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This is Scott McKinnon interviewing Barry Charles on 21st of July 2022. The recording is taking place at the State Library of NSW. The interview is being recorded for the State Library of NSW Oral History Collection. And Barry, could you tell me when and where you were born? Sure. I was born in Sydney on the 30th of April 1950 and we lived in Punchbowl which is part of the Bankstown district in Southwest Sydney. This is Scott McKinnon interviewing Barry Charles on 21st of July 2022. The recording is taking place at the State Library of NSW. The interview is being recorded for the State Library of NSW Oral History Collection. And Barry, could you tell me when and where you were born? Sure. I was born in Sydney on the 30th of April 1950 and we lived in Punchbowl which is part of the Bankstown district in Southwest Sydney.
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And I grew up my first 20 odd years there. And when I first when we first moved in, we were just living in a 2 room garage and my my father and my paternal grandfather built the house themselves and we moved in about three years later. OK, and tell me a little bit about your parents. My mother was a Weaver and. And I grew up my first 20 odd years there. And when I first when we first moved in, we were just living in a 2 room garage and my my father and my paternal grandfather built the house themselves and we moved in about three years later. OK, and tell me a little bit about your parents. My mother was a Weaver and.
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She worked for a towel factory making towels. She worked for a towel factory making towels.
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And my father was a loom mechanic at that stage. Ah he um And my father was a loom mechanic at that stage. Ah he um
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obviously wanted to improve his life and and look after his future children. So he got he got himself a job as a traveling salesman with a knitwear company. obviously wanted to improve his life and and look after his future children. So he got he got himself a job as a traveling salesman with a knitwear company.
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Um and what was Punchbowl like as a place to? Punchbowl was still largely developing. There were a lot of houses that were being built in about the 1930s, but the new estates were opening up or new areas were opening up where people could buy a block of land and and extend the suburb. And up on the hill above Punchbowl itself, there's a suburb called Mount Lewis. And that was a huge, major development of that time, which. Um and what was Punchbowl like as a place to? Punchbowl was still largely developing. There were a lot of houses that were being built in about the 1930s, but the new estates were opening up or new areas were opening up where people could buy a block of land and and extend the suburb. And up on the hill above Punchbowl itself, there's a suburb called Mount Lewis. And that was a huge, major development of that time, which.
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Was, ah, was the base of a famous Australian book called They're a Weird Mob, and that's set in, in, in the construction industry at, at that time in, in, in the Punchbowl area. So do you remember a lot of development happening around you? Yes, until I was about eight or nine, there were still vacant lots behind our house, only a couple, but they, they, they remain vacant for about eight or nine years. Was, ah, was the base of a famous Australian book called They're a Weird Mob, and that's set in, in, in the construction industry at, at that time in, in, in the Punchbowl area. So do you remember a lot of development happening around you? Yes, until I was about eight or nine, there were still vacant lots behind our house, only a couple, but they, they, they remain vacant for about eight or nine years.
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And then finally houses filmed in there as well. Yeah. And fairly working class? Very working class, very working class. Very. And then finally houses filmed in there as well. Yeah. And fairly working class? Very working class, very working class. Very.
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Mono racial at that time of course very Anglo Celtic. Mono racial at that time of course very Anglo Celtic.
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And but there were migrant families coming in post war, migrant families of course, and they were mainly Italians at that stage. And but there were migrant families coming in post war, migrant families of course, and they were mainly Italians at that stage.
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And did you have any siblings? I had a younger sister. She was born four years after me. And so how old were you when your dad started work as a travelling salesman? Oh, I'm not quite sure. And did you have any siblings? I had a younger sister. She was born four years after me. And so how old were you when your dad started work as a travelling salesman? Oh, I'm not quite sure.
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I may have still been a baby at that stage. I may have still been a baby at that stage.
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Certainly when I was old enough to start to remember things, he was doing that job. But I didn't have my father for very long in my life. He passed away. Certainly when I was old enough to start to remember things, he was doing that job. But I didn't have my father for very long in my life. He passed away.
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On my when I was 5 and it was my father and mother's 7th wedding anniversary the night he died. How did he die? He had kidney disease and there wasn't a very great deal they could do about it in those days now. On my when I was 5 and it was my father and mother's 7th wedding anniversary the night he died. How did he die? He had kidney disease and there wasn't a very great deal they could do about it in those days now.
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Now there are treatments for what he had, but they they've been invented but they weren't available in Australia. Imagine that must have been difficult for your mum suddenly being a single mum at that time. Absolutely. I mean, the baby Cheryl, my sister was only just not quite 18 months. Now there are treatments for what he had, but they they've been invented but they weren't available in Australia. Imagine that must have been difficult for your mum suddenly being a single mum at that time. Absolutely. I mean, the baby Cheryl, my sister was only just not quite 18 months.
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And I was 5 and my father died without a will. So there are all very, very many complications. In those days they had a house loan which my mother couldn't. And I was 5 and my father died without a will. So there are all very, very many complications. In those days they had a house loan which my mother couldn't.
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hold in her own name and she had to get a male guarantee - guarantor for that is some of the issues in those days. And there was no way he could survive on a widow's pension either and pay a mortgage. hold in her own name and she had to get a male guarantee - guarantor for that is some of the issues in those days. And there was no way he could survive on a widow's pension either and pay a mortgage.
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So she went back to work and we were cared for by the neighbours. Okay, so within a fairly close knit community? Yes, you call your your neighbours who were not not related to it at all, but were called Auntie Ethel and U Bob and all that sort of stuff. So she went back to work and we were cared for by the neighbours. Okay, so within a fairly close knit community? Yes, you call your your neighbours who were not not related to it at all, but were called Auntie Ethel and U Bob and all that sort of stuff.
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Yes. Do you remember it as a happy childhood? Yes, yes. You know, we, we were kind of shielded from any kind of drama or anything. We were very well protected. And I and yes, I, I just about have constantly happy, happy remembrance of all of that. Yeah. What about. And then my mother remarried. Yes. Do you remember it as a happy childhood? Yes, yes. You know, we, we were kind of shielded from any kind of drama or anything. We were very well protected. And I and yes, I, I just about have constantly happy, happy remembrance of all of that. Yeah. What about. And then my mother remarried.
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In 1959. So I was 8 when she remarried. Who was your stepfather? My stepfather was her. In 1959. So I was 8 when she remarried. Who was your stepfather? My stepfather was her.
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The the foreman in the factory where she worked as a process worker in a factory in also in Punchbowl. Did you have a good relationship with him? I couldn't say that we really did. He was a very, very quiet man. The the foreman in the factory where she worked as a process worker in a factory in also in Punchbowl. Did you have a good relationship with him? I couldn't say that we really did. He was a very, very quiet man.
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He suffered a poor education and left school at a very early age to work work during the war in the aircraft factory. He suffered a poor education and left school at a very early age to work work during the war in the aircraft factory.
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He. He.
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later realised that that. later realised that that.
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The issue was that he had dyslexia and and so he had very poor reading and writing skills. The issue was that he had dyslexia and and so he had very poor reading and writing skills.
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And and we just never seem to be able to communicate on a very much of a one to one basis. He was also a an ex footballer, rugby league player. And I was always totally far from sporty or or anything. You'd much more likely find me in one of these books, my nose in one of these books. So you're schooling or you did you go to a like local primary school? Local primary school, which was Punchbowl Primary on Canterbury Rd. at Punchbowl had been built in about 1926. So it was one of the classic. And and we just never seem to be able to communicate on a very much of a one to one basis. He was also a an ex footballer, rugby league player. And I was always totally far from sporty or or anything. You'd much more likely find me in one of these books, my nose in one of these books. So you're schooling or you did you go to a like local primary school? Local primary school, which was Punchbowl Primary on Canterbury Rd. at Punchbowl had been built in about 1926. So it was one of the classic.
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Lane government schools. Lane government schools.
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And it's the building still stands today, which is, but it's vastly expanded in into around itself over over the years. And then I went on to Punchbowl Boys High School, which was built in 1956 to cater for all the. And it's the building still stands today, which is, but it's vastly expanded in into around itself over over the years. And then I went on to Punchbowl Boys High School, which was built in 1956 to cater for all the.
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increase in the population post war who are now reaching high school age. increase in the population post war who are now reaching high school age.
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And did you enjoy school? Yes, I'd say I really did. I didn't. I never came top of the class, but I was always around about the top of it. And did you enjoy school? Yes, I'd say I really did. I didn't. I never came top of the class, but I was always around about the top of it.
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I I never got myself into too much trouble. I think the only time I ever got the cane was when I didn't do a piece of homework that I was supposed to do. Taken out for one stroke. Yeah. The school itself had a bad reputation when I went there. I I never got myself into too much trouble. I think the only time I ever got the cane was when I didn't do a piece of homework that I was supposed to do. Taken out for one stroke. Yeah. The school itself had a bad reputation when I went there.
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Because it had a lot of very poor students from very poor backgrounds. There was a public housing estate in Riverwood, what is now Riverwood was called ?Herne? Bay. And that was in the, the locale of the school. And those boys came from troubled families and people who were unemployed and what have you. And so the school had a reputation of, of, of employing schoolmasters who were real strict discipline, discipline. Because it had a lot of very poor students from very poor backgrounds. There was a public housing estate in Riverwood, what is now Riverwood was called ?Herne? Bay. And that was in the, the locale of the school. And those boys came from troubled families and people who were unemployed and what have you. And so the school had a reputation of, of, of employing schoolmasters who were real strict discipline, discipline.
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Disciplinarians, but I I managed to avoid most of that drama was of the goody two shoes you should probably. Disciplinarians, but I I managed to avoid most of that drama was of the goody two shoes you should probably.
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And a bookish kind of child. Did you have a close relationship with your mother through your? I'd say so, yeah. I was the little man of the house for for years between 5 and 8. And I was what became known as a latch ?doy? at a latch-key child because I had to let myself home in at in the afternoon. And a bookish kind of child. Did you have a close relationship with your mother through your? I'd say so, yeah. I was the little man of the house for for years between 5 and 8. And I was what became known as a latch ?doy? at a latch-key child because I had to let myself home in at in the afternoon.
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And then wait for my mum to come home, which could be as late as five or six. And then for my little sister to be brought up from the neighbours. And so it was, yeah. It was that kind of life. Yeah. Did that make you feel independent, Were you? Well, yes, yes and no. My mom was very, very protective and very, very. And then wait for my mum to come home, which could be as late as five or six. And then for my little sister to be brought up from the neighbours. And so it was, yeah. It was that kind of life. Yeah. Did that make you feel independent, Were you? Well, yes, yes and no. My mom was very, very protective and very, very.
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What's the word ?closeting? a bit? I was I was very highly protected and I look back on my school photos just recently I was doing it and. What's the word ?closeting? a bit? I was I was very highly protected and I look back on my school photos just recently I was doing it and.
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And I really was a little bit immature in in most ways at 5 and 6, which probably was the reason why I repeated second class at school. But the other reason was that I was also a sickly child. I had bronchitis a lot during that. Yeah. And I really was a little bit immature in in most ways at 5 and 6, which probably was the reason why I repeated second class at school. But the other reason was that I was also a sickly child. I had bronchitis a lot during that. Yeah.
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And your relationship with your sister, were you close to her? Oh, like all siblings. And we used to fight like cats and dogs and, and, and I'm sure we were sent a total frustration to my mother in particular. And your relationship with your sister, were you close to her? Oh, like all siblings. And we used to fight like cats and dogs and, and, and I'm sure we were sent a total frustration to my mother in particular.
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Umm the about constantly bickering with with my my sister, but we now have a very, very close bond. I'm very very proud of her and and and we we we we have something special that's lasted and you know, I'm 72 now she's 68 and we've got we get on fabulously. Yeah great. Was it high school and all boys school or yeah we. Umm the about constantly bickering with with my my sister, but we now have a very, very close bond. I'm very very proud of her and and and we we we we have something special that's lasted and you know, I'm 72 now she's 68 and we've got we get on fabulously. Yeah great. Was it high school and all boys school or yeah we.
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How was that? How was that?
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It suited me because I, I don't know, perhaps like, because I didn't like my sister when I was a child. No, no, it's not. I, I didn't like girls. I wasn't interested in girls at all. And, and I, I was interested in boys. I, I, I had an attraction to boys from about the age of 1110, you know. It suited me because I, I don't know, perhaps like, because I didn't like my sister when I was a child. No, no, it's not. I, I didn't like girls. I wasn't interested in girls at all. And, and I, I was interested in boys. I, I, I had an attraction to boys from about the age of 1110, you know.
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I just wanted to be with them. We conscious at the time of that being. I just wanted to be with them. We conscious at the time of that being.
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Something different from. Something different from.
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Other boys? No, not, not really. Other boys? No, not, not really.
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I you know. I you know.
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You got to understand about the the sort of society at that time there was. You got to understand about the the sort of society at that time there was.
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A. A.
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There weren't a lot of What's the word? There weren't a lot of What's the word?
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I. I.
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Taboos or whatever because you really weren't aware, you just thought what was was you didn't have anything to criticise or or or so on you that you just got on in in your community and. Taboos or whatever because you really weren't aware, you just thought what was was you didn't have anything to criticise or or or so on you that you just got on in in your community and.
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So it didn't become a sort of conscious issue until I was about 14 or something like that. And then back in those days used to have the. So it didn't become a sort of conscious issue until I was about 14 or something like that. And then back in those days used to have the.
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The sex education talk and at 14 that's a bit late as far as I'm concerned, but and it was the father and son movement who used to come to the schools and and give you the lecture and show you the pictures and the diagram. The sex education talk and at 14 that's a bit late as far as I'm concerned, but and it was the father and son movement who used to come to the schools and and give you the lecture and show you the pictures and the diagram.
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That and, and I remember and they gave you a little booklet and then you were supposed to go away and talk to your parents about it. And I really couldn't talk to them about anything like that. But I, there was one page of the book that kept, I kept returning to and this is it, as I said, about 14. That and, and I remember and they gave you a little booklet and then you were supposed to go away and talk to your parents about it. And I really couldn't talk to them about anything like that. But I, there was one page of the book that kept, I kept returning to and this is it, as I said, about 14.
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And that was the passage that said, as you go through puberty, you will you may be attracted to another boy. And that was the passage that said, as you go through puberty, you will you may be attracted to another boy.
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And but this is nothing to worry about because as you get older you will realize that that's not appropriate and and you and you will, you'll move on to a normal life. And but this is nothing to worry about because as you get older you will realize that that's not appropriate and and you and you will, you'll move on to a normal life.
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And I thought about that and I thought about that and I thought about that and, and, and I thought, I don't know, and, and after sort of a couple of very weird attempts to, to sort of refocus my sexual fantasies when I was ************ or something. And I thought about that and I thought about that and I thought about that and, and, and I thought, I don't know, and, and after sort of a couple of very weird attempts to, to sort of refocus my sexual fantasies when I was ************ or something.
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At about, as I say, still 14 or 15, I simply said no, this is not going to work. This, this is not, you know. At about, as I say, still 14 or 15, I simply said no, this is not going to work. This, this is not, you know.
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I might as well just get used to, used to what I like, and that's what I get. Wow, that's now. There wasn't anything to identify. As I said, there was no gay community that we knew of. There was nothing. There was no role models. I might as well just get used to, used to what I like, and that's what I get. Wow, that's now. There wasn't anything to identify. As I said, there was no gay community that we knew of. There was nothing. There was no role models.
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You know, no other adult, you know, openly gay people or anything like that was nothing like that was all just in my mind and in my stock, you know, psychology and. You know, no other adult, you know, openly gay people or anything like that was nothing like that was all just in my mind and in my stock, you know, psychology and.
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And I was. And I was.
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Playing around with another one boy in particular at school and and then he left at year 10 when I was 16. And but it didn't change my thoughts. And I just and I just became confident that somewhat someday it would be all work out. I knew I had to keep it a secret for the time being, but I just had a feeling that it would always, it would work out one day. And sure enough, two years later it did. Playing around with another one boy in particular at school and and then he left at year 10 when I was 16. And but it didn't change my thoughts. And I just and I just became confident that somewhat someday it would be all work out. I knew I had to keep it a secret for the time being, but I just had a feeling that it would always, it would work out one day. And sure enough, two years later it did.
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Yeah, that's a really. Were you upset about it or at all or? No, I don't know. You know, you hear so many stories about people who struggle with. Yeah, that's a really. Were you upset about it or at all or? No, I don't know. You know, you hear so many stories about people who struggle with.
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Religious scruples and, and, and guilt and anxiety and so on. And I can honestly say that I can't remember ever feeling like that. As I said, I knew you had to keep it a secret, but it, it was not a guilty secret. I didn't, I didn't feel any shame. I didn't feel any guilt about it. Religious scruples and, and, and guilt and anxiety and so on. And I can honestly say that I can't remember ever feeling like that. As I said, I knew you had to keep it a secret, but it, it was not a guilty secret. I didn't, I didn't feel any shame. I didn't feel any guilt about it.
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I just knew that it wouldn't be approved of by those people. I just knew that it wouldn't be approved of by those people.
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Was your family religious? I don't know. I mean, you know. Was your family religious? I don't know. I mean, you know.
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C of a Church of England in the in the non practicing kind there sort of they sent us to Sunday school when we were children. But after that there was no pressure and and we didn't we didn't we didn't go marching off to church on Sundays or anything like that. Do you think that made a difference to how you I think it did? I think I think it it you formed your own moral. C of a Church of England in the in the non practicing kind there sort of they sent us to Sunday school when we were children. But after that there was no pressure and and we didn't we didn't we didn't go marching off to church on Sundays or anything like that. Do you think that made a difference to how you I think it did? I think I think it it you formed your own moral.
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Stances and and and without, yeah, without pressure and so yeah, what about did you feel pressure to? Stances and and and without, yeah, without pressure and so yeah, what about did you feel pressure to?
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Behave like a particular type of boy. You were only the pressure to to be good at sports or something like that. Punch Bar was a bit renowned for its sporting achievements and had a top rugby team, rugby union and and A and a top cricket team and these sorts of things. Behave like a particular type of boy. You were only the pressure to to be good at sports or something like that. Punch Bar was a bit renowned for its sporting achievements and had a top rugby team, rugby union and and A and a top cricket team and these sorts of things.
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And you had to compete in the school sports carnival and run the, the marathon and all this. And I, you know, you could always guarantee that I was last. But but other than that, I didn't cop any bullet bullying, bullying or anything like that. I was also lucky in that respect, in that I wasn't, I was just quiet and bookish and not flamboyant or, or, or showy or. And you had to compete in the school sports carnival and run the, the marathon and all this. And I, you know, you could always guarantee that I was last. But but other than that, I didn't cop any bullet bullying, bullying or anything like that. I was also lucky in that respect, in that I wasn't, I was just quiet and bookish and not flamboyant or, or, or showy or.
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It's interesting. It's interesting.
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Umm, you know, things that just come back into your mind. Umm, you know, things that just come back into your mind.
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I. I.
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I was a bit theatrical but only really at home and we used my sister and I used to do little shows for the for the grandparents at times and now looking back on it. I was a bit theatrical but only really at home and we used my sister and I used to do little shows for the for the grandparents at times and now looking back on it.
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There were two. There was a car. There was a television show, comedy show in which it was a sketch in which a man was done up in drag, but he was a dowdy housewife. There were two. There was a car. There was a television show, comedy show in which it was a sketch in which a man was done up in drag, but he was a dowdy housewife.
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Who never spoke. And the other woman who was a female, she actually did all the dialogue. And my sister and I at what we're talking about 14 and and 10 used to perform that routine for our grandparents. And when you go back and think about it, you think. And that had some implications later on in my life when I finally did come out. And what was the reaction of your grandparents at the time? At the time, you know, that that they just thought it was funny, you know, and it was, it was just funny with that. We just thought we were being funny. Who never spoke. And the other woman who was a female, she actually did all the dialogue. And my sister and I at what we're talking about 14 and and 10 used to perform that routine for our grandparents. And when you go back and think about it, you think. And that had some implications later on in my life when I finally did come out. And what was the reaction of your grandparents at the time? At the time, you know, that that they just thought it was funny, you know, and it was, it was just funny with that. We just thought we were being funny.
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But, umm, but it's interesting that that I was cast in that role, though. That was interesting. Yeah. You mentioned a minute ago, about two years later at 18, sort of things worked out. Yeah, I left school at at 18 and. But, umm, but it's interesting that that I was cast in that role, though. That was interesting. Yeah. You mentioned a minute ago, about two years later at 18, sort of things worked out. Yeah, I left school at at 18 and.
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And pretty much for the first time was out, in, out, out in the world on my own. As I said, I had a pretty protected closeted family life. And I, I didn't go out much as a, as an early teenager in that, but I, I went to work with a firm of Chartered Accountants in the end of 1968. And pretty much for the first time was out, in, out, out in the world on my own. As I said, I had a pretty protected closeted family life. And I, I didn't go out much as a, as an early teenager in that, but I, I went to work with a firm of Chartered Accountants in the end of 1968.
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And. And.
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I worked as an auditor, so I was a, you know, apprentice auditor, auditor. I worked as an auditor, so I was a, you know, apprentice auditor, auditor.
19:01

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And we used to visit the clients premises to look at the books and what have you. And in January of that year we had a client who had offices in what had been, excuse me, an old department store called Anthony Horden's, a very famous department store in Sydney. And it had closed and they rented out the offices to a whole group of other. And we used to visit the clients premises to look at the books and what have you. And in January of that year we had a client who had offices in what had been, excuse me, an old department store called Anthony Horden's, a very famous department store in Sydney. And it had closed and they rented out the offices to a whole group of other.
19:27

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Organizations. So I was there working in a lunch hour. I went to the toilets which were in that building and they were the old marble, really solid marble wall toilets with the oak panelling and the whole bit. And I went in there and I saw the most amazing piece of graffiti I'd ever seen in, well, I've ever seen ever since as well, because it was carved into the marble. And whoever had done it, it was a brilliant artist. Organizations. So I was there working in a lunch hour. I went to the toilets which were in that building and they were the old marble, really solid marble wall toilets with the oak panelling and the whole bit. And I went in there and I saw the most amazing piece of graffiti I'd ever seen in, well, I've ever seen ever since as well, because it was carved into the marble. And whoever had done it, it was a brilliant artist.
19:59

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And it depicted about five or six men in an **** doing everything possible to each other. And it depicted about five or six men in an **** doing everything possible to each other.
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And I thought I'm in the right place. And I thought I'm in the right place.
20:14

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And sure enough, shortly after that, I met met a guy there and picked him up up and, and, and had, you know, a bit of sexual contact for the first time in cutting over two years. But yeah, and from there, you know, it was just, you know, finding other similar places, which is what we had to do in those days. And sure enough, shortly after that, I met met a guy there and picked him up up and, and, and had, you know, a bit of sexual contact for the first time in cutting over two years. But yeah, and from there, you know, it was just, you know, finding other similar places, which is what we had to do in those days.
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With the carving on the wall have been your first exposure to *********** is that the almost. With the carving on the wall have been your first exposure to *********** is that the almost.
20:44

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One of the kids at school had an older brother or a member, and he came to school with some stuff that belonged to his older brother. But that was heterosexual ****. This was the first time I'd seen gay **** I think. Yeah, Yeah. And I guess this is a realization that, yeah, there are plenty of other people out there. Absolutely. And I kind of knew for another reason. When I was 17, I was watching television at home. One of the kids at school had an older brother or a member, and he came to school with some stuff that belonged to his older brother. But that was heterosexual ****. This was the first time I'd seen gay **** I think. Yeah, Yeah. And I guess this is a realization that, yeah, there are plenty of other people out there. Absolutely. And I kind of knew for another reason. When I was 17, I was watching television at home.
21:14

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And the movie that came on was a political movie called Advise and Consent. It was produced in 1961 in America and had a very top cast of Hollywood stars. And it was basically a political movie about the appointment of the Secretary of State. And the movie that came on was a political movie called Advise and Consent. It was produced in 1961 in America and had a very top cast of Hollywood stars. And it was basically a political movie about the appointment of the Secretary of State.
21:35

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But in the course of the of the movie. But in the course of the of the movie.
21:39

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There was pressure put on various senators to vote against the candidate and one of them was being blackmailed. And the reason for the blackmail was that he'd been a serviceman during the sailor during the Second World War and he had homosexual relationship. Now, of course, this was very salaciously depicted almost you would have had to know what they were talking about, you know, before they you actually saw it, before you miss it. There was pressure put on various senators to vote against the candidate and one of them was being blackmailed. And the reason for the blackmail was that he'd been a serviceman during the sailor during the Second World War and he had homosexual relationship. Now, of course, this was very salaciously depicted almost you would have had to know what they were talking about, you know, before they you actually saw it, before you miss it.
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But at 17, I kind of I worked it out pretty quickly because. But at 17, I kind of I worked it out pretty quickly because.
22:17

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Uh, the blackmailer is his former love or the, the, the blackmailers are the other senators, but they, they, they use the former lover to come and, and, and make contact with, with the senator and he, and so he agrees to go and he goes to a gay bar. And this is a say of 17. I've never heard of such a thing, but I saw this scene with all these men in this bar and. Uh, the blackmailer is his former love or the, the, the blackmailers are the other senators, but they, they, they use the former lover to come and, and, and make contact with, with the senator and he, and so he agrees to go and he goes to a gay bar. And this is a say of 17. I've never heard of such a thing, but I saw this scene with all these men in this bar and.
22:47

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A little tiny bit of flamboyant behavior. And so you know when when it came the time I knew they must must be out there. Maybe it's in America, but but I know it's out there somewhere. Interesting. Yeah. And yeah, as I remember that movie, he's quite a handsome guy as well. Yes, it was a he was a very top leading man at the time and he'd been his previous big starring role was against Marilyn Monroe so he he had a very. A little tiny bit of flamboyant behavior. And so you know when when it came the time I knew they must must be out there. Maybe it's in America, but but I know it's out there somewhere. Interesting. Yeah. And yeah, as I remember that movie, he's quite a handsome guy as well. Yes, it was a he was a very top leading man at the time and he'd been his previous big starring role was against Marilyn Monroe so he he had a very.
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Put on the line by playing that part. Yeah. And so after the the bathroom at the the department store, you mentioned finding other similar places. How did you, how did you search them out? After that? You'd meet somebody and they'd tell you, oh, you know, you should go here or you should go there. Put on the line by playing that part. Yeah. And so after the the bathroom at the the department store, you mentioned finding other similar places. How did you, how did you search them out? After that? You'd meet somebody and they'd tell you, oh, you know, you should go here or you should go there.
23:40

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Umm, or the piece of another piece of graffiti would announce another location. So yeah. And I didn't discover the local bar scene. And for another, or I'd say another 18 months at least. Probably 1971. Really. Was it always sex there or did you go to people's houses? Oh, hard to remember. Umm, or the piece of another piece of graffiti would announce another location. So yeah. And I didn't discover the local bar scene. And for another, or I'd say another 18 months at least. Probably 1971. Really. Was it always sex there or did you go to people's houses? Oh, hard to remember.
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Um, pretty much on the spot in in the park, you know, in the toilet. Yeah, pretty much all through 69 and 70. And then in 70, think things really started to change. Um, pretty much on the spot in in the park, you know, in the toilet. Yeah, pretty much all through 69 and 70. And then in 70, think things really started to change.
24:32

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And that's when I saw that there was a movement for for changing the laws for about homosexuality. And that's when I saw that there was a movement for for changing the laws for about homosexuality.
24:42

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And making it legal and that people were campaigning to do that and, and in the meantime, I've done a lot of research. I, I told you I was, I'd have my nose in a book all the time. I was studying accountancy at the, at the University of NSW and working full time and studying part time. And I'd go, but I'd go to the library and I'd end up in the psychology department and, and looking at text about. And making it legal and that people were campaigning to do that and, and in the meantime, I've done a lot of research. I, I told you I was, I'd have my nose in a book all the time. I was studying accountancy at the, at the University of NSW and working full time and studying part time. And I'd go, but I'd go to the library and I'd end up in the psychology department and, and looking at text about.
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About homosexuality. About homosexuality.
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And, and, and legal texts about the law, how the law worked and so on. And, and so, you know, by then I had a really firm understanding of how I, not just how I felt, but how I fitted into the rest of the the world and society is in general, which at that stage was not very good. Yeah. Before you got into the activist movement, did you have any trouble with police at the pits? And, and, and legal texts about the law, how the law worked and so on. And, and so, you know, by then I had a really firm understanding of how I, not just how I felt, but how I fitted into the rest of the the world and society is in general, which at that stage was not very good. Yeah. Before you got into the activist movement, did you have any trouble with police at the pits?
25:44

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Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
25:47

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Yeah, I can't remember anything before 1971, but yeah. Yeah, I can't remember anything before 1971, but yeah.
25:56

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I can't precisely remember, but there must have been occasions when I was in in the station toilets or whatever and, and somebody and police came in and said what are you guys doing in here and all that sort of stuff? Yeah. So, yeah, but I, I'm afraid that's a bit vague. I can't precisely remember, but there must have been occasions when I was in in the station toilets or whatever and, and somebody and police came in and said what are you guys doing in here and all that sort of stuff? Yeah. So, yeah, but I, I'm afraid that's a bit vague.
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And if you're reading the psychology books, they weren't necessarily. And if you're reading the psychology books, they weren't necessarily.
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Supportive Oh heavens no. The time I I tell an anecdote and I don't know whether people actually believe this, but that I could remember this so precisely, but I remember reading a book from some eminent psychiatrist in in America and he said homosexuals sex is fundamentally dysfunctional because there's such a limited amount of things that two men can do with due to each other. Supportive Oh heavens no. The time I I tell an anecdote and I don't know whether people actually believe this, but that I could remember this so precisely, but I remember reading a book from some eminent psychiatrist in in America and he said homosexuals sex is fundamentally dysfunctional because there's such a limited amount of things that two men can do with due to each other.
26:53

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And I kind of just put the book down and put it back and just laugh myself silly. I just thought, you know, that even at that age, you know, 21 or whatever, very relatively limited experience, I, I knew that that just wasn't right. That just was fundamentally not correct. And I kind of just put the book down and put it back and just laugh myself silly. I just thought, you know, that even at that age, you know, 21 or whatever, very relatively limited experience, I, I knew that that just wasn't right. That just was fundamentally not correct.
27:16

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So, so you didn't take any of this on board? No, I took it on board as far as research and. So, so you didn't take any of this on board? No, I took it on board as far as research and.
27:23

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And when I started to become political active, I, I put that into a, a very large essay of about 2 1/2 to 3000 words supposed to be writing my economics paper, but I did that, that one instead. And yeah, because I knew that when I did finally come out to my family, which I had hadn't done, of course. And when I started to become political active, I, I put that into a, a very large essay of about 2 1/2 to 3000 words supposed to be writing my economics paper, but I did that, that one instead. And yeah, because I knew that when I did finally come out to my family, which I had hadn't done, of course.
27:46

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That that I wanted to be armed with all the information and all the arguments and so on that that that they would come up with and. That that I wanted to be armed with all the information and all the arguments and so on that that that they would come up with and.
27:55

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So it proved. And had you made friends through the beats? Other gay friends? No, it wasn't a way to make friends. So it proved. And had you made friends through the beats? Other gay friends? No, it wasn't a way to make friends.
28:06

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It could it, well, it was, but I was still a little bit shy and a little bit introspective. And so I I didn't, I couldn't say that that didn't that happened until the beginning of 1971 when I started getting politically involved. OK, so tell me about that how you started to become. It could it, well, it was, but I was still a little bit shy and a little bit introspective. And so I I didn't, I couldn't say that that didn't that happened until the beginning of 1971 when I started getting politically involved. OK, so tell me about that how you started to become.
28:26

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Involved in Right. Well, it was September or October of 1970 when I opened The Australian newspaper and there was the big. Involved in Right. Well, it was September or October of 1970 when I opened The Australian newspaper and there was the big.
28:38

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Weekend Australian piece on on the formation of camp so John Ware and Christabel polls. Pictures were in the paper. Weekend Australian piece on on the formation of camp so John Ware and Christabel polls. Pictures were in the paper.
28:47

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As and saying that their academic is from Sydney University and they were forming this organization called Campaign Against Moral Persecution. As and saying that their academic is from Sydney University and they were forming this organization called Campaign Against Moral Persecution.
28:57

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And their object was to change the laws and influence the politicians, to change the laws and to improve the conditions for homosexual people, Gays and lesbian, sorry, homosexuals and lesbians. The word gay. And their object was to change the laws and influence the politicians, to change the laws and to improve the conditions for homosexual people, Gays and lesbian, sorry, homosexuals and lesbians. The word gay.
29:13

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Wasn't in the vocabulary at that stage. And that article sparked an interest in me. I, I was great. This is, you know, when this happens, I want to be part of that. Wasn't in the vocabulary at that stage. And that article sparked an interest in me. I, I was great. This is, you know, when this happens, I want to be part of that.
29:28

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And so when they had their first meetings in the beginning of 1971, I didn't go to the first one, but I went to the second one. And that involved leaving work at 5:00 at night in the accountants office and, and having a meal in, in the city and getting a bus out out to Balmain, to Darling St. Balmain and, and going to the meeting, which would last 2-3 hours sometimes depending on on what. And so when they had their first meetings in the beginning of 1971, I didn't go to the first one, but I went to the second one. And that involved leaving work at 5:00 at night in the accountants office and, and having a meal in, in the city and getting a bus out out to Balmain, to Darling St. Balmain and, and going to the meeting, which would last 2-3 hours sometimes depending on on what.
29:59

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The arguments were going on which. The arguments were going on which.
30:02

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It began to be quite. It began to be quite.
30:05

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An active group of argument, but anyway, and then getting the bus back into the city and getting the train home to punch bowl because I was still living with my parents and saying yes, we had I had I went to the library after the lecture because I needed to study something. And so lots of excuses, lots of lies during that. Yeah. Do you remember walking into your first meeting? I don't. I don't precisely remember the the first camp meeting. An active group of argument, but anyway, and then getting the bus back into the city and getting the train home to punch bowl because I was still living with my parents and saying yes, we had I had I went to the library after the lecture because I needed to study something. And so lots of excuses, lots of lies during that. Yeah. Do you remember walking into your first meeting? I don't. I don't precisely remember the the first camp meeting.
30:35

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But at that same time I opened the Thoranca newspaper, which was the student union newspaper at the University of NSW, and there were little classifieds and one of them said there's going to be a meeting in the Roundhouse Room 3 or whatever it was on Thursday night. But at that same time I opened the Thoranca newspaper, which was the student union newspaper at the University of NSW, and there were little classifieds and one of them said there's going to be a meeting in the Roundhouse Room 3 or whatever it was on Thursday night.
30:59

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To form a university branch of camp, and we're going to call it campus. To form a university branch of camp, and we're going to call it campus.
31:05

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Camp and Bank, that was it. That was my, that was where I was going to be on that Thursday night. And I walked in and there were two young men there. There was a guy called Terry McCafferty, another one called Phillip Ryan. And I was the third person to work and walk into the room and and start that group of the university group. And from that, that one time on, I was actively involved on campus. Camp and Bank, that was it. That was my, that was where I was going to be on that Thursday night. And I walked in and there were two young men there. There was a guy called Terry McCafferty, another one called Phillip Ryan. And I was the third person to work and walk into the room and and start that group of the university group. And from that, that one time on, I was actively involved on campus.
31:34

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With only the various things that we organized during that year and we got more and more people as the year went, went on. With only the various things that we organized during that year and we got more and more people as the year went, went on.
31:43

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How much in your joining of these groups, how much of it was political and how much of it was looking for a community or looking for friendship? It was certainly looking for community and, but, and although and friendships. I formed friendships in that. But those of whom are still alive are still my friends to this day. How much in your joining of these groups, how much of it was political and how much of it was looking for a community or looking for friendship? It was certainly looking for community and, but, and although and friendships. I formed friendships in that. But those of whom are still alive are still my friends to this day.
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And, and you got additional information about places to go and, and, and that's how I discovered what the, what the bar scene was. And, and there wasn't very much, but what there was was, you know, quite a revelation and quite, quite something, you know, that you really, I got heavily, heavily into and that's how I actually met people. And, and you got additional information about places to go and, and, and that's how I discovered what the, what the bar scene was. And, and there wasn't very much, but what there was was, you know, quite a revelation and quite, quite something, you know, that you really, I got heavily, heavily into and that's how I actually met people.
32:38

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The election became sexual partners and what have you was not directly through the through the political, but by the connections that that and the information that people gave you. The election became sexual partners and what have you was not directly through the through the political, but by the connections that that and the information that people gave you.
32:51

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Before we talk more about that, I'm just wondering about the. Before we talk more about that, I'm just wondering about the.
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What it was like going to uni at all as a working class boy from Punch Bowl? You didn't come from a uni background. What was that experience like? OK, well I was very lucky. What it was like going to uni at all as a working class boy from Punch Bowl? You didn't come from a uni background. What was that experience like? OK, well I was very lucky.
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I, my parents, my mother had stopped working when she when she remarried my stepfather. So we were on one income, but my dad was a foreman in, in the electroplating factory. So my, my, when I used dad, that's my stepfather and he. I, my parents, my mother had stopped working when she when she remarried my stepfather. So we were on one income, but my dad was a foreman in, in the electroplating factory. So my, my, when I used dad, that's my stepfather and he.
33:27

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So he provided very well for us and and he agreed that we both have both my sister and I should have good educations I. So he provided very well for us and and he agreed that we both have both my sister and I should have good educations I.
33:39

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Was academically pretty, pretty good. Not, not, not the ducks at the school, but I, you know, I was pretty good, but money was tight and, and it looked like I would leave school at 16 and go into a bank or something like that and. Was academically pretty, pretty good. Not, not, not the ducks at the school, but I, you know, I was pretty good, but money was tight and, and it looked like I would leave school at 16 and go into a bank or something like that and.
34:01

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But I got a Commonwealth scholarship, so we're talking 1966 when the Minister for Education was John Gorton, who went on to be Prime Minister. But I got a Commonwealth scholarship, so we're talking 1966 when the Minister for Education was John Gorton, who went on to be Prime Minister.
34:12

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And, and I don't know how many Commonwealth scholarships they issued, but we all got personal letters signed by John Gordon to say, you know, that we, we. And, and I don't know how many Commonwealth scholarships they issued, but we all got personal letters signed by John Gordon to say, you know, that we, we.
34:23

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Been granted enough money to pay for books and to pay for school supplies and so on to help get you through the final two years. So I could go on to year 12 and and so that was the foundation of that and I was certainly the first person. Been granted enough money to pay for books and to pay for school supplies and so on to help get you through the final two years. So I could go on to year 12 and and so that was the foundation of that and I was certainly the first person.
34:42

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Anywhere in in my entire. Anywhere in in my entire.
34:46

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Extended family on all sides that ever got the chance to go to university. Unfortunately I kind of squandered it, but that's another story. Extended family on all sides that ever got the chance to go to university. Unfortunately I kind of squandered it, but that's another story.
34:59

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With your family political at all? We do. No, but they were traditional Labour voters. But that was just tribal, you know, they, they just did it because their father did it. Children and whatever, you know, they would, they were not politically involved or anything. I was, however, I had a clean interest in politics. With your family political at all? We do. No, but they were traditional Labour voters. But that was just tribal, you know, they, they just did it because their father did it. Children and whatever, you know, they would, they were not politically involved or anything. I was, however, I had a clean interest in politics.
35:20

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From the age of 13 and, and so I formed my own opinions regardless of what and I came to my own conclusions about where I was and I was definitely on the left so. From the age of 13 and, and so I formed my own opinions regardless of what and I came to my own conclusions about where I was and I was definitely on the left so.
35:33

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So I guess that, yeah, moving into the activism was a a lining of both your political and your very much sort of sexual interests. Oh, yeah. So I guess that, yeah, moving into the activism was a a lining of both your political and your very much sort of sexual interests. Oh, yeah.
35:45

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Can you tell me a little bit about what would happen at a campus campus camp meeting? Can you tell me a little bit about what would happen at a campus campus camp meeting?
35:50

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Campus Camp. Campus Camp.
35:53

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We all sit in a circle. There might be by the end, by the end of 71 we would have 20 or more people, which was pretty good. We all sit in a circle. There might be by the end, by the end of 71 we would have 20 or more people, which was pretty good.
36:02

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Mostly all young men, mostly all students from University of NSW, but we used to have people from, you know, Sydney University as well who come to ours and we would occasionally go to their one Sydney University. University formed a group as well. Mostly all young men, mostly all students from University of NSW, but we used to have people from, you know, Sydney University as well who come to ours and we would occasionally go to their one Sydney University. University formed a group as well.
36:21

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Um, and, and basically what we would talk about is how we could. Um, and, and basically what we would talk about is how we could.
36:29

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Make our presence felt on campus, how we could stage little events or so on hand out leaflets explaining the laws on homosexuality that what we were asking for. And and I'm using, you know, sort of the kind of phrasing asking for, you know. Make our presence felt on campus, how we could stage little events or so on hand out leaflets explaining the laws on homosexuality that what we were asking for. And and I'm using, you know, sort of the kind of phrasing asking for, you know.
36:50

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And and then. And and then.
36:54

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And a little bit of social afterwards going to one of those bars that I've met that I said I discovered through that and, and just a. And a little bit of social afterwards going to one of those bars that I've met that I said I discovered through that and, and just a.
37:07

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Thinking up strategies for various things and one of the main things we did in that first year. Thinking up strategies for various things and one of the main things we did in that first year.
37:14

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Was whole day forum where we had a psychologist, psychiatrist debating a a media person who was in favor of liberation and what have you and and just making it open to the to the public, more students to come and see it. I can't remember. Was whole day forum where we had a psychologist, psychiatrist debating a a media person who was in favor of liberation and what have you and and just making it open to the to the public, more students to come and see it. I can't remember.
37:37

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Details of that, but our how it went but and I can't remember the the the name of the doctor, but I do know that the media person was Ann Davison and she went on supposed to be a major media presenter on the ABC and in other race and the rights are on women's affairs and so on So and she was. Details of that, but our how it went but and I can't remember the the the name of the doctor, but I do know that the media person was Ann Davison and she went on supposed to be a major media presenter on the ABC and in other race and the rights are on women's affairs and so on So and she was.
38:04

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You know. You know.
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With bells on to come and come and speak and say how, what, how much she supported that changes to all of these sorts of things that were oppressing us. She was a wonderful supporter, wasn't she? With bells on to come and come and speak and say how, what, how much she supported that changes to all of these sorts of things that were oppressing us. She was a wonderful supporter, wasn't she?
38:22

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And how did campus camp differ from camp at? Were they in Balmain at that stage? Right, Yeah, camp was in Balmain and. And how did campus camp differ from camp at? Were they in Balmain at that stage? Right, Yeah, camp was in Balmain and.
38:33

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Initially, I would say that it was a group of very academic and very conservative. Initially, I would say that it was a group of very academic and very conservative.
38:40

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People, they wanted law form, but they wanted to go about it in, in a, in a very quiet way, talking to politicians, talking to lawyers. So there were academics, there were lawyers. People, they wanted law form, but they wanted to go about it in, in a, in a very quiet way, talking to politicians, talking to lawyers. So there were academics, there were lawyers.
38:54

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And but they also had the student population, particularly from Sydney University, who and me and others attending as well and throughout that year and into 1972, more radical ways of dealing with the issue. And but they also had the student population, particularly from Sydney University, who and me and others attending as well and throughout that year and into 1972, more radical ways of dealing with the issue.
39:12

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Became to come, started to come up. And so sometimes they were nearly knocked down, drag out fights between people who wanted to be more bold and be on the streets and to be and, and to confront politicians with the realities of, of, of rather than just quietly speak to them in their office and hope that they would do something for us. And again, I'm using terminology that we used back then, 'cause was this boldness had to, had to grow and had to grow. Became to come, started to come up. And so sometimes they were nearly knocked down, drag out fights between people who wanted to be more bold and be on the streets and to be and, and to confront politicians with the realities of, of, of rather than just quietly speak to them in their office and hope that they would do something for us. And again, I'm using terminology that we used back then, 'cause was this boldness had to, had to grow and had to grow.
39:48

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Exponentially, and it's still. Exponentially, and it's still.
39:51

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Still wasn't there. I would have looked at the time like I belonged to the conservative group because I come straight from work, from the accountant's office in a, in a suit and tie and and so for a long time there, I don't think the the real radical younger students kind of trusted me to be one of them. But but that changed over time when when when I became a bit more vocal in the beginning I wasn't at all. I just sat there and listened and absorbed and. Still wasn't there. I would have looked at the time like I belonged to the conservative group because I come straight from work, from the accountant's office in a, in a suit and tie and and so for a long time there, I don't think the the real radical younger students kind of trusted me to be one of them. But but that changed over time when when when I became a bit more vocal in the beginning I wasn't at all. I just sat there and listened and absorbed and.
40:22

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So when you say asking is the terminology of the time, is that before it became demanding? Yes, before, before we said, you know, if this, you know, we demand our rights and that came with the whole philosophy of gay liberation, the the political knowledge that we were part of the. So when you say asking is the terminology of the time, is that before it became demanding? Yes, before, before we said, you know, if this, you know, we demand our rights and that came with the whole philosophy of gay liberation, the the political knowledge that we were part of the.
40:48

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Revolutions of this of the late 60s, civil rights for blacks in America, women's Lib and gay Lib and so on. All of these things, racial equality, indigenous rights, all these things were part of a, a political paradigm that we needed to change and, and we should all be united and supportive of each other in those different movements and, and not take any ****. Revolutions of this of the late 60s, civil rights for blacks in America, women's Lib and gay Lib and so on. All of these things, racial equality, indigenous rights, all these things were part of a, a political paradigm that we needed to change and, and we should all be united and supportive of each other in those different movements and, and not take any ****.
41:19

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And, and so rather than just as I say, talking to a politician, the first demonstration which camp was, you know, they, they were 100% behind it was to protest outside the Liberal Party preselection contest in the city in, in 1971, I think it was and. And, and so rather than just as I say, talking to a politician, the first demonstration which camp was, you know, they, they were 100% behind it was to protest outside the Liberal Party preselection contest in the city in, in 1971, I think it was and.
41:47

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And actually have placards and and and say you know. And actually have placards and and and say you know.
41:52

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Of nasty things about about one one of the candidates, it was a far right religious candidate. This was in ashtray and this was the well, it was just it was in in. Of nasty things about about one one of the candidates, it was a far right religious candidate. This was in ashtray and this was the well, it was just it was in in.
42:05

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The meeting was in the Liberal Party headquarters, which was in Angel Place in the city, and the preselection was for the seat of Barrera and the more liberal. The meeting was in the Liberal Party headquarters, which was in Angel Place in the city, and the preselection was for the seat of Barrera and the more liberal.
42:20

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Again, inverted commas. Again, inverted commas.
42:22

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Was Tom Hughes against the the other guy whose name escapes me and. Was Tom Hughes against the the other guy whose name escapes me and.
42:30

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And he was more likely to be a in fact, I think he had already become the member and this was he was being challenged for pre selection for the 1972 election. And yes, I'm pretty sure because he was very, very close to people like John Gordon, those sorts of people and. And he was more likely to be a in fact, I think he had already become the member and this was he was being challenged for pre selection for the 1972 election. And yes, I'm pretty sure because he was very, very close to people like John Gordon, those sorts of people and.
42:53

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So, yeah, I think I'm right in saying that. And and we were outsiders. I say say don't, don't choose this guy. Stay with Tom Hughes. You know, he's not great, but he's all right, you know, and and that was A and then, of course, as we move through. So, yeah, I think I'm right in saying that. And and we were outsiders. I say say don't, don't choose this guy. Stay with Tom Hughes. You know, he's not great, but he's all right, you know, and and that was A and then, of course, as we move through.
43:16

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As I say, what we were doing now at the university was, was, you know. As I say, what we were doing now at the university was, was, you know.
43:23

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Getting a group and disrupting some other event. Getting a group and disrupting some other event.
43:28

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And we're just shouting, you know, slug gay right slogans and so on like that and. And we're just shouting, you know, slug gay right slogans and so on like that and.
43:37

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So. So.
43:39

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It was a whole range of activities. Do you, can you remember what it felt like to be at that first demonstration when it I wasn't that what? No, no, I I don't have personal recollection of that. It was a whole range of activities. Do you, can you remember what it felt like to be at that first demonstration when it I wasn't that what? No, no, I I don't have personal recollection of that.
43:53

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I can't remember quite why, but I just wasn't but going to your first. I can't remember quite why, but I just wasn't but going to your first.
44:01

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That rallies and so on, which we started to have and we used to take over, you know, the, the, the, the lawn outside the library in. That rallies and so on, which we started to have and we used to take over, you know, the, the, the, the lawn outside the library in.
44:11

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At the University of NSW was it was a great place to have alternative student activities and what have you. At the University of NSW was it was a great place to have alternative student activities and what have you.
44:17

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And we would, we would really cause a bit of a ruckus when we went, went up there and showed our placards and Oh yeah, it was damn exciting. It was, it was felt like you were really doing something. And we would, we would really cause a bit of a ruckus when we went, went up there and showed our placards and Oh yeah, it was damn exciting. It was, it was felt like you were really doing something.
44:30

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That that some that was upsetting the status quo and and and that's what we believe would. That that some that was upsetting the status quo and and and that's what we believe would.
44:37

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Would would cause real change and so at some point campus camp became gay liberation yes 1972 I can't give you a precise. I we went into 1972 with me as secretary of campus camp. The other two main organizers had graduated and left the university so I continued as secretary of campus camp in 72 and then. Would would cause real change and so at some point campus camp became gay liberation yes 1972 I can't give you a precise. I we went into 1972 with me as secretary of campus camp. The other two main organizers had graduated and left the university so I continued as secretary of campus camp in 72 and then.
45:06

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As those more radical ideas come in. As those more radical ideas come in.
45:10

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I. I.
45:13

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I stayed on and when they were electing new officers later in that in that year of 72. I stayed on and when they were electing new officers later in that in that year of 72.
45:22

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To my surprise, I was reelected secretary. As I say, I was still in the suit and tie and. To my surprise, I was reelected secretary. As I say, I was still in the suit and tie and.
45:31

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But I think that was mainly for practical reasons. But I think that was mainly for practical reasons.
45:35

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I'm denigrating myself here that, you know, I knew how to get on with the University Union, how to book the room, how to how to run the bank account, all of those practical things. I'm denigrating myself here that, you know, I knew how to get on with the University Union, how to book the room, how to how to run the bank account, all of those practical things.
45:47

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Umm, and so I was useful in that, but no, we all became on the same wavelength very quickly. And the new, the new president was a guy called David Kenny, who was a fireball and and some other great names of people who were great activists at the time came through our group, John Store, John's story, Terence Bell. Umm, and so I was useful in that, but no, we all became on the same wavelength very quickly. And the new, the new president was a guy called David Kenny, who was a fireball and and some other great names of people who were great activists at the time came through our group, John Store, John's story, Terence Bell.
46:12

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I couldn't begin to give you a John Lee. These people are were were absolutely leading lights in the in the gay rights movement. I couldn't begin to give you a John Lee. These people are were were absolutely leading lights in the in the gay rights movement.
46:26

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And were they the people you were socializing with as well with that way your friendship network came from? Well, certainly friendships, but not. And were they the people you were socializing with as well with that way your friendship network came from? Well, certainly friendships, but not.
46:36

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Not and and and and social socializing in terms of like we go for a drink or something like that after the meetings. Not and and and and social socializing in terms of like we go for a drink or something like that after the meetings.
46:44

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But no, I didn't form any any personal intimate relationships with any of those guys. I still thought those in a more immediate way. I I have I haven't always was a what we called in those days, a beat queen. But no, I didn't form any any personal intimate relationships with any of those guys. I still thought those in a more immediate way. I I have I haven't always was a what we called in those days, a beat queen.
47:04

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And, and I kind of enjoyed that. And, and I kind of enjoyed that.
47:09

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That outdoor sex and what have you and the on the spot sex and so if I formed any relationships they but usually came from you know following on from one of those what what were the best beats in early 1970 Sydney. Yeah. By then I had a car. That outdoor sex and what have you and the on the spot sex and so if I formed any relationships they but usually came from you know following on from one of those what what were the best beats in early 1970 Sydney. Yeah. By then I had a car.
47:29

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And I was still living at Punch Bowl in 1971 and for most of 1972. And I was still living at Punch Bowl in 1971 and for most of 1972.
47:35

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And so I, yeah, I soon found all, everywhere, everywhere possible, everything. You, you can't really describe it today because people don't really. And so I, yeah, I soon found all, everywhere, everywhere possible, everything. You, you can't really describe it today because people don't really.
47:47

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Don't have have any concept of what it was like and, and and probably have sort of negative ideas about it as well because or we wouldn't do that. Well, you probably wouldn't do it now, but we had to then. And but also it was extremely enjoyable. And I don't take anything away from that. And yeah. So Bondi Rocks, S Bondi Beach. Don't have have any concept of what it was like and, and and probably have sort of negative ideas about it as well because or we wouldn't do that. Well, you probably wouldn't do it now, but we had to then. And but also it was extremely enjoyable. And I don't take anything away from that. And yeah. So Bondi Rocks, S Bondi Beach.
48:19

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Interestingly, I never got all the way to Mark's Park. I didn't need to go all the way. Interestingly, I never got all the way to Mark's Park. I didn't need to go all the way.
48:24

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Umm, and, and, and, and just about any, any place where there was a park adjacent to a public toilet, the public toilet gave you an excuse to stop your car and get out of your car and be be there. And it was kind of a protection against police action. So they were usually associated with public toilets, but. Umm, and, and, and, and just about any, any place where there was a park adjacent to a public toilet, the public toilet gave you an excuse to stop your car and get out of your car and be be there. And it was kind of a protection against police action. So they were usually associated with public toilets, but.
48:50

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So anywhere like that, in Northern beaches and all those sorts of places. I recently did an interview where I mentioned a couple of places and I kind of regret actually mentioning them because they may still operate and there are still negative situations that could occur. I mean, we know how we had all those dreadful bashings in the 70s and 80s and 90s. So anywhere like that, in Northern beaches and all those sorts of places. I recently did an interview where I mentioned a couple of places and I kind of regret actually mentioning them because they may still operate and there are still negative situations that could occur. I mean, we know how we had all those dreadful bashings in the 70s and 80s and 90s.
49:19

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And. And.
49:19

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And I kind of felt guilty about outing those places, but for historical record. And I kind of felt guilty about outing those places, but for historical record.
49:26

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They need they need to be documented and and you know, Queens Park in Waverly was was amazing place, no toilet, just a park with bushes and you know, and you know it was dozens of men there in one particular night and and another place. They need they need to be documented and and you know, Queens Park in Waverly was was amazing place, no toilet, just a park with bushes and you know, and you know it was dozens of men there in one particular night and and another place.
49:49

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But was one of the first I ever went to when I first got a car and it was Tempe on the Princess Highway and and again there was a toilet, but there was a Grove of pine trees along a factory wall. And so you know there was. But was one of the first I ever went to when I first got a car and it was Tempe on the Princess Highway and and again there was a toilet, but there was a Grove of pine trees along a factory wall. And so you know there was.
50:06

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Heaps of activity there and a very interesting thing about that was that one of the first times I went there. Heaps of activity there and a very interesting thing about that was that one of the first times I went there.
50:15

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There were a number of men having sex and there was one in particular and I recognized. There were a number of men having sex and there was one in particular and I recognized.
50:20

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And he was my next door neighbor from Punch Bowl. And he was my next door neighbor from Punch Bowl.
50:23

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He was maybe four or five years older than me and he was my next neighbor and we'd never had any kind of contact. I was far too young for him to even look over the fence at. But lots of things came back to my mind. And when I talked to him, I, I made an effort to speak to him and we walked, walked out together. And I said, I said, oh, I said, you know. He was maybe four or five years older than me and he was my next neighbor and we'd never had any kind of contact. I was far too young for him to even look over the fence at. But lots of things came back to my mind. And when I talked to him, I, I made an effort to speak to him and we walked, walked out together. And I said, I said, oh, I said, you know.
50:53

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Fancy running into you, are you hearing? He said. Yeah, I didn't always wonder, but I did for a while. Wonder and. Fancy running into you, are you hearing? He said. Yeah, I didn't always wonder, but I did for a while. Wonder and.
51:05

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And he explained to me something that I'd actually witnessed without really knowing what I was witnessed. And he explained to me something that I'd actually witnessed without really knowing what I was witnessed.
51:12

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One night and I was in my bed at Punch Bowl, and this is when I was about 17, I'd say there was a huge commotion in the middle of the night, screaming and yelling and. One night and I was in my bed at Punch Bowl, and this is when I was about 17, I'd say there was a huge commotion in the middle of the night, screaming and yelling and.
51:26

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And it was at the back gate of the of the house next door. And it was at the back gate of the of the house next door.
51:33

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Nothing more, you know, it died down after a little while and there was nothing else the following morning, my stepfather said. Nothing more, you know, it died down after a little while and there was nothing else the following morning, my stepfather said.
51:45

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That **** next door. That **** next door.
51:49

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Was something was trouble with him last night or something? Something you know I can't get. And of course when I finally met the guy. Was something was trouble with him last night or something? Something you know I can't get. And of course when I finally met the guy.
51:59

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Six years later or whatever. Five years later at least. Six years later or whatever. Five years later at least.
52:04

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I He explained what had happened that night. I He explained what had happened that night.
52:07

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He had been doing the beats. He had driven his car to Canterbury and and a gang of youths came started to attack them. He got in his car and drove all the way from Canterbury along Canterbury Rd. to Punch Bowl which is about 5 KS with them going behind him and car chase and then he managed to pull into his back his garage. He had been doing the beats. He had driven his car to Canterbury and and a gang of youths came started to attack them. He got in his car and drove all the way from Canterbury along Canterbury Rd. to Punch Bowl which is about 5 KS with them going behind him and car chase and then he managed to pull into his back his garage.
52:39

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At the back fence, but they were on, on his, on his doorstep and, and on his back fence. And so, you know, that was, that was kind of a confirmation to me that, that you know, what, what needed to change and what and what, what, what, what could happen to me if, if, if, if things didn't change. At the back fence, but they were on, on his, on his doorstep and, and on his back fence. And so, you know, that was, that was kind of a confirmation to me that, that you know, what, what needed to change and what and what, what, what, what could happen to me if, if, if, if things didn't change.
53:04

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So that's the sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, sorry. I'm not going to say, you know, it was. So that's the sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, sorry. I'm not going to say, you know, it was.
53:10

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It was a it was a very important meeting with him to get that full story about what happened and, and and, and then to actually start to realize that while I'd had a coast coasting teenage thing thinking that, you know. It was a it was a very important meeting with him to get that full story about what happened and, and and, and then to actually start to realize that while I'd had a coast coasting teenage thing thinking that, you know.
53:28

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There was, there wasn't going to be trouble or anything, but just adversity. There was, there wasn't going to be trouble or anything, but just adversity.
53:35

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It taught me that that that that violence was was was really. It taught me that that that that violence was was was really.
53:40

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The thing Did you witness any of that yourself? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm. The thing Did you witness any of that yourself? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm.
53:45

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On more than one occasion I was very lucky somehow that lack of ability to run at school deserted me when I was being chased by a couple of drunken lousy wanted to bash the **** out of me. Sorry sorry for the some of the language and so I I I probably broke using bolts record long before he did in but. On more than one occasion I was very lucky somehow that lack of ability to run at school deserted me when I was being chased by a couple of drunken lousy wanted to bash the **** out of me. Sorry sorry for the some of the language and so I I I probably broke using bolts record long before he did in but.
54:13

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The Yeah so and and another occasion at Tempe where a gang of youth muse turned up. The Yeah so and and another occasion at Tempe where a gang of youth muse turned up.
54:20

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And I pulled something out of the back of a huge and it was a bumper bar of a car, and they chased the guy down the median strip of the Princess Highway with this thing. And I was in my car at the time and driving away. So I continued up to the nearest phone box and called the police. And I pulled something out of the back of a huge and it was a bumper bar of a car, and they chased the guy down the median strip of the Princess Highway with this thing. And I was in my car at the time and driving away. So I continued up to the nearest phone box and called the police.
54:40

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But that's the sort of thing that used to happen, and I'd witnessed 234, probably five of those incidents. But that's the sort of thing that used to happen, and I'd witnessed 234, probably five of those incidents.
54:47

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Were there strategies that you had for mourning each other or looking out for each other to? Unfortunately, they weren't very, you know. Were there strategies that you had for mourning each other or looking out for each other to? Unfortunately, they weren't very, you know.
54:60

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It was, you know, run for your life and, and, and that type of stuff. Unfortunately, there were no ways that we could really gang up against them. We couldn't fight them. You just had to get away and. It was, you know, run for your life and, and, and that type of stuff. Unfortunately, there were no ways that we could really gang up against them. We couldn't fight them. You just had to get away and.
55:17

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Yeah, you know, it's not, it's not a pretty story and how responsive. Yeah, you know, it's not, it's not a pretty story and how responsive.
55:25

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Yeah. Yeah.
55:28

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And just pause for a second. And just pause for a second.
55:33

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Scott McKinnon with Barry Charles after a quick break there. Scott McKinnon with Barry Charles after a quick break there.
55:39

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Barry Yeah. So when we're talking about the the beats and I'm I'm, I'm interested in the connection between that and your politics that you saw what was happening there as a reason to fight for change. Barry Yeah. So when we're talking about the the beats and I'm I'm, I'm interested in the connection between that and your politics that you saw what was happening there as a reason to fight for change.
55:52

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Yes. Yes.
55:55

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You know, I this my sound unfair and so on, but many of the people who. You know, I this my sound unfair and so on, but many of the people who.
56:03

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Were involved in the gay liberation movements and so on. Were involved in the gay liberation movements and so on.
56:08

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Seemed to me sometimes to be very academic and very and it was all intellectual exercise and and and a purely political exercise. Whereas me, it was about my living my life the way I wanted to live it. Seemed to me sometimes to be very academic and very and it was all intellectual exercise and and and a purely political exercise. Whereas me, it was about my living my life the way I wanted to live it.
56:22

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And having the freedom to do that. And so I connected the politics in a really personal way, but. And having the freedom to do that. And so I connected the politics in a really personal way, but.
56:33

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As I said, that's probably being unfair, but in a but but but there was a number of issues along the way where I think my personal perspective of what what change would bring and what change was for gave me a a very incisive bit of political. As I said, that's probably being unfair, but in a but but but there was a number of issues along the way where I think my personal perspective of what what change would bring and what change was for gave me a a very incisive bit of political.
56:57

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Energy and and so that's so it's really important to me. Energy and and so that's so it's really important to me.
57:03

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The gay liberation liberation politics in general is not just about academic change or legal change and. The gay liberation liberation politics in general is not just about academic change or legal change and.
57:14

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Removal of a piece of legislation is about being able to live your life and to and to live it to to the fullest and, and, and so. Removal of a piece of legislation is about being able to live your life and to and to live it to to the fullest and, and, and so.
57:25

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I found that they thought that two things informed each other so, so much. Yeah, yeah. I found that they thought that two things informed each other so, so much. Yeah, yeah.
57:35

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But at the same time you were reading. But at the same time you were reading.
57:39

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The were there Oh yeah, kind of yeah, yeah. I was putting it into organising it in my mind in a in a situation where if I was challenged about issues, I would have it, you know some documentary evidence of that of what, what things were like one at one time in in particularly in in Anglo society and what had. The were there Oh yeah, kind of yeah, yeah. I was putting it into organising it in my mind in a in a situation where if I was challenged about issues, I would have it, you know some documentary evidence of that of what, what things were like one at one time in in particularly in in Anglo society and what had.
58:06

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And what why things when when were so bad now? And sometimes it just came down to legislative changes that in the case of the Crimes Act of NSW was just copied. And what why things when when were so bad now? And sometimes it just came down to legislative changes that in the case of the Crimes Act of NSW was just copied.
58:25

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From the British Crimes Act, and according to the things I read at the time, and I hope I'm right at remembering this, the NSW Crime Crimes Act, which was dated 19, about 1900, was passed without debate and without amendment. They just took the British law and slammed it onto NSW and in in that they took the legislative changes, the codification of male homosexuality. From the British Crimes Act, and according to the things I read at the time, and I hope I'm right at remembering this, the NSW Crime Crimes Act, which was dated 19, about 1900, was passed without debate and without amendment. They just took the British law and slammed it onto NSW and in in that they took the legislative changes, the codification of male homosexuality.
58:54

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And and introduce the term the abominable act of *******. And and introduce the term the abominable act of *******.
59:01

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And that had only been introduced in the 1890s. And that had only been introduced in the 1890s.
59:06

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And it was the laws that had convicted made it possible for the conviction of Oscar Wilde. And so when when when people were challenging them started to check, when I had to deal with the coming out to the family and and friends and work and what have you, I was armed with all that information. And it was the laws that had convicted made it possible for the conviction of Oscar Wilde. And so when when when people were challenging them started to check, when I had to deal with the coming out to the family and and friends and work and what have you, I was armed with all that information.
59:28

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As well as the personal experience. And so you were working through your time at UNSW, you were still yeah, I, I, I, I was a part time student as I said and not, not particularly. As well as the personal experience. And so you were working through your time at UNSW, you were still yeah, I, I, I, I was a part time student as I said and not, not particularly.
59:45

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A good one because I just wasn't interested in accounting anymore and I started to realize that the the business world that I was working in nine to five was very. A good one because I just wasn't interested in accounting anymore and I started to realize that the the business world that I was working in nine to five was very.
59:58

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Unpleasant 1. Unpleasant 1.
1:00:01

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Dishonest 1A. Very conservative one and. Dishonest 1A. Very conservative one and.
1:00:08

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And so eventually I left. And so eventually I left.
1:00:13

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The, the accounting firm that was in 1974, but I was still at, I was still trying to get through this degree, which by that time I'd been on for 5 1/2 years. And I did continue on because I thought, Oh well, at least I should, you know, I've only got 1 1/2 subjects to go. I think I'll, I should. The, the accounting firm that was in 1974, but I was still at, I was still trying to get through this degree, which by that time I'd been on for 5 1/2 years. And I did continue on because I thought, Oh well, at least I should, you know, I've only got 1 1/2 subjects to go. I think I'll, I should.
1:00:31

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Should complete it and but by April 75 I was still involved with the university group. Should complete it and but by April 75 I was still involved with the university group.
1:00:41

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And. And.
1:00:44

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I got myself a job with the public service by then and I. I got myself a job with the public service by then and I.
1:00:50

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And then I just walked out on the degree in 1975 and. And then I just walked out on the degree in 1975 and.
1:00:57

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So 6 1/2 years I've been I've been there and didn't and didn't get it. But anyway. So 6 1/2 years I've been I've been there and didn't and didn't get it. But anyway.
1:01:04

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But you've been involved in a lot of activism through that game. Yeah. You see, that was the thing I've been involved in in, in so much during that. Particularly 1973, which is like looking back on it now, if you think how could we possibly have got all that done in 73 and, and virtually we had a demo every every second week and and we had. But you've been involved in a lot of activism through that game. Yeah. You see, that was the thing I've been involved in in, in so much during that. Particularly 1973, which is like looking back on it now, if you think how could we possibly have got all that done in 73 and, and virtually we had a demo every every second week and and we had.
1:01:28

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Street theater and all sorts of of things and and it was just mind blowing. Street theater and all sorts of of things and and it was just mind blowing.
1:01:35

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It was fascinating. It was fascinating.
1:01:38

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As I was still secretary of of Galeb and University of NSW. As I was still secretary of of Galeb and University of NSW.
1:01:44

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And, umm. And, umm.
1:01:47

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And we decided we'd, we'd, we'd be at orientation week and we'd have a, a, a stall and a fair and we'd hand out leaflets and, and things, but we'd also have fairy floss and we dress up and we'd do, do outrageous things. And we went to, we had a Queen's Birthday party outside Government House in the Domain, which was very amusing thing to do with banners and pink balloons and the whole bit. And we decided we'd, we'd, we'd be at orientation week and we'd have a, a, a stall and a fair and we'd hand out leaflets and, and things, but we'd also have fairy floss and we dress up and we'd do, do outrageous things. And we went to, we had a Queen's Birthday party outside Government House in the Domain, which was very amusing thing to do with banners and pink balloons and the whole bit.
1:02:20

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While. While.
1:02:21

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The guests were arriving to the Governor General's official Queen's Birthday reception. Government very good, you know stuff. The guests were arriving to the Governor General's official Queen's Birthday reception. Government very good, you know stuff.
1:02:31

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And, and we are one of my best. One of the best ones was we decided to do a ZAP as they were called in those days. Sorry, am I talking too loud? And, and we are one of my best. One of the best ones was we decided to do a ZAP as they were called in those days. Sorry, am I talking too loud?
1:02:44

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1973 and it was a We put on a show in the Roundhouse. 1973 and it was a We put on a show in the Roundhouse.
1:02:52

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Which was a cafeteria, the ground floor. And we put on a show. Good heavens, there was a a performing group at that time, which I'm sure. Which was a cafeteria, the ground floor. And we put on a show. Good heavens, there was a a performing group at that time, which I'm sure.
1:03:07

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Historical records know all about and there's all the records called Sylvia and the Synthetics. Historical records know all about and there's all the records called Sylvia and the Synthetics.
1:03:14

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And we got two of them, Danny Abood and Doris Fish, to come to the university because we we knew them personally as well. And we got two of them, Danny Abood and Doris Fish, to come to the university because we we knew them personally as well.
1:03:24

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And put on a show. I recorded the music on an old Grundy reel to reel tape and I got dressed up myself as a biker and we mined various recordings. The the the synthetics did Andrew's sister's numbers. And put on a show. I recorded the music on an old Grundy reel to reel tape and I got dressed up myself as a biker and we mined various recordings. The the the synthetics did Andrew's sister's numbers.
1:03:45

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I did Mary Wells, my guy dressed as a biker. I did Mary Wells, my guy dressed as a biker.
1:03:51

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At the end of the Soviet synthetics piece or the end of the show, they were singing Seafood Mama. At the end of the Soviet synthetics piece or the end of the show, they were singing Seafood Mama.
1:03:60

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And they decided to throw or they, they, they planned to throw garfish into the student audience. Student audience in those days down at the lower half of the campus were mainly engineering students who were decidedly non gay and decidedly homophobic and decidedly. And they decided to throw or they, they, they planned to throw garfish into the student audience. Student audience in those days down at the lower half of the campus were mainly engineering students who were decidedly non gay and decidedly homophobic and decidedly.
1:04:25

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Rough and when they got assaulted by the garfish they returned the fire so to speak. The thing turned into a massive food fight. Rough and when they got assaulted by the garfish they returned the fire so to speak. The thing turned into a massive food fight.
1:04:36

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Which was just plain hilarious and. Which was just plain hilarious and.
1:04:40

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And it's, it's an unforgettable moment of of. And it's, it's an unforgettable moment of of.
1:04:45

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Just taking it to outrageous levels of say we're here, I don't know whether we have used the word queer exactly, but it sort of was, it was here, we're queer and **** you, you, you, you just cope, you know? And you're going to hear from us and you're going to keep hearing it from us until you make up, make, make our lives better. Yeah, Awesome, awesome stuff. And so much humour in a lot of the way you're doing. Absolutely. And then later that year. Just taking it to outrageous levels of say we're here, I don't know whether we have used the word queer exactly, but it sort of was, it was here, we're queer and **** you, you, you, you just cope, you know? And you're going to hear from us and you're going to keep hearing it from us until you make up, make, make our lives better. Yeah, Awesome, awesome stuff. And so much humour in a lot of the way you're doing. Absolutely. And then later that year.
1:05:16

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On September 15th, 1973. On September 15th, 1973.
1:05:22

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The group Gay Solidarity had now been established and even more radical group in many ways from most of the gay groups at the time, the other gay groups and they wanted to shows there was a world gay Solidarity. The group Gay Solidarity had now been established and even more radical group in many ways from most of the gay groups at the time, the other gay groups and they wanted to shows there was a world gay Solidarity.
1:05:40

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Die awake. Die awake.
1:05:43

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And so we planned to do something for for that. And so we planned to do something for for that.
1:05:48

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And. And.
1:05:50

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That was to be a March on a Saturday morning down George Street, starting at the town hall. Sorry, this is 78. No, no, no, no, no, 73. OK, So this is OK? Yep, this is from. That was to be a March on a Saturday morning down George Street, starting at the town hall. Sorry, this is 78. No, no, no, no, no, 73. OK, So this is OK? Yep, this is from.
1:06:06

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A town hall. A town hall.
1:06:09

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To Hyde Park. The idea was to go down George Street into Martin Place and lay a reef on the cenotaph as a 1973 in memory of gay servicemen. To Hyde Park. The idea was to go down George Street into Martin Place and lay a reef on the cenotaph as a 1973 in memory of gay servicemen.
1:06:26

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And then continue up to Hyde Park. Any kind of St. March was illegal. And then continue up to Hyde Park. Any kind of St. March was illegal.
1:06:34

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This was still the asking government. This was still the asking government.
1:06:39

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Any kind of St. March since the Vietnam protest was illegal. Any kind of St. March since the Vietnam protest was illegal.
1:06:47

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The place was there and they were there to control it in any way they could and stop it in any way they could. The place was there and they were there to control it in any way they could and stop it in any way they could.
1:06:56

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So we had a rally outside on the town hall steps and then we sit right, we're heading down and the police then started a crush movement against us. So we had a rally outside on the town hall steps and then we sit right, we're heading down and the police then started a crush movement against us.
1:07:08

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The officer in charge, the Superintendent in charge said you're not going to Martin Place, you're going straight up Park Street and into Hyde Park and that's the end of it. The officer in charge, the Superintendent in charge said you're not going to Martin Place, you're going straight up Park Street and into Hyde Park and that's the end of it.
1:07:20

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Well, we weren't going to take that, and instead we broke away up Park Street. Well, we weren't going to take that, and instead we broke away up Park Street.
1:07:27

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And then broke to the left down Pitt St. Pitt St. in 1973 was not a mall, it was a one way St. running from Circular Quay to Central. So we were running against through the traffic and many of us managed to make it to Martin Place. And at Martin Place we got up on to the GPS steps and there was a standoff. And then broke to the left down Pitt St. Pitt St. in 1973 was not a mall, it was a one way St. running from Circular Quay to Central. So we were running against through the traffic and many of us managed to make it to Martin Place. And at Martin Place we got up on to the GPS steps and there was a standoff.
1:07:55

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Very interesting standoff. Very interesting standoff.
1:07:56

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The police didn't think they had authority to go on to the GPO steps because it was Commonwealth property. The police didn't think they had authority to go on to the GPO steps because it was Commonwealth property.
1:08:03

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And some of our people knew that too. And so, so there there was, there was this big, but finally we said, well, we can't stay here all day. We're going to have to make a break for it and get up to what where we wanted to go into hype up. That's when the arrests really started to happen. There were had been a few in Penn St. and I don't know the numbers, I can never remember the numbers, but it was a lot was about 1/3 of the numbers of of the first Mardi Gras. And some of our people knew that too. And so, so there there was, there was this big, but finally we said, well, we can't stay here all day. We're going to have to make a break for it and get up to what where we wanted to go into hype up. That's when the arrests really started to happen. There were had been a few in Penn St. and I don't know the numbers, I can never remember the numbers, but it was a lot was about 1/3 of the numbers of of the first Mardi Gras.
1:08:35

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But those people, they were arrested, they were taken to in those days police station, which is now the police museum in just off circular key and and they were processed there and we had to. But those people, they were arrested, they were taken to in those days police station, which is now the police museum in just off circular key and and they were processed there and we had to.
1:08:55

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Rapidly get ourselves organized and back to the camp headquarters, which by then was in 33 a Glee Point road and and start trying to get bail money and and get these people out and get league representation and so on. So that's September 15th 1973 and it was a very. Rapidly get ourselves organized and back to the camp headquarters, which by then was in 33 a Glee Point road and and start trying to get bail money and and get these people out and get league representation and so on. So that's September 15th 1973 and it was a very.
1:09:21

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Very significant event for me because it was very, very frightening. It was. Very significant event for me because it was very, very frightening. It was.
1:09:29

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And. And.
1:09:31

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And it just showed us how far we had come as far as our ability to organize and to have demonstration, but how much confrontation we were going to going to face if we can, when when we continued that path and frightening in in the the way that the arrests were happening. And it just showed us how far we had come as far as our ability to organize and to have demonstration, but how much confrontation we were going to going to face if we can, when when we continued that path and frightening in in the the way that the arrests were happening.
1:09:55

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I again story of my life. I didn't get arrested myself. I managed to get to Hyde Park. I managed to get back to Glee. I again story of my life. I didn't get arrested myself. I managed to get to Hyde Park. I managed to get back to Glee.
1:10:04

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Get to them, the organizing meeting and so on. But. Get to them, the organizing meeting and so on. But.
1:10:12

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But it was. But it was.
1:10:14

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It was the first, really. It was the first, really.
1:10:18

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Demo where we actually faced violence. We had things in the past where we've been told to move on and things like that, but this was violence. Demo where we actually faced violence. We had things in the past where we've been told to move on and things like that, but this was violence.
1:10:33

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Yeah. Yeah.
1:10:40

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Is is that still a difficult thing to remember today? Is is that still a difficult thing to remember today?
1:10:45

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It affects me. It affected me then and it affected me five years later. And that's so it's my first Mardi Gras story as well, because my actions on the night of Mardi Gras, the first Mardi Gras. It affects me. It affected me then and it affected me five years later. And that's so it's my first Mardi Gras story as well, because my actions on the night of Mardi Gras, the first Mardi Gras.
1:11:03

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Are directly related to that event in 73. Are directly related to that event in 73.
1:11:09

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Yeah, maybe we'll get to that in a moment. Yeah, maybe we'll get to that in a moment.
1:11:13

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I'm conscious we haven't sort of talked about the the gay bars and the places that you were going through that time. I'm conscious we haven't sort of talked about the the gay bars and the places that you were going through that time.
1:11:21

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Do any of those stand out in your memory? Oh yeah. The first one that we were told about was Ruby Reds in Bondi Junction on Oxford St. Bondi Junction, and it was. Do any of those stand out in your memory? Oh yeah. The first one that we were told about was Ruby Reds in Bondi Junction on Oxford St. Bondi Junction, and it was.
1:11:37

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A very strange sort of place it was. A very strange sort of place it was.
1:11:46

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I I believe it was owned by Dawn O'Donnell who was part of the the coterie of of of organised crime. I I believe it was owned by Dawn O'Donnell who was part of the the coterie of of of organised crime.
1:11:56

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Owners who owned the game, but a lot of the gay premises in those days and. And so it was, I suppose today if you walked in, it'd be it'd be queer rather than gay. It was a very diverse. Owners who owned the game, but a lot of the gay premises in those days and. And so it was, I suppose today if you walked in, it'd be it'd be queer rather than gay. It was a very diverse.
1:12:15

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Set of unusual people and the next one that became our home away from home was the Rex Hotel. Now the Rex Hotel had been around for quite a long time, unbeknownst to me, but it was a full on men's gay bar. It was right in the heart of the Cross in Mcclay St. Potts Point, next to the next to the fountain. Set of unusual people and the next one that became our home away from home was the Rex Hotel. Now the Rex Hotel had been around for quite a long time, unbeknownst to me, but it was a full on men's gay bar. It was right in the heart of the Cross in Mcclay St. Potts Point, next to the next to the fountain.
1:12:44

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Interestingly. Interestingly.
1:12:46

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It was the front bar that was the gay bar. Later on in in time they turned they they created the bottoms up bar which was the back bar. But in but in the early 70s the front bar was the gay bar. It was the front bar that was the gay bar. Later on in in time they turned they they created the bottoms up bar which was the back bar. But in but in the early 70s the front bar was the gay bar.
1:13:01

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And it was all men and they were all gay. You walked in and the only kind of semi straight boys, young men that were there were male prostitutes. And it was all men and they were all gay. You walked in and the only kind of semi straight boys, young men that were there were male prostitutes.
1:13:17

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And. And.
1:13:19

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The thing was, you know, that's where that's the kind of place where they drank and then they did their work working boys along the Darlinghurst Rd. along what was called the wall. The thing was, you know, that's where that's the kind of place where they drank and then they did their work working boys along the Darlinghurst Rd. along what was called the wall.
1:13:32

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So the So the Rex Hotel at one stage in 1973 when I was living now out of home and living with a house full of gay rights activists, four of us. So the So the Rex Hotel at one stage in 1973 when I was living now out of home and living with a house full of gay rights activists, four of us.
1:13:50

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One of one of them, my closest friend, we would go to the wrecks sometimes twice a week. One of one of them, my closest friend, we would go to the wrecks sometimes twice a week.
1:13:57

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Sundays and Tuesdays. Why Tuesday? I've never no, I well, I still do because. Sundays and Tuesdays. Why Tuesday? I've never no, I well, I still do because.
1:14:02

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That was the one night that Robert had had allowed himself off from studying for his pH D. But anyway, they might have been the one night that I didn't have a lectures, but then I'd stop going to lectures anyway. That was the one night that Robert had had allowed himself off from studying for his pH D. But anyway, they might have been the one night that I didn't have a lectures, but then I'd stop going to lectures anyway.
1:14:17

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Yeah, so. And it was, it was, it was a very good atmosphere actually it was. Everyone was very friendly. Yeah, so. And it was, it was, it was a very good atmosphere actually it was. Everyone was very friendly.
1:14:28

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You you could. You you could.
1:14:30

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You know, get to talk to people. You could pick up somebody, you could prepare a night, a further night out or plan to meet up. Oh yeah, it it, it was before social. You know, get to talk to people. You could pick up somebody, you could prepare a night, a further night out or plan to meet up. Oh yeah, it it, it was before social.
1:14:48

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Atmosphere that I'd seen in the movie. Atmosphere that I'd seen in the movie.
1:14:53

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Umm, 6 years before and, and it was here, we did have it here. I was right. I knew I was right and that's that. That was what I was like. And then after that things. There are other places you could go after hours, 10:00 closing, Nickel almost 10:00 closing. And but if you rush down the hill to Chalice Ave. you could go to the Barrel Inn. Umm, 6 years before and, and it was here, we did have it here. I was right. I knew I was right and that's that. That was what I was like. And then after that things. There are other places you could go after hours, 10:00 closing, Nickel almost 10:00 closing. And but if you rush down the hill to Chalice Ave. you could go to the Barrel Inn.
1:15:23

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Which classified itself as a wine bar and serve served food. This allowed it to have a later license midnight and and so you would go in and you'd get your ticket as you went in and you would buy your side or whatever happened to be. Which classified itself as a wine bar and serve served food. This allowed it to have a later license midnight and and so you would go in and you'd get your ticket as you went in and you would buy your side or whatever happened to be.
1:15:45

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And they would come with the meal on a paper plate was a slice of ham and a slice of lettuce and a slice of tomato. And that was that qualified as a meal in order to qualify for the late for the for the late liquor license. Hilarious stuff used to be jam packed. That's why you had to rush down there when when you got the warning that the pub was that Rex was closing your sprinted down Mclay St. And they would come with the meal on a paper plate was a slice of ham and a slice of lettuce and a slice of tomato. And that was that qualified as a meal in order to qualify for the late for the for the late liquor license. Hilarious stuff used to be jam packed. That's why you had to rush down there when when you got the warning that the pub was that Rex was closing your sprinted down Mclay St.
1:16:16

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And another bar that seemed to have a later license. No, maybe it didn't, but it was in the the Chevron Hilton Hotel on the Clay St. And another bar that seemed to have a later license. No, maybe it didn't, but it was in the the Chevron Hilton Hotel on the Clay St.
1:16:28

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It's now a Woolworths metro, but. It's now a Woolworths metro, but.
1:16:33

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And it was, it was a major hotel. It was the major hotel in Sydney, apart from the Wentworth Inn in the city and and it had a bar underneath. And it was, it was a major hotel. It was the major hotel in Sydney, apart from the Wentworth Inn in the city and and it had a bar underneath.
1:16:44

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In the basement. In the basement.
1:16:47

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You came in into off Mcclay St. called it down under bar and that that the legend was that you went down there if you want to pick up a sailor from Garden Island, which I believe. You came in into off Mcclay St. called it down under bar and that that the legend was that you went down there if you want to pick up a sailor from Garden Island, which I believe.
1:17:04

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I don't think I was bold enough to do that, but anyway, and and the other after hours plays this and we're talking 7273 was Caprizio's. I don't think I was bold enough to do that, but anyway, and and the other after hours plays this and we're talking 7273 was Caprizio's.
1:17:15

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And Caprice was a nightclub on Oxford Street. It had it. It wasn't on the ground level, it was on the second and third levels. So you went up these steps and the first area was the bar and it. And Caprice was a nightclub on Oxford Street. It had it. It wasn't on the ground level, it was on the second and third levels. So you went up these steps and the first area was the bar and it.
1:17:34

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Had a license that allowed it to run late because it put on a show, not so much food this time, but a show. And I think it had to have food as well, but that was nothing. So it was able to have a bar, which was not where the show was. The show was up on the upper level. And of course we're talking about drag shows. That's that's the only kind of entertainment that the community seemed to think we could provide for each other. And it was damn good. Had a license that allowed it to run late because it put on a show, not so much food this time, but a show. And I think it had to have food as well, but that was nothing. So it was able to have a bar, which was not where the show was. The show was up on the upper level. And of course we're talking about drag shows. That's that's the only kind of entertainment that the community seemed to think we could provide for each other. And it was damn good.
1:18:05

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It was, you know, like as reluctant as I was to get involved with that, that crowd, I, I was very always impressed by the quality of what they did and. It was, you know, like as reluctant as I was to get involved with that, that crowd, I, I was very always impressed by the quality of what they did and.
1:18:18

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And so, and they did. And they do, they do like a pageant, like a story. They they, they take a musical and they reinterpret it. And so, and they did. And they do, they do like a pageant, like a story. They they, they take a musical and they reinterpret it.
1:18:30

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And and play the various characters as. And and play the various characters as.
1:18:34

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Cross dressers and whatever. So it was really, really. Cross dressers and whatever. So it was really, really.
1:18:38

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Clever. And I can remember I went there not very often, but enough times to see special shows and, and, and as late as 1976, I think. Yes. Well, well, I won't say it got burnt down in 1977 or 78, but it was burned down in 1977 and we'll leave it at that. When you say you're reluctant to get involved with that crowd, Yes. It wasn't my type of person. Clever. And I can remember I went there not very often, but enough times to see special shows and, and, and as late as 1976, I think. Yes. Well, well, I won't say it got burnt down in 1977 or 78, but it was burned down in 1977 and we'll leave it at that. When you say you're reluctant to get involved with that crowd, Yes. It wasn't my type of person.
1:19:08

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And I wasn't really into drag Queens and many of them I did, I, I found quite not because they're in drag, but because of their racial attitudes and, and bigotry. They, I can understand some people, some of their background, many of them were country boys, they grew up in, in communities with Aboriginal populations and so on. And they were very, very offensive to, to Aboriginal people. And I wasn't really into drag Queens and many of them I did, I, I found quite not because they're in drag, but because of their racial attitudes and, and bigotry. They, I can understand some people, some of their background, many of them were country boys, they grew up in, in communities with Aboriginal populations and so on. And they were very, very offensive to, to Aboriginal people.
1:19:42

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And and I, not all of them, but some major ones stay next to gout in my memory. And I didn't like that that kind of behavior. And I didn't like that, you know how it was kind of they were turning their own pain into somebody elses pain. And that was that was not, not the way for what what, what gay liberation was about. And and I, not all of them, but some major ones stay next to gout in my memory. And I didn't like that that kind of behavior. And I didn't like that, you know how it was kind of they were turning their own pain into somebody elses pain. And that was that was not, not the way for what what, what gay liberation was about.
1:20:10

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My understanding is somewhere like the Rex wouldn't be having drag though that was more no. My understanding is somewhere like the Rex wouldn't be having drag though that was more no.
1:20:15

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Was no was you know, they get they they just ran it as a normal pub, just that all the clientele was gay. Was no was you know, they get they they just ran it as a normal pub, just that all the clientele was gay.
1:20:24

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If if straight and, and probably, you know, if you think about it, a lot of straight people would have been there during the day. If if straight and, and probably, you know, if you think about it, a lot of straight people would have been there during the day.
1:20:33

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And but if they came into that front pile, they would normally gravitate to the back bar in those days. Yeah, yeah. And but if they came into that front pile, they would normally gravitate to the back bar in those days. Yeah, yeah.
1:20:41

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I'm just going to pause for a second. I'm just going to pause for a second.