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Oh, the biggest success in technology that this community has achieved Oh, the biggest success in technology that this community has achieved
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is not so much that we've got wonderful, new, brilliant is not so much that we've got wonderful, new, brilliant
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energy systems going or anything like energy systems going or anything like
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that. We've got a few demonstration projects to prove it's possible. that. We've got a few demonstration projects to prove it's possible.
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We've got a big hydroelectric scheme, we've got my flying fox transport. The things We've got a big hydroelectric scheme, we've got my flying fox transport. The things
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you can actually poke a stick at you can actually poke a stick at
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and say this is radical, appropriate soft technology, and say this is radical, appropriate soft technology,
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but if you look at the statistics of the whole communities lifestyle over the but if you look at the statistics of the whole communities lifestyle over the
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property, the only way we really are winning property, the only way we really are winning
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as far as the planet's concerned, is the fact that we're not using nearly as much. as far as the planet's concerned, is the fact that we're not using nearly as much.
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We've got by with a lot less servicing and we've found We've got by with a lot less servicing and we've found
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that it doesn't really matter all that much. It's enough. (What about that it doesn't really matter all that much. It's enough. (What about
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In this community decision. In this community decision.
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at Tuntable? Has that been? Someone said to me about Tuntable that the Community Hall's at Tuntable? Has that been? Someone said to me about Tuntable that the Community Hall's
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been being built for the last 14 years. It was a, yeah.) Well, it was always a bit of an iffy project. been being built for the last 14 years. It was a, yeah.) Well, it was always a bit of an iffy project.
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There was never enormous push behind that project. Um. There was never enormous push behind that project. Um.
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Whereas buying more land, there's always been incredible push for. Um. Whereas buying more land, there's always been incredible push for. Um.
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Cynically I'd say that's because more dope growing land Cynically I'd say that's because more dope growing land
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but that's not totally true. but that's not totally true.
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It's more the feeling of um, wishing to consolidate, people wishing for security. It's more the feeling of um, wishing to consolidate, people wishing for security.
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And owning this whole valley was a very important political And owning this whole valley was a very important political
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and ideological um, strength behind this community. and ideological um, strength behind this community.
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It meant that as a community we had less neighbours. It meant that as a community we had less neighbours.
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We hardly ever conflict our, our direct neighbours with different ideas. We hardly ever conflict our, our direct neighbours with different ideas.
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Other communities have great big legal fights over pesticide spraying that blows Other communities have great big legal fights over pesticide spraying that blows
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over their fences and things like over their fences and things like
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that. Because we own the whole valley we don't that. Because we own the whole valley we don't
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have that. On a couple of occasions fires of come over the ridgeline from the neighbour have that. On a couple of occasions fires of come over the ridgeline from the neighbour
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and we've um, taken him to court. and we've um, taken him to court.
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And a couple of occasions he's come and logged our logs, over the border And a couple of occasions he's come and logged our logs, over the border
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and we've made a big fuss about it. and we've made a big fuss about it.
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So that's about the only interaction we've had. And we've been on very solid grounds. So that's about the only interaction we've had. And we've been on very solid grounds.
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(What is it about Nimbin for you? Is there something ?[inaudible]?) (What is it about Nimbin for you? Is there something ?[inaudible]?)
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Oh. Nimbin's wonderful for it's tolerence. (Can you start again?) Nimbin is a wonderfully tolerant place. Oh. Nimbin's wonderful for it's tolerence. (Can you start again?) Nimbin is a wonderfully tolerant place.
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It's one place. Like even in the.. It's one place. Like even in the..
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What I say that the black spots of Nimbin, which is the Rainbow Cafe What I say that the black spots of Nimbin, which is the Rainbow Cafe
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and the Freemasons Hotel. The Freemasons Hotel is my favourite hotel anywhere. and the Freemasons Hotel. The Freemasons Hotel is my favourite hotel anywhere.
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It's usually full of appalling music. Horrible looking people It's usually full of appalling music. Horrible looking people
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and people are blatantly using drugs and drinking to excess. and people are blatantly using drugs and drinking to excess.
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But never in my whole 20 years of going frequenting But never in my whole 20 years of going frequenting
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to that place have I been assaulted. to that place have I been assaulted.
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I've drunk with totally obnoxious looking bikies, with undercover police, with some I've drunk with totally obnoxious looking bikies, with undercover police, with some
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of the most suspicious looking dubious people that you'd ever see. of the most suspicious looking dubious people that you'd ever see.
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And yet there is never a threat to person. There's a And yet there is never a threat to person. There's a
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a wonderful cosmopolitan thing in Nimbin. That different cultures are respected, and a wonderful cosmopolitan thing in Nimbin. That different cultures are respected, and
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You feel You feel
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that you could just about walk down the street naked, in fact I know someone who did, that you could just about walk down the street naked, in fact I know someone who did,
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and no one would take the slightest notice. and no one would take the slightest notice.
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And yet it's also a place where you know everybody and they know you. And yet it's also a place where you know everybody and they know you.
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And if you're desperate someone might even lend you $5. [laughs] And if you're desperate someone might even lend you $5. [laughs]
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(Do you know a favourite funny Nimbin story?) Oh dear. I could go on. (Do you know a favourite funny Nimbin story?) Oh dear. I could go on.
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Yes. [laughs] (Do go on.) Yes. [laughs] (Do go on.)
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Funniest Nimbin story I know. I-I guess this doesn't- Funniest Nimbin story I know. I-I guess this doesn't-
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I'm sure this is legally ok to say so. Was I'm sure this is legally ok to say so. Was
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that one of our ideological leaders during the Aquarius Festival, who was very keen that one of our ideological leaders during the Aquarius Festival, who was very keen
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on peace love and non-violence on peace love and non-violence
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and who's child, conceived at the Aquarius Festivals was called 'Softly.' and who's child, conceived at the Aquarius Festivals was called 'Softly.'
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Turned into be the most beautiful flower child. Turned into be the most beautiful flower child.
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He actually. Um. He actually. Um.
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Assaulted one of my neighbors with a steel ruler, and got dragged into court for it. Assaulted one of my neighbors with a steel ruler, and got dragged into court for it.
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And the only thing he could say after being convicted was 'I should have hit him And the only thing he could say after being convicted was 'I should have hit him
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harder.' [laughs] harder.' [laughs]
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(Pluralist) The same fellow unfortunately, got, must have irritated some bikies, equally (Pluralist) The same fellow unfortunately, got, must have irritated some bikies, equally
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and they promptly shot him in the kneecaps and they promptly shot him in the kneecaps
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and left his body in the, in the quarry up the top of the hill. and left his body in the, in the quarry up the top of the hill.
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So I sort of had total sympathy. [laughs] So I sort of had total sympathy. [laughs]
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(?I was gonna say? You thought he had it coming?) Oh. He was the most irritating man. (?I was gonna say? You thought he had it coming?) Oh. He was the most irritating man.
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At the same time was a, the was a, a oneness with the environment that At the same time was a, the was a, a oneness with the environment that
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that man showed which is possibly forgotten. Sometimes moonlight nights. that man showed which is possibly forgotten. Sometimes moonlight nights.
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um, he'd just come crashing out of the forest obviously having walked 5 kilometres um, he'd just come crashing out of the forest obviously having walked 5 kilometres
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through the totally un-untracked bush, in the middle of the night through the totally un-untracked bush, in the middle of the night
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and he'd have a wild fire and he'd have a wild fire
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in his eyes like he, he was..like an animal out of the forest, and I could relate to in his eyes like he, he was..like an animal out of the forest, and I could relate to
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that, because part of the whole point. that, because part of the whole point.
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There's a, a c-communal communality of all the animals that live in the forest. I love the There's a, a c-communal communality of all the animals that live in the forest. I love the
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fact that all these animals just walk in fact that all these animals just walk in
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and out of my house as if it's part of the track which was always there. and out of my house as if it's part of the track which was always there.
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I just happen to build my house at the joining of 3 tracks. I just happen to build my house at the joining of 3 tracks.
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And the animals treat it still as, just exactly what it was. A meeting of those 3 And the animals treat it still as, just exactly what it was. A meeting of those 3
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tracks. tracks.
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(Is that part of the special-specialness of the freedom here for you?) Very much so. Yes. (Is it a (Is that part of the special-specialness of the freedom here for you?) Very much so. Yes. (Is it a
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spiritual thing for you?) Yes. (Can you expand?) spiritual thing for you?) Yes. (Can you expand?)
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Well, ever since I started taking mushrooms I, I was very worried about what Well, ever since I started taking mushrooms I, I was very worried about what
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consciousness is. What are we? Who are we? consciousness is. What are we? Who are we?
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What's it all for? All those fundamental spiritual questions. What's it all for? All those fundamental spiritual questions.
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And one of the things I came to is that there wasn't any reason. It just is. And one of the things I came to is that there wasn't any reason. It just is.
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And all animals that are, are. It sounds semantically tautological And all animals that are, are. It sounds semantically tautological
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but that's still the way I feel about these animals that walk around the forest. but that's still the way I feel about these animals that walk around the forest.
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They're no more They're no more
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and no less than I am. So being able to just go by in peace and no less than I am. So being able to just go by in peace
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and have the, the goannas and bush turkeys and have the, the goannas and bush turkeys
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and all these amazing creatures just come and look at me and all these amazing creatures just come and look at me
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when I'm sitting there watching television to me is that an amazing event. when I'm sitting there watching television to me is that an amazing event.
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(Does it pose horrible ethical dilemas for you that, one) (Does it pose horrible ethical dilemas for you that, one)
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No. (Don't squash the flies.) I don't take it that far. I don't think there's anything wrong No. (Don't squash the flies.) I don't take it that far. I don't think there's anything wrong
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with squashing March Flies. In fact I find it quite amusing. You squash them then you watch with squashing March Flies. In fact I find it quite amusing. You squash them then you watch
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the lizards eat them. They're part of the cycle. the lizards eat them. They're part of the cycle.
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So I'm not a Buddhist in that sense. So I'm not a Buddhist in that sense.
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I've never formalised what religious views I've had I've never formalised what religious views I've had
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except that I don't believe in any of them. And none of it makes sense. except that I don't believe in any of them. And none of it makes sense.
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but I'm quite prepared to leave it not making sense. (Have there been various spiritual movements) but I'm quite prepared to leave it not making sense. (Have there been various spiritual movements)
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Oh. Strong. Yes. Of course. Everyone must mention the different.. Oh. Strong. Yes. Of course. Everyone must mention the different..
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Most people tend to be Buddhist in the sense of valuing all life. Thinking that Most people tend to be Buddhist in the sense of valuing all life. Thinking that
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that the mountains, the trees everything has spirit. Which it does. that the mountains, the trees everything has spirit. Which it does.
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One of the most beautiful spiritual times here is walking around the valley by One of the most beautiful spiritual times here is walking around the valley by
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moonlight. You feel like you're, you've come back to a primeval world moonlight. You feel like you're, you've come back to a primeval world
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beyond-before time, and it's the middle of the day and you wearing sunglasses. beyond-before time, and it's the middle of the day and you wearing sunglasses.
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That's the closest way I can express what it's like to walk around this valley by That's the closest way I can express what it's like to walk around this valley by
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moonlight. It's so quiet. moonlight. It's so quiet.
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You can hear a car for 5 kilometres away easily. You can even tell which car it You can hear a car for 5 kilometres away easily. You can even tell which car it
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is. Now that's un..It's imponderable when you live in somewhere like Sydney. is. Now that's un..It's imponderable when you live in somewhere like Sydney.
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Where you might hear a siren 3 streets away Where you might hear a siren 3 streets away
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and that's about it. (So the importance of silence) and that's about it. (So the importance of silence)
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Yes. This valley is acoustically one unit. And...you smell things here. Yes. This valley is acoustically one unit. And...you smell things here.
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It's got wonderful smells. It's got.. It's got wonderful smells. It's got..
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beautiful sounds everyone mentions. At night time, walking around here can hear all beautiful sounds everyone mentions. At night time, walking around here can hear all
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of the birds. The different sorts of owls, night jars, the..You can hear things going of the birds. The different sorts of owls, night jars, the..You can hear things going
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on. The wallabies hopping around. on. The wallabies hopping around.
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It's like it's a whole world happening. It's just that there aren't people dominating it. It's like it's a whole world happening. It's just that there aren't people dominating it.
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We just one more night animal walking around. We just one more night animal walking around.
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(Well thanks very much. The importance of..) (Well thanks very much. The importance of..)
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Oh, music was almost a driving force in this culture. Oh, music was almost a driving force in this culture.
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This Aquarian culture. Um, we had the protest movement. We had Bob Dylan, This Aquarian culture. Um, we had the protest movement. We had Bob Dylan,
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Joan Baez, all of those people, and they really created the dream. Joan Baez, all of those people, and they really created the dream.
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I mentioned before baroque-celtic infusion rock. But it was also the ballad. I mentioned before baroque-celtic infusion rock. But it was also the ballad.
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You get people like Joan Baez sing-singing about...um. You get people like Joan Baez sing-singing about...um.
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Like 'The Circle Song' was one of the classics. It's about the circle of life Like 'The Circle Song' was one of the classics. It's about the circle of life
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And one of the key lines about the boy. Cartwheel And one of the key lines about the boy. Cartwheel
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Change the car wheels through the town and then the next person. Change the car wheels through the town and then the next person.
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And his dreams have lost that grandeur coming through. And his dreams have lost that grandeur coming through.
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I see a lot of the people around me feeling a little bit sort of jaded about the I see a lot of the people around me feeling a little bit sort of jaded about the
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Tuntable experience,and it sometimes feels a bit like a, a holiday camp Tuntable experience,and it sometimes feels a bit like a, a holiday camp
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or so much like a beach place where people go to retire and die. or so much like a beach place where people go to retire and die.
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But I think partly it's because the dreams that come true, But I think partly it's because the dreams that come true,
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They've lost their grandeur They've lost their grandeur
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and it's all sort of worn off a bit. Because sometimes it's not the reality of and it's all sort of worn off a bit. Because sometimes it's not the reality of
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what's happened but the way what's happened but the way
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that people feel about it which affects the way they talk about it. So that people feel about it which affects the way they talk about it. So
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I feel at the same inspirational, creating a new vision thing which has been I feel at the same inspirational, creating a new vision thing which has been
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like the Led Zeppelin song, 'Stairway to Heaven'. That was one of the, like the Led Zeppelin song, 'Stairway to Heaven'. That was one of the,
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The hymns of our movement and everyone can play The hymns of our movement and everyone can play
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that song on the guitar. that song on the guitar.
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It's just one of the sort of, rites of passage in this community. It's just one of the sort of, rites of passage in this community.
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And the...'the forest will echo with laughter'. And the...'the forest will echo with laughter'.
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If one of the most amazing lines in the middle of that song If one of the most amazing lines in the middle of that song
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and it's funny, because it brings together the two elements of this culture which I've and it's funny, because it brings together the two elements of this culture which I've
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always found contradictory. Ones always found contradictory. Ones
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that the forest echoing the laughter, the silence. On the other hand the incredible that the forest echoing the laughter, the silence. On the other hand the incredible
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noise with which most people play music around here. Right from beginning Bobby noise with which most people play music around here. Right from beginning Bobby
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Craven's Cow Bales down there, which was the nearest point with electricity, where you could Craven's Cow Bales down there, which was the nearest point with electricity, where you could
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plug in a 1000-watt amplifier, was booming and shaking plug in a 1000-watt amplifier, was booming and shaking
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and shocking the whole valley with really quite Miserable Doors type rock and shocking the whole valley with really quite Miserable Doors type rock
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and roll, and all the concerts around here. and roll, and all the concerts around here.
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I couldn't relate to this culture at all until I learned to wear earplugs I couldn't relate to this culture at all until I learned to wear earplugs
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and now, before I go into any concert round here I plug up my years with toilet and now, before I go into any concert round here I plug up my years with toilet
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paper. You just simply have to. It's one of the few reasons I think paper. You just simply have to. It's one of the few reasons I think
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that I've got still my hearing. Whereas many people around here are quite deaf. that I've got still my hearing. Whereas many people around here are quite deaf.
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It's one of the...my theories about the communication between people is It's one of the...my theories about the communication between people is
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Extremely simple. Extremely simple.
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People don't communicate because half the people are too stoned to talk coherently People don't communicate because half the people are too stoned to talk coherently
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and the other half are too deaf to hear. and the other half are too deaf to hear.
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And you know I think that the communication's the lifeblood of any community And you know I think that the communication's the lifeblood of any community
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and we're not doing enough of it. (What about the burden of um, being seen to be some sort of visionary community?) and we're not doing enough of it. (What about the burden of um, being seen to be some sort of visionary community?)
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Well that's work to our favor. We've collected. Yes. Well that's work to our favor. We've collected. Yes.
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The burden of being seen as a visionary center. The burden of being seen as a visionary center.
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is wonderful. For example my immediate neighbourhood is wonderful. For example my immediate neighbourhood
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has now a totally re-populated. I'm the only person who was there in the has now a totally re-populated. I'm the only person who was there in the
12:48

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original hamlet. All the people have come are Germans except for one, original hamlet. All the people have come are Germans except for one,
12:52

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Tony was an auto-electrician from up in Queensland. But all of the others are Germans. Tony was an auto-electrician from up in Queensland. But all of the others are Germans.
12:59

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Germans know more about Nimbin than Australians do. Germans know more about Nimbin than Australians do.
13:02

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It's considered a Mecca for anti-authoritarian forces. Whether they call themselves, ah It's considered a Mecca for anti-authoritarian forces. Whether they call themselves, ah
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junkies or anarchists or what. That doesn't really matter. junkies or anarchists or what. That doesn't really matter.
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The point is they're anti-the state. That The point is they're anti-the state. That
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they've been over-inspected, over-defected, over everythinged in Germany by an they've been over-inspected, over-defected, over everythinged in Germany by an
13:18

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excessively efficient public service. excessively efficient public service.
13:20

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They come here to escape it. It's the opposite point of the globe, and it's the opposite end They come here to escape it. It's the opposite point of the globe, and it's the opposite end
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culturally, and for that reason we've got all these wonderful immigrant Germans culturally, and for that reason we've got all these wonderful immigrant Germans
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Who are skilled. Ambitious. Who are skilled. Ambitious.
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Old enough and have the wherewithal to be constructive Old enough and have the wherewithal to be constructive
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and my whole neighborhood has been totally rebuilt in a wonderful way by the and my whole neighborhood has been totally rebuilt in a wonderful way by the
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ingress of all is wonderful Germans. ingress of all is wonderful Germans.
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So it's attracted a lot of negative attention from government bureaucracies. So it's attracted a lot of negative attention from government bureaucracies.
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For example if I..When I get regularly stopped because I drive an old car, they always For example if I..When I get regularly stopped because I drive an old car, they always
13:58

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look at my license. And the fact look at my license. And the fact
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that the license shows the wrong gender doesn't seem to bother them. that the license shows the wrong gender doesn't seem to bother them.
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What bothers them is the word 'Tuntable Falls'. Tthey promptly get out What bothers them is the word 'Tuntable Falls'. Tthey promptly get out
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and start searching the car for marijuana. and start searching the car for marijuana.
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The image of the place has got a lot of attention unwanted from both police The image of the place has got a lot of attention unwanted from both police
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and drug traffickers in general. That was beautifully ambiguous. and drug traffickers in general. That was beautifully ambiguous.
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But..yes. It's, it's been also a wonderful drawcard. We've got an unbelievable string But..yes. It's, it's been also a wonderful drawcard. We've got an unbelievable string
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of talented wonderful people come to this property, of talented wonderful people come to this property,
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Most of whom we've used poorly and consumed Most of whom we've used poorly and consumed
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and spat out. My biggest guilt about this community is how poorly we've served many and spat out. My biggest guilt about this community is how poorly we've served many
14:39

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of the very talented idealis-ideologically motivated people, because what's of the very talented idealis-ideologically motivated people, because what's
14:45

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happened is this community is built of the cream and the dregs. happened is this community is built of the cream and the dregs.
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They both come together. We're unselective and often I'm not quite sure They both come together. We're unselective and often I'm not quite sure
14:54

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sometimes which category to put people in. It's not sometimes which category to put people in. It's not
14:57

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that I'm being judgmental, it's just simply the fact that I'm being judgmental, it's just simply the fact
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that people come here sometimes for their own um, purposes that people come here sometimes for their own um, purposes
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and sometimes for community purposes. Just occasionally enlightened self-interest and sometimes for community purposes. Just occasionally enlightened self-interest
15:09

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makes them serve both masters. (Ok. Thanks a lot.) makes them serve both masters. (Ok. Thanks a lot.)
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Ok. (Can you introduce yourself?) (Right) Ok. (Can you introduce yourself?) (Right)
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My name is Sally Spain and I came to Nimbin in 1976 late 1976 My name is Sally Spain and I came to Nimbin in 1976 late 1976
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and I've lived here on and off since then. On and I've lived here on and off since then. On
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and off because some of the time I go over the border. and off because some of the time I go over the border.
15:35

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The Aborigines used to call this country 'the country of the men' The Aborigines used to call this country 'the country of the men'
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and they centred their ceremonies. and they centred their ceremonies.
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on Mount Warning. on Mount Warning.
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And the terrain here is rougher than where I grew up which is just over the border And the terrain here is rougher than where I grew up which is just over the border
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in south east Queensland, which Cath Walker once told me in south east Queensland, which Cath Walker once told me
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was with Stradbroke Island and, and Mount Tambourine, in the country of the women. was with Stradbroke Island and, and Mount Tambourine, in the country of the women.
15:55

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And I find that the values And I find that the values
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that are expressed in both of these places, one on each side of the border that are expressed in both of these places, one on each side of the border
16:00

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Are part and parcel of the same thing. Are part and parcel of the same thing.
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I don't know how many people would agree with me because a lot of the people who I don't know how many people would agree with me because a lot of the people who
16:07

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came to Nimbin came to Nimbin
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and some of them with the very best of our generation came from Sydney and some of them with the very best of our generation came from Sydney
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and, in those days we had - because of the hard work of our parents generation - a lot and, in those days we had - because of the hard work of our parents generation - a lot
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of freedom to discuss and talk about the ideas. And out of the universities of freedom to discuss and talk about the ideas. And out of the universities
16:25

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and the colleges and the workplaces there came a feeling and the colleges and the workplaces there came a feeling
16:29

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that it would be good in, in view of some of the crises that it would be good in, in view of some of the crises
16:32

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that seem to be, be setting the world, to set up an ideal society. And young that seem to be, be setting the world, to set up an ideal society. And young
16:36

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and naive as we were, I think we expected to walk out of the country and naive as we were, I think we expected to walk out of the country
16:40

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and set one up just like that. Of course 20 years later and set one up just like that. Of course 20 years later
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when people talk about it, (I'm just going to have to get you to speak into the mic) That's fine. Yeah. Oh. Sorry. Yeah sure. when people talk about it, (I'm just going to have to get you to speak into the mic) That's fine. Yeah. Oh. Sorry. Yeah sure.
16:49

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Of course 20 years later when people talk about it. Of course 20 years later when people talk about it.
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They see the vision They see the vision
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and they also see some of the disappointments as well as some of the things and they also see some of the disappointments as well as some of the things
16:56

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that have been achieved. I think in our generation that have been achieved. I think in our generation
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and the generations later on haven't had such total freedom because of the economic and the generations later on haven't had such total freedom because of the economic
17:03

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times that came upon us. times that came upon us.
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We had an opportunity to express some of the things We had an opportunity to express some of the things
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that we believed in, which was like a whole lifestyle with, with trust that we believed in, which was like a whole lifestyle with, with trust
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and friendship with people and some connection to the earth again and friendship with people and some connection to the earth again
17:16

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and a rural community, fresh air and a rural community, fresh air
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and freedom to bring up our children perhaps in a way outside of the city areas and freedom to bring up our children perhaps in a way outside of the city areas
17:24

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and so on. and so on.
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And I think in a lot of cases some of this has been achieved. In other cases it And I think in a lot of cases some of this has been achieved. In other cases it
17:30

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hasn't because people have got sidetracked. Drugs were a problem with our generation hasn't because people have got sidetracked. Drugs were a problem with our generation
17:35

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and there were other issues too. and there were other issues too.
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But Nimbin But Nimbin
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in a way has been a learning centre. Many more people than are actually here now in a way has been a learning centre. Many more people than are actually here now
17:41

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have passed by have passed by
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and some of them have learnt difficult lessons here because it wasn't easy to come and some of them have learnt difficult lessons here because it wasn't easy to come
17:46

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from at least a semi urban lifestyle and, and suddenly plant oneself in a rural area. from at least a semi urban lifestyle and, and suddenly plant oneself in a rural area.
17:53

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But some of the people who have come here have found friendship. But some of the people who have come here have found friendship.
17:57

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I think from some of them found disappointment also. I think from some of them found disappointment also.
18:00

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Because of course the vision couldn't always be immediately realised Because of course the vision couldn't always be immediately realised
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or even ever realised perhaps. But it doesn't mean or even ever realised perhaps. But it doesn't mean
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that a lot of the people here haven't held on to the principles that a lot of the people here haven't held on to the principles
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that they espoused when they, when they dropped out of that they espoused when they, when they dropped out of
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that was what it was called in those days. That's all I can think of right now. that was what it was called in those days. That's all I can think of right now.
18:18

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(The insular nature of the community.) (The insular nature of the community.)
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Yeah. I think probably we..some..Partly that's contributed to by the terrain. I Yeah. I think probably we..some..Partly that's contributed to by the terrain. I
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mean in a sense. We're doing both things because we live in Queensland mean in a sense. We're doing both things because we live in Queensland
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and my husband works and my husband works
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and we've got our children now at school although I taught them in the early years. But and we've got our children now at school although I taught them in the early years. But
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To a degree. We've got we've got rough terrain To a degree. We've got we've got rough terrain
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and to walk across to our neighbours there, is something and to walk across to our neighbours there, is something
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that you can't really do because you've got to sort of hack your way through that you can't really do because you've got to sort of hack your way through
18:48

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or go right round via a long way. And I think just dealing with or go right round via a long way. And I think just dealing with
18:53

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planting orchards and building houses and looking after children, it might mean planting orchards and building houses and looking after children, it might mean
18:57

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that people don't associate. But in other ways I think they do. that people don't associate. But in other ways I think they do.
18:60

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When I was here more full time, ah and the little school was down there When I was here more full time, ah and the little school was down there
19:04

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The children would visit the kindergarten. The children would visit the kindergarten.
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And I would go down and be part of the committee of the school And I would go down and be part of the committee of the school
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and I think through group endeavors and I think through group endeavors
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people get a lot of their social life where they mightn't hop, skip across to a people get a lot of their social life where they mightn't hop, skip across to a
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neighbour because of the actual nature of the terrain. neighbour because of the actual nature of the terrain.
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I don't know if that answers your question. (I guess I was trying to get at um.. I don't know if that answers your question. (I guess I was trying to get at um..
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Downsides to, to the insular nature of, the community ?as well?) Sure I think that's right. Downsides to, to the insular nature of, the community ?as well?) Sure I think that's right.
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And that's what we were talking about before. I think if you have a community where And that's what we were talking about before. I think if you have a community where
19:32

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it's group life then you, you make some sacrifices to be part of the group it's group life then you, you make some sacrifices to be part of the group
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and sometimes that's, that's individually an individuality and sometimes and sometimes that's, that's individually an individuality and sometimes
19:41

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That means that you have to be able to group pressures That means that you have to be able to group pressures
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and sometimes the group is wrong. So there's always that danger. and sometimes the group is wrong. So there's always that danger.
19:48

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I mean sometimes it's correct. You get some energy from people being different I mean sometimes it's correct. You get some energy from people being different
19:51

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and you're free to be different. and you're free to be different.
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amongst them and to express what you felt you should express. amongst them and to express what you felt you should express.
19:56

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But on the other hand there is, there is tyranny by the group and I think that can But on the other hand there is, there is tyranny by the group and I think that can
20:00

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can happen too. And that's something that that would bother me. can happen too. And that's something that that would bother me.
20:04

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I think in a way because I tend to relate to people on an individual level. I think in a way because I tend to relate to people on an individual level.
20:07

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So I found beautiful friends here. So I found beautiful friends here.
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But, but I avoid the tribal meetings because it bothers me But, but I avoid the tribal meetings because it bothers me
20:13

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that some decision can be made and perhaps that's an unjust decision, not always that some decision can be made and perhaps that's an unjust decision, not always
20:17

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but it can. (Is it um..How do you see it as, as being. Is that just a but it can. (Is it um..How do you see it as, as being. Is that just a
20:23

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reflection of wider, wider society, of governments? I mean has it been an alternative experiment? Ah I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying it very well. reflection of wider, wider society, of governments? I mean has it been an alternative experiment? Ah I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying it very well.
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I mean has it just been a, a reflection of the, the rest of the world, what's happen, what's happened I mean has it just been a, a reflection of the, the rest of the world, what's happen, what's happened
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here?) No. I think there are things. There are, there are great lessons here?) No. I think there are things. There are, there are great lessons
20:47

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that can be learnt from what's happened here. that can be learnt from what's happened here.
20:49

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But there's also, with every step forward But there's also, with every step forward
20:52

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sometimes I think there's a step backwards. I mean people here are more conscious of sometimes I think there's a step backwards. I mean people here are more conscious of
20:55

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a healthy lifestyle and they, they are more conscious of having organic food. a healthy lifestyle and they, they are more conscious of having organic food.
20:60

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But because they, they landed in a rainforest But because they, they landed in a rainforest
21:02

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Sometimes hygiene Sometimes hygiene
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and sanitation was slack. Whereas if you, if you went up to the coast where the and sanitation was slack. Whereas if you, if you went up to the coast where the
21:07

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councils had more control, in the hinterland there, sanitation was all right councils had more control, in the hinterland there, sanitation was all right
21:11

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But people mightn't have realised so much, about.. But people mightn't have realised so much, about..
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that there are alternative ways of dealing with health problems and things like that there are alternative ways of dealing with health problems and things like
21:16

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that. It was..It was always very dualistic. that. It was..It was always very dualistic.
21:20

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That's what I found. I mean if I breastfed the children here, publicly to a late age That's what I found. I mean if I breastfed the children here, publicly to a late age
21:24

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that was never a problem. If I did it up there, you know over the border that was never a problem. If I did it up there, you know over the border
21:29

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That was more conspicuous. That was more conspicuous.
21:31

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But if I fed the children sweets down here, which I think is perfectly correct, then But if I fed the children sweets down here, which I think is perfectly correct, then
21:36

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that might be a cause of some neighbourly interference. that might be a cause of some neighbourly interference.
21:39

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If I fed them sweets up there, that was no problem. If I fed them sweets up there, that was no problem.
21:42

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It was like that always, I always had that experience. It was like that always, I always had that experience.
21:44

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If I birthed the children at home If I birthed the children at home
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up there, which I did because our house wasn't finished here up there, which I did because our house wasn't finished here
21:49

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and my mother was up there, she was a midwife, then and my mother was up there, she was a midwife, then
21:52

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that wasn't a problem. Here people said that home birth is fine that wasn't a problem. Here people said that home birth is fine
21:55

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and in those days I had, I had no feeling of going near a hospital. I had 3 and in those days I had, I had no feeling of going near a hospital. I had 3
21:59

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healthy children. But... healthy children. But...
22:01

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But if I..If I was home birthing up there people would, would say But if I..If I was home birthing up there people would, would say
22:04

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"Good heavens how unguarded of you." "Good heavens how unguarded of you."
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So I always had this experience of living between, but not so much So I always had this experience of living between, but not so much
22:11

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now. I think that some of the ideas that were, that were current and now. I think that some of the ideas that were, that were current and
22:14

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that were good ideas that came here, have spread widely so that that were good ideas that came here, have spread widely so that
22:18

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when I say to my cousins. when I say to my cousins.
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"Look you don't have to come up here to see. If you've been being true to the "Look you don't have to come up here to see. If you've been being true to the
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traditions, the Australian traditions of, of looking after your children traditions, the Australian traditions of, of looking after your children
22:27

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and having basic morality, and giving them and having basic morality, and giving them
22:30

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you know a healthy lifestyle and keeping them in touch with nature, then that.. you know a healthy lifestyle and keeping them in touch with nature, then that..
22:33

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We're no different to them. I mean, it's not so different now'. We're no different to them. I mean, it's not so different now'.
22:36

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Is that, helpful? (You said that um, you don't get that much from the group experience anymore. Has that been generally the group experience? I mean Is that, helpful? (You said that um, you don't get that much from the group experience anymore. Has that been generally the group experience? I mean
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Where is it?) I..I dunno know. I draw a lot of strength from beautiful people who are here. Where is it?) I..I dunno know. I draw a lot of strength from beautiful people who are here.
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You know, that, that have come. I mean I've met some extraordinary souls here. You know, that, that have come. I mean I've met some extraordinary souls here.
22:57

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Who, who came you know with Who, who came you know with
22:59

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most beautiful ideas and, and managed to manifest them but most beautiful ideas and, and managed to manifest them but
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but also I mean we had people who were travelling through who were, who are you know but also I mean we had people who were travelling through who were, who are you know
23:08

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out of it. out of it.
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Who had..had had too many drugs, who are difficult to deal with. We've had both. It's very Who had..had had too many drugs, who are difficult to deal with. We've had both. It's very
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extreme. And they've been more free to express themselves here extreme. And they've been more free to express themselves here
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than they would have in other places. than they would have in other places.
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But I don't draw so much from the group life as a whole, though I did But I don't draw so much from the group life as a whole, though I did
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when the children were going to the kindergartens when the children were going to the kindergartens
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and it was very much a group-parent sort of endeavour. and it was very much a group-parent sort of endeavour.
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But I do draw from..from the people who felt to come here, some friendships. But I do draw from..from the people who felt to come here, some friendships.
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So I guess that's the way. So I guess that's the way.
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But that's just. I think that's to do with my personality too. I'm. But that's just. I think that's to do with my personality too. I'm.
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I don't know. I wouldn't have like - I didn't like school or large groups very much I don't know. I wouldn't have like - I didn't like school or large groups very much
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anyway, in the first place. So it seems odd to have come to a commune anyway, in the first place. So it seems odd to have come to a commune
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but there it was. [laughs] (Are there stressful..Are there stresses but there it was. [laughs] (Are there stressful..Are there stresses
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Extremes that tend to meet in Nimbin? I mean is it somehow a stressful place because of...) Extremes that tend to meet in Nimbin? I mean is it somehow a stressful place because of...)
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I think it can be. I think it can be.
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Yes. I've seen good people who've had good ideas and have been harassed Yes. I've seen good people who've had good ideas and have been harassed
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and criticised for them and have, who've left and criticised for them and have, who've left
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and I've seen good strong people who've managed to put their point of view and have and I've seen good strong people who've managed to put their point of view and have
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stayed. Um. I think because we were such a loud generation - stayed. Um. I think because we were such a loud generation -
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everybody had their opinions and some of them were very good - but that everybody had their opinions and some of them were very good - but that
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that cause people conflict I think, that that's sort of thing. that cause people conflict I think, that that's sort of thing.
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And also, also I've seen incredible wisdom in people And also, also I've seen incredible wisdom in people
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and managing to deal with other people and managing to deal with other people
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and to, to draw on experiences, to...to know themselves more and to mature. and to, to draw on experiences, to...to know themselves more and to mature.
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I've seen both really. I've seen people who are deluded and still are. I've seen both really. I've seen people who are deluded and still are.
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And I've seen people who've, who've realised. And I've seen people who've, who've realised.
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Well what it comes down to an end, which is that Well what it comes down to an end, which is that
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that their god consciousness if you like. The fact that God created the planet that their god consciousness if you like. The fact that God created the planet
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and that they're to, they're here to care for it and to care for other people. and that they're to, they're here to care for it and to care for other people.
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I've seen people reach that, that stage I've seen people reach that, that stage
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and I've seen people miss it completely. Both [laughs]. That's it. and I've seen people miss it completely. Both [laughs]. That's it.
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Right. (Do people come, come here, for the challenge? I mean, to be challenged? Did you come here Right. (Do people come, come here, for the challenge? I mean, to be challenged? Did you come here
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to be challenged?) No, but it probably did me good. I certainly was challenged. to be challenged?) No, but it probably did me good. I certainly was challenged.
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I mean we had thousands of people. I mean we had thousands of people.
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it seemed like, coming through here before the house was built. The early days were it seemed like, coming through here before the house was built. The early days were
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pretty hectic. I had little children and all the things pretty hectic. I had little children and all the things
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that other people dealt with. No water and things like that at first. that other people dealt with. No water and things like that at first.
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That kind of stuff. That kind of stuff.
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But I had it easier than some because I..I did go across the bord-, across the border But I had it easier than some because I..I did go across the bord-, across the border
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so that they were co-parenting by my mother so that they were co-parenting by my mother
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and David had work to do sometimes up there, so we were coming back and forth. and David had work to do sometimes up there, so we were coming back and forth.
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Some people had it harder than that. You know. That's true. Some people had it harder than that. You know. That's true.
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But on the other hand I think some people, I hopefully I feel that that But on the other hand I think some people, I hopefully I feel that that
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that they drew, drew support from the group in their hard times, more. Would you that they drew, drew support from the group in their hard times, more. Would you
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reckon that's right, Kali? Yeah. Well you get both. That's right. Yeah. And it's tricky. reckon that's right, Kali? Yeah. Well you get both. That's right. Yeah. And it's tricky.
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It's painful when you get somebody criticising. I mean I, I married David It's painful when you get somebody criticising. I mean I, I married David
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and came here and I didn't agree with that rule that there should be no dogs. and came here and I didn't agree with that rule that there should be no dogs.
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I can. I can.
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Understand people's logic behind it because there are lots of paddy melons Understand people's logic behind it because there are lots of paddy melons
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and stuff like that and stuff like that
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but I never would have come to a community where there weren't dogs. but I never would have come to a community where there weren't dogs.
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So when I tried to bring dogs in and just followed my feelings on So when I tried to bring dogs in and just followed my feelings on
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that, because I really think that, that people and animals should be close, that, because I really think that, that people and animals should be close,
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I think that's why Christ was born in a stable, to show that the animals I think that's why Christ was born in a stable, to show that the animals
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and people are meant to be close, and we had the sort of dogs and people are meant to be close, and we had the sort of dogs
26:22

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that didn't chase paddy melons, but I got into a lot of conflict there and that didn't chase paddy melons, but I got into a lot of conflict there and
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that was hurtful, but it is I suppose that happens in any walk of life that was hurtful, but it is I suppose that happens in any walk of life
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and to a degree. You know. Although perhaps we were more overt about it here. and to a degree. You know. Although perhaps we were more overt about it here.
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I don't know. Perhaps that's why. Yeah. (Is there a sense that I don't know. Perhaps that's why. Yeah. (Is there a sense that
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been on for a long time, about guns and dogs. There, there never actually seems to be a consensus?) No. That's right. been on for a long time, about guns and dogs. There, there never actually seems to be a consensus?) No. That's right.
26:46

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And this is, that's what David says, my husband. And this is, that's what David says, my husband.
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This is the, the biggest land cooperative where people have come together This is the, the biggest land cooperative where people have come together
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and that's one of the astonishingly good things about it. and that's one of the astonishingly good things about it.
26:54

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That you said once. The fact that people with a tiny bit of capital, That you said once. The fact that people with a tiny bit of capital,
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and we were lucky because from David's father we had more capital and we were lucky because from David's father we had more capital
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than other people to set up fruit trees and to help build a house. than other people to set up fruit trees and to help build a house.
27:04

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But for people with small amount of capital they can get access to land But for people with small amount of capital they can get access to land
27:08

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and the land has always been locked in Australia from earliest times and the land has always been locked in Australia from earliest times
27:12

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and so that's, that's, that was very important. That was revolutionary and so that's, that's, that was very important. That was revolutionary
27:15

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and that's something that should be observed. Um..On the other hand and that's something that should be observed. Um..On the other hand
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that had a prob-it's problems too because we, where we are here we are insulated by a that had a prob-it's problems too because we, where we are here we are insulated by a
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creek and it, and um, the forest at the back creek and it, and um, the forest at the back
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but some people who mightn't have had such a strong personality might have got pushed but some people who mightn't have had such a strong personality might have got pushed
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more into a corner, in earlier times more into a corner, in earlier times
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and not been allowed to have so much land as somebody else who was, because it and not been allowed to have so much land as somebody else who was, because it
27:37

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wasn't all set up with rules and regulations. wasn't all set up with rules and regulations.
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I think since then land cooperatives have made it more fair by trying to make it I think since then land cooperatives have made it more fair by trying to make it
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spelled out at the beginning who could be where and what they had. (I guess I was trying to talk about the spelled out at the beginning who could be where and what they had. (I guess I was trying to talk about the
27:51

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no rules and the..[inaudible]) Right. no rules and the..[inaudible]) Right.
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Yeah. (Tuntable now has a..what is it? 40 page computer print out) Has it? (of rules and regulations.) Oh. I haven't seen it. Yeah. (Tuntable now has a..what is it? 40 page computer print out) Has it? (of rules and regulations.) Oh. I haven't seen it.
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Is that right? (Or maybe that's..that's ?the truth about?) What you're talking about there is anarchy isn't it? Is that right? (Or maybe that's..that's ?the truth about?) What you're talking about there is anarchy isn't it?
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And that that's the spirit. That's in heaven. And that that's the spirit. That's in heaven.
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I mean if everybody who had come here had had that heavenly vision I mean if everybody who had come here had had that heavenly vision
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or had managed to hang onto it. or had managed to hang onto it.
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Then you wouldn't have ever had any problem. And a lot of them did. Then you wouldn't have ever had any problem. And a lot of them did.
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But also it was very quickly earth with, with a lot of disputes which I guess were, But also it was very quickly earth with, with a lot of disputes which I guess were,
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had to happen in the physical reality. But, but that had to happen in the physical reality. But, but that
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that heavenly vision. I don't have any doubt that heavenly vision. I don't have any doubt
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that people had it. It's really strange but I follow, that people had it. It's really strange but I follow,
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I follow um, astrology and um, I follow um, astrology and um,
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and our generation was a Leo generation. That's why they were such um, argumentative and our generation was a Leo generation. That's why they were such um, argumentative
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talkers. But they also had um, their Leo was in Pisces which is talkers. But they also had um, their Leo was in Pisces which is
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the sign of the person who's at their oldest stage of life the sign of the person who's at their oldest stage of life
28:53

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and has a heavenly vision, as well as an earthly vision. That's why old people sit and has a heavenly vision, as well as an earthly vision. That's why old people sit
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and dream. They're in heaven away. And so we got our heavenly vision at that age. and dream. They're in heaven away. And so we got our heavenly vision at that age.
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Some people get it at a different age. And ah. Some people get it at a different age. And ah.
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Everybody has their chance I think to, to, to envision something of that Everybody has their chance I think to, to, to envision something of that
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that Christ-like thing on the earth, and I think people did have that that Christ-like thing on the earth, and I think people did have that
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but of course, you know, the earth is not perfect. but of course, you know, the earth is not perfect.
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So some of the things that were done were perfect So some of the things that were done were perfect
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and some of them weren't. That's about it. and some of them weren't. That's about it.
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That. It keeps coming under the same point doesn't it? (Yes. Thanks.) That. It keeps coming under the same point doesn't it? (Yes. Thanks.)
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Right. Good. (You talked about um, some people drop er, dropping out in Nimbin as a reaction against being schooled to death for something...having no phone?) Right. Good. (You talked about um, some people drop er, dropping out in Nimbin as a reaction against being schooled to death for something...having no phone?)
29:43

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Yes. I think that's probably too I meant true. We had a fine education Yes. I think that's probably too I meant true. We had a fine education
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and I know we had a lot of skills from that, but I know and I know we had a lot of skills from that, but I know
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that also we had more than a lot of other generations experience of classrooms, to a that also we had more than a lot of other generations experience of classrooms, to a
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very late age, especially the ones who went on to tertiary very late age, especially the ones who went on to tertiary
30:00

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institutions. And I know that the early days in Nimbin institutions. And I know that the early days in Nimbin
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were partly a, a childhood that was played out. were partly a, a childhood that was played out.
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I mean there was a lot of fun. People, people didn't have no clothes I mean there was a lot of fun. People, people didn't have no clothes
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and they did walk all over the place and dance and sing. I mean there was and they did walk all over the place and dance and sing. I mean there was
30:12

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that crazy sort of summer of, of, of. that crazy sort of summer of, of, of.
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Just an innocence in a way. I mean that, that brought its problems to but. Just an innocence in a way. I mean that, that brought its problems to but.
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But in a way that, that was a childhood that some people had never had But in a way that, that was a childhood that some people had never had
30:25

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that they dropped out to, to enjoy. And, and as always happens that there're people, that they dropped out to, to enjoy. And, and as always happens that there're people,
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if they don't go through a certain stage have got to do it if they don't go through a certain stage have got to do it
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later. And a lot of people had a freedom then later. And a lot of people had a freedom then
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That was That was
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that was very beautiful. It was, it was a celebration. There were some very good that was very beautiful. It was, it was a celebration. There were some very good
30:40

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things, that, that people enjoyed in terms of things, that, that people enjoyed in terms of
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just, just being free for a while. (Is the loss of innocence, an issue then? Or is that one of your theories? just, just being free for a while. (Is the loss of innocence, an issue then? Or is that one of your theories?
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Has it changed?) Well, people are no longer young, I guess and it's not appropriate Has it changed?) Well, people are no longer young, I guess and it's not appropriate
30:60

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I don't think t-to try and call that, that back. I don't think t-to try and call that, that back.
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That was a special time. I mean there are echoes of it all around. But I think that That was a special time. I mean there are echoes of it all around. But I think that
31:07

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That was a time that was given That was a time that was given
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and then you're supposed to get the messages from your time and then you're supposed to get the messages from your time
31:12

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and realise the things that you dreamt of, so I don't think that that's so appropriate and realise the things that you dreamt of, so I don't think that that's so appropriate
31:17

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Now but it was appropriate. Now but it was appropriate.
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then. Ah, it was a very special freedom and there were very special friendships. then. Ah, it was a very special freedom and there were very special friendships.
31:23

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And, And,
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and of course many previous generations had been too tightly controlled and of course many previous generations had been too tightly controlled
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and sexual morality comes into that. and sexual morality comes into that.