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I've never seen it before. Okay tape I.D., it is Friday 13th of November, 1992. We're in Lismore I've never seen it before. Okay tape I.D., it is Friday 13th of November, 1992. We're in Lismore
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I am speaking with Jenny Del. I am speaking with Jenny Del.
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Let's start by who you are and how you fit into it Let's start by who you are and how you fit into it
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this wonderful picture. Okay this wonderful picture. Okay
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I'm Jenny Dell I lived at Nimbin for 11 years from 1974 I'm Jenny Dell I lived at Nimbin for 11 years from 1974
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um, having arrived there from England um, having arrived there from England
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and I had, I'd come to Australia to see if there was any form of counterculture here at and I had, I'd come to Australia to see if there was any form of counterculture here at
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all. I didn't want to remain living in England where i'd been brought up and, um, all. I didn't want to remain living in England where i'd been brought up and, um,
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having arrived at Perth and having arrived at Perth and
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then travelled on to Adelaide I was sort of asking everywhere I went then travelled on to Adelaide I was sort of asking everywhere I went
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If there was any alternative culture If there was any alternative culture
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around Australia and it turned out around Australia and it turned out
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that it was a year after the Aquarius Festival had been held at Nimbin that it was a year after the Aquarius Festival had been held at Nimbin
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and the closer I got to the eastern states and the closer I got to the eastern states
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the more people were saying, oh you should check out Nimbin. So I arrived here, the more people were saying, oh you should check out Nimbin. So I arrived here,
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actually on my way to the Atherton Tableland which I thought would be a nice actually on my way to the Atherton Tableland which I thought would be a nice
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place to go and look at and I'd heard place to go and look at and I'd heard
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that there were also alternative lifestylers living up there too. that there were also alternative lifestylers living up there too.
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And arrived in Nimbin on a Sunday afternoon and went into the craft shop And arrived in Nimbin on a Sunday afternoon and went into the craft shop
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and asked "where's the commune?" and everybody fell about laughing because and asked "where's the commune?" and everybody fell about laughing because
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that was what everyone who arrived at Nimbin always used to ask, "where's the commune?" that was what everyone who arrived at Nimbin always used to ask, "where's the commune?"
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and the only commune at that time was not strictly speaking a commune and the only commune at that time was not strictly speaking a commune
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but a co-operative that had been bought immediately after the Aquarius Festival but a co-operative that had been bought immediately after the Aquarius Festival
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And it was about at that time. Twelve hundred acres of land in a valley. And it was about at that time. Twelve hundred acres of land in a valley.
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That had once had a sawmill at the end of it. That had once had a sawmill at the end of it.
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So there was quite a lot of tree loss and erosion on the land already So there was quite a lot of tree loss and erosion on the land already
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but it had been sold by a guy calls Sam Mackay to but it had been sold by a guy calls Sam Mackay to
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A co-operative of i think it was 900 shareholders. A co-operative of i think it was 900 shareholders.
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after the Aquarius Festival and after the Aquarius Festival and
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and set up as a, a sort of piece of liberated land in a way and set up as a, a sort of piece of liberated land in a way
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that was no longer on the open market but that for $200 and a $50 joining fee. that was no longer on the open market but that for $200 and a $50 joining fee.
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One could become a shareholder and One could become a shareholder and
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and part of this extraordinary experiment in land ownership. and part of this extraordinary experiment in land ownership.
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and uh, I arrived there with a caravan and uh and uh, I arrived there with a caravan and uh
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A husband and two children and we lived in the caravan for the first six months A husband and two children and we lived in the caravan for the first six months
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or so that we were there or so that we were there
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and then we're lucky enough to be able to move into one of the very few existing and then we're lucky enough to be able to move into one of the very few existing
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houses on the property. houses on the property.
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I think there were probably four or five old ramshackle houses I think there were probably four or five old ramshackle houses
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that had been pretty much derelict when the land was bought that had been pretty much derelict when the land was bought
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and we lived in one of those. and we lived in one of those.
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And we considered ourselves very lucky to have such a large roof over our heads And we considered ourselves very lucky to have such a large roof over our heads
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because at that time it was very tough at Tuntable Falls. It was because at that time it was very tough at Tuntable Falls. It was
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The early part of 1974 there was the worst wet season The early part of 1974 there was the worst wet season
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that people could remember for years, and years, and years that people could remember for years, and years, and years
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and most people who moved onto the land were living in temporary shelters and most people who moved onto the land were living in temporary shelters
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or caravans or tents or caravans or tents
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or whatever they could sort of scrape together to keep the rain off them. or whatever they could sort of scrape together to keep the rain off them.
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And basically survival was the name of the game. Nobody had very much money. And basically survival was the name of the game. Nobody had very much money.
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And so in a way we were very dependent on each other for help and support And so in a way we were very dependent on each other for help and support
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and transport because only one family in maybe five and transport because only one family in maybe five
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or six would actually have reliable transportation. And at or six would actually have reliable transportation. And at
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that time time Tuntable owned one big truck which frequently used to be used to take that time time Tuntable owned one big truck which frequently used to be used to take
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everyone to a dance or a party or to the beach at the weekend or whatever. everyone to a dance or a party or to the beach at the weekend or whatever.
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When you say you came to Australia looking for an alternative lifestyle what sort of things were you looking for? When you say you came to Australia looking for an alternative lifestyle what sort of things were you looking for?
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Well i had a very precise impression of what it was I wanted, the way Well i had a very precise impression of what it was I wanted, the way
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that i wanted to live that i wanted to live
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and sitting up in the North of England through a very cold winter in and sitting up in the North of England through a very cold winter in
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1973. 1973.
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I looked at world atlases to see on many levels where would be the best place on I looked at world atlases to see on many levels where would be the best place on
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the planet for me to live the planet for me to live
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that would be possible for me to live because of you know immigration allowances that would be possible for me to live because of you know immigration allowances
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and and
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that sort of stuff so first i was attracted to definitely a warm climate. I wanted that sort of stuff so first i was attracted to definitely a warm climate. I wanted
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to be somewhere warm to be somewhere warm
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and i first looked at what used to be called British Honduras which is now Belize and i first looked at what used to be called British Honduras which is now Belize
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in central America and that's looked very appealing and i looked into in central America and that's looked very appealing and i looked into
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that very carefully. that very carefully.
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And um, but from those investigations it looked as if..you know, to live the way And um, but from those investigations it looked as if..you know, to live the way
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that I wanted to live would be quite difficult there because of the, you know, sort of that I wanted to live would be quite difficult there because of the, you know, sort of
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political situation in Central and South America. political situation in Central and South America.
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And at that time Australia had a White Australia Policy. It had conscription. And at that time Australia had a White Australia Policy. It had conscription.
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And it was involved in the Vietnam War. And it was involved in the Vietnam War.
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And all of those things were most unappealing to me And all of those things were most unappealing to me
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and particularly conscription because I had a baby son. and particularly conscription because I had a baby son.
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and so I sort of discounted Australia, although for an english person who wanted to and so I sort of discounted Australia, although for an english person who wanted to
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go and live in a warm climate it was the obvious place to choose. But then go and live in a warm climate it was the obvious place to choose. But then
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A lot of television A lot of television
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and radio coverage was given in England to Gough Whitlam's campaign for election. and radio coverage was given in England to Gough Whitlam's campaign for election.
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I guess that was 1973. I guess that was 1973.
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And er, I watched that And er, I watched that
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and and, was very interested in this guy. He was very favorably portrayed in the English and and, was very interested in this guy. He was very favorably portrayed in the English
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media, and er, when he was elected media, and er, when he was elected
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and announced an amnesty for draft dodgers and announced an amnesty for draft dodgers
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and the end of the White Australia Policy and the end of the White Australia Policy
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I thought 'that's it. I'm going to Australia. That..that's the place I want to be.' I thought 'that's it. I'm going to Australia. That..that's the place I want to be.'
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But in terms of counterculture I didn't know what would, what would be existing here But in terms of counterculture I didn't know what would, what would be existing here
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but i did know but i did know
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that I wanted to live in an area well away from major cities, where it would be that I wanted to live in an area well away from major cities, where it would be
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possible to grow one's own food. Where..I even had a sort of, pretty clear idea of the possible to grow one's own food. Where..I even had a sort of, pretty clear idea of the
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kind of landscape kind of landscape
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that I'd like to live in. Which was hills with lots of fresh running water that I'd like to live in. Which was hills with lots of fresh running water
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Not too far from the coast. Not too far from the coast.
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And And
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that I would want to be living in close proximity to a large number of like minded that I would want to be living in close proximity to a large number of like minded
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people, um, but not necessarily in a communal people, um, but not necessarily in a communal
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household as such. Because I'd had some experience of community living in England household as such. Because I'd had some experience of community living in England
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and had found that for other people more than for myself. and had found that for other people more than for myself.
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Young children in a communal Young children in a communal
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household can be quite a problem because parents have different ways of bringing household can be quite a problem because parents have different ways of bringing
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kids up and so on and it could lead to to friction and difficulty. kids up and so on and it could lead to to friction and difficulty.
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So my vision was that i would have my own little sort of unit with my kids So my vision was that i would have my own little sort of unit with my kids
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but be very close to and co-operative with a large group of other people but be very close to and co-operative with a large group of other people
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and so it turned out that when i arrived at nimbin exactly and so it turned out that when i arrived at nimbin exactly
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that was starting to grow there that was starting to grow there
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and it was so close to..to my vision of how I wanted to live. and it was so close to..to my vision of how I wanted to live.
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I couldn't have been closer. It was exactly the sort of ideas I couldn't have been closer. It was exactly the sort of ideas
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that I'd had. So I felt immediately connected to the people here. As that I'd had. So I felt immediately connected to the people here. As
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if you know, this was like a..a long lost family or something. And um, if you know, this was like a..a long lost family or something. And um,
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And very quickly settled into living here And very quickly settled into living here
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And in those days really none of us had anything. You know, we were all And in those days really none of us had anything. You know, we were all
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very poor. We had no money. We had no jobs. very poor. We had no money. We had no jobs.
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We were pretty dependent on government benefits in the early days as well, which um, We were pretty dependent on government benefits in the early days as well, which um,
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is you know, an aspect of..of Nimbin life is you know, an aspect of..of Nimbin life
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that I-I've had many differing positions on and that I-I've had many differing positions on and
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and the one I feel now is quite different from the one I had then I guess. and the one I feel now is quite different from the one I had then I guess.
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But in the early days we looked on the dole as a form of rural subsidy where it But in the early days we looked on the dole as a form of rural subsidy where it
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allowed people like ourselves to establish ourselves on degraded land allowed people like ourselves to establish ourselves on degraded land
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and there's no doubt and there's no doubt
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that the land was terribly degraded by years of um, over grazing that the land was terribly degraded by years of um, over grazing
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and being used as pasture in the dairy and cattle industry and being used as pasture in the dairy and cattle industry
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and also from being over logged and eroded because of that. So and also from being over logged and eroded because of that. So
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we..we felt that we you know were there to put something back into the land, and um. we..we felt that we you know were there to put something back into the land, and um.
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And also take the land off the endless cycle of capitalism and property. And also take the land off the endless cycle of capitalism and property.
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As in land being being a sort of form of currency As in land being being a sort of form of currency
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that by the very act of purchasing it co-operatively and having rules that by the very act of purchasing it co-operatively and having rules
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that said it could never be sold without everyone's agreement. We actually took the that said it could never be sold without everyone's agreement. We actually took the
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land out of that situation, which was land out of that situation, which was
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you know, ideologically an agreement that we all had you know, ideologically an agreement that we all had
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and one of the very few things that we all agreed on. And. and one of the very few things that we all agreed on. And.
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I think because we were so poor that we had to depend on each other and we had to. I think because we were so poor that we had to depend on each other and we had to.
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We had to live very closely together and share an awful lot of things We had to live very closely together and share an awful lot of things
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that suburban families and. that suburban families and.
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people, you know, who live sort of ordinary lives in the outside world don't share people, you know, who live sort of ordinary lives in the outside world don't share
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and er. That's a very taxing thing to do and you, you. and er. That's a very taxing thing to do and you, you.
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It doesn't always..it's not always a smooth path. And um, It doesn't always..it's not always a smooth path. And um,
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I think looking back on those early years of Tuntable Falls in the mid to late I think looking back on those early years of Tuntable Falls in the mid to late
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70's..th-the stuff 70's..th-the stuff
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that we learnt about living with other people. About human nature. About ourselves. that we learnt about living with other people. About human nature. About ourselves.
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About tolerance and compassion and, sort of, About tolerance and compassion and, sort of,
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Looking at something from other people's points of view Looking at something from other people's points of view
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and from many points of view. Was er, was beyond price. and from many points of view. Was er, was beyond price.
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I can't imagine a better training than than that and it seems now I can't imagine a better training than than that and it seems now
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that the children who were babies then and are now in their late teens that the children who were babies then and are now in their late teens
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and early twenties, have grown up steeped in and early twenties, have grown up steeped in
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that culture that culture
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and have emerged into the world incredibly enriched. and have emerged into the world incredibly enriched.
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And I, you know, any comparison is odious, but I really think that..that the kids And I, you know, any comparison is odious, but I really think that..that the kids
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that grew up there during that time and surrounded by that grew up there during that time and surrounded by
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that kind of activity have, have something extra. You know that other kids that kind of activity have, have something extra. You know that other kids
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unfortunately, you know, don't have unless they've lived in, in very special unfortunately, you know, don't have unless they've lived in, in very special
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circumstances as well. [Interviewer] What were the things about the Tuntable community that didn't work? You say there were lots of rules and ah, not too many people abiding by them.) [draws breath] circumstances as well. [Interviewer] What were the things about the Tuntable community that didn't work? You say there were lots of rules and ah, not too many people abiding by them.) [draws breath]
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Well I think, I think that was one of the reasons why it did work. The fact Well I think, I think that was one of the reasons why it did work. The fact
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that it was very hard to make rules, that it was very hard to make rules,
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and have everybody agreeing on the same issues. and have everybody agreeing on the same issues.
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I think was one of the reasons why it was possible for everyone to stay there I think was one of the reasons why it was possible for everyone to stay there
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because I think if there had been a very rigid structure then it wouldn't. because I think if there had been a very rigid structure then it wouldn't.
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We were too individualistic and it wouldn't have worked and people, people We were too individualistic and it wouldn't have worked and people, people
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would have fought too hard. would have fought too hard.
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But interestingly, although I've just sort of eulogized how wonderful the effect of But interestingly, although I've just sort of eulogized how wonderful the effect of
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it was on the kids, th-there was things about kids there, that for me it was on the kids, th-there was things about kids there, that for me
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didn't work. didn't work.
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and in fact constituted the reason why I left Tuntable Falls after two years. and in fact constituted the reason why I left Tuntable Falls after two years.
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And that was that um, And that was that um,
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It was very laissez faire, and 'anything goes' with kids It was very laissez faire, and 'anything goes' with kids
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and I was a parent who, although I was choosing the counterculture and I was a parent who, although I was choosing the counterculture
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and I was choosing you know to reduce everywhere I could around me the forms of and I was choosing you know to reduce everywhere I could around me the forms of
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authority and dominance that i was wanting to expel from my life. authority and dominance that i was wanting to expel from my life.
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At the same time I, I felt that to bring children up with no boundaries At the same time I, I felt that to bring children up with no boundaries
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and no limits was quite a confusing thing to do and no limits was quite a confusing thing to do
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and it was putting too much responsibility on tiny children. To constantly be giving and it was putting too much responsibility on tiny children. To constantly be giving
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them choices about what time they went to bed or you know, how far they could roam them choices about what time they went to bed or you know, how far they could roam
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or whether they got home before dark or not or whether they got home before dark or not
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and, I'm talking about you know, children from 18 months now up to say 6 years old and, I'm talking about you know, children from 18 months now up to say 6 years old
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because there weren't many at Tuntable who were older than 6 maybe one or two because there weren't many at Tuntable who were older than 6 maybe one or two
13:16

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but not many. And my children were very small. And the children ran in a pack but not many. And my children were very small. And the children ran in a pack
13:22

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and that was terrific. And it was, you know, there were many advantages in that and that was terrific. And it was, you know, there were many advantages in that
13:27

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but there were also disadvantages in but there were also disadvantages in
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that, I felt some other parents weren't quite as keen to take responsibility for that, I felt some other parents weren't quite as keen to take responsibility for
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their kids whereabouts and activities as I was and I.. their kids whereabouts and activities as I was and I..
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I was in very much a minority and wanting to set limits around my kids I was in very much a minority and wanting to set limits around my kids
13:45

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and in the end, um.. and in the end, um..
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It happened that darkness fell It happened that darkness fell
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and Bonnie who was then 18 months old had been out with the kids all day and Bonnie who was then 18 months old had been out with the kids all day
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and I didn't know where she was. It had been raining the creek was up. and I didn't know where she was. It had been raining the creek was up.
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It was a worrying time and at Tuntable when it's dark it's dark. No lighting. It was a worrying time and at Tuntable when it's dark it's dark. No lighting.
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There's no streetlights or anything. There's no streetlights or anything.
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And I went across the creek to the family whose children she, I knew she was with. And I went across the creek to the family whose children she, I knew she was with.
14:12

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And they were all stoned. And I said, you know, And they were all stoned. And I said, you know,
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Bonnie hasn't come home and i'm really worried and they all laughed and said it's cool. Bonnie hasn't come home and i'm really worried and they all laughed and said it's cool.
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And I thought 'No. I've had enough of this. And I thought 'No. I've had enough of this.
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I don't want to live like this. I don't want to live like this.
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This is scary.' and..She got home and she was ok. This is scary.' and..She got home and she was ok.
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But all the same I began to feel But all the same I began to feel
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that you know, I really needed to get the kids away from a situation like that you know, I really needed to get the kids away from a situation like
14:40

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that. Now, that was a decision I had to make for my own peace of mind and it that. Now, that was a decision I had to make for my own peace of mind and it
14:45

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and it doesn't mean to say that children who remained in and it doesn't mean to say that children who remained in
14:47

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that situation haven't emerged just as wonderful and, you know, terrific kids that situation haven't emerged just as wonderful and, you know, terrific kids
14:54

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as could be. But um, for me it was a bit too uncomfortable. So for me as could be. But um, for me it was a bit too uncomfortable. So for me
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That was one thing That was one thing
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that didn't work. that didn't work.
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Well it was a natural part of life. You know, it was, it was a part of life. Well it was a natural part of life. You know, it was, it was a part of life.
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It was part of everybody's life. I can't think of anyone who had no experience no It was part of everybody's life. I can't think of anyone who had no experience no
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there wouldn't have been anyone who had no experience of dope being smoked around them. there wouldn't have been anyone who had no experience of dope being smoked around them.
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And ah, there wouldn't have been many people who wouldn't..you know, have a toke of the And ah, there wouldn't have been many people who wouldn't..you know, have a toke of the
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joint as it went by. Um, But at joint as it went by. Um, But at
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that time. Also very importantly in that context that time. Also very importantly in that context
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there was only one person that I knew of at there was only one person that I knew of at
15:37

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that time who lived on Tuntable falls who went to the pub who drank at all. that time who lived on Tuntable falls who went to the pub who drank at all.
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I mean, occasionally people would have a drink and the guys would have a beer I mean, occasionally people would have a drink and the guys would have a beer
15:46

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or something like that or something like that
15:47

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but there's only one person who I would have identified who had a drinking problem. but there's only one person who I would have identified who had a drinking problem.
15:51

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You know, drank all the time and got drunk and abusive and horrible. And um, You know, drank all the time and got drunk and abusive and horrible. And um,
15:57

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And it was..nobody, nobody thought of going. And it was..nobody, nobody thought of going.
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to the pub it was it wasn't part of our culture to go to the pub. to the pub it was it wasn't part of our culture to go to the pub.
16:04

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As time went by that changed quite dramatically in fact. As time went by that changed quite dramatically in fact.
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But on occasions where..I remember But on occasions where..I remember
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when there was a big police bust at Tuntable in 1978. when there was a big police bust at Tuntable in 1978.
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And everyone was taken into Lismore and kept in custody all day And everyone was taken into Lismore and kept in custody all day
16:21

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and then they were let out in the evening and then they all went to the pub and then they were let out in the evening and then they all went to the pub
16:25

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and they all got drunk and they they came back in the Tuntable red truck and they all got drunk and they they came back in the Tuntable red truck
16:30

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and you could hear the truck when it hit the top of the valley and and you could hear the truck when it hit the top of the valley and
16:33

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that..from where I lived that was about 2 miles away. that..from where I lived that was about 2 miles away.
16:36

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And you could hear them singing in the truck as they came down the valley And you could hear them singing in the truck as they came down the valley
16:40

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and they were incredibly drunk. And I'd never seen that before. It was the only.. and they were incredibly drunk. And I'd never seen that before. It was the only..
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or since actually. I've never seen a whole lot of Tuntable people incredibly or since actually. I've never seen a whole lot of Tuntable people incredibly
16:51

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drunk all in a big pack. It was very unusual. [Interviewer] Tell us about that day that this legendary drunk drunk all in a big pack. It was very unusual. [Interviewer] Tell us about that day that this legendary drunk
16:59

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The drug bust was a- was a debacle from beginning to end The drug bust was a- was a debacle from beginning to end
17:02

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but at the time it was very frightening. but at the time it was very frightening.
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At At
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that time i suppose there would have been about um 200 people living at Tuntable that time i suppose there would have been about um 200 people living at Tuntable
17:11

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in various dwellings. Some houses in course of construction. Some existing houses in various dwellings. Some houses in course of construction. Some existing houses
17:16

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and tents and so on. and tents and so on.
17:19

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And it was a simultaneous raid on several parts of the community because we had And it was a simultaneous raid on several parts of the community because we had
17:24

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established little hamlets which were like tiny villages in the valley established little hamlets which were like tiny villages in the valley
17:28

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that were clustered around central facilities like you know, washing up that were clustered around central facilities like you know, washing up
17:32

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and shower and toilet facilities. And um, and shower and toilet facilities. And um,
17:37

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The police arrived before dawn. The police arrived before dawn.
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It was a commando style raid. They were in, there were some uniformed It was a commando style raid. They were in, there were some uniformed
17:43

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and some plainclothes police they arrived in sort of army trucks like covered and some plainclothes police they arrived in sort of army trucks like covered
17:50

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trucks armed, and sort of, the ones trucks armed, and sort of, the ones
17:55

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that came down to near where I lived at the north end parked uh a short distance from that came down to near where I lived at the north end parked uh a short distance from
17:59

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where I was living where I was living
18:01

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and right next to the house of the guy who'd originally owned the land and right next to the house of the guy who'd originally owned the land
18:04

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and still had an agreement after he'd sold it and still had an agreement after he'd sold it
18:07

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that he could live there until his death. that he could live there until his death.
18:10

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And the first person to become aware before dawn And the first person to become aware before dawn
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that they were there was his housekeeper, ?Ervy?, who was a middle aged Nimbin that they were there was his housekeeper, ?Ervy?, who was a middle aged Nimbin
18:20

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settler, she was settler, she was
18:21

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you know, an original person of the area who never had anything to do with you know, an original person of the area who never had anything to do with
18:26

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marijuana marijuana
18:26

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and who has life had been quite changed by the advent of 200 hippies into her and who has life had been quite changed by the advent of 200 hippies into her
18:31

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backyard. But she was a most loving and compassionate and tolerant woman backyard. But she was a most loving and compassionate and tolerant woman
18:35

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and er, very friendly with all of us and very kind. and er, very friendly with all of us and very kind.
18:38

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And it was her birthday And it was her birthday
18:39

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and she woke up to, to see this shadow of a truck coming under the trees and she woke up to, to see this shadow of a truck coming under the trees
18:46

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and then these figures in uniforms with guns jumping out of the truck and then these figures in uniforms with guns jumping out of the truck
18:50

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and she was absolutely terrified. and she was absolutely terrified.
18:53

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As were we all as these guys uh you know approached our various dwellings As were we all as these guys uh you know approached our various dwellings
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and er, you know, came in and turned everything upside down looking for marijuana. and er, you know, came in and turned everything upside down looking for marijuana.
19:04

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Which you know, when you think back on it was very foolish. It was August. Which you know, when you think back on it was very foolish. It was August.
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You know You know
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I mean, anyone who knows anything about the marijuana growing season would not I mean, anyone who knows anything about the marijuana growing season would not
19:14

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come looking for anything in August. come looking for anything in August.
19:18

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Anyway they came Anyway they came
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and of course they found little stashes of dope, little ends of joints and of course they found little stashes of dope, little ends of joints
19:25

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and stuff in practically every house they visited, naturally. And um. and stuff in practically every house they visited, naturally. And um.
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And they took people from just about every household into Lismore And they took people from just about every household into Lismore
19:36

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and fingerprinted and photographed and charged them all with possession and. and fingerprinted and photographed and charged them all with possession and.
19:41

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I wasn't among the people arrested I wasn't among the people arrested
19:43

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but there were people in my household who-who were taken in but there were people in my household who-who were taken in
19:47

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and it, I mean the whole thing was terribly frightening and it, I mean the whole thing was terribly frightening
19:49

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and there was so many young children at Tuntable at that time and there was so many young children at Tuntable at that time
19:52

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and for one of their early childhood experiences to be a commando style raid on their and for one of their early childhood experiences to be a commando style raid on their
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home, and the removal of significant adults home, and the removal of significant adults
20:00

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in their life from their environment people who they'd experienced as being harmless in their life from their environment people who they'd experienced as being harmless
20:05

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humorous, gentle people to be so violently removed from their humorous, gentle people to be so violently removed from their
20:12

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homes was, was a really a shocking thing to happen. homes was, was a really a shocking thing to happen.
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And you know, I mean none of us were living there in order to subject our kids And you know, I mean none of us were living there in order to subject our kids
20:20

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and ourselves to that kind of shocking violence. and ourselves to that kind of shocking violence.
20:23

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But it happened and uh eventually the due process was observed But it happened and uh eventually the due process was observed
20:29

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and everyone had to appear in court and. and everyone had to appear in court and.
20:32

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the scene at the Lismore Court House on the day the scene at the Lismore Court House on the day
20:35

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when the charges were to be answered was extraordinary. when the charges were to be answered was extraordinary.
20:39

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We had musicians and dancers and people looking beautiful in silks and satins We had musicians and dancers and people looking beautiful in silks and satins
20:44

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and a festival atmosphere outside the courthouse and and a festival atmosphere outside the courthouse and
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some pretty smart lawyers from Sydney as well, and a barrister and. some pretty smart lawyers from Sydney as well, and a barrister and.
20:56

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It was discovered quite early in the piece It was discovered quite early in the piece
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that the original warrant had actually been invalid. that the original warrant had actually been invalid.
21:04

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And the police ended up with egg on their faces And the police ended up with egg on their faces
21:05

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and all the charges had to be dropped and nothing came of it. But and all the charges had to be dropped and nothing came of it. But
21:13

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what remained was the fact that we had been violated. what remained was the fact that we had been violated.
21:16

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Our community had been violated. Our community had been violated.
21:19

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Sure it may be that, you know, if we had been breaking the law in a big way Sure it may be that, you know, if we had been breaking the law in a big way
21:24

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or been anyone living there who at or been anyone living there who at
21:26

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that time was making enormous amounts of money out of growing marijuana that time was making enormous amounts of money out of growing marijuana
21:31

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that there might have been a little more excuse for it than there was that there might have been a little more excuse for it than there was
21:35

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but um, then I suppose it's a sort of tax you pay on turning your back on, on some of but um, then I suppose it's a sort of tax you pay on turning your back on, on some of
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the rules of the society and deciding the rules of the society and deciding
21:45

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that you can set up under a different set of rules. Um, that you can set up under a different set of rules. Um,
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And we certainly paid And we certainly paid
21:50

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that tax. Subsequent years there were people in that tax. Subsequent years there were people in
21:56

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that area who were growing a lot of marijuana for profit. And um.. that area who were growing a lot of marijuana for profit. And um..
22:04

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That's never felt very good to me either. That's never felt very good to me either.
22:06

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And you know, I as that started to happen I'm.. And you know, I as that started to happen I'm..
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I began to feel that I wasn't really interested in that either, you know. I began to feel that I wasn't really interested in that either, you know.
22:15

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And er, of course a lot of us now who were you know, into the dope culture then And er, of course a lot of us now who were you know, into the dope culture then
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are not in it now. Maybe we've grown out of it or you know whatever are not in it now. Maybe we've grown out of it or you know whatever
22:28

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but um it did become I think a little overrepresented at Nimbin but um it did become I think a little overrepresented at Nimbin
22:33

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and certainly over-represented there now. And it's a problem and certainly over-represented there now. And it's a problem
22:38

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that..that's become a problem. Where in the very early years that..that's become a problem. Where in the very early years
22:43

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It was actually part of a solution. It was actually part of a solution.
22:46

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It wasn't a problem at all, and in fact a lot of people, or not It wasn't a problem at all, and in fact a lot of people, or not
22:50

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a lot of people, but, you know, a good dozen a lot of people, but, you know, a good dozen
22:52

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or so people came to Nimbin in order to get away from the cities, who had been drug or so people came to Nimbin in order to get away from the cities, who had been drug
22:57

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addicted in the past. To hard drugs like, heroin specifically addicted in the past. To hard drugs like, heroin specifically
23:03

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and they came to Nimbin in order to be away from that culture and they came to Nimbin in order to be away from that culture
23:06

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and successfully stayed away from it because there wasn't any heroin in Nimbin. and successfully stayed away from it because there wasn't any heroin in Nimbin.
23:12

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And um..The little marijuana that people grew And um..The little marijuana that people grew
23:15

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and sort of, shared among themselves was er, was used in much the same way as people and sort of, shared among themselves was er, was used in much the same way as people
23:22

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have a drinks cabinet in other households and. It was a form of relaxation have a drinks cabinet in other households and. It was a form of relaxation
23:27

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and er, you know, some people used it as a creative stimulant and er, you know, some people used it as a creative stimulant
23:32

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or whatever and it didn't seem to be such a problem or whatever and it didn't seem to be such a problem
23:36

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but over the years a lot of people became very dependent on it but over the years a lot of people became very dependent on it
23:42

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and you know, I don't believe you can really be addicted to marijuana unless you're and you know, I don't believe you can really be addicted to marijuana unless you're
23:47

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an addictive personality and, you know an addictive personality and, you know
23:49

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If it wasn't marijuana it would be something else. If it wasn't marijuana it would be something else.
23:52

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but uh certainly some of the behaviours. but uh certainly some of the behaviours.
23:54

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Later on when..when there were people who'd become habituated over many years to Later on when..when there were people who'd become habituated over many years to
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using large quantities of marijuana, using large quantities of marijuana,
24:03

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that began to look at you know, a bit weird because, it does tend to zap you of that began to look at you know, a bit weird because, it does tend to zap you of
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motivation and energy. And perhaps more might have been achieved without it. motivation and energy. And perhaps more might have been achieved without it.
24:16

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[Interviewer] When did heroin arrive in Nimbin do you think in a big way? [Jenny] I really don't know [Interviewer] When did heroin arrive in Nimbin do you think in a big way? [Jenny] I really don't know
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but i would say that it certainly wasn't until the eighties but i would say that it certainly wasn't until the eighties
24:28

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and I don't know how far into the eighties. and I don't know how far into the eighties.
24:31

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It's quite an extraordinary thing for me personally It's quite an extraordinary thing for me personally
24:33

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that er, you know, despite having been part of the counterculture for so long that er, you know, despite having been part of the counterculture for so long
24:38

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and having known heaps of junkies and having known heaps of junkies
24:40

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and you know, people who..who've been using, I've never actually seen heroin in my and you know, people who..who've been using, I've never actually seen heroin in my
24:45

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whole life. whole life.
24:47

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And so I really..I only became conscious of it, I suppose about '82 '83. And so I really..I only became conscious of it, I suppose about '82 '83.
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That there were people who were using That there were people who were using
24:58

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or at least tasting, you know, if not actually regular users. or at least tasting, you know, if not actually regular users.
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I think it was around that time that I became aware I think it was around that time that I became aware
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that one of the..daughter of some people that I sort of, didn't know awfully well that one of the..daughter of some people that I sort of, didn't know awfully well
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but I knew quite well, and they had a daughter but I knew quite well, and they had a daughter
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who at that time would have been about 17, 16 maybe. And that she was using. And, and who at that time would have been about 17, 16 maybe. And that she was using. And, and
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that seemed to me really shocking and i hadn't really been aware that seemed to me really shocking and i hadn't really been aware
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but then I became aware that there were other adults who who had been using and but then I became aware that there were other adults who who had been using and
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that they were sharing it. that they were sharing it.
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Yes it was Yes it was
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Um..My kids who are coming to be close to teenage Um..My kids who are coming to be close to teenage
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and that was very scary and that was very scary
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that there was a teenager in town who, you know, who'd been offered that there was a teenager in town who, you know, who'd been offered
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and had accepted the use of heroin. Was..was quite alarming to me. And.. and had accepted the use of heroin. Was..was quite alarming to me. And..
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Yeah. I..I didn't feel like it was a good place to, to stay once a kids came to Yeah. I..I didn't feel like it was a good place to, to stay once a kids came to
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be that. Age. Also because by be that. Age. Also because by
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that time I was living in the main street of town, which is a very, very different that time I was living in the main street of town, which is a very, very different
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situation from living out in the hills, as most people did. I don't think..Oh there may situation from living out in the hills, as most people did. I don't think..Oh there may
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have been two or three other people living in town. have been two or three other people living in town.
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You know, who-who were part of the sort of 'new settler movement'. And um, the main street.. You know, who-who were part of the sort of 'new settler movement'. And um, the main street..
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It..It's sort of, where it all happens It..It's sort of, where it all happens
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and it's often said of Nimbin, I think it's true. That and it's often said of Nimbin, I think it's true. That
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It probably doesn't have any more problems than other places It probably doesn't have any more problems than other places
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but, at Nimbin they're really up front. but, at Nimbin they're really up front.
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They're on the street you can see them they're not hidden away in alleys They're on the street you can see them they're not hidden away in alleys
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and pushed out of sight under the carpet sort of thing. Do you think part of Nimbin's problem in dealing with that and pushed out of sight under the carpet sort of thing. Do you think part of Nimbin's problem in dealing with that
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or not dealing with that has been this level of tolerance, being around... or not dealing with that has been this level of tolerance, being around...
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Yeah I think Yeah I think
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that is one of..what..in a way it's a problem. In another way it's it's one of the that is one of..what..in a way it's a problem. In another way it's it's one of the
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great blessings of Nimbin. That they're, that it's such a tolerant community great blessings of Nimbin. That they're, that it's such a tolerant community
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and so tolerant of deviance. and so tolerant of deviance.
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But ah, there's a sense in which that was okay But ah, there's a sense in which that was okay
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when we were in a you know early twenties when we were in a you know early twenties
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and we were..as a group of people we tended to throw the baby out with the and we were..as a group of people we tended to throw the baby out with the
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bathwater. You know, we'd thrown out all the, um.. bathwater. You know, we'd thrown out all the, um..
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Customs and belief systems and values Customs and belief systems and values
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that our parents had, sort of, instilled in us. that our parents had, sort of, instilled in us.
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And were gradually re-assimilating what seemed to be important to us And were gradually re-assimilating what seemed to be important to us
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and holding onto a certain, perhaps a new set of values and holding onto a certain, perhaps a new set of values
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that we created for ourselves. We were certainly creating a whole new culture. that we created for ourselves. We were certainly creating a whole new culture.
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And, so in And, so in
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that sense, we were very open to new definitions of what was right and wrong. that sense, we were very open to new definitions of what was right and wrong.
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What was ok and not ok. And that was fine What was ok and not ok. And that was fine
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but iI think as we've grown now and we're now in our 30s, 40s and 50s, but iI think as we've grown now and we're now in our 30s, 40s and 50s,
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Most of us who were there then are in our 40s now. Most of us who were there then are in our 40s now.
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I think we've needed to ah, to set a few more limits than we've been prepared to set I think we've needed to ah, to set a few more limits than we've been prepared to set
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and er, that it's time for that now, and we haven't done quite enough of it. and er, that it's time for that now, and we haven't done quite enough of it.
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The um, The new settlers of Nimbin have sort of grown up or.. The um, The new settlers of Nimbin have sort of grown up or..
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Well I, I hope we've grown wiser. Er. We've certainly grown older and Well I, I hope we've grown wiser. Er. We've certainly grown older and
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that doesn't mean to say that doesn't mean to say
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that there isn't an extraordinary youthfulness about us all you know for being in that there isn't an extraordinary youthfulness about us all you know for being in
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our 40's and 50's. We're still ready at the drop of a hat for a rage our 40's and 50's. We're still ready at the drop of a hat for a rage
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and dance and, you know. I mean we're..we're very energetic people for, you know despite our and dance and, you know. I mean we're..we're very energetic people for, you know despite our
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Almost unbelievable age Almost unbelievable age
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and, uh, I think there's something about having spent those years and, uh, I think there's something about having spent those years
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at Nimbin that's kept us mentally very youthful at Nimbin that's kept us mentally very youthful
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and spiritually youthful. [coughs] and spiritually youthful. [coughs]
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Going back to your time in Tuntable, were the Going back to your time in Tuntable, were the
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defined roles of men and women living in that situation really any different than maybe more traditional rural communities, do you think? defined roles of men and women living in that situation really any different than maybe more traditional rural communities, do you think?
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Yeah. The roles of men Yeah. The roles of men
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and women on Tuntable in particularly in the earlier years were not and women on Tuntable in particularly in the earlier years were not
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that dissimilar from out in the rest of society in the sense that dissimilar from out in the rest of society in the sense
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that er, the women tended to get the household duties that er, the women tended to get the household duties
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and er, the men tended to be 'out there'. Doing whatever they did 'out there'. and er, the men tended to be 'out there'. Doing whatever they did 'out there'.
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and in the case of Tuntable that was largely a matter of clearing a site and in the case of Tuntable that was largely a matter of clearing a site
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and building a house. and building a house.
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And it wasn't so much divided along sexist lines per se as it was down to And it wasn't so much divided along sexist lines per se as it was down to
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whose physical energy was most appropriate to the task. And given whose physical energy was most appropriate to the task. And given
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that most of the women who were there, and there weren't many women there. that most of the women who were there, and there weren't many women there.
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There were nearly all men There were nearly all men
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and the women who were there were generally either in relationship with a guy and the women who were there were generally either in relationship with a guy
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or were single parents so babies were involved in nearly every case or were single parents so babies were involved in nearly every case
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and and
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that being the case it was more sensible for the guy to be the one who was clearing that being the case it was more sensible for the guy to be the one who was clearing
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the site and building the house the site and building the house
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and for the woman to be the one who was washing the nappies in a bucket. and for the woman to be the one who was washing the nappies in a bucket.
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You know with no washing machine or anything like that You know with no washing machine or anything like that
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and ah, keeping an eye on the kids. And that's not to say that that was rigid and ah, keeping an eye on the kids. And that's not to say that that was rigid
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but it was generally how it fell. but it was generally how it fell.
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And er, we used to have a women's group that met in Nimbin once a week and And er, we used to have a women's group that met in Nimbin once a week and
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ah, that was the one night of the week ah, that was the one night of the week
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when the guys got the kids no matter how they felt about it. when the guys got the kids no matter how they felt about it.
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And ah, there was, you know, quite a lot of uproar about that too. And ah, there was, you know, quite a lot of uproar about that too.
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And er, city feminists who visited our meeting were absolutely appalled And er, city feminists who visited our meeting were absolutely appalled
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that we, you know first of all had to fight with our guys to get them to look after that we, you know first of all had to fight with our guys to get them to look after
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the kids one night a week so we could go to a meeting but also the rest of it the kids one night a week so we could go to a meeting but also the rest of it
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that, you know, that that in their view it was it was divided that, you know, that that in their view it was it was divided
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so rigidly along sexist lines of..of occupation. so rigidly along sexist lines of..of occupation.
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But from our point of view, you know I mean more than anything we'd come here for peace But from our point of view, you know I mean more than anything we'd come here for peace
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and harmony and happiness and, that seemed to be the way that we were, you know and harmony and happiness and, that seemed to be the way that we were, you know
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that things would be most peaceful and harmonious. that things would be most peaceful and harmonious.