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[Jan Oliver] I, well ok this might be a little...I was very interested in the fact [Jan Oliver] I, well ok this might be a little...I was very interested in the fact
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that I wanted equality. Um. Equality in parenting and shared parenting and al- that I wanted equality. Um. Equality in parenting and shared parenting and al-
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-though we had a commitment to that - those notions. -though we had a commitment to that - those notions.
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I found that with young children that wasn't necessarily the case I found that with young children that wasn't necessarily the case
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and there was a sad sort of sinking back to the notion a bit that and there was a sad sort of sinking back to the notion a bit that
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that the mother would look after the children and that that the mother would look after the children and that
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that ah, you know men would go out and be active in the world. that ah, you know men would go out and be active in the world.
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Um. So it's very..Building my own house was a really interesting time for me to start Um. So it's very..Building my own house was a really interesting time for me to start
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negotiating that. I was going on to say look, I don't want to in any way negotiating that. I was going on to say look, I don't want to in any way
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Undermine the importance and the joy of nurturing young children. Undermine the importance and the joy of nurturing young children.
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It wasn't in any way for me a need to move away from Sally It wasn't in any way for me a need to move away from Sally
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and Jonah, but more for me to claim my rights to equality and Jonah, but more for me to claim my rights to equality
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and to encourage others to part-specifically Sally and Jonah's and to encourage others to part-specifically Sally and Jonah's
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dad to participate in equal parenting. dad to participate in equal parenting.
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Um. No. I think Um. No. I think
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that's a whole other dialogue. The importance of nurturance of young children. that's a whole other dialogue. The importance of nurturance of young children.
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And you know I think the longer And you know I think the longer
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that they're really truly nurtured and kept away from institutions like school. that they're really truly nurtured and kept away from institutions like school.
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Anyway building the house. So I decided to build a house. So I did. Anyway building the house. So I decided to build a house. So I did.
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And I got tremendous support from my extended family. And I got tremendous support from my extended family.
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I had virtually no money. I had virtually no money.
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Um. And well I got tremendous support for my extended family Um. And well I got tremendous support for my extended family
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and great support from Sally and Jonah. Yes. I mean Jonah. Sally and great support from Sally and Jonah. Yes. I mean Jonah. Sally
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and Jonah were very helpful. They used to help me saw through the veranda boards and Jonah were very helpful. They used to help me saw through the veranda boards
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and through the you know, [laughs] all sorts of things. They learned. They learned to see me in a different and through the you know, [laughs] all sorts of things. They learned. They learned to see me in a different
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light to many other children I think. That their mother was a builder light to many other children I think. That their mother was a builder
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and their mother was active in providing her own shelter and things like that. and their mother was active in providing her own shelter and things like that.
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And I loved building. I found that I loved the activity of building. And I loved building. I found that I loved the activity of building.
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I found it very. I found it very liberating if I can use that fairly abused word. I found it very. I found it very liberating if I can use that fairly abused word.
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Because I really came into my own power. I could make all my own decisions Because I really came into my own power. I could make all my own decisions
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myself. I could have this building exactly as I wanted it. myself. I could have this building exactly as I wanted it.
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I could build in whatever way I wanted. Um. And I can do it. I could build in whatever way I wanted. Um. And I can do it.
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It really wasn't so difficult It really wasn't so difficult
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and it really was for me the beginning of a lot of debunking of male myths. I think and it really was for me the beginning of a lot of debunking of male myths. I think
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you know medicine's been very owned by men. you know medicine's been very owned by men.
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I think education's been very owned by men and I think I think education's been very owned by men and I think
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shelter has been very own my men. I say in recent times. shelter has been very own my men. I say in recent times.
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Of course because traditionally and I'm talking about you know, hundreds Of course because traditionally and I'm talking about you know, hundreds
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and thousands of years ago. Women have been all of those things. The healers and thousands of years ago. Women have been all of those things. The healers
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and the witches. The educators and the, and the builders. And the gardeners. and the witches. The educators and the, and the builders. And the gardeners.
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So it's great for me to do So it's great for me to do
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that because it was really in keeping with my feminist, growing feminist ideas that because it was really in keeping with my feminist, growing feminist ideas
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and ideology and. and ideology and.
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A lot of support from my friends. A lot of support from my friends.
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It helped me to be very organised. A lot of the people on the farm It helped me to be very organised. A lot of the people on the farm
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or several of the people on the farm would come and help me on a Saturday or several of the people on the farm would come and help me on a Saturday
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and I would just organise everything. Get everything and I would just organise everything. Get everything
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and then I just use this, again generously donated labour to put all the pieces, you and then I just use this, again generously donated labour to put all the pieces, you
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know, put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together and tidy it up the next day know, put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together and tidy it up the next day
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and on I'd go for, you know. It was just great. I loved it. and on I'd go for, you know. It was just great. I loved it.
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Many of my women friends came and helped, ah and then started coming Many of my women friends came and helped, ah and then started coming
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and asking "how do you do this Jan, how do you do that?" um. and. I'd and asking "how do you do this Jan, how do you do that?" um. and. I'd
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either tell them what I knew which I learnt from other builders, watching other either tell them what I knew which I learnt from other builders, watching other
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buildings being built. Running down every Friday afternoon at 5 o'clock buildings being built. Running down every Friday afternoon at 5 o'clock
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and consulting Bill Chart, the local builder, and saying "How much space do you need and consulting Bill Chart, the local builder, and saying "How much space do you need
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around a window?" "How many millimeters do you leave you know, in the gap for a door?" around a window?" "How many millimeters do you leave you know, in the gap for a door?"
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and various things like that. and various things like that.
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So I'd gain. I'd get my knowledge from books and from people and from builders So I'd gain. I'd get my knowledge from books and from people and from builders
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and everywhere I could and then I was really happy to pass and everywhere I could and then I was really happy to pass
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that information on. Again I. I mentioned earlier I really believe that full that information on. Again I. I mentioned earlier I really believe that full
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information is, is liberation in a way or is the way to growth. information is, is liberation in a way or is the way to growth.
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So I thought "Well there's no reason So I thought "Well there's no reason
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that I should hold this, this information secret to myself and still that I should hold this, this information secret to myself and still
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and become part of the masons type club. and become part of the masons type club.
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So I was really happy to pass that information onto women and then. Um. So I was really happy to pass that information onto women and then. Um.
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So many women started asking me about how do you do this or how do you do that. So many women started asking me about how do you do this or how do you do that.
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I thought. I oughta just run a women's building course. I mean [laughs] I thought. I oughta just run a women's building course. I mean [laughs]
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That might sound sort of very presumptuous and bold That might sound sort of very presumptuous and bold
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but. You know we decided to start a school. but. You know we decided to start a school.
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Primary school so Primary school so
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that our kids could be educated in a, in a more caring, loving, creative way. So we'd done that our kids could be educated in a, in a more caring, loving, creative way. So we'd done
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that. Ah, and I thought well you know. Start a school. That's, you know, running courses that. Ah, and I thought well you know. Start a school. That's, you know, running courses
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for kids, why not start for kids, why not start
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and I've been teaching carpentry and joinery in the school to kids particularly and I've been teaching carpentry and joinery in the school to kids particularly
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interested in teaching the young girls those skills. interested in teaching the young girls those skills.
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So I sort of fronted up to the local TAFE college So I sort of fronted up to the local TAFE college
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and sort of said "Oh. I'd like to run a building course for women, please. How do I go about this?" [laughs] and sort of said "Oh. I'd like to run a building course for women, please. How do I go about this?" [laughs]
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And they were rather. You know the chap Bill Woods was rather sort of And they were rather. You know the chap Bill Woods was rather sort of
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shocked and surprised and scratched his head and sort of. You know. So I did. And that was great. shocked and surprised and scratched his head and sort of. You know. So I did. And that was great.
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That was um. And I ran building courses for women for many years. Not full time. That was um. And I ran building courses for women for many years. Not full time.
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But every time I felt there was a need within any community. Like the Nimbin But every time I felt there was a need within any community. Like the Nimbin
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community or broader other communities. Um. Once I gathered enough women together. community or broader other communities. Um. Once I gathered enough women together.
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It wasn't that I gathered them. The sort of. The interest would start to um. It wasn't that I gathered them. The sort of. The interest would start to um.
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Sort of simmer and I'd say "Well gather a group of you know 12-20 women around you Sort of simmer and I'd say "Well gather a group of you know 12-20 women around you
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and when you think you've got the numbers we'll approach the college and when you think you've got the numbers we'll approach the college
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and we were very lucky. It was in those days of supporting women's education and we were very lucky. It was in those days of supporting women's education
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and in fact encouraging women's education, particularly non-traditional so-called and in fact encouraging women's education, particularly non-traditional so-called
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non-traditional areas. non-traditional areas.
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So I was very lucky to continue to be able to get funding to do that. So I was very lucky to continue to be able to get funding to do that.
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And in later years I've gone on to run a couple of courses which were not funded by And in later years I've gone on to run a couple of courses which were not funded by
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the state government institution. the state government institution.
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or government institution, but funded privately by women. or government institution, but funded privately by women.
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Things like that. So that's been fun. Things like that. So that's been fun.
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Yeah. [Interviewer] Um. What about the chauvinism generally in those early days? Some women have said to me that their city feminist friends would come to the communities and Yeah. [Interviewer] Um. What about the chauvinism generally in those early days? Some women have said to me that their city feminist friends would come to the communities and
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[Jan Oliver] Yeah. [Interviewer] traditional role, roles that were being undertaken in those communities. [Jan Oliver] Yep. It's spot on. [Jan Oliver] Yeah. [Interviewer] traditional role, roles that were being undertaken in those communities. [Jan Oliver] Yep. It's spot on.
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There was a lot of sh-. There was a lot of. Is it chauvinism? There was a lot of sh-. There was a lot of. Is it chauvinism?
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Chauvinism. I suppose we called it chauvinism in those days. Chauvinism. I suppose we called it chauvinism in those days.
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It's a word I've almost tended to stop using I think. It's a word I've almost tended to stop using I think.
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Um. Yes. The notion of barefoot and pregnant for women. In long frocks as well. Um. Yes. The notion of barefoot and pregnant for women. In long frocks as well.
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Was prevalent. I mean it was one of the issues Was prevalent. I mean it was one of the issues
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that I really felt uncomfortable about. I didn't necessarily feel uncomfortable that I really felt uncomfortable about. I didn't necessarily feel uncomfortable
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about it within my own household sphere, because we had some fairly strong women in about it within my own household sphere, because we had some fairly strong women in
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that household. Um. We all had our deficiencies and our major hang ups that household. Um. We all had our deficiencies and our major hang ups
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and things like that and things like that
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but basically we, we, we encouraged each other in our full you know, full pursuit of our but basically we, we, we encouraged each other in our full you know, full pursuit of our
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interests. Um. But yeah. That was very. It still alarms me. It still horrifies me interests. Um. But yeah. That was very. It still alarms me. It still horrifies me
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that in the so-called alternative society, that that in the so-called alternative society, that
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that there is such male chauvinism to use that word. that there is such male chauvinism to use that word.
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There are such disrespect for women's equal rights. There are such disrespect for women's equal rights.
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I mean you know we still live in a society where women don't get equal pay. I mean you know we still live in a society where women don't get equal pay.
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You know women still get something like 67 per cent of the male average wage. You know women still get something like 67 per cent of the male average wage.
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You know that's the broader community, and I don't think You know that's the broader community, and I don't think
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that the alternative society has you know, based Nimbin, did very much for women's that the alternative society has you know, based Nimbin, did very much for women's
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rights that way at all. I know that a lot of women have gained their power rights that way at all. I know that a lot of women have gained their power
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and gone ahead and built houses and fixed cars and been leaders of communities and. and gone ahead and built houses and fixed cars and been leaders of communities and.
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are community leaders are community leaders
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and we even have fortunately now three women in Lismore City Council who are Alder- and we even have fortunately now three women in Lismore City Council who are Alder-
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women. women.
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Even though they called Aldermen still. I mean those things have occurred Even though they called Aldermen still. I mean those things have occurred
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but I don't really even see there's still very much shift of consciousness amongst most but I don't really even see there's still very much shift of consciousness amongst most
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of the population around women's rights. of the population around women's rights.
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It's you know there's this, this, this sort of um. It's you know there's this, this, this sort of um.
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There's this sickness that strikes relationships There's this sickness that strikes relationships
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quite often when people, you know heterosexual couples have children. quite often when people, you know heterosexual couples have children.
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And it's sort of like. I have this notion about radicals. I'll talk about, with my notion of And it's sort of like. I have this notion about radicals. I'll talk about, with my notion of
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radicals. Many of us were radicals. We were seen as radicals. We were quite radical. We radicals. Many of us were radicals. We were seen as radicals. We were quite radical. We
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were doing radically different things and one of my notions were doing radically different things and one of my notions
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or one of my theories about radicals is that. Come a certain age time. or one of my theories about radicals is that. Come a certain age time.
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And it's often around about 30. People who are radical in their youth. And it's often around about 30. People who are radical in their youth.
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Sort of get confronted with this. Sort of get confronted with this.
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Energy wave or something Energy wave or something
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and they go "oh my god have I still got to keep making up the rules for myself about and they go "oh my god have I still got to keep making up the rules for myself about
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relationships about equality about work about social issues. All relationships about equality about work about social issues. All
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that sort of thing." And there's sort of you know, there's sort of a certain fatigue that sort of thing." And there's sort of you know, there's sort of a certain fatigue
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sometimes hits people about that age. sometimes hits people about that age.
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And I think a lot of people who have been radical choose to continue to be radical. And I think a lot of people who have been radical choose to continue to be radical.
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And you know you see, see us. I mean I'm not 60 or 70 yet And you know you see, see us. I mean I'm not 60 or 70 yet
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but you know I hope I'm still fairly alert and prepared to change at but you know I hope I'm still fairly alert and prepared to change at
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that age. 80. 90. I have this vision of me still there doing that 90. Hopefully. that age. 80. 90. I have this vision of me still there doing that 90. Hopefully.
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And I hope everybody kicks me along. Particularly the kids to do that. And I hope everybody kicks me along. Particularly the kids to do that.
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Um. So I think some people stay radical Um. So I think some people stay radical
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and are prepared to live quite a difficult life at times because you have to keep and are prepared to live quite a difficult life at times because you have to keep
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making up the rules. There are no appropriate role models anywhere. Nowhere in the world. making up the rules. There are no appropriate role models anywhere. Nowhere in the world.
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You know. I mean Russia's crumbled You know. I mean Russia's crumbled
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and it was never, it never got to you know, treat women equally or anything like and it was never, it never got to you know, treat women equally or anything like
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that. Um. So there's nowhere really that we see that. Um. So there's nowhere really that we see
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that as our. There's no role models for us so we have to keep making it up. that as our. There's no role models for us so we have to keep making it up.
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I have to keep making up how to parent my teenage children in a way I have to keep making up how to parent my teenage children in a way
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that I hope will be. that I hope will be.
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Lead to us having a long, long term loving relationship with each other. Lead to us having a long, long term loving relationship with each other.
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And so we have to make it up. And I'm prepared to do that. And so we have to make it up. And I'm prepared to do that.
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But it takes a lot of energy that takes a lot of time But it takes a lot of energy that takes a lot of time
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and it takes a lot of research and reading and talking and it takes a lot of research and reading and talking
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and actually my god you have to actually talk with people about these ideas you and actually my god you have to actually talk with people about these ideas you
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know. You can't take anything as given. Right. And here are know. You can't take anything as given. Right. And here are
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Sally and Jonah giving a perfect example of sisterly brotherly love very nice. Sally and Jonah giving a perfect example of sisterly brotherly love very nice.
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Thank you very much. [laughs] And there are others Thank you very much. [laughs] And there are others
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who get hit by this energy wave, if you will. Who go "Oh. It's too hard." who get hit by this energy wave, if you will. Who go "Oh. It's too hard."
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Basically. I mean it's not a conscious decision quite often for these people. Basically. I mean it's not a conscious decision quite often for these people.
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And who basically have come from very conservative backgrounds And who basically have come from very conservative backgrounds
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and our radic-those radic-people's radical years have been a reaction against and our radic-those radic-people's radical years have been a reaction against
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conservatism. And basically it's easier just to follow the model conservatism. And basically it's easier just to follow the model
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that mum and dad, aunt, uncle, grandma, grandpa. Whoever it is set. that mum and dad, aunt, uncle, grandma, grandpa. Whoever it is set.
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A lot of you know our great and esteemed radical leaders of the time have sunk A lot of you know our great and esteemed radical leaders of the time have sunk
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back into what I would consider to be fairly conservative [sighs] back into what I would consider to be fairly conservative [sighs]
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ways. I mean I wanted to decide boring there ways. I mean I wanted to decide boring there
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but there's a real value judgment isn't it. but there's a real value judgment isn't it.
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You know. And I try not to be too.. You know. And I try not to be too..
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But it looks to me like these people are actually not particularly stimulated. But it looks to me like these people are actually not particularly stimulated.
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That's what I mean about boring. They seem bored. That's what I mean about boring. They seem bored.
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They seem fairly unstimulated and seem to spend a lot of time They seem fairly unstimulated and seem to spend a lot of time
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and energy trying to make life look very exciting doing essentially, great time and energy trying to make life look very exciting doing essentially, great time
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consuming, but fairly unstimulating things. consuming, but fairly unstimulating things.
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That's about radicals. [laughs] That's about radicals. [laughs]
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I've never been very radical but maybe I, I don't know. I've never been very radical but maybe I, I don't know.
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I sometimes don't think I'm radical when other people say you are. I sometimes don't think I'm radical when other people say you are.
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I don't know the answer to that. I don't really care. I don't know the answer to that. I don't really care.
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I just hope I keep growing and changing I just hope I keep growing and changing
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and I hope people keep boot me along the way to do it. and I hope people keep boot me along the way to do it.
11:47

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You know. [Interviewer] So you're still constructing utopia? [Jan Oliver] I'm still constructing u- constructing utopia. You know. [Interviewer] So you're still constructing utopia? [Jan Oliver] I'm still constructing u- constructing utopia.
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Oh I don't think I'd be as um. Arrogant as to say that. I know Oh I don't think I'd be as um. Arrogant as to say that. I know
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that life can be pleasant. I know that life can be fulfilling, interesting. that life can be pleasant. I know that life can be fulfilling, interesting.
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I know it can be sur-I My life can be surrounded by people who are loving, fun, I know it can be sur-I My life can be surrounded by people who are loving, fun,
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stimulating, interesting. I know the environment can be beautiful. stimulating, interesting. I know the environment can be beautiful.
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I mean that's one of the other things that I've been passionately involved with I mean that's one of the other things that I've been passionately involved with
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and that's the, en- the protection of the environment. and that's the, en- the protection of the environment.
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And that was a whole other area I suppose. So And that was a whole other area I suppose. So
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I think that. Am I still. Am I trying to create a utopia? I think that. Am I still. Am I trying to create a utopia?
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I think utopia exists in a way. I mean, you know, the world is beautiful. I think utopia exists in a way. I mean, you know, the world is beautiful.
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Humans are beautiful. Other species are beautiful. Humans are beautiful. Other species are beautiful.
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All we have to do is actually um, get away from our egocentric selves in a way All we have to do is actually um, get away from our egocentric selves in a way
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and be generous and, and be willing to move over and let and be generous and, and be willing to move over and let
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that shine around us. Really. I know that sounds. that shine around us. Really. I know that sounds.
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Now see that's why I'm a hippie. Because to say things like that's really cosmic. Far out Now see that's why I'm a hippie. Because to say things like that's really cosmic. Far out
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man. You know. Um. It is. I'm quite. I'm quite um. Spiritual in that ex- to man. You know. Um. It is. I'm quite. I'm quite um. Spiritual in that ex- to
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that extent. I always have been I think. And um. [Interviewer] Still got a sense of humour that extent. I always have been I think. And um. [Interviewer] Still got a sense of humour
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[Jan Oliver] Still got a sense of humour? You got to have a sense of humor. [Jan Oliver] Still got a sense of humour? You got to have a sense of humor.
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I mean you know. I take myself very seriously. I mean you know. I take myself very seriously.
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You know I take myself very seriously. You know I take myself very seriously.
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I take my humor very seriously. There's a wonderful t-shirt a friend of ours on the farm I take my humor very seriously. There's a wonderful t-shirt a friend of ours on the farm
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used to read which really used to stir so many people and it said. used to read which really used to stir so many people and it said.
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I am a humorless feminist I am a humorless feminist
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and I mean I just used to get such a chuckle every time Anne wore that t-shirt and I mean I just used to get such a chuckle every time Anne wore that t-shirt
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and and
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and women [laughs] [Interviewer] Um. Can you talk about um, was it Jonah? Sorry. The birth. The home birth. Birth home-birth? [Jan Oliver] Aww... and women [laughs] [Interviewer] Um. Can you talk about um, was it Jonah? Sorry. The birth. The home birth. Birth home-birth? [Jan Oliver] Aww...
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When. Aww. Of course I can talk about home birth number 7. When. Aww. Of course I can talk about home birth number 7.
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Jonah Oliver Geek. Commonly known as Bones. Course I can talk about that. Jonah Oliver Geek. Commonly known as Bones. Course I can talk about that.
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Now look at my lovely daughter Sal and I can also talk about her birth which was Now look at my lovely daughter Sal and I can also talk about her birth which was
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beautiful too. It's ok is it darling? [laughs] Thanks. beautiful too. It's ok is it darling? [laughs] Thanks.
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As long as I have a little bit about your dressing gown. I will. [laughs] Ok. As long as I have a little bit about your dressing gown. I will. [laughs] Ok.
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I decided to have a my second child. Or we decided to have our second child. I decided to have a my second child. Or we decided to have our second child.
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That's Sal and Joan's dad and I. And we decided to have that child at home. To have That's Sal and Joan's dad and I. And we decided to have that child at home. To have
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that birth at home. And so we went about gaining support for that. that birth at home. And so we went about gaining support for that.
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Now I might add here that I lived at Now I might add here that I lived at
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that time with people who were involved in the medical psychology, social work that time with people who were involved in the medical psychology, social work
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professions professions
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and they weren't too keen about it. It was a bit of a freak out. The idea of having a baby and they weren't too keen about it. It was a bit of a freak out. The idea of having a baby
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at home. I was very clear. Part of having a baby at home for me was about taking at home. I was very clear. Part of having a baby at home for me was about taking
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responsibility for myself and for my life. responsibility for myself and for my life.
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And that's what a lot of my whole life has been about And that's what a lot of my whole life has been about
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and that's why Nimbin's been so wonderful. and that's why Nimbin's been so wonderful.
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Because I've had Because I've had
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that opportunity to take responsibility for all aspects of my life. So I was prepared that opportunity to take responsibility for all aspects of my life. So I was prepared
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to take responsibility for the birth of my second child. And by to take responsibility for the birth of my second child. And by
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that I meant I was prepared to make decisions around how it would be, who would be that I meant I was prepared to make decisions around how it would be, who would be
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there. What I'd do. there. What I'd do.
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The usual um, fears that any any um. The usual um, fears that any any um.
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Pregnant woman goes through and father is. You know what if the child is deformed Pregnant woman goes through and father is. You know what if the child is deformed
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or not normal or dead or you know. But basically if it's, if it's a deformed child or not normal or dead or you know. But basically if it's, if it's a deformed child
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what will I do? And I was very clear about that. I'd gone through what will I do? And I was very clear about that. I'd gone through
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that with Sal's birth. I had made the doctor who was my um, birth assistant at her birth that with Sal's birth. I had made the doctor who was my um, birth assistant at her birth
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made him promise made him promise
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that if my child, my first born child was born with obvious gross physical that if my child, my first born child was born with obvious gross physical
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disabilities disabilities
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that would require gross amounts of medical intervention to continue to sustain the that would require gross amounts of medical intervention to continue to sustain the
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life of that child, that he would promise he wouldn't take life of that child, that he would promise he wouldn't take
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that medical intervention. that medical intervention.
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Now you know he quoted hippocratic oaths to me and all sorts of things. Now you know he quoted hippocratic oaths to me and all sorts of things.
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But finally I got him to do that. But finally I got him to do that.
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I mean you know. That was a very big thing I mean you know. That was a very big thing
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and it was a turning point in his career he said for me for him, to actually realise and it was a turning point in his career he said for me for him, to actually realise
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that it was not against the hippocratic oath to let women take responsibility for that it was not against the hippocratic oath to let women take responsibility for
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their birthing process to that extent. their birthing process to that extent.
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So I was prepared to take those responsibilities So I was prepared to take those responsibilities
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and make those decisions around the birth of my second child. and make those decisions around the birth of my second child.
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And I made that very clear to our extended family members so And I made that very clear to our extended family members so
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that they didn't feel responsibilities that. that they didn't feel responsibilities that.
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As for example, the doctor in our household felt might fall his way As for example, the doctor in our household felt might fall his way
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or thought is due. So we went about having a baby at home or thought is due. So we went about having a baby at home
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and you know creating the nest, getting um, Carol Stannard. No. Carol Elliot. and you know creating the nest, getting um, Carol Stannard. No. Carol Elliot.
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and Norman Stannard and Dorothy Smith to be a support team actually midwife and Norman Stannard and Dorothy Smith to be a support team actually midwife
16:45

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and support team. and support team.
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And I went into the labor and Jonah was born. And I went into the labor and Jonah was born.
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Was a beautiful birth. It was full moon. Was a beautiful birth. It was full moon.
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How cosmic. How beautiful. Full moon in Scorpio. How cosmic. How beautiful. Full moon in Scorpio.
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There you are. There's one for the astrologers. There you are. There's one for the astrologers.
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And there were nine people at Jonah's birth. Sal of course was there. Sal was And there were nine people at Jonah's birth. Sal of course was there. Sal was
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23 months old. 23 months old.
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Nearly two at that time Nearly two at that time
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and she had her loving other mother, Beth with her as her support person. and she had her loving other mother, Beth with her as her support person.
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We woke Sal up. Jonah was born at 6:38 in the morning We woke Sal up. Jonah was born at 6:38 in the morning
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and went into labor about 12 that night, the night before. And and went into labor about 12 that night, the night before. And
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when it was obvious that the baby was coming soon. when it was obvious that the baby was coming soon.
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Sally was woken up Sally was woken up
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and there she was able to see her brother brought into the world. and there she was able to see her brother brought into the world.
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She knew all about the, the physicality of intercourse, birth, and all the rest. Everything. She knew all about the, the physicality of intercourse, birth, and all the rest. Everything.
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Again you know knowledge is power or something like that. Again you know knowledge is power or something like that.
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So she was totally aware of what was happening. Um. So she was totally aware of what was happening. Um.
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She knew where Jonah was going to come out and She knew where Jonah was going to come out and
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that there might be blood, there might be water. All of those things so I don't think that there might be blood, there might be water. All of those things so I don't think
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she was particular phased. She certainly didn't seem to be about it. she was particular phased. She certainly didn't seem to be about it.
17:57

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And you know I have this image of Sally in her little red dressing gown with the And you know I have this image of Sally in her little red dressing gown with the
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ladybird buttons ladybird buttons
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down the front the held lovingly by my my sister Beth down the front the held lovingly by my my sister Beth
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as Jonah came into the world. I mean. as Jonah came into the world. I mean.
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And there were these 9 people who fell in love with this baby as he literally And there were these 9 people who fell in love with this baby as he literally
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popped out. Put his little hand out. Grabbed Carol's finger popped out. Put his little hand out. Grabbed Carol's finger
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and came into the world and came into the world
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and then the rest of the family, the rest of the farm came within minutes of his and then the rest of the family, the rest of the farm came within minutes of his
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birth and all flocked around and goo-gaaed and all the rest of it. birth and all flocked around and goo-gaaed and all the rest of it.
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I mean what I want to say about that was that it was just so wonderful. I mean what I want to say about that was that it was just so wonderful.
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The experience with Sally had been short. It had been my first birth. The experience with Sally had been short. It had been my first birth.
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I'd been in hospital. I'd felt very isolated. I was the only I'd been in hospital. I'd felt very isolated. I was the only
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woman who was demand-feeding her child in this hospital environment. Then I woman who was demand-feeding her child in this hospital environment. Then I
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discovered this one other woman. discovered this one other woman.
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Fortunately who'd had six children Fortunately who'd had six children
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and who actually taught me how to demand-feed my child and who actually taught me how to demand-feed my child
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and I learned how to demand feed my child. and I learned how to demand feed my child.
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That is, you had to get the nurses to bring that child to you That is, you had to get the nurses to bring that child to you
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when the child woke up when the child woke up
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and cried, because we weren't allowed to have our babies next to us during the night. and cried, because we weren't allowed to have our babies next to us during the night.
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That was a trauma for me. That was a trauma for me.
18:58

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All I wanted was my baby next to me and I would be all right, thank you very much. All I wanted was my baby next to me and I would be all right, thank you very much.
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So the experience was that, from that was I learned So the experience was that, from that was I learned
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that I really wanted my baby with me when it was born. Thanks. that I really wanted my baby with me when it was born. Thanks.
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After it was born After it was born
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and so that's wh-why one of the reasons I chose to have it at home, Jonah at home. and so that's wh-why one of the reasons I chose to have it at home, Jonah at home.
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It was wonderful because, ok I'd gone to bed the night before. I'd gone into labor. It was wonderful because, ok I'd gone to bed the night before. I'd gone into labor.
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I'd had a baby at 6:38 in the morning. I'd got up afterwards and had a shower. I'd had a baby at 6:38 in the morning. I'd got up afterwards and had a shower.
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I'd rung the family in Sydney at about 8 o'clock and said "Oh I've got this lovely little baby boy you know." I'd rung the family in Sydney at about 8 o'clock and said "Oh I've got this lovely little baby boy you know."
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And I'd gone back rested for the rest of the day. But I wandered around you know. And I'd gone back rested for the rest of the day. But I wandered around you know.
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Went and said hello to the goats and the cows and the chooks and the geese Went and said hello to the goats and the cows and the chooks and the geese
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and the ducks and the veggie garden. And I mean just seemed to me and the ducks and the veggie garden. And I mean just seemed to me
19:37

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that home birth was just a part of life instead of it being this great big "OHHH" you know. that home birth was just a part of life instead of it being this great big "OHHH" you know.
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It was really very eventful. But my life went on as well. Very easily. It was really very eventful. But my life went on as well. Very easily.
19:49

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I wasn't estranged I wasn't estranged
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or taken away from my daughter. She was there. She sort of sat there and held him or taken away from my daughter. She was there. She sort of sat there and held him
19:55

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and touched him and pushed and probed and tasted him. I can remember and touched him and pushed and probed and tasted him. I can remember
20:00

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Sal putting a "What does he taste like?" Sal putting a "What does he taste like?"
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I said "Well taste him and find out." I said "Well taste him and find out."
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and she sort of. You know I mean. That's not the sort of thing and she sort of. You know I mean. That's not the sort of thing
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that can happen in a hospital and. She said "Oh. Tastes very nice." that can happen in a hospital and. She said "Oh. Tastes very nice."
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I said "Yes". So. I mean because a new baby taste delicious. I said "Yes". So. I mean because a new baby taste delicious.
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Oh this, this, this beautiful, succulent little new being. You know. Oh this, this, this beautiful, succulent little new being. You know.
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And so all of those things were just felt like a continuation of my life And so all of those things were just felt like a continuation of my life
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normally and um. It was lovely. normally and um. It was lovely.
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It was wonderful. And from It was wonderful. And from
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that I decided "Well there aren't enough of these women having their babies at home." So we that I decided "Well there aren't enough of these women having their babies at home." So we
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formed the Birth of Beyond group. Um. We'd formed and I think just before formed the Birth of Beyond group. Um. We'd formed and I think just before
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You know about the time, I'd have to look up the dates. Very much around Jonah's birth. You know about the time, I'd have to look up the dates. Very much around Jonah's birth.
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So Carol, and others formed Birth and Beyond So Carol, and others formed Birth and Beyond
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and we decided we'd help as many families as we could and we decided we'd help as many families as we could
20:47

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um, to have their babies in the manner in which they chose. So that if um, to have their babies in the manner in which they chose. So that if
20:52

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that meant supporting a woman to have a child in hospital we'd do that meant supporting a woman to have a child in hospital we'd do
20:55

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that. If it meant supporting a woman through as much of her labor at home that. If it meant supporting a woman through as much of her labor at home
20:59

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and then it being necessary for her to go to hospital and then it being necessary for her to go to hospital
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or it being her choice to go to hospital, we'd do or it being her choice to go to hospital, we'd do
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that. If it meant choosing to have a baby at home we do that. that. If it meant choosing to have a baby at home we do that.
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So I started to learn midwifery skills um, and you know So I started to learn midwifery skills um, and you know
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that involved taking risks and we were prepared to do it. that involved taking risks and we were prepared to do it.
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And we had to negotiate with the medical profession in Lismore of course to be, have And we had to negotiate with the medical profession in Lismore of course to be, have
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them as our support people when we didn't know what to do or them as our support people when we didn't know what to do or
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when we did encounter difficulties or difficult births or things like that. when we did encounter difficulties or difficult births or things like that.
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And we had to face, you know charges are irresponsible. And we had to face, you know charges are irresponsible.
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I don't think it's irresponsible to have your baby at home. I don't think it's irresponsible to have your baby at home.
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I think is a very responsible act. Um. I think is a very responsible act. Um.
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So it was again, it was one of those very powerful times for me. I grew a lot So it was again, it was one of those very powerful times for me. I grew a lot
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through that experience. through that experience.
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I loved helping women have their babies at home. It was a real honor. I loved helping women have their babies at home. It was a real honor.
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It's an honor to be around birth. It's an honor to be around death It's an honor to be around birth. It's an honor to be around death
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and in later times I've moved towards helping friends towards their death. and in later times I've moved towards helping friends towards their death.
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And it's been. You know it's, it's reclaiming the rights to all aspects of our lives. And it's been. You know it's, it's reclaiming the rights to all aspects of our lives.
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It's reclaiming the right to have control over our lives. To provide It's reclaiming the right to have control over our lives. To provide
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shelter, to provide education, to provide food, to provide birthing, shelter, to provide education, to provide food, to provide birthing,
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and, and death in a way that we and, and death in a way that we
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that we want to do it. [Interviewer] So how long were you at Nimbin? that we want to do it. [Interviewer] So how long were you at Nimbin?
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[Jan Oliver] How long was I at Nimbin? [Jan Oliver] How long was I at Nimbin?
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Gee I don't even like putting years over Gee I don't even like putting years over
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that. You know I was in Nimbin for some of the most formative years of my life. that. You know I was in Nimbin for some of the most formative years of my life.
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Um. Um.
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And I'm grateful for the experience of having been there. I think it was something And I'm grateful for the experience of having been there. I think it was something
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like 11 years I lived in Nimbin. Um. Because you see I lived communally in the city like 11 years I lived in Nimbin. Um. Because you see I lived communally in the city
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and it was all, it's all part of the continuum isn't it. and it was all, it's all part of the continuum isn't it.
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Where am I now? You know I mean. I live at the beach Where am I now? You know I mean. I live at the beach
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but I still see myself as part of an extended family. but I still see myself as part of an extended family.
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So I lived in Nimbin at the same, on the same community, um. So I lived in Nimbin at the same, on the same community, um.
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When my partner, Charlie and I met and fell in love When my partner, Charlie and I met and fell in love
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we lived part time at Tuntable Falls we lived part time at Tuntable Falls
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and part time at Nimbin trying to work out how we would negotiate the physicality of and part time at Nimbin trying to work out how we would negotiate the physicality of
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our you know, where would we have our domicile. Um. our you know, where would we have our domicile. Um.
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But mainly I lived based at Paradise Valley. I never moved on from there till we left But mainly I lived based at Paradise Valley. I never moved on from there till we left
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Nimbin, and it was great. Ok. Nimbin, and it was great. Ok.
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So although it was 11 years short, it was you know half a lifetime long So although it was 11 years short, it was you know half a lifetime long
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or something I don't know. I don't really know how to put or something I don't know. I don't really know how to put
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that in terms of, in words because I'm just grateful for that experience. that in terms of, in words because I'm just grateful for that experience.
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And in a way I've never left Nimbin. Um. And in a way I've never left Nimbin. Um.
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I live at, on, you know in a beautiful environment on the beach now and. I live at, on, you know in a beautiful environment on the beach now and.
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But you know it's like. It's still part of. It's still But you know it's like. It's still part of. It's still
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when I think of home that's part of my concept of home. I mean I have very many, when I think of home that's part of my concept of home. I mean I have very many,
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when I think of home, many parts of the world, in a way fit into that when I think of home, many parts of the world, in a way fit into that
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that image for me now and Nimbin's certainly a large part of that image for me now and Nimbin's certainly a large part of
23:52

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that. I've still got lots of dear friends there. I still have contact there. I've recently that. I've still got lots of dear friends there. I still have contact there. I've recently
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been involved in teaching a course to teenagers there. It's not. been involved in teaching a course to teenagers there. It's not.
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I mean I don't even think that you have to leave places I mean I don't even think that you have to leave places
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and that's part of what I think I learnt and that's part of what I think I learnt
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living at Nimbin is that you can have these connections and bonds living at Nimbin is that you can have these connections and bonds
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and you don't ever have to leave. You're just not there at the moment. and you don't ever have to leave. You're just not there at the moment.
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But so that's a part of that attitude. Why did I.. But so that's a part of that attitude. Why did I..
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Why did I move away from Nimbin might be a better way of putting that question. Why did I move away from Nimbin might be a better way of putting that question.
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And that's, that's a very long answer in the way. Ah. It was after a long time of living And that's, that's a very long answer in the way. Ah. It was after a long time of living
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in one place. I think I was really ready for a change. in one place. I think I was really ready for a change.
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And I become in over the years more And I become in over the years more
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and more involved in women's education. and more involved in women's education.
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And I think a lot of the issues of women's equality haven't been addressed. And I think a lot of the issues of women's equality haven't been addressed.
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Or hadn't been addressed by most of the members of the community. Or hadn't been addressed by most of the members of the community.
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Um. One of the difficult issues that we went through were issues of Um. One of the difficult issues that we went through were issues of
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Incest within the family. Incest within the family.
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I didn't feel I didn't feel
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that our family adequately, our extended family adequately addressed those issues to that our family adequately, our extended family adequately addressed those issues to
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the satisfaction the satisfaction
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and to the, to the recovery of the young children involved, the young women involved. Um. and to the, to the recovery of the young children involved, the young women involved. Um.
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And I really. You know that was And I really. You know that was
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that was part of my. I'd already moved down to the coast for work. Work was one of the that was part of my. I'd already moved down to the coast for work. Work was one of the
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reasons. Um. reasons. Um.
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Some of the issues Some of the issues
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about care of the environment were certainly involved. Some of the disagreements about care of the environment were certainly involved. Some of the disagreements
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within the community about how we would actually care for this very beautiful within the community about how we would actually care for this very beautiful
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environment, and it wasn't that i was opposed. Um. environment, and it wasn't that i was opposed. Um.
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I think I was just opposed I think I was just opposed
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to anything in particular. I think i was ready for a change to anything in particular. I think i was ready for a change
25:40

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and I was ready to try to be in a situation where, again I could be in a situation and I was ready to try to be in a situation where, again I could be in a situation
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where I could have, um, where I could have, um,
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control over some of the important choices. I don't mean control in a negative way. control over some of the important choices. I don't mean control in a negative way.
25:56

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More in the gaining power by being responsible for your choices. More in the gaining power by being responsible for your choices.
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I'm not saying this very well. It's a bit muddled. I'm not saying this very well. It's a bit muddled.
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So I might have to rephrase some of this. So I might have to rephrase some of this.
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Some of the reasons that I moved away from Nimbin Some of the reasons that I moved away from Nimbin
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involved moving to a place where we could, both Charlie involved moving to a place where we could, both Charlie
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and I were able to find work more easily, without long distances of travelling and I were able to find work more easily, without long distances of travelling
26:22

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and I was really ready for change. and I was really ready for change.
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I think after a long period of commitment to communal living I think after a long period of commitment to communal living
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ah, at Paradise Valley. ah, at Paradise Valley.
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I still love living communally, um, in an extended family. I still love living communally, um, in an extended family.
26:37

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I wanted to be able to be in a situation where some of the social issues I wanted to be able to be in a situation where some of the social issues
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that are really important to me were really being fully addressed within my own that are really important to me were really being fully addressed within my own
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household. Um. Some of those issues for me are issues of addiction. household. Um. Some of those issues for me are issues of addiction.
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I really want to live in a drug-free household for myself and for the kids. I really want to live in a drug-free household for myself and for the kids.
26:54

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I want to live in a, in a situation where people really are prepared I want to live in a, in a situation where people really are prepared
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and brave enough to take on social issues like dealing with incest. Which wasn't and brave enough to take on social issues like dealing with incest. Which wasn't
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adequately dealt with in my view in the community. Um. Issues of the environment. adequately dealt with in my view in the community. Um. Issues of the environment.
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Um. I don't. I don't think we were able as a group to come together very well Um. I don't. I don't think we were able as a group to come together very well
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and make really significant. Radical. and make really significant. Radical.
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Decisions about care of the environment and those were the things Decisions about care of the environment and those were the things
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that were sort of happening at the time that I was really ready to make my move that were sort of happening at the time that I was really ready to make my move
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and as those issues became difficult. I mean you asked whether some life there was and as those issues became difficult. I mean you asked whether some life there was
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very difficult. Of course it was difficult trying to nut all of very difficult. Of course it was difficult trying to nut all of
27:29

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that out with you know many different people from different backgrounds that out with you know many different people from different backgrounds
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and different ideologies and different ideologies
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and we didn't have any bonding ideology. You didn't have to pass a test to come and we didn't have any bonding ideology. You didn't have to pass a test to come
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there. Um. So as that I think that some of those issues were quite difficult there. Um. So as that I think that some of those issues were quite difficult
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and I was I guess a little wearied of putting in such intense energy and I was I guess a little wearied of putting in such intense energy
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constantly on some of those issues. Um. constantly on some of those issues. Um.
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And education was one of the issues that, that was involved in my move. And education was one of the issues that, that was involved in my move.
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Um. The kids' Dad wasn't particularly Um. The kids' Dad wasn't particularly
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satisfied with the notion of them continuing high school sorts of education at satisfied with the notion of them continuing high school sorts of education at
28:04

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Nimbin, and so Charlie Nimbin, and so Charlie
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and I decided to be in a situation where the availability of high schools would be and I decided to be in a situation where the availability of high schools would be
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more acceptable to their Dad more acceptable to their Dad
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and you know to make life eas-easier for the kids hopefully. So there were all and you know to make life eas-easier for the kids hopefully. So there were all
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these various issues that came into it. these various issues that came into it.
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And one of the issues was And one of the issues was
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that we were ready to travel with the kids. We'd promised the kids we'd take them, that we were ready to travel with the kids. We'd promised the kids we'd take them,
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or Charlie had promised the kids he'd take them to America or Charlie had promised the kids he'd take them to America
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and Disneyland, before Sal reached 12, and Sally very sort of wisely reminded Charlie. and Disneyland, before Sal reached 12, and Sally very sort of wisely reminded Charlie.
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Some 12 months or 2 years before "Don't forget I'm nearly 12 Some 12 months or 2 years before "Don't forget I'm nearly 12
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and you have this promise." and you have this promise."
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So we actually had to make sure that we could earn our income. Earn enough So we actually had to make sure that we could earn our income. Earn enough
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income to, take this wild adventure of, you know just heading off income to, take this wild adventure of, you know just heading off
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overseas for, for half a year or so. So all of those overseas for, for half a year or so. So all of those
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influenced me. influenced me.
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And you know I just. I just saw my moving on from Nimbin a bit as being just another And you know I just. I just saw my moving on from Nimbin a bit as being just another
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opportunity for me to grow in other ways and to take a lot of the learning opportunity for me to grow in other ways and to take a lot of the learning
29:04

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that I have learnt from Nimbin out into the broader community. that I have learnt from Nimbin out into the broader community.
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I mean you know like we were looking after our environment through the forest I mean you know like we were looking after our environment through the forest
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campaigns that I was very intimately involved with and things like campaigns that I was very intimately involved with and things like
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that. We were doing some of that. We were doing some of
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that. We've got the...We've got the Rainforest Policy for New South Wales established. We've that. We've got the...We've got the Rainforest Policy for New South Wales established. We've
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got the multiple occupancy changes in local um, government occur and things like got the multiple occupancy changes in local um, government occur and things like
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that. We'd established schools. that. We'd established schools.
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But here we were you know, across Byron Bay. Here's an environment still being ravaged. But here we were you know, across Byron Bay. Here's an environment still being ravaged.
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So you know part of what I've done since being out here is to establish with others So you know part of what I've done since being out here is to establish with others
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an Environment Centre here and you know, things like that. an Environment Centre here and you know, things like that.
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So you know. It's just an opportunity to, to go So you know. It's just an opportunity to, to go
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and expand somewhere else. [laughs] [Interviewer] How, how was it that the community was ineffectually dealing with issues of child abuse? Was it and expand somewhere else. [laughs] [Interviewer] How, how was it that the community was ineffectually dealing with issues of child abuse? Was it
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versus personal freedom? Or was it? What was it that made it ineffectual? [Jan Oliver] Oh oh. versus personal freedom? Or was it? What was it that made it ineffectual? [Jan Oliver] Oh oh.
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What a question. The question being what made the community ineffectual with dealing What a question. The question being what made the community ineffectual with dealing
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with child abuse? Patriarchal. Patriarchal overlay. [Interviewer] Sorry. with child abuse? Patriarchal. Patriarchal overlay. [Interviewer] Sorry.
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Can you start again? [Jan Oliver] Yeah. Do you want me to repeat it. Ok. What made it, made it what. Can you start again? [Jan Oliver] Yeah. Do you want me to repeat it. Ok. What made it, made it what.
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Why was the community ineffectual in dealing with child abuse within the community? Why was the community ineffectual in dealing with child abuse within the community?
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I wish I really knew the answer to I wish I really knew the answer to
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that. I can only. I'm still only guessing at some of that that. I can only. I'm still only guessing at some of that
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and it's very easy to make generalisations. and it's very easy to make generalisations.
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I think one of the reasons the community wasn't effective in dealing with child I think one of the reasons the community wasn't effective in dealing with child
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abuse was that many of the men in the community. abuse was that many of the men in the community.
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Most of the men in the community. Most of the men in the community.
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Basically felt it was okay. And I'm really saddened to have to say that. Basically felt it was okay. And I'm really saddened to have to say that.
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I don't think I don't think
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that very many men were prepared to look at their own sexuality, their own that very many men were prepared to look at their own sexuality, their own
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objectification of women and children. objectification of women and children.
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And to come to make some growth steps through that. I think many of the men felt. And to come to make some growth steps through that. I think many of the men felt.
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"Oh yeah. But I've been a bit like that myself." [laughs] Therefore it must be ok. "Oh yeah. But I've been a bit like that myself." [laughs] Therefore it must be ok.
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I don't think there were very many women who were brave enough to speak out against I don't think there were very many women who were brave enough to speak out against
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their partners although in private conversations with me their partners although in private conversations with me
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many of the women would when it came to a many of the women would when it came to a
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confrontation situation which it indeed was. confrontation situation which it indeed was.
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Those women were too threatened about their relationships I think. Those women were too threatened about their relationships I think.
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And that's that's And that's that's
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when we talked earlier about sexism within communities, we didn't used to call it when we talked earlier about sexism within communities, we didn't used to call it
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sexism but I think that's an appropriate word to use. sexism but I think that's an appropriate word to use.
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I don't think issues of sexism have been dealt with in individual communities I don't think issues of sexism have been dealt with in individual communities
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or the community at large and I'm very saddened by that. or the community at large and I'm very saddened by that.
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I can only do that myself and it. I can only do that myself and it.