remember and can take your mind back to Australia of the 60's. It's hard to remember
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just how..how American, Australian culture was. In those days you didn't listen to just how..how American, Australian culture was. In those days you didn't listen to
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you know, too much Australian music. You listened to American music. When you watched t.v. you know, too much Australian music. You listened to American music. When you watched t.v.
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you watched American t.v.. you watched American t.v..
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So part of So part of
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that process for me was trying to give birth to you know, a genuinely Australian genre that process for me was trying to give birth to you know, a genuinely Australian genre
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or rock music which now seems one when one wonders now how or rock music which now seems one when one wonders now how
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that can ever have been an issue. [laughs]. But it was an issue in the 60s. that can ever have been an issue. [laughs]. But it was an issue in the 60s.
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And then I guess the other strand was um. And then I guess the other strand was um.
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What I recall in those days is as-as being called the counterculture um, which What I recall in those days is as-as being called the counterculture um, which
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is a phrase that people don't use anymore but that there was a sense in Sydney is a phrase that people don't use anymore but that there was a sense in Sydney
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and I think quite a tradition going back to the 30s and I think quite a tradition going back to the 30s
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and 40s of an underbelly of the culture and 40s of an underbelly of the culture
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that was um, was a little bit more adventurous and radical imaginative than the mainstream that was um, was a little bit more adventurous and radical imaginative than the mainstream
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culture and there's a very definite feeling in the city culture and there's a very definite feeling in the city
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ah, that as I say, went back to, um, ah, the wonderful characters of the 30s, all of the, the, ah, that as I say, went back to, um, ah, the wonderful characters of the 30s, all of the, the,
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Tilly Devines and the Bea Miles. Tilly Devines and the Bea Miles.
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There was a feeling of a radical tradition, er, and I was very interested in There was a feeling of a radical tradition, er, and I was very interested in
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that. Both both in terms of um, Arts culture. that. Both both in terms of um, Arts culture.
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And perhaps less so politics and there was a whole genre there for me And perhaps less so politics and there was a whole genre there for me
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that Nimbin represented a bringing together of a those things that Nimbin represented a bringing together of a those things
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and then I guess the final one was what's become known now as as the alternative, um, and then I guess the final one was what's become known now as as the alternative, um,
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alternative scene or the New Age movement or whatever. alternative scene or the New Age movement or whatever.
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Those were terms that I think arrived a bit later, but there was also a sense that. Those were terms that I think arrived a bit later, but there was also a sense that.
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that we were in some sort of crisis. that we were in some sort of crisis.
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I mean those days we talked about holes in the ozone layer people thought you I mean those days we talked about holes in the ozone layer people thought you
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little bit mad little bit mad
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but, um, we were talking about those sort of things but, um, we were talking about those sort of things
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and we consid-seriously worried by them. And it seemed to me and we consid-seriously worried by them. And it seemed to me
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and to many other people, ah, that I worked with at that time and to many other people, ah, that I worked with at that time
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that-that ah, we were in a pretty radical situation that-that ah, we were in a pretty radical situation
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and we had to investigate some radical alternatives. and we had to investigate some radical alternatives.
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So um, to me what Nimbin threw up was just one of many possible directions So um, to me what Nimbin threw up was just one of many possible directions
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and I don't think we were conceited enough that to say and I don't think we were conceited enough that to say
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that you know this was the direction, but it did seem that that you know this was the direction, but it did seem that
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that unless we explored some, you know, pretty radical new departures and new that unless we explored some, you know, pretty radical new departures and new
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ideas, that we were probably stuck on a one way trip that was heading for a cliff. ideas, that we were probably stuck on a one way trip that was heading for a cliff.
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So I guess all of those ah, those thoughts came together as a background that So I guess all of those ah, those thoughts came together as a background that
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that um, led me into dropping out of a you know, fairly tailored career as an A.B.C. that um, led me into dropping out of a you know, fairly tailored career as an A.B.C.
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Producer Producer
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and into this somewhat less fathomable territory of a cultural entrepeneur and into this somewhat less fathomable territory of a cultural entrepeneur
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and, and director of um, a hippie festival. (What was it that attracted you to those ideals, and to the Alternative Theatre Movement?) and, and director of um, a hippie festival. (What was it that attracted you to those ideals, and to the Alternative Theatre Movement?)
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Ones always. In those things one's always attracted by a range of things. Some of Ones always. In those things one's always attracted by a range of things. Some of
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which is sort of um, petty in. (Can you start again? Please Sorry. I'll get you to start again) which is sort of um, petty in. (Can you start again? Please Sorry. I'll get you to start again)
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In terms of..of..of my own involvement in that area of things. In terms of..of..of my own involvement in that area of things.
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It's er, looking back on it's a little bit hard to discern the motivating forces. Some It's er, looking back on it's a little bit hard to discern the motivating forces. Some
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of it I think comes down to fairly small and petty things. Like you like the people. of it I think comes down to fairly small and petty things. Like you like the people.
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I remember very clearly I remember very clearly
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when I..I grew up in a fairly conservative Australian household when I..I grew up in a fairly conservative Australian household
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and quickly figured out and quickly figured out
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that the sort of people who were involved in things like theatre and the arts were that the sort of people who were involved in things like theatre and the arts were
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more interesting than the sort of people more interesting than the sort of people
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that I'd been raised with. So I naturally gravitated to those sort of people and that I'd been raised with. So I naturally gravitated to those sort of people and
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that meant hanging around the craft or going exploring various things that meant hanging around the craft or going exploring various things
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that was that was
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that was the place to be. So some of it were those more lurid motives. that was the place to be. So some of it were those more lurid motives.
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I think there were intellectual ones too. I think I think there were intellectual ones too. I think
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that Australia was coming out of a conservative post-war period. Ah, I grew up in ah, that Australia was coming out of a conservative post-war period. Ah, I grew up in ah,
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Through the 50s with sort of echoes of the 40s Through the 50s with sort of echoes of the 40s
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and Australia was a very sort of um, grey suited short back and Australia was a very sort of um, grey suited short back
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and sides sort of society. and sides sort of society.
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It didn't pay to be very different and you paid a price for it. It didn't pay to be very different and you paid a price for it.
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So I think some of it was you know, just the rebel instinct I guess of..of So I think some of it was you know, just the rebel instinct I guess of..of
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and, and I think also there was a..I was part of the post-war Baby Boom and, and I think also there was a..I was part of the post-war Baby Boom
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and I..I really think that at that point in time not just myself and I..I really think that at that point in time not just myself
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but a lot of my contemporaries really felt but a lot of my contemporaries really felt
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that er, we were in a position to change things and change things we did. that er, we were in a position to change things and change things we did.
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Whether for better or worse is [laughs] is now open to question. But there was a feeling that Whether for better or worse is [laughs] is now open to question. But there was a feeling that
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that er, that er, you know that you could actually step in. that er, that er, you know that you could actually step in.
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And you could actually be powerful enough in situations to change the course of And you could actually be powerful enough in situations to change the course of
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events and. And then change the directions. events and. And then change the directions.
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So er, that's I think what-what attracted me. That ah, that So er, that's I think what-what attracted me. That ah, that
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that intellectual side of it and the challenge that intellectual side of it and the challenge
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and the comradery of being with like minded people and and the comradery of being with like minded people and
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yeah, they were they were good times. yeah, they were they were good times.
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I suppose, young generations always find the good times I suppose, young generations always find the good times
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but a lot of it was letting your hair down. Just making the most of good times but a lot of it was letting your hair down. Just making the most of good times
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that could be had. (What sort of things were you looking for in the acts that you wanted to present?) that could be had. (What sort of things were you looking for in the acts that you wanted to present?)
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When we started. When we started.
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Evolving a festival Evolving a festival
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and a program for Nimbin. I mean I guess one of the first tenets was and a program for Nimbin. I mean I guess one of the first tenets was
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that what we didn't want to do. We were reacting against a 1971 that what we didn't want to do. We were reacting against a 1971
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Aquarius Festival that had been held on the..the ANU campus in Canberra. Aquarius Festival that had been held on the..the ANU campus in Canberra.
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When I say we were acting against, it was actually a very good, very enjoyable When I say we were acting against, it was actually a very good, very enjoyable
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festival, but it stayed very much in a traditional mould festival, but it stayed very much in a traditional mould
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and it was about dance companies on stage and theatre companies. and it was about dance companies on stage and theatre companies.
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?Using? theatres and music in halls. ?Using? theatres and music in halls.
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And I think very early in the piece we decided that, in terms of the energy And I think very early in the piece we decided that, in terms of the energy
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that we wanted to put into a festival for the, for the time and the place that that we wanted to put into a festival for the, for the time and the place that
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that kind of festival ah, really wasn't going to be what we wanted, what we were looking that kind of festival ah, really wasn't going to be what we wanted, what we were looking
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for something which was much more able to-to explore wider lifestyles for something which was much more able to-to explore wider lifestyles
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and wider questions. So culturally I set out to try and network. Which is a and wider questions. So culturally I set out to try and network. Which is a
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word that ah, I don't think I used until perhaps years after that. word that ah, I don't think I used until perhaps years after that.
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In my role as Cultural Director I was constantly travelling. I'd be in Perth on In my role as Cultural Director I was constantly travelling. I'd be in Perth on
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Monday and Adelaide on Wednesday. Monday and Adelaide on Wednesday.
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And you know back to..back to Melbourne on Saturday. In Sydney And you know back to..back to Melbourne on Saturday. In Sydney
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on Monday again on Monday again
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and, and uh, Graeme used to travel quite a bit too. Graeme Dunstan, my co-director. and, and uh, Graeme used to travel quite a bit too. Graeme Dunstan, my co-director.
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And what we would often do was, say arrive in And what we would often do was, say arrive in
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In adelaide for a weekend In adelaide for a weekend
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and we'd say 'Ok let's take out our phonebooks. Who is there in this town and we'd say 'Ok let's take out our phonebooks. Who is there in this town
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that we think is actually an interesting thinker that we think is actually an interesting thinker
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or doer?' Whether they run a health food restaurant or doer?' Whether they run a health food restaurant
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or whether they run an alternative newspaper or whether they run an alternative newspaper
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or whether they've got an interesting theatre group. Doesn't matter. or whether they've got an interesting theatre group. Doesn't matter.
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And we would constantly throw these dinner parties. And we would constantly throw these dinner parties.
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I don't quite know how we managed the food and the cooking I don't quite know how we managed the food and the cooking
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but 40 people would come along. We'd explain but 40 people would come along. We'd explain
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that we were you know, trying to do this gathering that we were you know, trying to do this gathering
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that was very much about exploring new alternatives and new cultures. Usually quite a lot that was very much about exploring new alternatives and new cultures. Usually quite a lot
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of people would er, would get up of people would er, would get up
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and sort of say 'ah you know..you know, you're still living in the '60s man. and sort of say 'ah you know..you know, you're still living in the '60s man.
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Don't you realise things? You know this doesn't happen anymore.' and would, would leave. Don't you realise things? You know this doesn't happen anymore.' and would, would leave.
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And then of the 40 people they'd be 5 people sitting there saying And then of the 40 people they'd be 5 people sitting there saying
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'When do we start? Sounds great. 'When do we start? Sounds great.
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What we do next?' What we do next?'
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And so slowly we accumulated this sort of, you know some hundreds of people And so slowly we accumulated this sort of, you know some hundreds of people
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around the country who were very interested in the thing around the country who were very interested in the thing
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and interested to the point of stopping everything else in their lives and interested to the point of stopping everything else in their lives
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and making a total commitment. And culturally I was interested in following and making a total commitment. And culturally I was interested in following
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that through to you know. Who were the people who were the instigators. Whether they that through to you know. Who were the people who were the instigators. Whether they
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were the musicians who were genuinely creating an Australian genre of music were the musicians who were genuinely creating an Australian genre of music
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or whether they were. or whether they were.
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The theatre people who were thinking past theatre in four walls. The theatre people who were thinking past theatre in four walls.
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So there was quite a network there, er, and that was both a national network So there was quite a network there, er, and that was both a national network
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and an international network. and an international network.
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It was national because we were drawing off a university circuit today It was national because we were drawing off a university circuit today
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that would be pretty limited. But in those days that would be pretty limited. But in those days
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that university circuit had inroads into the cultures of most of the Australian that university circuit had inroads into the cultures of most of the Australian
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cities pretty deeply. So that the um, the few thousand people ultimately cities pretty deeply. So that the um, the few thousand people ultimately
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that were part of that were part of
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that great find probably did represent an interesting think tank of..of people in that great find probably did represent an interesting think tank of..of people in
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Australia. And then there was an international network which was looser. Australia. And then there was an international network which was looser.
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Which would simply um..come about by every time I heard of some interesting Which would simply um..come about by every time I heard of some interesting
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organisation or performer overseas organisation or performer overseas
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that seemed in tune with Nimbin I would write them a letter. that seemed in tune with Nimbin I would write them a letter.
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And sort of this massive bank of correspondence. And basically again And sort of this massive bank of correspondence. And basically again
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Simply saying what we're doing in inviting them over Simply saying what we're doing in inviting them over
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and then sort of, you know, talking to funding bodies like the Australia Council etc and then sort of, you know, talking to funding bodies like the Australia Council etc
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to see what assistance we could line up. So..and to see what assistance we could line up. So..and
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that was all very much on a basis of what I guess I would call tribal cultures. that was all very much on a basis of what I guess I would call tribal cultures.
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Whether they were people coming from um Whether they were people coming from um
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tribal cultures such as Africa and India that were literally still living tribal cultures such as Africa and India that were literally still living
13:12

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semi-tribal lifestyle semi-tribal lifestyle
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or whether it was the urban tribes or the Philippe-petites and whatever from Paris. or whether it was the urban tribes or the Philippe-petites and whatever from Paris.
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There were you know, we're just part of this um, There were you know, we're just part of this um,
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Global counterculture. Global counterculture.
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but we gradually attracted quite a few people some of whom we actually managed to but we gradually attracted quite a few people some of whom we actually managed to
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organise air tickets or fares for organise air tickets or fares for
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and sort of you know, came semi officially. Others who just had heard about it in a and sort of you know, came semi officially. Others who just had heard about it in a
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bar in Berlin and sort of thought it sounded interesting bar in Berlin and sort of thought it sounded interesting
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and they were at a bit of a loose end so they started making their way to Australia. and they were at a bit of a loose end so they started making their way to Australia.
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So So
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that was actually quite an interesting pilgrimage. I mean in the 3 months leading that was actually quite an interesting pilgrimage. I mean in the 3 months leading
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up to Nimbin they would have been left 3-500 people living up there up to Nimbin they would have been left 3-500 people living up there
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and working around the clock on building toilets. and working around the clock on building toilets.
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Um, You know organising food chains etc. Um, You know organising food chains etc.
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With no idea of how many people were going to turn up to the festival in May. With no idea of how many people were going to turn up to the festival in May.
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I mean it could have been. I mean it could have been.
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sort of you know, a couple of thousand. It could have been 50 thousand. Nobody really sort of you know, a couple of thousand. It could have been 50 thousand. Nobody really
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knew because, no one was enrolling in advance knew because, no one was enrolling in advance
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or sending you know, [laughs] sending in their entry. All of which made the Australian Union or sending you know, [laughs] sending in their entry. All of which made the Australian Union
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students rather nervous, I must add. I think Graham students rather nervous, I must add. I think Graham
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and I were seen as the, you know, the madmen that were probably going to destroy the er, the union forever. and I were seen as the, you know, the madmen that were probably going to destroy the er, the union forever.
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And every time we'd turn around there be another knife in the back so to speak. And every time we'd turn around there be another knife in the back so to speak.
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But it did give rise to this sort of um But it did give rise to this sort of um
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I mean my guess is that something..something between 10 I mean my guess is that something..something between 10
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and 15000 people finally came through Nimbin. We did manage to you know, to organize and 15000 people finally came through Nimbin. We did manage to you know, to organize
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the food..the food chains and the first aid etc the food..the food chains and the first aid etc
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so that ah, nobody starved, nobody died, and um, it was a fairly interesting gathering. so that ah, nobody starved, nobody died, and um, it was a fairly interesting gathering.
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And one where. I think what was unique about it. And one where. I think what was unique about it.
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And what came out of And what came out of
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that whole process, as I think everyone approached it not so much in terms of..we're that whole process, as I think everyone approached it not so much in terms of..we're
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paying a gate fee and we're coming to a festival to be entertained. paying a gate fee and we're coming to a festival to be entertained.
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Everyone approached at the other way around. We're coming to make it happen. Everyone approached at the other way around. We're coming to make it happen.
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We kept saying there's no program, you're the program. We kept saying there's no program, you're the program.
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What are you going to do? And people came with that attitude. What are you going to do? And people came with that attitude.
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I mean in a remarkable way I mean in a remarkable way
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I mean..and some people whom we've had long communication and others we'd never heard of. I mean..and some people whom we've had long communication and others we'd never heard of.
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I mean this sort of, entire kind of you know, 10 I mean this sort of, entire kind of you know, 10
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or 12 piece theatre group from New Zealand called Blurter turned up in this or 12 piece theatre group from New Zealand called Blurter turned up in this
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wonderful bus that was the real sort of Magical Mystery Tour and just turned up wonderful bus that was the real sort of Magical Mystery Tour and just turned up
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and said we're here. You know. Where-Where do we perform? [laughs] And we said, you know, Wherever you like. and said we're here. You know. Where-Where do we perform? [laughs] And we said, you know, Wherever you like.
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So lots of people came in that sort of spirit and very much um So lots of people came in that sort of spirit and very much um
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I mean I remember of using..using phrases like 'you are what you eat' I mean I remember of using..using phrases like 'you are what you eat'
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and whatever. The whole, the whole line was and whatever. The whole, the whole line was
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that..This is a festival it's about culture in the wider sense. It's not about just that..This is a festival it's about culture in the wider sense. It's not about just
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bands on stages. It's about the art of how you create your living space. bands on stages. It's about the art of how you create your living space.
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It's about the art of how you cook a meal. It's about all of those things. It's about the art of how you cook a meal. It's about all of those things.
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And ah, so it was a very remarkable campsite is all I And ah, so it was a very remarkable campsite is all I
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would say. [laughs] To wander around these thousands of people camped outside this small isolated Australian would say. [laughs] To wander around these thousands of people camped outside this small isolated Australian
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country town with some of the weirdest and most wonderful. country town with some of the weirdest and most wonderful.
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Structures Structures
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and performances. There were people in tree houses. There-There were people who sort of and performances. There were people in tree houses. There-There were people who sort of
16:15

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had elaborate domes. There were people who'd sort of you know, carved out sort of had elaborate domes. There were people who'd sort of you know, carved out sort of
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holes in the ground. People in Teepees, ah, almost anything you could imagine. holes in the ground. People in Teepees, ah, almost anything you could imagine.
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And I mean part of the joy of the thing I think was was wondering around through And I mean part of the joy of the thing I think was was wondering around through
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this um, bit of a magical mystery land of all of these things this um, bit of a magical mystery land of all of these things
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and just encountering, ah, you really did have the feeling and just encountering, ah, you really did have the feeling
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that you didn't need to go to the stage to be entertained. The whole thing was an that you didn't need to go to the stage to be entertained. The whole thing was an
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entertainment. And ah, the fact entertainment. And ah, the fact
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that there were some people in there who, I mean you know, an interesting example I that there were some people in there who, I mean you know, an interesting example I
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think is Phillipe Petit who we'd heard about on the grapevine think is Phillipe Petit who we'd heard about on the grapevine
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and managed to organise a fare from the Australia Council. He's a. and managed to organise a fare from the Australia Council. He's a.
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I think he's the Blonden of this this generation. I think he's the Blonden of this this generation.
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He was the most extraordinary man in terms of balance and physical feats He was the most extraordinary man in terms of balance and physical feats
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that I've ever met. that I've ever met.
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So he came to Nimbin with no fee, with an airfare. Years later he was paid a million So he came to Nimbin with no fee, with an airfare. Years later he was paid a million
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dollars to walk between the twin towers of the financial district in New York dollars to walk between the twin towers of the financial district in New York
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and and
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when the festival Sydney tried to invite him back to Australia for the Bicentenary when the festival Sydney tried to invite him back to Australia for the Bicentenary
17:19

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in 1988 they couldn't afford him. in 1988 they couldn't afford him.
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So there were, you know. There were people of So there were, you know. There were people of
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that caliber. People who you know, on a world level I think are remarkable figures. that caliber. People who you know, on a world level I think are remarkable figures.
17:27

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And then ah, you know many people who would give up And then ah, you know many people who would give up
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and give a wonderful performance who'd you'd never heard of before and never would again. and give a wonderful performance who'd you'd never heard of before and never would again.
17:33

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All of which I think was manifesting a little bit the spirit at the festival which All of which I think was manifesting a little bit the spirit at the festival which
17:38

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said that sort of you know really we're all artists. said that sort of you know really we're all artists.
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I mean we live in a society that makes special things about it I mean we live in a society that makes special things about it
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and it turns some people in the multimillionaires and it turns some people in the multimillionaires
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but basically you know, we're all artists in some way or another. but basically you know, we're all artists in some way or another.
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and the true artist is life. (Um. Dollarbrand?) Ah and the true artist is life. (Um. Dollarbrand?) Ah
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Wouldn't. I wouldn't mind um, talking about one more performer who um. Start again? (Sorry) Wouldn't. I wouldn't mind um, talking about one more performer who um. Start again? (Sorry)
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That's ok. Another, another I think very interesting performer that That's ok. Another, another I think very interesting performer that
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that we invited that we invited
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and it was again part of this networking process, was an amazing African musician and it was again part of this networking process, was an amazing African musician
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called dollar Brand and the mechanism by which Dollar arrived at Nimbin called dollar Brand and the mechanism by which Dollar arrived at Nimbin
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I think was interesting because it says something about this networking process. I think was interesting because it says something about this networking process.
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Through all these um, dinner parties in different cities Through all these um, dinner parties in different cities
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that I mentioned earlier we eventually sort of er, accumulated quite a large number of that I mentioned earlier we eventually sort of er, accumulated quite a large number of
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people who weren't on the payroll and had no title, but it was just understood people who weren't on the payroll and had no title, but it was just understood
18:35

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that what they were doing was working full time for the Nimbin Festival that what they were doing was working full time for the Nimbin Festival
18:40

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and one of these was a very interesting South African called Bastogne. Ah, who and one of these was a very interesting South African called Bastogne. Ah, who
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knew African culture fairly well knew African culture fairly well
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and knew Australian alternative culture fairly well. and knew Australian alternative culture fairly well.
18:52

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and he was determined to bring what he felt was the most significant musical figure. and he was determined to bring what he felt was the most significant musical figure.
18:57

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Of his country which is Dollar brand. Of his country which is Dollar brand.
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We did actually again manage to get some assistance eventually from the Australia We did actually again manage to get some assistance eventually from the Australia
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Council for his fares, and he was the person Council for his fares, and he was the person
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that just ah, was the most wonderful blend I think, of traditional African music that just ah, was the most wonderful blend I think, of traditional African music
19:12

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and Modern jazz. In fact he spent his, divided his life between Swaziland and Modern jazz. In fact he spent his, divided his life between Swaziland
19:17

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and the-the major jazz venues in ah, in Europe. and the-the major jazz venues in ah, in Europe.
19:22

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Um..So again one..one of those wonderful examples of ah, of someone who came to the Um..So again one..one of those wonderful examples of ah, of someone who came to the
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festival and came uniquely, in a unique way. festival and came uniquely, in a unique way.
19:32

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And there's just one more I'd like to touch on. I mean one could probably go on for And there's just one more I'd like to touch on. I mean one could probably go on for
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an hour listing the amazing performers [laughs] who turned up at Nimbin, but the one that an hour listing the amazing performers [laughs] who turned up at Nimbin, but the one that
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that I..I think for me was the um..er.. that I..I think for me was the um..er..
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Spelled the whole thing out most magnificently ah, was a group that arrived Spelled the whole thing out most magnificently ah, was a group that arrived
19:50

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very late in the festival [coughs] and their arrival was, ah, was very special for me. very late in the festival [coughs] and their arrival was, ah, was very special for me.
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There was an incident um. Halfway through the festival where um, someone was There was an incident um. Halfway through the festival where um, someone was
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alleged to have er, been peddling hard drugs and to have er, there was a story about rape alleged to have er, been peddling hard drugs and to have er, there was a story about rape
20:05

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or whatever. All of which ultimately turned out to be fiction. or whatever. All of which ultimately turned out to be fiction.
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I think spinning off the idea that um, ah, Nimbin had happened I think spinning off the idea that um, ah, Nimbin had happened
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very soon after the election of the Whitlam government coming to power in '73. very soon after the election of the Whitlam government coming to power in '73.
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and '72 sorry. Nimbin was '73. and '72 sorry. Nimbin was '73.
20:25

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And as part of the Whitlam government coming to power it had been ah, a pretty strong And as part of the Whitlam government coming to power it had been ah, a pretty strong
20:30

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coalition between the Student Movement and the Labor Union movement. coalition between the Student Movement and the Labor Union movement.
20:35

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Ah, And although we weren't terribly aware of it. Ah, And although we weren't terribly aware of it.
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I think there are a lot of forces there that were interested in, I think there are a lot of forces there that were interested in,
20:42

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in ah, Nimbin being ah, discredited. Not for anything that had anything to do with us in ah, Nimbin being ah, discredited. Not for anything that had anything to do with us
20:48

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and what we were doing really, but because of that larger political context. and what we were doing really, but because of that larger political context.
20:51

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So um, I mean for all we could figure out this-this supposed drug incident was in fact set up. So um, I mean for all we could figure out this-this supposed drug incident was in fact set up.
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But what it resulted in was the 21st squad coming up from Sydney. The whole of But what it resulted in was the 21st squad coming up from Sydney. The whole of
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Nimbin sort of you know falling into sort of two army camps. Um, you know. Nimbin sort of you know falling into sort of two army camps. Um, you know.
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Left was the radicals on one side and and the twenty first squad on the other Left was the radicals on one side and and the twenty first squad on the other
21:10

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and then sort of a lot of-lot of people said sitting in the middle saying 'hang on and then sort of a lot of-lot of people said sitting in the middle saying 'hang on
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we must cool this out and meditate our way through it we must cool this out and meditate our way through it
21:17

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and whatever.' Ah, to the point where um, it really took over. and whatever.' Ah, to the point where um, it really took over.
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I mean the whole festival became about this incident I mean the whole festival became about this incident
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and it was blown out of all proportion. Um. and it was blown out of all proportion. Um.
21:28

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And I didn't quite know what to do about it at the time except to-to proceed And I didn't quite know what to do about it at the time except to-to proceed
21:32

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with ah, you know trying to bring the last of these-these marvelous guests which was a with ah, you know trying to bring the last of these-these marvelous guests which was a
21:37

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group from-from India called the Bauls of Bengal. group from-from India called the Bauls of Bengal.
21:40

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And the Bauls were quite unique in And the Bauls were quite unique in
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that they are one of the oldest musical traditions on earth. They go back to that they are one of the oldest musical traditions on earth. They go back to
21:46

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pre-Vedic times in India pre-Vedic times in India
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and um..What they traditionally were in been Bengal-Bengali countryside was the and um..What they traditionally were in been Bengal-Bengali countryside was the
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gypsies. The message-bringers. So even to this day gypsies. The message-bringers. So even to this day
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when the Bauls arrive in a village in India everyone downs tools when the Bauls arrive in a village in India everyone downs tools
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ar, and there's a great party is held. And everyone comes to listen to the Bauls cause they ar, and there's a great party is held. And everyone comes to listen to the Bauls cause they
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actually sing you the news of the day. And this was a tradition actually sing you the news of the day. And this was a tradition
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that had gone on, you know, for thousands of years. that had gone on, you know, for thousands of years.
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So ah, we had ah. It got to the point where I had the most famous Baul group of the day um, sitting So ah, we had ah. It got to the point where I had the most famous Baul group of the day um, sitting
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in Calcutta ready to come. in Calcutta ready to come.
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I managed to you know to-to raise the fares for them to come. Ah..But I had no visas and no I managed to you know to-to raise the fares for them to come. Ah..But I had no visas and no
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way of getting them there and outside in the fields there was this, you know. way of getting them there and outside in the fields there was this, you know.
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Really was at the point where it could have flared into riots at any moment. Really was at the point where it could have flared into riots at any moment.
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So ah, I hopped on a plane went down to Canberra. I'd never met him before but sort of um So ah, I hopped on a plane went down to Canberra. I'd never met him before but sort of um
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Knocked on the door and Knocked on the door and
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and strode into to-to visit Dr H.C. Coombs. Who was a rather remarkable gentleman who'd and strode into to-to visit Dr H.C. Coombs. Who was a rather remarkable gentleman who'd
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sort of um, he'd set up the Australia Council sort of um, he'd set up the Australia Council
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and been almost single handedly responsible for post-war reconstruction in and been almost single handedly responsible for post-war reconstruction in
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Australia after the war and at that stage was head of the Reserve Bank Australia after the war and at that stage was head of the Reserve Bank
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and a very powerful and a very powerful
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and influential man in er, in Canberra. So I walked into his office. He's sitting up there and influential man in er, in Canberra. So I walked into his office. He's sitting up there
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with this huge absolutely clean mahogany desk with this huge absolutely clean mahogany desk
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and on-on the table, he knew who I was but and on-on the table, he knew who I was but
23:09

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that was all. On the desk in front of a him he had the the local afternoon rag and the that was all. On the desk in front of a him he had the the local afternoon rag and the
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headline that read something like sort of you know, ah. headline that read something like sort of you know, ah.
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'10 000 students riot. Police beaten' '10 000 students riot. Police beaten'
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and was this absolutely sensationalist piece of gutter press on. and was this absolutely sensationalist piece of gutter press on.
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So he just-he just looked at me, looked at the paper So he just-he just looked at me, looked at the paper
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and said "I know who you are what do you want?" and said "I know who you are what do you want?"
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And I started to burble out that I've got these six people sitting at Calcutta And I started to burble out that I've got these six people sitting at Calcutta
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and I'm and-I'm trying. and I'm and-I'm trying.
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So he just picked up the phone to immigration said "Coombs here" So he just picked up the phone to immigration said "Coombs here"
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and he came back and said "your visas will be ready in half an hour." So I went back on the aeroplane and he came back and said "your visas will be ready in half an hour." So I went back on the aeroplane
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back to Nimbin. Managed to get these people into er, back to Nimbin. Managed to get these people into er,
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In via Brisbane and down to Nimbin by the..by the next day In via Brisbane and down to Nimbin by the..by the next day
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and ah, coincidentally they arrived and ah, coincidentally they arrived
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at the Nimbin festival um, at the height of the full moon at the Nimbin festival um, at the height of the full moon
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and at the height of all this. and at the height of all this.
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And drama that had been going on And drama that had been going on
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And their first performance was to get up straight underneath the full moon And their first performance was to get up straight underneath the full moon
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and just sing this absolutely.. and just sing this absolutely..
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If you've ever heard their music it's some of the most lyrical If you've ever heard their music it's some of the most lyrical
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and beautiful music you could ever hope to hear and beautiful music you could ever hope to hear
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and for me personally it was just a resolution of the whole thing. and for me personally it was just a resolution of the whole thing.
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I mean the next day for whatever reason all of that conflict had been resolved. I mean the next day for whatever reason all of that conflict had been resolved.
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We never did actually quite get to the bottom of what the drug bust and the set up We never did actually quite get to the bottom of what the drug bust and the set up
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was all about. But anyway it all went away. was all about. But anyway it all went away.
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People went back to ah, to ah, you know ah, the same feeling of you know tangible People went back to ah, to ah, you know ah, the same feeling of you know tangible
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Peace and cooperation and whatever that the festival had started with Peace and cooperation and whatever that the festival had started with
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and in my mind that ah, that magical concert under and in my mind that ah, that magical concert under
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that full moon with the Bauls of Bengal will always be one of the things that full moon with the Bauls of Bengal will always be one of the things
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that for me personally um, made the whole festival worthwhile. that for me personally um, made the whole festival worthwhile.
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I guess the other one was finally um, er. I guess the other one was finally um, er.
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Phillip Petit coming down to Sydney and before he left walking between the two pylons Phillip Petit coming down to Sydney and before he left walking between the two pylons
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of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Illegally I might add. While he was doing it of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Illegally I might add. While he was doing it
25:02

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there were policemen down the bottom trying to untie the guy-guy wires there were policemen down the bottom trying to untie the guy-guy wires
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and us saying "Well if you do that will be manslaughter" and them saying "Well [laughs] and us saying "Well if you do that will be manslaughter" and them saying "Well [laughs]
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So as he..Soon as he comes down he is going straight into a paddy wagon." but all So as he..Soon as he comes down he is going straight into a paddy wagon." but all
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that aside. Um..er, that aside. Um..er,
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He did manage to minister being the person that he was He did manage to minister being the person that he was
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that the challenge in coming to Australia was to walk between the er, the pylons of the that the challenge in coming to Australia was to walk between the er, the pylons of the
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Harbour Bridge and that image went right around the world. Harbour Bridge and that image went right around the world.
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And in fact I remember the Martin Sharp And in fact I remember the Martin Sharp
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referring to it um, in the Nation Review over a few weeks referring to it um, in the Nation Review over a few weeks
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and saying the spirit of Nimbin conquers the spirit of the Industrial Revolution and saying the spirit of Nimbin conquers the spirit of the Industrial Revolution
25:36

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And so there were I.. mean, in a way. I-I. And so there were I.. mean, in a way. I-I.
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I bring out I bring out
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that story because it illustrates I think one of the things about Nimbin that's that story because it illustrates I think one of the things about Nimbin that's
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been forgotten in the years..in the years since. been forgotten in the years..in the years since.
25:48

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That Nimbin um, infiltrated in many many ?diff?. Nimbin for me er, was never just That Nimbin um, infiltrated in many many ?diff?. Nimbin for me er, was never just
25:57

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never just a place. It was never just a country town in New South Wales never just a place. It was never just a country town in New South Wales
26:00

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Wales Wales
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and it was never just a festival of 10-15000 people gathering for 10 days. For me and it was never just a festival of 10-15000 people gathering for 10 days. For me
26:06

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it was always an idea and a movement and a-a-a group of friends it was always an idea and a movement and a-a-a group of friends
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and many other things. Ah..That..that and many other things. Ah..That..that
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Grew out of a certain cultural condition in Australia Grew out of a certain cultural condition in Australia
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that was quite unique. Was lucky enough to manifest that that was quite unique. Was lucky enough to manifest that
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and to express it at a time. and to express it at a time.
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And then I think too ah, it rose And then I think too ah, it rose
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and then went again. Some people remained physically at Nimbin and made and then went again. Some people remained physically at Nimbin and made
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that their home. Other people took that, that Nimbin experience that their home. Other people took that, that Nimbin experience
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or comradery or spirit or whatever you might want to call it. Took or comradery or spirit or whatever you might want to call it. Took
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that back to their um, their universities or their health food restaurants that back to their um, their universities or their health food restaurants
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or their musical bands or whatever. or their musical bands or whatever.
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And I think for some years then there was a certain kind of recognition of people And I think for some years then there was a certain kind of recognition of people
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who had shared ah, shared part of that experience. who had shared ah, shared part of that experience.
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When they would meet there'd be a certain When they would meet there'd be a certain
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Recognition of a certain common ground Recognition of a certain common ground
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that they'd shared this experience so it was really a lot more than just a town, I think. that they'd shared this experience so it was really a lot more than just a town, I think.
27:01

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Over the years it's become something else Over the years it's become something else
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now. Ah, I remember that in the few years after Nimbin, now. Ah, I remember that in the few years after Nimbin,
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Nimbin wasn't very respectable, I mean because of all those kind of tabloid press Nimbin wasn't very respectable, I mean because of all those kind of tabloid press
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headlines about the, the, the drug raid etc.. headlines about the, the, the drug raid etc..
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It wasn't very respectable and ah, my mother I remember never never used to tell people It wasn't very respectable and ah, my mother I remember never never used to tell people
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that I'd been involved in the Nimbin Festival. She would always sort of explain it in some other that I'd been involved in the Nimbin Festival. She would always sort of explain it in some other
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way. Until um, the Women's Weekly started running two-page kind-of photo stories on way. Until um, the Women's Weekly started running two-page kind-of photo stories on
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alternative lifestyles at Nimbin alternative lifestyles at Nimbin
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and then my mother suddenly came very interested in telling the neighbours and then my mother suddenly came very interested in telling the neighbours
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and friends that, you know that Johnny had been involved in this thing. and friends that, you know that Johnny had been involved in this thing.
27:38

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So I think it went through many different changes over the years. For a long while I So I think it went through many different changes over the years. For a long while I
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mean mean
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there were the you know, The Sydney Morning Herald was running sort of regular features 'After Nimbin there were the you know, The Sydney Morning Herald was running sort of regular features 'After Nimbin
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What?' Around the universities there was this whole kind of What?' Around the universities there was this whole kind of
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discussion of you know after Nimbin. Which said something about this the discussion of you know after Nimbin. Which said something about this the
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significance that ah, that the event had been in the lives of lots of people. significance that ah, that the event had been in the lives of lots of people.
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[pause/silence] [pause/silence]
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but it came then in, in journalistic terms I think to represent a rather handy shorthand but it came then in, in journalistic terms I think to represent a rather handy shorthand
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for alternatives, hippies, drugs. All of those things. So for alternatives, hippies, drugs. All of those things. So
28:10

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that I think now when Nimbin's dragged out sometimes. It's not a.. that I think now when Nimbin's dragged out sometimes. It's not a..
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Not a barb of the ABC or this program Not a barb of the ABC or this program
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but when Nimbin is dragged out now it's quite often dragged out as a shorthand. but when Nimbin is dragged out now it's quite often dragged out as a shorthand.
28:23

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First of a certain set of things um, which is not very fair to Nimbin First of a certain set of things um, which is not very fair to Nimbin
28:27

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or very fair to the things that it, that it represented because as I say I think or very fair to the things that it, that it represented because as I say I think
28:31

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that to, to really try that to, to really try
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and add up what Nimbin was to so many different people would be very hard. and add up what Nimbin was to so many different people would be very hard.
28:37

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I mean I, I have lived very closely through the whole thing I mean I, I have lived very closely through the whole thing
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and I couldn't very easily put into words what Nimbin was then or is now. and I couldn't very easily put into words what Nimbin was then or is now.
28:46

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And once you try and reduce those things to sort of tabloid simplicity. And once you try and reduce those things to sort of tabloid simplicity.
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You either miss the point or [laughs] you simplify the point beyond recognition. You either miss the point or [laughs] you simplify the point beyond recognition.
28:53

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But I think the thing that came out of it for me was that it, it was a gathering But I think the thing that came out of it for me was that it, it was a gathering
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that brought together a lot of very creative and, and, and important strands that brought together a lot of very creative and, and, and important strands
29:03

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and then out the other end those same strands went out again and then out the other end those same strands went out again
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but they went out reinvigorated and strengthened by the sort of dialogue but they went out reinvigorated and strengthened by the sort of dialogue
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and, and um the sort of process and, and um the sort of process
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that Nimbin was. So in many ways it was, it was what one would hope um, that Nimbin was. So in many ways it was, it was what one would hope um,
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a festival or a celebration is in a society and, and, and for me personally a festival or a celebration is in a society and, and, and for me personally
29:25

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that's what I picked up on. that's what I picked up on.
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I mean the last 20 years for me er, has been not spent being an alternative I mean the last 20 years for me er, has been not spent being an alternative
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society person or farming society person or farming
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or whatever at Nimbin. The last 20 years for me has been exploring that potential. or whatever at Nimbin. The last 20 years for me has been exploring that potential.
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What is the role of celebration? What is the role of community events? Ah. What is the role of celebration? What is the role of community events? Ah.
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Leading into what I now do which is er, Events Manager for Darling Harbour in Sydney Leading into what I now do which is er, Events Manager for Darling Harbour in Sydney
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running um, hundreds of projects a year and doing a festival every weekend. running um, hundreds of projects a year and doing a festival every weekend.
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and..and..and..Looking back over my life I've been. There have only been a few experiences and..and..and..Looking back over my life I've been. There have only been a few experiences
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since , that have had that sort of social process that since , that have had that sort of social process that
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that was Nimbin. I think that was Nimbin. I think
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the Bicentenary in Australia was one. Quite very different event. [laughs] Very different the Bicentenary in Australia was one. Quite very different event. [laughs] Very different
30:11

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involvement. Very different colouring. involvement. Very different colouring.
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But I think But I think
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that you can almost talk about um, Australia before the Bicentenary and Australia after that you can almost talk about um, Australia before the Bicentenary and Australia after
30:17

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the Bicentenary in terms of what the Bicentenary in terms of what
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that meant as a bit of a cultural watershed in terms of Australia's identity that meant as a bit of a cultural watershed in terms of Australia's identity
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and in terms of the way we, we think about them. And I think that and in terms of the way we, we think about them. And I think that
30:28

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and just as it's taken decades to work out Nimbin, and will take many more, I think and just as it's taken decades to work out Nimbin, and will take many more, I think
30:34

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it'll take a couple of decades to work out the Bicentenial thing. it'll take a couple of decades to work out the Bicentenial thing.
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I think all the talk now of of Australia becoming a republic I think all the talk now of of Australia becoming a republic
30:40

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and the increased um, awareness of Aboriginal culture and the increased um, awareness of Aboriginal culture
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and, and how White Australia sits with it's, it's, it's, it's Aboriginal past etc. and, and how White Australia sits with it's, it's, it's, it's Aboriginal past etc.
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I think all of those things are part and parcel and I think all of those things are part and parcel and
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and that's um, what..what I..what I mean by celebrations. I mean and that's um, what..what I..what I mean by celebrations. I mean
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celebration has or. It has in my mind all those overtones. It's about very deep celebration has or. It has in my mind all those overtones. It's about very deep
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Currents and cultural thinking in the society. Currents and cultural thinking in the society.
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It may appear to be just about lots of people sort of you know going out on one day It may appear to be just about lots of people sort of you know going out on one day
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and having a good time and having a good time
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but if it's genuine celebration ah, to me it's it's a very profound thing but if it's genuine celebration ah, to me it's it's a very profound thing
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that has all those um, waves of change that has all those um, waves of change
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and all those reflections to it. and all those reflections to it.
31:30

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It's interesting to think back and speculate on. It's interesting to think back and speculate on.
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where, where society's got to where, where society's got to
31:37

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when people don't use the phrase,for example, I haven't heard for years. when people don't use the phrase,for example, I haven't heard for years.
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The phrase 'counterculture' or even 'alternative society' too much anymore. The phrase 'counterculture' or even 'alternative society' too much anymore.
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And I think what's tended to happen is that a lot of the insights of er, of And I think what's tended to happen is that a lot of the insights of er, of
31:54

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that period have been taken on board by the wider society. that period have been taken on board by the wider society.
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I mentioned earlier for example that I mentioned earlier for example that
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that in 1973 to talk about a hole, a hole in the ozone layer that in 1973 to talk about a hole, a hole in the ozone layer
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and to talk about the..the er, the greenhouse effect etc. and to talk about the..the er, the greenhouse effect etc.
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I mean they've there for many years there'd been. I mean they've there for many years there'd been.
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y'know scientists and environmentalists who were aware of all those things y'know scientists and environmentalists who were aware of all those things
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and you know that at certain levels they were common knowledge. But in terms of and you know that at certain levels they were common knowledge. But in terms of
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that population in general, if you talked about those things you were either mad that population in general, if you talked about those things you were either mad
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or you were complete radical. It's been interesting to see what's happened in the or you were complete radical. It's been interesting to see what's happened in the
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last 20 years. last 20 years.
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I mean society has absorbed so many of those things. They've absorbed the threat more. I mean society has absorbed so many of those things. They've absorbed the threat more.
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I think people now realise I think people now realise
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that it's not complete madness to talk about greenhouse effects etc.. that it's not complete madness to talk about greenhouse effects etc..
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It's something that could be very real. It's something that could be very real.
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It could be just around the corner. Ah, and people have also sort of absorbed um It could be just around the corner. Ah, and people have also sort of absorbed um
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Some of the solutions. I mean, I think that right across the board Some of the solutions. I mean, I think that right across the board
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I think the environment has assumes a place in people's thinking now which ah, is radically I think the environment has assumes a place in people's thinking now which ah, is radically
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different to that which it did 20 years ago. Ah, and different to that which it did 20 years ago. Ah, and
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that is reflected as it has to be in a very sort of that is reflected as it has to be in a very sort of
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fine lifestyle ways. I mean environment isn't, isn't just about sort of um, fine lifestyle ways. I mean environment isn't, isn't just about sort of um,
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the, the mega picture. the, the mega picture.
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It's about what you do with your rubbish and how you, how you recycle things It's about what you do with your rubbish and how you, how you recycle things
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and what you do with your life. And if it's not we're all in trouble. and what you do with your life. And if it's not we're all in trouble.
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I mean I, I remember ah, leaving..leaving New York on..on one visit to New York I mean I, I remember ah, leaving..leaving New York on..on one visit to New York
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and there was this wonderful piece of graffiti outside Kennedy Airport just as I was and there was this wonderful piece of graffiti outside Kennedy Airport just as I was
33:29

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leaving New York that said 'Ecology Last Fad.' And that scared me. leaving New York that said 'Ecology Last Fad.' And that scared me.
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I mean ah, if..if..if..if we do manage to let these things like ecology and the environment I mean ah, if..if..if..if we do manage to let these things like ecology and the environment
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etc remain just kind of fashionable fad issues then the future is really bleak etc remain just kind of fashionable fad issues then the future is really bleak
33:45

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indeed. So I think that ah indeed. So I think that ah
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society is, it has absorbed most of those things. The question I think that society is, it has absorbed most of those things. The question I think that
33:52

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that we're all trying to resolve is that once absorbed that we're all trying to resolve is that once absorbed
33:55

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It's absorbed all those things are there any solutions? You know, can we arrive at a It's absorbed all those things are there any solutions? You know, can we arrive at a
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sustainable future and solve some of those things? The dilemmas are enormous. sustainable future and solve some of those things? The dilemmas are enormous.
34:04

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I mean I think we've got one part of the.. I mean I think we've got one part of the..
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The Industrial First World sort of you know, busily now trying to, trying to shed The Industrial First World sort of you know, busily now trying to, trying to shed
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some of those worst excesses some of those worst excesses
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and with the same time we've got many parts of the Third World desperate to, you and with the same time we've got many parts of the Third World desperate to, you
34:18

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know to do all that consuming that they have always been denied. know to do all that consuming that they have always been denied.
34:22

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So you've got the currents going in both directions at once So you've got the currents going in both directions at once
34:25

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and the problems are enormous. At the same time I think human ingenuity is, is and the problems are enormous. At the same time I think human ingenuity is, is
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enormous and I mean some of my heroes from that time ah, were enormous and I mean some of my heroes from that time ah, were
34:35

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and I think always will remain the Buckminster Fuller's and people like and I think always will remain the Buckminster Fuller's and people like
34:39

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that who take all that on board and say 'look there are, there are solutions.' that who take all that on board and say 'look there are, there are solutions.'
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It's a question of us becoming innovative enough It's a question of us becoming innovative enough
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and thoughtful enough to work those through. and thoughtful enough to work those through.
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And I, I don't know. I mean I think I probably sit on a little bit of a And I, I don't know. I mean I think I probably sit on a little bit of a
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fence with all of fence with all of
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that. Where we're going to be in another 20 years. Whether we're going to work some that. Where we're going to be in another 20 years. Whether we're going to work some
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of those things through or whether we're going to keep plunging headlong down a. of those things through or whether we're going to keep plunging headlong down a.
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road to oblivion I don't think anyone can say. I think we all know how, how important the road to oblivion I don't think anyone can say. I think we all know how, how important the
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issues are though. We know what some of the choices are. But it's not simple. issues are though. We know what some of the choices are. But it's not simple.
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It's tempting to sit back It's tempting to sit back
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and say well look you know. The 'if only' argument. If only people would do blah blah blah. and say well look you know. The 'if only' argument. If only people would do blah blah blah.
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That's not the way it works. Ah, it's going to be a sort of a That's not the way it works. Ah, it's going to be a sort of a
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a long and a, and a slow a long and a, and a slow
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and a gradual working through. So many of the signs are positive. and a gradual working through. So many of the signs are positive.
35:34

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But er, the problem is enormous and But er, the problem is enormous and
35:37

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I don't think it will be in my lifetime that we reach a resolution of I don't think it will be in my lifetime that we reach a resolution of
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that. I think that. I think
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that it's something the we'll carry well into the 21st century and another generation that it's something the we'll carry well into the 21st century and another generation
35:46

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will be grappling with it. will be grappling with it.
35:48

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Long before ah, long after I've shuffled off to a more peaceful Long before ah, long after I've shuffled off to a more peaceful
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existence some where else. (What about on the level of um, performance? existence some where else. (What about on the level of um, performance?
36:04

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Away from the consumer-based um, you know, culture?) Away from the consumer-based um, you know, culture?)
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In terms of how In terms of how
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that sort of um celebration theory and impulse of Nimbin has made its way that sort of um celebration theory and impulse of Nimbin has made its way
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into the larger population. I think it's, it's actually amazing to consider again. into the larger population. I think it's, it's actually amazing to consider again.
36:24

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Unless you lived through and remember accurately the Australia of the 50s, Unless you lived through and remember accurately the Australia of the 50s,
36:30

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It is very hard to realize the difference between the looseness and the freedom It is very hard to realize the difference between the looseness and the freedom
36:35

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and the colour and whatever that exists in our society now that didn't and the colour and whatever that exists in our society now that didn't
36:39

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20 & 30 years ago. I mean even just I remember 20 & 30 years ago. I mean even just I remember
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when you saw..when you saw a male in a colourful shirt. when you saw..when you saw a male in a colourful shirt.
36:45

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It was unusual and you turned It was unusual and you turned
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and looked twice. Ah, now you walk through any any sort of, any shop in town and looked twice. Ah, now you walk through any any sort of, any shop in town
36:52

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and the sort of you know, that and the sort of you know, that
36:54

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that whole area of design that whole area of design
36:57

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and whatever's influenced our, our fashions and our daily life to an extraordinary extent. and whatever's influenced our, our fashions and our daily life to an extraordinary extent.
37:02

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And to an extent that's mainly positive. It's also influenced I think very much And to an extent that's mainly positive. It's also influenced I think very much
37:08

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Our ability to celebrate and Our ability to celebrate and
37:09

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and our, and our thoughts on celebration. I think it's, it's a looser culture. and our, and our thoughts on celebration. I think it's, it's a looser culture.
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One of the things that, that I've always been deeply involved in is that One of the things that, that I've always been deeply involved in is that
37:18

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We live in a, in a. We live in a, in a.
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A European, or what was a European cultural outpost in Southeast Asia A European, or what was a European cultural outpost in Southeast Asia
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and what we did in, in the first century and three quarters and what we did in, in the first century and three quarters
37:31

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or whatever was, was simply um import European culture into or whatever was, was simply um import European culture into
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Australia, and the, the largely indoor culture that we have of concert halls Australia, and the, the largely indoor culture that we have of concert halls
37:42

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and theaters etc. and theaters etc.
37:43

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is something that was devised in the European environment and, and came out of that is something that was devised in the European environment and, and came out of that
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environment and suited environment and suited
37:49

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that environment. You live in a cold climate of course you want to go indoors. that environment. You live in a cold climate of course you want to go indoors.
37:54

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I think the challenge in Australia is to develop a culture that, that I think the challenge in Australia is to develop a culture that, that
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comes out of the Australian environment. Which is a totally different one. comes out of the Australian environment. Which is a totally different one.
38:01

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We're a much warmer subtropical culture. Ah, we're very much an outdoor culture. So the We're a much warmer subtropical culture. Ah, we're very much an outdoor culture. So the
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sort of, the sort of cultural experiences and events sort of, the sort of cultural experiences and events
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that have always interested me are outdoor celebrations that have always interested me are outdoor celebrations
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and outdoor events. For two reasons. First of all I think that sort of ah, and outdoor events. For two reasons. First of all I think that sort of ah,
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Is much more explorative of the Australian condition Is much more explorative of the Australian condition
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and it's much more you know, what's unique about Australia. and it's much more you know, what's unique about Australia.
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And secondly because they can be larger and more sociable, And secondly because they can be larger and more sociable,
38:29

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I think that those events where people do touch shoulders in the hundreds I think that those events where people do touch shoulders in the hundreds
38:32

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and in their thousands are very valuable events and I don't think I'm alone in and in their thousands are very valuable events and I don't think I'm alone in
38:38

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that. I think that right across Australian society that. I think that right across Australian society
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There's been a move in that direction. There's been a move in that direction.
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I mean the whole, there's a whole events I mean the whole, there's a whole events
38:46

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and celebrations movement in the industry in Australia now and celebrations movement in the industry in Australia now
38:49

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that there wasn't 20 years ago. that there wasn't 20 years ago.
38:51

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I mean it couldn't have been a Bicentienary 20 years ago. I mean it couldn't have been a Bicentienary 20 years ago.
38:55

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And that's changed I think the way people react to one another, the And that's changed I think the way people react to one another, the
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way they think. Again it's one of these things that um. way they think. Again it's one of these things that um.
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You've got to take a long term view of it and ask why why are people wanting You've got to take a long term view of it and ask why why are people wanting
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those experiences? those experiences?
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And how is it changing the nature of the culture? And I think there are pros And how is it changing the nature of the culture? And I think there are pros
39:17

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and cons to it. I think that increasingly we exist in a culture where most people um and cons to it. I think that increasingly we exist in a culture where most people um
39:23

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Don't relate to their neighbours or even their families. Don't relate to their neighbours or even their families.
39:25

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Perhaps as much as they did. Perhaps as much as they did.
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20 and 30 years ago. We tend to sit in, in, in chairs in a room 20 and 30 years ago. We tend to sit in, in, in chairs in a room
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and spend many hours a day watching this little square box called television and spend many hours a day watching this little square box called television
39:35

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and we relate to the world ah, fairly much and we relate to the world ah, fairly much
39:39

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electronically and by the motorcar. electronically and by the motorcar.
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And if you go to Los Angeles you'll see this taken to extremes. And if you go to Los Angeles you'll see this taken to extremes.
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And I think that's produced a civilisation where people just don't touch one And I think that's produced a civilisation where people just don't touch one
39:50

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another in flesh and blood very much the way they used to. another in flesh and blood very much the way they used to.
39:53

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When the cultural event of the week was going out to a movie theater at least When the cultural event of the week was going out to a movie theater at least
39:57

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rubbing shoulders in the crowd or going out to the Saturday rubbing shoulders in the crowd or going out to the Saturday
40:00

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Night dance. Ah..We do live in a more kind of Night dance. Ah..We do live in a more kind of
40:04

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technologically isolated and boxed in sort of society. And I think technologically isolated and boxed in sort of society. And I think
40:08

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that one of the responses to that one of the responses to
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that it's been for people to want the experience of going out that it's been for people to want the experience of going out
40:14

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and being part of a large crowds. and being part of a large crowds.
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I think I think
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that if we could shoot 50 years into the future somewhere into the sort of you know that if we could shoot 50 years into the future somewhere into the sort of you know
40:21

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the year 2040, the year 2040,
40:23

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whatever and look back on the 80s and 90s, I think whatever and look back on the 80s and 90s, I think
40:26

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that the, the unique images that the, the unique images
40:31

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and the important cultural events will be those mass people events. It's all the and the important cultural events will be those mass people events. It's all the
40:36

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sort of you know, the..the light of Aide concerts and Bicentenaries and sort of you know, the..the light of Aide concerts and Bicentenaries and
40:41

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the Tall Ships. All of those things I think say something about this period in the Tall Ships. All of those things I think say something about this period in
40:47

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time time
40:47

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and what's unique about the culture of this period of time. I guess, I mean I tend to and what's unique about the culture of this period of time. I guess, I mean I tend to
40:52

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think about a lot about think about a lot about
40:52

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that because that's the work I do. I'm involved by choice in creating community that because that's the work I do. I'm involved by choice in creating community
40:57

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celebrations and whether that's a celebration for um, 50 celebrations and whether that's a celebration for um, 50
41:01

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or 200 people or whether that's a celebration for a hundred thousand people, to me or 200 people or whether that's a celebration for a hundred thousand people, to me
41:06

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the mechanism remains the same. But I do observe that ah, that you know, the mechanism remains the same. But I do observe that ah, that you know,
41:11

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that people seem to want that experience. The fact that people seem to want that experience. The fact
41:14

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that you can get a hundred thousand people to come out for an Australia Day at that you can get a hundred thousand people to come out for an Australia Day at
41:18

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Darling Harbour whatever it is says something about a need for that. Darling Harbour whatever it is says something about a need for that.
41:22

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And so I think says, says a lot about where we're trying to find a tribal society And so I think says, says a lot about where we're trying to find a tribal society
41:27

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again. Some of us are finding it by going off again. Some of us are finding it by going off
41:31

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and living in small groups in alternative situations. Some of us are finding it by and living in small groups in alternative situations. Some of us are finding it by
41:36

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living inside the wider urban-based culture living inside the wider urban-based culture
41:39

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but trying to find ways of reconnecting. but trying to find ways of reconnecting.
41:44

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via celebrations. And I'm glad we're doing it that way because it strikes me that via celebrations. And I'm glad we're doing it that way because it strikes me that
41:49

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Societies only seem to break down all those boundaries Societies only seem to break down all those boundaries
41:53

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and work together in a hugely cooperative way for one of two reasons. and work together in a hugely cooperative way for one of two reasons.
41:58

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It happens in wars [laughs] when there's a It happens in wars [laughs] when there's a
42:00

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response to a threat. And it happens in peace time response to a threat. And it happens in peace time
42:03

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when there's a cause for celebration. when there's a cause for celebration.
42:06

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And ah, I know which one of those motivations I'd rather work on. (Can you sum up the Aquarius mission And ah, I know which one of those motivations I'd rather work on. (Can you sum up the Aquarius mission
42:17

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drive?) drive?)
42:23

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If you had to try If you had to try
42:25

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and sum up the um, the Aquarius Festival and the ideals behind it, I'd..I'd say and sum up the um, the Aquarius Festival and the ideals behind it, I'd..I'd say
42:29

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that the first one was probably the exploration of alternatives. that the first one was probably the exploration of alternatives.
42:34

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The feeling that that that we were reaching dead ends and that in in a state of ah, The feeling that that that we were reaching dead ends and that in in a state of ah,
42:40

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In a state of crisis such as I think we've probably been in, with so-we've been in In a state of crisis such as I think we've probably been in, with so-we've been in
42:44

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for so long that we've got used to it now. for so long that we've got used to it now.
42:45

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[laughs] But a society in a state of environmental crisis [laughs] But a society in a state of environmental crisis
42:49

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and social crisis in many ways. Ah I think at those times and social crisis in many ways. Ah I think at those times
42:55

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the thing that you do is..is explore a range of alternatives until you find new ways the thing that you do is..is explore a range of alternatives until you find new ways
42:60

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and find what works. and find what works.
43:01

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So I think in, in terms of the the um, ah spirit of Nimbin, the thing which would stand out So I think in, in terms of the the um, ah spirit of Nimbin, the thing which would stand out
43:08

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for me most would be that that, that one of exploring alternatives and whether they, for me most would be that that, that one of exploring alternatives and whether they,
43:12

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as I said earlier, whether they were kind of um, as I said earlier, whether they were kind of um,
43:15

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Cultural alternatives or or building alternatives or food alternatives Cultural alternatives or or building alternatives or food alternatives
43:22

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or healing alternatives it doesn't matter. or healing alternatives it doesn't matter.
43:25

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My own sort of you know approach to that was a very very wide one. My own sort of you know approach to that was a very very wide one.
43:31

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There weren't any lines. There weren't any lines.
43:32

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I wasn't about this new age ah, religion or theory or that one. I wasn't about this new age ah, religion or theory or that one.
43:37

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It was just about exploring alternatives It was just about exploring alternatives
43:39

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and it was valid to explore them all. And the second one would be in these sound like and it was valid to explore them all. And the second one would be in these sound like
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funny words now because like Nimbin itself, they've been overused so many times funny words now because like Nimbin itself, they've been overused so many times
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that um, that the words, hard to know what the words now mean. that um, that the words, hard to know what the words now mean.
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But there was a very tangible um, Spirit and cooperation and brotherhood. But there was a very tangible um, Spirit and cooperation and brotherhood.
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Togetherness there with Nimbin that ah, certainly had been fairly unique to me. Togetherness there with Nimbin that ah, certainly had been fairly unique to me.
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I haven't experienced it many times in my life I haven't experienced it many times in my life
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and I've never experienced it as strongly as through that Nimbin experience. and I've never experienced it as strongly as through that Nimbin experience.
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Why that should be so I, I'm not quite sure, but I think it has a lot to do with Why that should be so I, I'm not quite sure, but I think it has a lot to do with
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when people are working together um, towards some sort of common cause. Ah, and that when people are working together um, towards some sort of common cause. Ah, and that
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that does create ah, a real brotherhood. It could creates an intellectual affinity that does create ah, a real brotherhood. It could creates an intellectual affinity
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and it creates a sort of an emotional empathy and all of those things and it creates a sort of an emotional empathy and all of those things
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that come out in words like peace and love that come out in words like peace and love
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but actually you know manifest themselves in in in situations that work. And but actually you know manifest themselves in in in situations that work. And
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and then I guess the um.. and then I guess the um..
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The third one to me would be a sort of um, a cultural cultural dimension The third one to me would be a sort of um, a cultural cultural dimension
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that I think Nimbin did that I think Nimbin did
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did find new ways in, in terms of Australian culture did find new ways in, in terms of Australian culture
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in many different directions, and by culture I do mean fairly widely. in many different directions, and by culture I do mean fairly widely.
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I'm..I'm talking about sort of you know. I'm..I'm talking about sort of you know.
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Music in theatre, but I'm also talking much more widely. Music in theatre, but I'm also talking much more widely.
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I'm talking about the sort of ah, the way culture manifests itself right across our I'm talking about the sort of ah, the way culture manifests itself right across our
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lives in sort of you know, in in how we relate, how we eat, how we dress, how we build lives in sort of you know, in in how we relate, how we eat, how we dress, how we build
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our homes. I think that to me it was our homes. I think that to me it was
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the cultural watershed is the only way in which I could express it. the cultural watershed is the only way in which I could express it.
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It probably was a little bit the culmination of um. It probably was a little bit the culmination of um.
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In many ways although it happened in '73, in many ways it sort of belongs in the 60s [laughs]. In many ways although it happened in '73, in many ways it sort of belongs in the 60s [laughs].
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Some of our er, our critics were right. Some of our er, our critics were right.
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But in many ways it was kind of um, brought I think to to a head. But in many ways it was kind of um, brought I think to to a head.
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That post-war Australian period where um, I think that after the war that That post-war Australian period where um, I think that after the war that
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that people didn't have much choice but to put their heads down and rebuild that people didn't have much choice but to put their heads down and rebuild
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and it did sort of create a and it did sort of create a
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very conservative period and I think Nimbin was a bit of a watershed where very conservative period and I think Nimbin was a bit of a watershed where
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that came to an end. Um..And it rode a bit of a wave, has to do with the Baby that came to an end. Um..And it rode a bit of a wave, has to do with the Baby
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Boom and all those sort of things as well. Rode a bit of a wave Boom and all those sort of things as well. Rode a bit of a wave
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that I think you can talk about before Nimbin and after Nimbin. that I think you can talk about before Nimbin and after Nimbin.
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And although it's very hard to put into words, And although it's very hard to put into words,
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I think that there was a certain sort of um, cultural change that around that had I think that there was a certain sort of um, cultural change that around that had
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that had to do with the..the Whitlam government coming to power that had to do with the..the Whitlam government coming to power
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and many other layers as well. But I think from around and many other layers as well. But I think from around
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that point Australia started to see itself that point Australia started to see itself
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both in, much more in terms of an Australian culture and what both in, much more in terms of an Australian culture and what
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that meant in terms of you know, identity; that meant in terms of you know, identity;
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and identity expressed through films, music, books, sociological thought; and identity expressed through films, music, books, sociological thought;
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and also ah, one that we're still working through, and it may, ah, the year 2000 and also ah, one that we're still working through, and it may, ah, the year 2000
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may be significant. Our place in Southeast Asia, may be significant. Our place in Southeast Asia,
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that although our history was out of a that although our history was out of a
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a European cultural outpost, our reality was a European cultural outpost, our reality was
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that we were significantly a part of Southeast Asia. that we were significantly a part of Southeast Asia.
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And I think that sort of you know, from..from that time onwards, and that that.. And I think that sort of you know, from..from that time onwards, and that that..
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Nimbin didn't bring that about, but Nimbin was riding a wave Nimbin didn't bring that about, but Nimbin was riding a wave
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that was about those sort of issues that was about those sort of issues
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and a very sort of um, broad cultural change which will continue on and a very sort of um, broad cultural change which will continue on
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and my fervent hope is and my fervent hope is
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that we declare a Republic in Australia on the first of January of the year 2000. that we declare a Republic in Australia on the first of January of the year 2000.
47:16

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I think [laughs] a very suitable time to put a full stop to that century I think [laughs] a very suitable time to put a full stop to that century
47:21

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and say ok. Um and say ok. Um
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New millennium. Er. New vision. New place in the world. (So that could be the new Nimbin in the next?) New millennium. Er. New vision. New place in the world. (So that could be the new Nimbin in the next?)
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I don't know whether there will ever be another Nimbin or whether I don't know whether there will ever be another Nimbin or whether
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there needs to be another Nimbin. I mean it's, it's quite there needs to be another Nimbin. I mean it's, it's quite
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interesting. Er, um. I think interesting. Er, um. I think
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the..the celebrations of. (Sorry John) the..the celebrations of. (Sorry John)