Your Progress
In this transcript, you have edited

0 lines

Out of 834 available lines
0:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

My name is Martin Portus My name is Martin Portus
0:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I'm interviewing the Sydney-based international lighting designer Nick Schlieper on the 17th of April two hundred to and I'm interviewing the Sydney-based international lighting designer Nick Schlieper on the 17th of April two hundred to
0:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

2017 in the studio of the Redfern Community Centre in Sydney 2017 in the studio of the Redfern Community Centre in Sydney
0:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

This oral history interview is being conducted for the State Library of New South Wales Oral History Collection. Nick This oral history interview is being conducted for the State Library of New South Wales Oral History Collection. Nick
0:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

has received five Sydney critics or six Melbourne Green room awards has received five Sydney critics or six Melbourne Green room awards
0:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and four Helpman awards for his lighting and productions working for all the major performing arts companies in Australia in and four Helpman awards for his lighting and productions working for all the major performing arts companies in Australia in
0:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

theatre, opera dance and musicals. Nick thanks for talking with me, it's a pleasure, you were born and raised in Sydney. theatre, opera dance and musicals. Nick thanks for talking with me, it's a pleasure, you were born and raised in Sydney.
0:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

What sort of early family life.. What sort of early family life..
0:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

did you have?  [NS] Um, entirely a German one in a bubble in Australia my whole family, including my siblings are German. did you have?  [NS] Um, entirely a German one in a bubble in Australia my whole family, including my siblings are German.
0:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's technically my first language.  I didn't learn to speak English until I went school. It's technically my first language.  I didn't learn to speak English until I went school.
0:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Ah, I was very much an afterthought baby so much older siblings are Ah, I was very much an afterthought baby so much older siblings are
1:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but my parents came from really quite wealthy families, lost absolutely everything during the war, but my parents came from really quite wealthy families, lost absolutely everything during the war,
1:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so we arrived in a very strange state for them, ah, of um, very new economic circumstances so we arrived in a very strange state for them, ah, of um, very new economic circumstances
1:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and much reduced one. Ah, I was just born in Australia and obviously went to school here, and much reduced one. Ah, I was just born in Australia and obviously went to school here,
1:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but that's, that's very much my but that's, that's very much my
1:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

my background.  I don't particularly consider myself German my background.  I don't particularly consider myself German
1:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I don't particularly consider myself that Australian either so, but I don't particularly consider myself that Australian either so,
1:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so I dressed somewhere in the middle.  [MP] Were arts are part of your early childhood?  [NS] Very much so. so I dressed somewhere in the middle.  [MP] Were arts are part of your early childhood?  [NS] Very much so.
1:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So my brother was a painter, ah I say was because he died two years ago. Ah, my sister is a music teacher, So my brother was a painter, ah I say was because he died two years ago. Ah, my sister is a music teacher,
1:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

My mother had studied to be an art historian My mother had studied to be an art historian
1:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and had to break off her studies during the thirties because of what was going on in Germany at the time and had to break off her studies during the thirties because of what was going on in Germany at the time
2:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and she ended up working both initially as a model, and she ended up working both initially as a model,
2:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

she was very beautiful, but um, she ended up designing and making clothes and she continued to do that in Australia perforce because  she was very beautiful, but um, she ended up designing and making clothes and she continued to do that in Australia perforce because 
2:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

My father was sick, so most of my life here, My father was sick, so most of my life here,
2:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

he died when I was eleven. Um, so it was really up to Mum to get the whole family through he died when I was eleven. Um, so it was really up to Mum to get the whole family through
2:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and certainly to bring me up from scratch.  Ah, so she ... no, others and certainly to bring me up from scratch.  Ah, so she ... no, others
2:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I grew up surrounded by fabrics and fittings I grew up surrounded by fabrics and fittings
2:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and her beautiful sketches of clothes.  She, back in the thirties, actually designed some and her beautiful sketches of clothes.  She, back in the thirties, actually designed some
2:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

costumes for a couple of (?Orfo?) films but that was as close as she ever got to the theatre, costumes for a couple of (?Orfo?) films but that was as close as she ever got to the theatre,
2:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but her real love always was art history, and she in- inculcated that in me very, very strongly. but her real love always was art history, and she in- inculcated that in me very, very strongly.
2:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Other than her designs, the costumes, were there other elements in your life Other than her designs, the costumes, were there other elements in your life
2:60

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

like light, which led you, or the visual arts, which ah, look, in retrospect like light, which led you, or the visual arts, which ah, look, in retrospect
3:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

suggest your later career?  [NS]  Ah, absolutely my brother.  So he was eleven years older than me.  All through my youth he would suggest your later career?  [NS]  Ah, absolutely my brother.  So he was eleven years older than me.  All through my youth he would
3:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

paint all night and sleep for most of the day when he was supposed to be at University.  So every morning paint all night and sleep for most of the day when he was supposed to be at University.  So every morning
3:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when I got up to go to school. when I got up to go to school.
3:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I walked through his room, and I would see how the canvas had progressed overnight I walked through his room, and I would see how the canvas had progressed overnight
3:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that was everything from painstakingly slowly, some nights there would have been a flurry of activity and that was everything from painstakingly slowly, some nights there would have been a flurry of activity
3:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and, you know, a huge amount of work done.  Some nights tellingly, and, you know, a huge amount of work done.  Some nights tellingly,
3:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the only difference the next morning was that the whole picture had gained enormously in depth. the only difference the next morning was that the whole picture had gained enormously in depth.
3:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

For instance, he was a technically very skilled, painted in oils, and did black and white pen drawings. For instance, he was a technically very skilled, painted in oils, and did black and white pen drawings.
3:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And the oil painting was just, ah, the very technique of oil painting where you build something up with layers And the oil painting was just, ah, the very technique of oil painting where you build something up with layers
4:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and layers of glaze and just keeps becoming more and layers of glaze and just keeps becoming more
4:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and more enriched, enriched each time.  I think I learnt as much about what I currently do, and more enriched, enriched each time.  I think I learnt as much about what I currently do,
4:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which of course, also sometimes includes set design which of course, also sometimes includes set design
4:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but even just in terms of lighting, I think I learned as much from that experience but even just in terms of lighting, I think I learned as much from that experience
4:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then of course endless conversations with him. and then of course endless conversations with him.
4:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

once I was old enough to have them. Um, and watching his painting style change radically over the course of three once I was old enough to have them. Um, and watching his painting style change radically over the course of three
4:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or four decades.  He started off as a wildly abstract painter, went through a stage of very figurative (breath)  was always accused of or four decades.  He started off as a wildly abstract painter, went through a stage of very figurative (breath)  was always accused of
4:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

being very Teutonic his work, but figurative social commentary being very Teutonic his work, but figurative social commentary
4:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

if you like, work, ah, and ended up painting landscapes, um but with an incredible technical facility. if you like, work, ah, and ended up painting landscapes, um but with an incredible technical facility.
4:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so I learnt an awful lot of technique. A great deal of which can be applied, I - I now, so I learnt an awful lot of technique. A great deal of which can be applied, I - I now,
5:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when I teach I often teach via the medium of that analogy, that parallel between painting when I teach I often teach via the medium of that analogy, that parallel between painting
5:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 um, painting on a flat surface and painting with white in the three-dimensional space.   [MP] We will get to that, of course, um  um, painting on a flat surface and painting with white in the three-dimensional space.   [MP] We will get to that, of course, um
5:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You left school at about 1977, and you went straight into a job as stage manager for the Independent You left school at about 1977, and you went straight into a job as stage manager for the Independent
5:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Theatre in North Sydney.  What's your memories of that place, Theatre in North Sydney.  What's your memories of that place,
5:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at that time? I did read that you caused a lot of chaos by continually adjusting the lights every night at that time? I did read that you caused a lot of chaos by continually adjusting the lights every night
5:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in a production (laughs) so no one knew what was happening.  [NS] Dreadfully unprofessional behaviour, in a production (laughs) so no one knew what was happening.  [NS] Dreadfully unprofessional behaviour,
5:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I can only plead ignorance at the time.  Um, I left school with the benefit of spending my last few years there with one of I can only plead ignorance at the time.  Um, I left school with the benefit of spending my last few years there with one of
5:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

those teachers that we all hope we have at least one of our lives.  In my case it was my history teacher, a man called Douglas those teachers that we all hope we have at least one of our lives.  In my case it was my history teacher, a man called Douglas
5:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Booker, who had had some involvement in the theatre, Booker, who had had some involvement in the theatre,
6:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think in the UK, I never really got to the bottom of what that was, I think in the UK, I never really got to the bottom of what that was,
6:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but he certainly got me interested in light and lighting.  I ended up spending far too much of my final two years at school but he certainly got me interested in light and lighting.  I ended up spending far too much of my final two years at school
6:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

directing, designing, and making the works, everything but performing in directing, designing, and making the works, everything but performing in
6:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think no less than five or six productions in the high school hall ...  [MP speaks over] At which school? I think no less than five or six productions in the high school hall ...  [MP speaks over] At which school?
6:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I got a higher school certificate.  Um, Chatswood High School.  Um and he, he just opened my eyes to this world I got a higher school certificate.  Um, Chatswood High School.  Um and he, he just opened my eyes to this world
6:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

(? inf?).  Um, and in parallel to that my mother occasionally took me to the opera (? inf?).  Um, and in parallel to that my mother occasionally took me to the opera
6:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when we could afford it.  My brother went to the theatre when he could afford it. when we could afford it.  My brother went to the theatre when he could afford it.
6:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So it's not like that was happening in a vacuum.   But not nearly as intensively as he spoke about it. So it's not like that was happening in a vacuum.   But not nearly as intensively as he spoke about it.
6:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

He just kind of lit a spark, and ah, I was kind of He just kind of lit a spark, and ah, I was kind of
7:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

blindly heading off to study Arts Law.  Because I did miraculously get an okay HSC, and um changed my mind blindly heading off to study Arts Law.  Because I did miraculously get an okay HSC, and um changed my mind
7:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

virtually at the doorstep of Sydney University, virtually at the doorstep of Sydney University,
7:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and thought no there's something not right about this.  Ran into that teacher in the street, who said to me, and thought no there's something not right about this.  Ran into that teacher in the street, who said to me,
7:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so how did you go getting into NIDA? And I said what's NIDA? and he shouted at me, so how did you go getting into NIDA? And I said what's NIDA? and he shouted at me,
7:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

just near the station at Chatswood, [both laughing] do I have to do everything for you kind of thing, um. just near the station at Chatswood, [both laughing] do I have to do everything for you kind of thing, um.
7:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

He was an inspiring teacher but he was not an easy man.  He was an inspiring teacher but he was not an easy man. 
7:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and so I put in a very late application to NIDA thinking this was hopeless.  Best thing that could have happened to me, I was and so I put in a very late application to NIDA thinking this was hopeless.  Best thing that could have happened to me, I was
7:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

put on a shortlist of three, but technically rejected that time round because I was seventeen and you needed to be eighteen. put on a shortlist of three, but technically rejected that time round because I was seventeen and you needed to be eighteen.
7:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[MP interrupts] For what must be new design course at that time.  [NS] Ah that was a production course.  [MP repeats over] production course.  [NS] I don't know [MP interrupts] For what must be new design course at that time.  [NS] Ah that was a production course.  [MP repeats over] production course.  [NS] I don't know
8:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

(speaking over each other) [MP] not sure how long it had been ... [NS] No, it had been around for a while ... [MP] the production one ...yeah, um (speaking over each other) [MP] not sure how long it had been ... [NS] No, it had been around for a while ... [MP] the production one ...yeah, um
8:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and ah so you didn't get in, and you began a very practical career working for sort of seven years and ah so you didn't get in, and you began a very practical career working for sort of seven years
8:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

once you left the Independent, um, as a stage manager ... [NS over top] But the point of not once you left the Independent, um, as a stage manager ... [NS over top] But the point of not
8:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the point about not getting in was that I was guaranteed a place the following year...  [MP] Oh  [NS] because I had been shortlisted the point about not getting in was that I was guaranteed a place the following year...  [MP] Oh  [NS] because I had been shortlisted
8:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or I was on their, you know, reserves list or something, somebody dropped out, um, and so cocky was I or I was on their, you know, reserves list or something, somebody dropped out, um, and so cocky was I
8:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Nine months later, when NIDA rang me Nine months later, when NIDA rang me
8:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and said well, you know, where are you kind of thing, that I was incredibly arrogant about it, looked long down my nose and said well, you know, where are you kind of thing, that I was incredibly arrogant about it, looked long down my nose
8:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and said well you know, I'm now a stage manager at the Old Tote Theatre company, sod off, but and said well you know, I'm now a stage manager at the Old Tote Theatre company, sod off, but
8:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

why do I need you kind of thing? um ... [MP chuckles] ... which began a long history of, kind of verging on antagonism between me and why do I need you kind of thing? um ... [MP chuckles] ... which began a long history of, kind of verging on antagonism between me and
9:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the institution that is NIDA.  But the institution that is NIDA.  But
9:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so I, you know, I fluked this job at the Independent, it was almost dead man's shoes, so I, you know, I fluked this job at the Independent, it was almost dead man's shoes,
9:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the guy operating alliance got a huge electric shocks through the lighting desk, the guy operating alliance got a huge electric shocks through the lighting desk,
9:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which nobody told me about until I'd done that night's performance for him because he was in hospital.  My, ah,  which nobody told me about until I'd done that night's performance for him because he was in hospital.  My, ah, 
9:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

acquaintance with electricity has always been at the very best minimal and passing, so that was kind of a bit of a wake up call acquaintance with electricity has always been at the very best minimal and passing, so that was kind of a bit of a wake up call
9:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but long story short, but long story short,
9:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I ended up being the stage manager, managing nobody else. There was nobody for me to manage apart from the cast, ah I ended up being the stage manager, managing nobody else. There was nobody for me to manage apart from the cast, ah
9:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and from virtually the second show on that I did there, I ended up lighting each show.  Because my knowledge of lighting was so and from virtually the second show on that I did there, I ended up lighting each show.  Because my knowledge of lighting was so
9:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

limited and sketchy I had to experiment didn't I? To get better at it. limited and sketchy I had to experiment didn't I? To get better at it.
9:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I was reading lots of books. Richard Pilgrim's book was my bible. And I was reading lots of books. Richard Pilgrim's book was my bible.
9:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and so I thought well I'm in the perfect, uh, position to try out some of these techniques that I keep reading about. and so I thought well I'm in the perfect, uh, position to try out some of these techniques that I keep reading about.
10:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I've got a tame cast of actors onstage that I can experiment on every single night, so I did unconscionably unprofessional  (MP laughing) And I've got a tame cast of actors onstage that I can experiment on every single night, so I did unconscionably unprofessional  (MP laughing)
10:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

things, and I did indeed completely change the lights, every night, on occasion, if I felt like it  (MP laughing) things, and I did indeed completely change the lights, every night, on occasion, if I felt like it  (MP laughing)
10:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I, you know, I met Doris Fitton at the very, very end of her life; she was still nominally running the theatre. but I, you know, I met Doris Fitton at the very, very end of her life; she was still nominally running the theatre.
10:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

She nominally directed a production of Our Town.  I think her seventh or something while I was there, ah, ... [MP interrupts] and paid? She nominally directed a production of Our Town.  I think her seventh or something while I was there, ah, ... [MP interrupts] and paid?
10:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Was I paid?  I want to say forty five dollars a week. Was I paid?  I want to say forty five dollars a week.
10:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

This is in 1977, even in those days, not a princely amount of money.  Um, This is in 1977, even in those days, not a princely amount of money.  Um,
10:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I, I, kind of did everything, which was just brilliant experience. I had to pull a set down every Friday night and put and I, I, kind of did everything, which was just brilliant experience. I had to pull a set down every Friday night and put
10:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

up a kids' show set for the Saturday matinee and then pull that down up a kids' show set for the Saturday matinee and then pull that down
10:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and get the evening's show back up again.  Absolutely on my own. So you learnt to move scenery and get the evening's show back up again.  Absolutely on my own. So you learnt to move scenery
11:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you learnt how to not break it, and not break yourself and all those things. and you learnt how to not break it, and not break yourself and all those things.
11:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

What about that period, um, which did go for about seven years or so What about that period, um, which did go for about seven years or so
11:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when you were a stage manager, that was your, your job title, and um ... ah ... you worked for um ... wh-what did you  when you were a stage manager, that was your, your job title, and um ... ah ... you worked for um ... wh-what did you 
11:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

wh-what did you learn from the stage management's desk about what you were later to use in lighting design?  [NS]  Well the reason I wh-what did you learn from the stage management's desk about what you were later to use in lighting design?  [NS]  Well the reason I
11:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

fell into stage management because that was never an interest, was very simply that after ... again fell into stage management because that was never an interest, was very simply that after ... again
11:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

an arrogantly short amount of time, I'll say seven or eight months now. an arrogantly short amount of time, I'll say seven or eight months now.
11:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

From memory I decided what I actually wanted to be was a director. From memory I decided what I actually wanted to be was a director.
11:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was never one for going to institutions to learn something if I could learn it in situ I was never one for going to institutions to learn something if I could learn it in situ
11:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I doubt that I could have in those days.  Nobody had assistant directors in those days.  The stage manager was the and I doubt that I could have in those days.  Nobody had assistant directors in those days.  The stage manager was the
11:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

absolute right hand of a director, and you, I mean, on occasions even in my short time at the absolute right hand of a director, and you, I mean, on occasions even in my short time at the
12:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at the Old Tote before that became the second company I closed, um, I would go take a small group of actors into the next room at the Old Tote before that became the second company I closed, um, I would go take a small group of actors into the next room
12:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at the director's request and rehearse them in a specific scene.  I mean, you were that much at the director's request and rehearse them in a specific scene.  I mean, you were that much
12:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the directors right hand. the directors right hand.
12:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I did that in order to learn the job of directing.  I discovered very quickly that I, in fact, didn't want to be a director. and I did that in order to learn the job of directing.  I discovered very quickly that I, in fact, didn't want to be a director.
12:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Um, but then I was kind of stuck because I found that I was rather good at being a stage manager and Um, but then I was kind of stuck because I found that I was rather good at being a stage manager and
12:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when the Tote closed, ah, which is the end of seventies ... 78 ... 78 or 79 when the Tote closed, ah, which is the end of seventies ... 78 ... 78 or 79
12:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

No, 78.  Um, there were eight of us suddenly on the market.  Well I just got job after job after job, and never looked back. No, 78.  Um, there were eight of us suddenly on the market.  Well I just got job after job after job, and never looked back.
12:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it was very difficult to be a lighting designer in those days.  Um, Nigel Levings was probably the only person who had And it was very difficult to be a lighting designer in those days.  Um, Nigel Levings was probably the only person who had
13:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that title, that title,
13:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and certainly had a job to go with it.  All the lighting was done by the head electrician of the company you know with the and certainly had a job to go with it.  All the lighting was done by the head electrician of the company you know with the
13:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

director and set designer.   [MP] It was a tech job.  [NS] Absolutely a tech job. director and set designer.   [MP] It was a tech job.  [NS] Absolutely a tech job.
13:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and look to this day there are a lot of people who see my ... see my title and look to this day there are a lot of people who see my ... see my title
13:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and assume that I spend half my life up ladders ...   [MP interrupts] Despite what you said about electricity, basically an electrician. and assume that I spend half my life up ladders ...   [MP interrupts] Despite what you said about electricity, basically an electrician.
13:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yeah, don't let me near your ... don't ever ask me to rewire a plug in your house. You will smart for this, um, so I Yeah, don't let me near your ... don't ever ask me to rewire a plug in your house. You will smart for this, um, so I
13:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

kind of got sucked into it. kind of got sucked into it.
13:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was suddenly earning really good money ... [MP interrupts] as stage manager for Opera Australia  [NS simultaneously] Opera Australia, Australian Opera,  I was suddenly earning really good money ... [MP interrupts] as stage manager for Opera Australia  [NS simultaneously] Opera Australia, Australian Opera, 
13:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[MP] the new Lyric Opera of Queensland ... [NS] yeah  [MP] the State Opera of South Australia ... [NS] by when I was production manager ... ah, so a long time ago. [MP] the new Lyric Opera of Queensland ... [NS] yeah  [MP] the State Opera of South Australia ... [NS] by when I was production manager ... ah, so a long time ago.
14:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

He must be what I learnt from that job. I learnt masses because of the nature of the stage manager 's job they are. He must be what I learnt from that job. I learnt masses because of the nature of the stage manager 's job they are.
14:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

they are such a central point of contact, for just about every part of the production. they are such a central point of contact, for just about every part of the production.
14:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And any of the points that they don't function in that way for, tend to be picked up by the job, production manager. And any of the points that they don't function in that way for, tend to be picked up by the job, production manager.
14:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So by the time you've been through those two professions you have so much greater an overview of how a piece of So by the time you've been through those two professions you have so much greater an overview of how a piece of
14:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

theatre is put together. theatre is put together.
14:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then, if you got half a brain, that very quickly leads you to to thinking about why pieces of theatre are the nature and then, if you got half a brain, that very quickly leads you to to thinking about why pieces of theatre are the nature
14:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that each that each
14:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and every one of them are, because you have this overview.  That, sort of, to the philosophical side of it, if you like, ah, to the and every one of them are, because you have this overview.  That, sort of, to the philosophical side of it, if you like, ah, to the
14:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

practical end of it, you learn exactly the nuts and bolts and mechanics of putting a show on stage, practical end of it, you learn exactly the nuts and bolts and mechanics of putting a show on stage,
15:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

making it work, getting it to happen despite all the circumstances.  Knowing which strings to pull, which buttons to press making it work, getting it to happen despite all the circumstances.  Knowing which strings to pull, which buttons to press
15:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I mean the human ones, not technical ones.  Um, and I mean the human ones, not technical ones.  Um,
15:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but of course you also learn an awful lot about the specific nature of every single person's job because you are in but of course you also learn an awful lot about the specific nature of every single person's job because you are in
15:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

contact with every single person.   [MP] It might come as a surprise to people listening to a lighting man having such a conceptually contact with every single person.   [MP] It might come as a surprise to people listening to a lighting man having such a conceptually
15:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

wide, ah, sense of what theatre is.   Both in its nuts and bolts, as you just said, wide, ah, sense of what theatre is.   Both in its nuts and bolts, as you just said,
15:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but also conceptually involving all these different occupations and you just, so to speak, but also conceptually involving all these different occupations and you just, so to speak,
15:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

do the lights.  [NS]  Yes, but because I, so to speak, do the lights.  [NS]  Yes, but because I, so to speak,
15:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

just do the lights that doesn't make me an idiot (laughs)  [MP] No, but that very wi-wide perspective that you bring to doing the lights just do the lights that doesn't make me an idiot (laughs)  [MP] No, but that very wi-wide perspective that you bring to doing the lights
15:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which were talking about you, but again that's that's that's part of the job that is, I went with a underestimated. which were talking about you, but again that's that's that's part of the job that is, I went with a underestimated.
15:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's just not known that the breadth of knowledge required to be, and I say this very pointedly, to be a good lighting it's just not known that the breadth of knowledge required to be, and I say this very pointedly, to be a good lighting
16:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

designer is enormous.  It's got very little to do with electricity and nuts and bolts. designer is enormous.  It's got very little to do with electricity and nuts and bolts.
16:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's got a great deal to do with being as active a contributor to the conception of a production is anyone else on that  It's got a great deal to do with being as active a contributor to the conception of a production is anyone else on that 
16:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

production team.  So as any of the other designers and the director.  If you don't bring that to the table, production team.  So as any of the other designers and the director.  If you don't bring that to the table,
16:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

then you are, in fact, just the guy who does the lights.  [MP] We'll talk about this then you are, in fact, just the guy who does the lights.  [MP] We'll talk about this
16:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Throughout this whole interview, of course, Throughout this whole interview, of course,
16:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at this stage though of your production manager, originally stage manager, experience you're working mostly in the form of opera at this stage though of your production manager, originally stage manager, experience you're working mostly in the form of opera
16:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

um, and what did that particular, how did that particular thread of experience which was considerable, um, and what did that particular, how did that particular thread of experience which was considerable,
16:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

wh-what wh-what
16:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

what did it give you to your future life and career, clearly a very sound sort of musical base   [NS]  Yeah, I mean I, I was attracted what did it give you to your future life and career, clearly a very sound sort of musical base   [NS]  Yeah, I mean I, I was attracted
17:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to opera because I got, ha, I got bored with being a stage manager very quickly. to opera because I got, ha, I got bored with being a stage manager very quickly.
17:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I found it very, very easy to do. I found it very, very easy to do.
17:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

err, let's say that the actual ... certainly, the calling of a show component of it, and I, I found that a bit dissatisfying err, let's say that the actual ... certainly, the calling of a show component of it, and I, I found that a bit dissatisfying
17:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I thought um ... there was a job advertised, and I thought oh well, I read music. and I thought um ... there was a job advertised, and I thought oh well, I read music.
17:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I flirted with actually being a musician at one stage.  So I read music well, well um, I love music I flirted with actually being a musician at one stage.  So I read music well, well um, I love music
17:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I know that at the opera everything is a thousand times bigger and ... better, in inverted commas, but, you know, flashier, lot more going on and I know that at the opera everything is a thousand times bigger and ... better, in inverted commas, but, you know, flashier, lot more going on
17:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and, gimme a break I was 19 or something, I thought um ... and, gimme a break I was 19 or something, I thought um ...
17:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

This might be more exciting, This might be more exciting,
17:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Only to discover that it reinforced my already existing musical prejudices about the large part of the sort of capital C Only to discover that it reinforced my already existing musical prejudices about the large part of the sort of capital C
18:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

classical canon of music that I don't like. In other words, anything from the Romantic period. classical canon of music that I don't like. In other words, anything from the Romantic period.
18:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So there goes most of the standard repertoires, (laughs) um, and occasionally I got to do, ah, twentieth century works So there goes most of the standard repertoires, (laughs) um, and occasionally I got to do, ah, twentieth century works
18:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then I was happy as a pig in poop.  Give me Britten or Janacek any day and, and then I was happy as a pig in poop.  Give me Britten or Janacek any day and,
18:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of course earlier works like Mozart and Handel.   But I, um, look, it it of course earlier works like Mozart and Handel.   But I, um, look, it it
18:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It refined ... refined my confidence in running a stage. It refined ... refined my confidence in running a stage.
18:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was suddenly working with pretty difficult crews, massively older than me, I mean I was a 21 year old I was suddenly working with pretty difficult crews, massively older than me, I mean I was a 21 year old
18:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

running an entire crew at the Opera House ... um, the head mechanist, the stagehands, they were a force to be reckoned with running an entire crew at the Opera House ... um, the head mechanist, the stagehands, they were a force to be reckoned with
18:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

with and the electricians were not far behind them. with and the electricians were not far behind them.
19:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

they were kind of difficult people. So you you learn an awful lot of people management skills very quickly, um they were kind of difficult people. So you you learn an awful lot of people management skills very quickly, um
19:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then because it's a rep company and because I very quickly ended up calling fifty percent of the repertoire, ah, and then because it's a rep company and because I very quickly ended up calling fifty percent of the repertoire, ah,
19:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I divided that up very amicably with my colleague.  She liked doing all the big Joan Sutherland shows and I divided that up very amicably with my colleague.  She liked doing all the big Joan Sutherland shows
19:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and shows where ... that were technically very, very straightforward. and shows where ... that were technically very, very straightforward.
19:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I liked doing the other repertoire which tended to be more challenging, technically difficult shows I liked doing the other repertoire which tended to be more challenging, technically difficult shows
19:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the music is more difficult as well of course. and the music is more difficult as well of course.
19:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Of course, Arnhem, but because I was doing so many shoppers Of course, Arnhem, but because I was doing so many shoppers
19:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and because I again so quickly got jaded, bored with the job, and because I again so quickly got jaded, bored with the job,
19:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I would do also fairly unprofessional things like, I wouldn't open the prompt copy until the first piano dress rehearsal, I would do also fairly unprofessional things like, I wouldn't open the prompt copy until the first piano dress rehearsal,
19:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so I was sight reading a score written by somebody else from the previous revival of that production, so I was sight reading a score written by somebody else from the previous revival of that production,
20:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

not even in my own hand, just to see if I could wing it.  Ah, and with a Britten opera where some pages are black not even in my own hand, just to see if I could wing it.  Ah, and with a Britten opera where some pages are black
20:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The ki..The time signature  The ki..The time signature 
20:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

changes every three bars, that's just sort of setting yourself ridiculous little personal challenges. changes every three bars, that's just sort of setting yourself ridiculous little personal challenges.
20:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[MP] Which you never messed up?  [NS] Oh, I'm sure I did, but I never killed anyone.   [MP] Which you never messed up?  [NS] Oh, I'm sure I did, but I never killed anyone.  
20:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you had to handle nudges the divas backstage because the beavers front stage and are an array of directors. and you had to handle nudges the divas backstage because the beavers front stage and are an array of directors.
20:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

People like Elke Neidhardt, who you were to go on to have quite constant collaborations with at that time People like Elke Neidhardt, who you were to go on to have quite constant collaborations with at that time
20:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

um, then it seems like your first kind of step into lighting design happened in about 1985  [NS] mm hm  [MP] um, solely I mean um, then it seems like your first kind of step into lighting design happened in about 1985  [NS] mm hm  [MP] um, solely I mean
20:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Stepped back, because it is, it is really where my first interest lay when I started, Stepped back, because it is, it is really where my first interest lay when I started,
20:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I was just so quickly sidetracked into stage management. but I was just so quickly sidetracked into stage management.
20:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yeah yeah, um Yeah yeah, um
20:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and and it was with Barry Humphries, so you were doing a Barry Humphries show, [NS over top] which was pretty hard  [MP] um  [NS] I don't know that that, no, that would not have and and it was with Barry Humphries, so you were doing a Barry Humphries show, [NS over top] which was pretty hard  [MP] um  [NS] I don't know that that, no, that would not have
21:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

been the first show. been the first show.
21:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but also you know early on, very early on.  [MP] What was he like to do lights for?  [NS] Oh fabulous, a great time.   Actually we had a but also you know early on, very early on.  [MP] What was he like to do lights for?  [NS] Oh fabulous, a great time.   Actually we had a
21:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

really great time.  There were maybe three really great time.  There were maybe three
21:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or four of us only, um, helping him to develop the script for the show which mainly consisted of being a very attentative or four of us only, um, helping him to develop the script for the show which mainly consisted of being a very attentative
21:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

audience for Barry soliloquising.  Um... but just that whole insight into this legendary figure of Dame Edna audience for Barry soliloquising.  Um... but just that whole insight into this legendary figure of Dame Edna
21:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the others, as our favourite remains to this day, Sandy Stone. Um, that was fascinating. and the others, as our favourite remains to this day, Sandy Stone. Um, that was fascinating.
21:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The actual show was so out of my ken, in that it's ... it kind of ends up being like a great big variety show. The actual show was so out of my ken, in that it's ... it kind of ends up being like a great big variety show.
21:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So there's lots of colour and follow spots, So there's lots of colour and follow spots,
21:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's that ... it's that repertoire of lighting that to this day I kind of avoid it's that ... it's that repertoire of lighting that to this day I kind of avoid
22:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it's certainly not my ascetic cup of tea at all. and it's certainly not my ascetic cup of tea at all.
22:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I would never regret doing that show because the joy of working with Barry is enormous I would never regret doing that show because the joy of working with Barry is enormous
22:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and just being that what you make it up virtually every night. and just being that what you make it up virtually every night.
22:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Sensational...[MP]  well it must be a touch of vaudeville really.  It was ...though at this time too, this was Sensational...[MP]  well it must be a touch of vaudeville really.  It was ...though at this time too, this was
22:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

was when you began a freelance lighting design  [NS over] Yeh  [MP] career, so it was, it was possible was when you began a freelance lighting design  [NS over] Yeh  [MP] career, so it was, it was possible
22:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it was profitable to do that  [NS over] it was  [MP] at stage in Australian theatre and in your career. and it was profitable to do that  [NS over] it was  [MP] at stage in Australian theatre and in your career.
22:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was barely possible.  Um, first of all when I started saying no to stage management work It was barely possible.  Um, first of all when I started saying no to stage management work
22:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

My phone has never rung so often. All I had to do was say no. My phone has never rung so often. All I had to do was say no.
22:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Three more offers would come in.  All of which I would religiously, politely, turn down.  Um, Three more offers would come in.  All of which I would religiously, politely, turn down.  Um,
22:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but the phone never rang saying do you want to come and light this show.  Ah,  so having gone from, you know, earning really probably quite a but the phone never rang saying do you want to come and light this show.  Ah,  so having gone from, you know, earning really probably quite a
23:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

lot of money from both and a twenty-three or four-year-old, doing that manic job lot of money from both and a twenty-three or four-year-old, doing that manic job
23:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at Lyric Opera in Brisbane.  Um, suddenly no money.  Ah, but I, I kind of knew at Lyric Opera in Brisbane.  Um, suddenly no money.  Ah, but I, I kind of knew
23:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I still give this advice to people now, um, starting out. and I still give this advice to people now, um, starting out.
23:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

we, we pigeonhole people so rigidly in this industry.  If you become known as job X, we, we pigeonhole people so rigidly in this industry.  If you become known as job X,
23:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you will never get to work in job Y.  It's just really unfortunate, but that's the way it is.  And yeah you will never get to work in job Y.  It's just really unfortunate, but that's the way it is.  And yeah
23:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I am all for specialists and horses for courses I am all for specialists and horses for courses
23:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I think it sad that we pigeonhole people so early in their lives.  [MP] You think the theatre might be more lateral but I think it sad that we pigeonhole people so early in their lives.  [MP] You think the theatre might be more lateral
23:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

almost by definition, trying on different costumes all the time... [NS over top] You would think so, almost by definition, trying on different costumes all the time... [NS over top] You would think so,
23:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it, it really is not. I find, even now it's very rigid in that respect. So yeah, there was probably two but it, it really is not. I find, even now it's very rigid in that respect. So yeah, there was probably two
24:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or three very lean years, and I just had to kind of stick to my guns and keep saying no no no no no or three very lean years, and I just had to kind of stick to my guns and keep saying no no no no no
24:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

An early highlight must surely have been lighting the Sydney Theatre Company's production of Lawler's Summer of the An early highlight must surely have been lighting the Sydney Theatre Company's production of Lawler's Summer of the
24:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Seventeenth Doll. Seventeenth Doll.
24:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and, um, Michael Gow's "Away", um, which was, um, sexy because it went to New York too. [NS] they both went to New York . [MP] That's ...  looks good on an early  and, um, Michael Gow's "Away", um, which was, um, sexy because it went to New York too. [NS] they both went to New York . [MP] That's ...  looks good on an early 
24:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

CV.  [NS] Not so much the Doll because I didn't like the production in Sydney.  Um, ah ... the now-defunct Summer Fair festival in New York CV.  [NS] Not so much the Doll because I didn't like the production in Sydney.  Um, ah ... the now-defunct Summer Fair festival in New York
24:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

invited the STC to bring two shows invited the STC to bring two shows
24:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I think "Away" was possibly, being only one -year-old. was that we first did that production, and I think "Away" was possibly, being only one -year-old. was that we first did that production,
24:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which I did always like.  Ah, we did it which I did always like.  Ah, we did it
24:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in '87, and I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm right, in saying that the original production of "Away" was only in '87, and I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm right, in saying that the original production of "Away" was only
25:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

performed at the Stables [MP yep] and so I think that's the one the festival was actually after performed at the Stables [MP yep] and so I think that's the one the festival was actually after
25:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but we had to bring Doll to go with it, so I re-lit Doll in New York, but it wasn't my original design. but we had to bring Doll to go with it, so I re-lit Doll in New York, but it wasn't my original design.
25:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Can you remember the images that you sought in a way?  Um. So how do you do it? Can you remember the images that you sought in a way?  Um. So how do you do it?
25:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

How do you do this, How do you do this,
25:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

lighting job?   You had to do beaches, storms, and transitions for war, a staging in the play - a Midsummer Night's Dream.  What lighting job?   You had to do beaches, storms, and transitions for war, a staging in the play - a Midsummer Night's Dream.  What
25:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Www - what were the images that you were after, that you wanted to light?  [NS] The strongest one is the ... belongs to Www - what were the images that you were after, that you wanted to light?  [NS] The strongest one is the ... belongs to
25:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the set, it seems that you have for very obvious reasons, not just mentioned because they seem so unchallenging the set, it seems that you have for very obvious reasons, not just mentioned because they seem so unchallenging
25:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and inconsequential by comparison to series of scenes in the two children's houses that we get to meet the two sets of and inconsequential by comparison to series of scenes in the two children's houses that we get to meet the two sets of
25:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

parents and then the third set of parents without child. parents and then the third set of parents without child.
25:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and in that production, which Robert Kemp did a very beautiful set design for, for the reasons of economy, and in that production, which Robert Kemp did a very beautiful set design for, for the reasons of economy,
26:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I guess, not money economy but this economy of space.  Those scenes were played out in front of three model houses. I guess, not money economy but this economy of space.  Those scenes were played out in front of three model houses.
26:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The just flew into an enormous empty space The just flew into an enormous empty space
26:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And they were played in fairly tight areas in front of the appropriate model house on education. And they were played in fairly tight areas in front of the appropriate model house on education.
26:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The other actors were still on stage.  That was the first time, I can remember anyway, where I had to try The other actors were still on stage.  That was the first time, I can remember anyway, where I had to try
26:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and create a studio naturalistic realistic bit of light for people to perform in, in a space that was completely and create a studio naturalistic realistic bit of light for people to perform in, in a space that was completely
26:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

obstructed and stylised. obstructed and stylised.
26:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And that is fantastically useful learning experience because so much theatre takes place in stylised spaces...  [MP interrupts] But you ... And that is fantastically useful learning experience because so much theatre takes place in stylised spaces...  [MP interrupts] But you ...
26:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

... warmth to still evoke the right sense of place and possibly time of day ... warmth to still evoke the right sense of place and possibly time of day
27:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and possibly location.  [MP] While keeping a tight domestic focus of light?  [NS] Yup and possibly location.  [MP] While keeping a tight domestic focus of light?  [NS] Yup
27:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I approached that then from an incredibly simple point of view.  I actually remember consciously doing this. The scene and I approached that then from an incredibly simple point of view.  I actually remember consciously doing this. The scene
27:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Tom had with his parents, I decided in my mind, because it could have been anywhere Tom had with his parents, I decided in my mind, because it could have been anywhere
27:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I decided it was on the back porch, at night, under a single naked light globe.  Now do that on the Drama Theatre stage that's I decided it was on the back porch, at night, under a single naked light globe.  Now do that on the Drama Theatre stage that's
27:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

17 metres wide, and don't lose that sense of time and place and the atmosphere 17 metres wide, and don't lose that sense of time and place and the atmosphere
27:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that it creates.  It's that simplistic a thought process.   [MP] Pretty good that it creates.  It's that simplistic a thought process.   [MP] Pretty good
27:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I can see it.  Um, you, you fairly quickly after that in 1989, you, you came to have your first commission overseas I can see it.  Um, you, you fairly quickly after that in 1989, you, you came to have your first commission overseas
27:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

with the Schiller Theatre in then West Berlin.  Um, and this followed very quickly in '91 with the Schiller Theatre in then West Berlin.  Um, and this followed very quickly in '91
28:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you are doing a play in Stuttgart, in Vienna. Next year. you are doing a play in Stuttgart, in Vienna. Next year.
28:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the UFA review whatever that was, in East and then in West Berlin.  Um... oh how did you find Berlin, then the UFA review whatever that was, in East and then in West Berlin.  Um... oh how did you find Berlin, then
28:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

b-before the Wall came down and particularly its theatre lighting techniques? b-before the Wall came down and particularly its theatre lighting techniques?
28:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Berlin before the Wall came down was the most exciting place I have ever been in the world. It was extraordinary. Berlin before the Wall came down was the most exciting place I have ever been in the world. It was extraordinary.
28:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is certain for I think pretty obvious It is certain for I think pretty obvious
28:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and self-explanatory reasons,  you have, you have less than a million, or just on a million, I think was then, people and self-explanatory reasons,  you have, you have less than a million, or just on a million, I think was then, people
28:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

completely surrounded by an East Bloc country with, people used to say as a joke at the time, completely surrounded by an East Bloc country with, people used to say as a joke at the time,
28:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I think it actually was true, half the combined nuclear arsenal of the world. but I think it actually was true, half the combined nuclear arsenal of the world.
28:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

pointing at this tiny patch of land. From both sides of course. pointing at this tiny patch of land. From both sides of course.
29:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That creates one kind of pressure cooker.  Into that pressure cooker you add the fact that the population of Berlin was That creates one kind of pressure cooker.  Into that pressure cooker you add the fact that the population of Berlin was
29:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

massive....the demographic was massively skewed.  There are an awful lot of students because it was the one place that massive....the demographic was massively skewed.  There are an awful lot of students because it was the one place that
29:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

whilst you were studying at university in Germany you could not be asked to do national service.  They had an exemption.  Not whilst you were studying at university in Germany you could not be asked to do national service.  They had an exemption.  Not
29:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

very many people in the middle, and then a lot of people above, say fifty sixty's, so a very strange demographic. very many people in the middle, and then a lot of people above, say fifty sixty's, so a very strange demographic.
29:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The older people had largely opted to stay there The older people had largely opted to stay there
29:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and there was ...  It was my first experience of what I suppose we call an intelligentsia, of a group of people within a and there was ...  It was my first experience of what I suppose we call an intelligentsia, of a group of people within a
29:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

society whose main preoccupation is earning a crust but is in fact thinking society whose main preoccupation is earning a crust but is in fact thinking
30:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and talking to each other about what they are thinking about.  You could walk into any bar and talking to each other about what they are thinking about.  You could walk into any bar
30:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or restaurant in Berlin at that stage, and if you were on your own within five minutes or restaurant in Berlin at that stage, and if you were on your own within five minutes
30:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you would find yourself in a conversation with the person sitting next to you. you would find yourself in a conversation with the person sitting next to you.
30:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And you wouldn't be talking about the weather.  People didn't stay at home and watch TV, they And you wouldn't be talking about the weather.  People didn't stay at home and watch TV, they
30:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when out as though it a minute. when out as though it a minute.
30:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

There's, there's a sort of overtone of dancing on the volcano.  People There's, there's a sort of overtone of dancing on the volcano.  People
30:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

went out as though it might be their last opportunity to go out.  There was an urgency about all that, that drove went out as though it might be their last opportunity to go out.  There was an urgency about all that, that drove
30:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

an in- intellectual an in- intellectual
30:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and cultural life that you can't even begin to dream of in Australia.  There was something like eleven fully subsidised and cultural life that you can't even begin to dream of in Australia.  There was something like eleven fully subsidised
30:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

companies in West Berlin alone and probably a few more than that again. Just the other side of the wall. companies in West Berlin alone and probably a few more than that again. Just the other side of the wall.
30:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I could go across to both, I could go across to both,
30:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so they had this sort of cornucopia of theatre.  [MP] Was the arts part of the arsenal?  Was that one of the reasons why they were so they had this sort of cornucopia of theatre.  [MP] Was the arts part of the arsenal?  Was that one of the reasons why they were
31:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so supported, so well?  [NS] Um...absolutely um... so supported, so well?  [NS] Um...absolutely um...
31:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was called Kulture Politike, there's an actual term for it It was called Kulture Politike, there's an actual term for it
31:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and like when Germany rebuilt after the war, there was a conscious decision to concentrate on very specific, ah, and like when Germany rebuilt after the war, there was a conscious decision to concentrate on very specific, ah,
31:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

engineer, largely engineering oriented manufacturing. engineer, largely engineering oriented manufacturing.
31:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So you get kind of, as it were, luxury engineering high-end engineering, So you get kind of, as it were, luxury engineering high-end engineering,
31:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but not a lot of dross that is produced in greater quantities.  So they specialised from that end but not a lot of dross that is produced in greater quantities.  So they specialised from that end
31:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and, I mean, Germany has al-always seen itself as the direct translation is that the navel of culture, the European navel of and, I mean, Germany has al-always seen itself as the direct translation is that the navel of culture, the European navel of
31:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

culture.  Um, and another cliche, the land of thinkers and poets, both of which could be called into question, culture.  Um, and another cliche, the land of thinkers and poets, both of which could be called into question,
31:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but there is something to both of those ideas. but there is something to both of those ideas.
32:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And so the other political decision was, if you like, to market that.  They became the two founding cornerstones of the And so the other political decision was, if you like, to market that.  They became the two founding cornerstones of the
32:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

rebuilt Germany after the war.  As a cultural centre, financed accordingly rebuilt Germany after the war.  As a cultural centre, financed accordingly
32:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and served as a place of precision manufacturing and that's why the arts have always been so heavily subsidised. and served as a place of precision manufacturing and that's why the arts have always been so heavily subsidised.
32:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[MP]  And your involvement to get there in the first place was it through the director Harald Clemen?  [NS] Yes [MP]  And your involvement to get there in the first place was it through the director Harald Clemen?  [NS] Yes
32:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[MP] Who seems to have been a constant, as many directors have been through  [NS] Yes  [MP] your career ...  but in this... in this you, um, [MP] Who seems to have been a constant, as many directors have been through  [NS] Yes  [MP] your career ...  but in this... in this you, um,
32:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[MP] you and him.  You, you work together a lot in Germany.  [NS over top] Yep. He, um, [MP] you and him.  You, you work together a lot in Germany.  [NS over top] Yep. He, um,
32:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

he came out here, brought out by the Goethe Institute to do a production of Big he came out here, brought out by the Goethe Institute to do a production of Big
32:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And Little, a play that, given that it's performed very, And Little, a play that, given that it's performed very,
32:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

very rarely anywhere in the world, seems to have made its way through my life a disproportionate number of times.  He come out very rarely anywhere in the world, seems to have made its way through my life a disproportionate number of times.  He come out
33:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

here to do that, and he ... so this is '88, and in our cups after opening night, here to do that, and he ... so this is '88, and in our cups after opening night,
33:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

he said, in kind of the same speech, that I had at that stage already heard so often, from visiting usually English he said, in kind of the same speech, that I had at that stage already heard so often, from visiting usually English
33:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

directors.  Ah, to whit ... so, um um, I look forward to working with you in the UK or in London directors.  Ah, to whit ... so, um um, I look forward to working with you in the UK or in London
33:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or in this case in Germany, only Harald put it differently. He said ... we were both pretty sozzled ... so he said, or in this case in Germany, only Harald put it differently. He said ... we were both pretty sozzled ... so he said,
33:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So if I've, if I've got, if I've So if I've, if I've got, if I've
33:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If I've understood you correctly over the last few months, um, you'd prefer Berlin, but you'd  If I've understood you correctly over the last few months, um, you'd prefer Berlin, but you'd 
33:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

settle for Munich.  And I said, what are you talking about?  You are more drunk than I thought you were.  And he said well settle for Munich.  And I said, what are you talking about?  You are more drunk than I thought you were.  And he said well
33:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when we do a show together in Germany you prefer if it was in Berlin but you wouldn't mind if it was in Munich. when we do a show together in Germany you prefer if it was in Berlin but you wouldn't mind if it was in Munich.
33:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I said oh, um, I... sure.  Ah, unlike all those others within a couple of months and I said oh, um, I... sure.  Ah, unlike all those others within a couple of months
34:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

he rang me at five o clock in the morning, as Harold never did get his head and time difference and said um, do you want to come  he rang me at five o clock in the morning, as Harold never did get his head and time difference and said um, do you want to come 
34:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and do a show in Berlin?  [MP] And just generalising across the work that you did in those few years with him, and do a show in Berlin?  [MP] And just generalising across the work that you did in those few years with him,
34:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

what did he see in your work?  What was your emerging signature? It was appropriate for the sort of the theatre what did he see in your work?  What was your emerging signature? It was appropriate for the sort of the theatre
34:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that he was doing.  [NS] I am going to give you sort of the long version of this answer because I think it is pertinent. One of the reasons I think my that he was doing.  [NS] I am going to give you sort of the long version of this answer because I think it is pertinent. One of the reasons I think my
34:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

career was slow to take off in Australia was that ... so difficult to generalise about this, career was slow to take off in Australia was that ... so difficult to generalise about this,
34:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it is just my understanding, and I think w- when I started going to the theatre in Germany but it is just my understanding, and I think w- when I started going to the theatre in Germany
34:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it was, it was like a great realisation and it came fairly quickly, it was, it was like a great realisation and it came fairly quickly,
34:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that is, I suddenly understood where my ascetic had come from.  I felt like I was - I'd had aesthetically come home. that is, I suddenly understood where my ascetic had come from.  I felt like I was - I'd had aesthetically come home.
35:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So whilst in Australia, with my very early work So whilst in Australia, with my very early work
35:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

mind you, I was jokingly criticised for being - my work being very Teutonic, and very stark mind you, I was jokingly criticised for being - my work being very Teutonic, and very stark
35:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I don't use a lot of colour.  Um, I don't spend a lot of time trying to make people look nice.  I try to spend a great deal of time but I don't use a lot of colour.  Um, I don't spend a lot of time trying to make people look nice.  I try to spend a great deal of time
35:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

trying to make people look right.  That's often the same thing.  Um, I use very steep angles. trying to make people look right.  That's often the same thing.  Um, I use very steep angles.
35:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I use very cold light. I use very cold light.
35:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

All of those things were incredibly unfashionable in Australia. We- we were still very much in kind of, English boulevard All of those things were incredibly unfashionable in Australia. We- we were still very much in kind of, English boulevard
35:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

theatre lighting territory here in those days.  Um, so that was a real eye-opener to me.  The other theatre lighting territory here in those days.  Um, so that was a real eye-opener to me.  The other
35:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

eye-opener that accompanied this,  ah, was the realisation that there was no technique in German lighting and German stage light, eye-opener that accompanied this,  ah, was the realisation that there was no technique in German lighting and German stage light,
36:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or they have no lighting design. To this day my title in Germany is a list designer the job does not exist. or they have no lighting design. To this day my title in Germany is a list designer the job does not exist.
36:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

There are now- nowadays a lot of people running around in Germany calling themselves lighting designers, There are now- nowadays a lot of people running around in Germany calling themselves lighting designers,
36:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but they are exactly the same permanently employed head electricians, but they are exactly the same permanently employed head electricians,
36:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at all of the big state theatre companies.  [MP] It is like these earlier days in Australia we were talking about.  [NS over] Yep, yep.  [MP] They were producing a very at all of the big state theatre companies.  [MP] It is like these earlier days in Australia we were talking about.  [NS over] Yep, yep.  [MP] They were producing a very
36:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

different sort of theatre in inviting impact isn't yet a they not in Germany. different sort of theatre in inviting impact isn't yet a they not in Germany.
36:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but You would think if like me, and I so many people who work in Australian theatre but You would think if like me, and I so many people who work in Australian theatre
36:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and have become enamoured of German theatre, if you base that assessment on photographs of German stage productions and have become enamoured of German theatre, if you base that assessment on photographs of German stage productions
36:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

they often look stunning.  They're- they're beguiling big beautiful images. they often look stunning.  They're- they're beguiling big beautiful images.
36:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

When you see those in the flesh that's likely to be the only image.  You might sit there When you see those in the flesh that's likely to be the only image.  You might sit there
37:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and look at that for twenty minutes.  Because of the, ah, the lack of relief to the eye and look at that for twenty minutes.  Because of the, ah, the lack of relief to the eye
37:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you get very, very tired eyes from trying to look at it. you get very, very tired eyes from trying to look at it.
37:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

When you combine that with the fact that there is absolutely no technique for lighting actors, they don't learn that, When you combine that with the fact that there is absolutely no technique for lighting actors, they don't learn that,
37:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

technique doesn't exist.  That is an American invention initially, technique doesn't exist.  That is an American invention initially,
37:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it's practised in every English speaking country to some degree but it's practised in every English speaking country to some degree
37:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or other.  You know it's a- it's a cornerstone of how we light actors on a stage. It doesn't exist in Germany at all. or other.  You know it's a- it's a cornerstone of how we light actors on a stage. It doesn't exist in Germany at all.
37:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and in my experience of how lighting works there, when it gets to the actors and in my experience of how lighting works there, when it gets to the actors
37:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's a case of every man himself and you know, so I literally heard people so will if he wants to go and It's a case of every man himself and you know, so I literally heard people so will if he wants to go and
37:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

against the wall, against the wall,
37:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

then tough luck, he is going to be in the dark. Well you could just actually learn a few tricks about how you light somebody then tough luck, he is going to be in the dark. Well you could just actually learn a few tricks about how you light somebody
37:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

standing against the wall without having a big shadow behind them.  This is all do-able.  Um, so two realisations, standing against the wall without having a big shadow behind them.  This is all do-able.  Um, so two realisations,
38:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

aesthetically I suddenly felt like I had come home; practically, oh dear, this is prehistoric.  So I was inundated with offers on the aesthetically I suddenly felt like I had come home; practically, oh dear, this is prehistoric.  So I was inundated with offers on the
38:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

strength of those first two shows. strength of those first two shows.
38:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I did at the show, which were both in their middle size house, so they weren't particularly big productions.  Um I did at the show, which were both in their middle size house, so they weren't particularly big productions.  Um
38:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and they were lit very very simply, and they were lit very very simply,
38:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but they'd ... what people, particularly directors there were responding to, was, th- the attention to lighting actors but they'd ... what people, particularly directors there were responding to, was, th- the attention to lighting actors
38:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the degree of, all of those tricks that we do ... making sure that you look in the right place at the right time, making and the degree of, all of those tricks that we do ... making sure that you look in the right place at the right time, making
38:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

sure you lead the audience's eye, making sure you even play with their emotional responses to every single actor on sure you lead the audience's eye, making sure you even play with their emotional responses to every single actor on
38:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that stage at any given point in time.  Completely unheard of in German theatre.  Now the German theatre, ah ...  [MP over] Lighting designers that stage at any given point in time.  Completely unheard of in German theatre.  Now the German theatre, ah ...  [MP over] Lighting designers
38:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

other roles ....  [NS] not practised... not practised.  There's a, there's a sort of pejorative term, ah, dramaturgical lighting, other roles ....  [NS] not practised... not practised.  There's a, there's a sort of pejorative term, ah, dramaturgical lighting,
39:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which is usually said with an accompanying sneer.  Um, I had arguments with actors in Germany because they accuse me of which is usually said with an accompanying sneer.  Um, I had arguments with actors in Germany because they accuse me of
39:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

helping them and doing their job for them. helping them and doing their job for them.
39:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

"I'd rather just be doing this standing under a fluorescent tube with all the house lights on" "I'd rather just be doing this standing under a fluorescent tube with all the house lights on"
39:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

they say.  If I did that to an actor in England, in America they say.  If I did that to an actor in England, in America
39:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or in Australia, I would absolutely expect them to come to me and say "what the fuck do you think you're doing to me? or in Australia, I would absolutely expect them to come to me and say "what the fuck do you think you're doing to me?
39:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You are completely undermining my performance". You are completely undermining my performance".
39:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So w- we assume naturally that the way show is lit needs to be working absolutely in ?hand? with everything So w- we assume naturally that the way show is lit needs to be working absolutely in ?hand? with everything
39:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

else. else.
39:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Otherwise why would you be doing it not as this placed in hangover Otherwise why would you be doing it not as this placed in hangover
39:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it is very much a question, a hangover based in thinking in Germany, and it is very much a question, a hangover based in thinking in Germany,
39:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that you might even have a relatively naturalistic set, although that's unusual, but when it comes to the light, that you might even have a relatively naturalistic set, although that's unusual, but when it comes to the light,
40:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Nah, just turn on a big cold light and let everyone muddle through.  [MP]  So you see the scaffolding, if you like, Nah, just turn on a big cold light and let everyone muddle through.  [MP]  So you see the scaffolding, if you like,
40:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of the theatre.  There's no pretence.  [NS] Yep  [MP] Fascinating.  Um, we are still only up to 1990 of the theatre.  There's no pretence.  [NS] Yep  [MP] Fascinating.  Um, we are still only up to 1990
40:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when you are back in the STC, mainly applying some of the things that you've just said to Caryl Churchill's Hot Fudge and when you are back in the STC, mainly applying some of the things that you've just said to Caryl Churchill's Hot Fudge and
40:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Ice-cream', um, a double bill with again designer Robert Kemp, ah, with a lot of silhouettes, I understand, Ice-cream', um, a double bill with again designer Robert Kemp, ah, with a lot of silhouettes, I understand,
40:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and miniatures, a very witty design...  [NS] Mm  [MP] that somehow was evoking Baghdad and America, a very bold and miniatures, a very witty design...  [NS] Mm  [MP] that somehow was evoking Baghdad and America, a very bold
40:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and simple.  What kind of lighting do you bring to something like that? and simple.  What kind of lighting do you bring to something like that?
40:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Or have I just described the lighting as well as the design?  [NS] Well, Or have I just described the lighting as well as the design?  [NS] Well,
40:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

as you should, because they should be invisibly one as you should, because they should be invisibly one
40:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the same thing.  Um, I mean, it's no coincidence that I also work as a set designer.  I would never ever in my life design and the same thing.  Um, I mean, it's no coincidence that I also work as a set designer.  I would never ever in my life design
41:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

a costume for anybody.   I, I really don't ... um ... I know its history, of course, I know where it's come from, a costume for anybody.   I, I really don't ... um ... I know its history, of course, I know where it's come from,
41:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I really don't understand the natural twinning of set but I really don't understand the natural twinning of set
41:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and costume design, as the job done by, two jobs done by the same person. and costume design, as the job done by, two jobs done by the same person.
41:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think the twinning of set and lighting design is so much more natural, because if those two things not working I think the twinning of set and lighting design is so much more natural, because if those two things not working
41:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

hand-in-hand, then you're gonna have a problem.  Um, so the set designer that I work with most in my life, hand-in-hand, then you're gonna have a problem.  Um, so the set designer that I work with most in my life,
41:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Michael Scott-Mitchell, he Michael Scott-Mitchell, he
41:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I have a shorthand that ... we- we can communicate in grunts sometimes. Nobody else in the conversation has a clue and I have a shorthand that ... we- we can communicate in grunts sometimes. Nobody else in the conversation has a clue
41:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

what we're talking about.  But that is the product of years and years and years of planning everything, what we're talking about.  But that is the product of years and years and years of planning everything,
41:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I mean every single last detail of what a production is going to look like, together.  [MP] Would you like to talk first and I mean every single last detail of what a production is going to look like, together.  [MP] Would you like to talk first
42:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

about say Michael Scott-Mitchell because he is a constant in so many productions ...  [NS] Mm  [MP] um, which reach right about say Michael Scott-Mitchell because he is a constant in so many productions ...  [NS] Mm  [MP] um, which reach right
42:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

through the 90's. I particularly remember Richard Wherrett's STC production in '96, of um ... I'm thinking of  through the 90's. I particularly remember Richard Wherrett's STC production in '96, of um ... I'm thinking of 
42:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Galileo.  [NS] Yep  [MP] ah, with Michael 's set design, um ... but that's just one, um Galileo.  [NS] Yep  [MP] ah, with Michael 's set design, um ... but that's just one, um
42:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and ah, you worked also on the, on the Verdi, ah, Falstaff, which you designed and ah, you worked also on the, on the Verdi, ah, Falstaff, which you designed
42:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[NS] ah no,  Il Trovatore  [MP] yeah, yeah, um, and many others. [NS] ah no,  Il Trovatore  [MP] yeah, yeah, um, and many others.
42:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Um, what's the um ...  T- talk about the relationship about, in that case, Um, what's the um ...  T- talk about the relationship about, in that case,
42:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

because, um, do- do you need to have the set worked out first because, um, do- do you need to have the set worked out first
42:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then you know where to put the lights or, how does it work?  [NS] You need to start from the question, the very simple and then you know where to put the lights or, how does it work?  [NS] You need to start from the question, the very simple
42:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

question: why are we doing this play, opera, question: why are we doing this play, opera,
42:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

whatever?  It's ah, the more it's a classic, like ninety percent of the performed opera canon, whatever?  It's ah, the more it's a classic, like ninety percent of the performed opera canon,
43:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the more that question becomes important, because, for instance right now I'm doing, the more that question becomes important, because, for instance right now I'm doing,
43:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

about start rehearsals on my, my fifth Macbeth in my life. about start rehearsals on my, my fifth Macbeth in my life.
43:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Um, surely if you don't begin that process with the very simple question, Um, surely if you don't begin that process with the very simple question,
43:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

why are we doing the four millionth production of Macbeth in the history of the play? why are we doing the four millionth production of Macbeth in the history of the play?
43:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Why are we doing it in Melbourne in 2017? Why are we doing it in Melbourne in 2017?
43:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and even, why are we doing it at Melbourne Theatre Company knowing that that is a context different, quite different, to and even, why are we doing it at Melbourne Theatre Company knowing that that is a context different, quite different, to
43:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

doing it well. doing it well.
43:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

La Mama La Mama
43:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in Melbourne, in the same city, or doing it across the road at the Malthouse?  That is also a factor, not initially a in Melbourne, in the same city, or doing it across the road at the Malthouse?  That is also a factor, not initially a
43:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

greater one, but it is a factor. greater one, but it is a factor.
43:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If you don't start by asking that dumb fundamental question, then you're likely to just be doing yet another production of Macbeth If you don't start by asking that dumb fundamental question, then you're likely to just be doing yet another production of Macbeth
43:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

because it's there and we better do it again kind of thing. because it's there and we better do it again kind of thing.
44:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Once you answer that question that leads eventually on to what's the environment in which our production, now four Once you answer that question that leads eventually on to what's the environment in which our production, now four
44:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

millionth production of Macbeth, is going to take place? millionth production of Macbeth, is going to take place?
44:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

then it is a gradual process of homing in on that in view of Michael a revolving that in the directorate, then it is a gradual process of homing in on that in view of Michael a revolving that in the directorate,
44:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which in many cases is Simon Phillips.  Is, is, this case  [both speaking together inaudible]  [NS] I mean Michael ... which in many cases is Simon Phillips.  Is, is, this case  [both speaking together inaudible]  [NS] I mean Michael ...
44:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[NS] Simon is directing  [MP]  All right, okay, yes, that's how it works, crossovers um, so it's Simon, Michael, you, often  [NS] Yes [NS] Simon is directing  [MP]  All right, okay, yes, that's how it works, crossovers um, so it's Simon, Michael, you, often  [NS] Yes
44:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

starting at the very beginning of its travels.  [NS over top] Yes, absolutely  [MP] Because normally lighting people come in later don't they?  [NS] Well, some people do, starting at the very beginning of its travels.  [NS over top] Yes, absolutely  [MP] Because normally lighting people come in later don't they?  [NS] Well, some people do,
44:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I don't.  I actually will not work on a production that I am not part of from the start, and that's been my- my line for as long as I have been I don't.  I actually will not work on a production that I am not part of from the start, and that's been my- my line for as long as I have been
44:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

been able to do it like, certainly for the last few decades ... [MP] So what's the type of war, if that is what it been able to do it like, certainly for the last few decades ... [MP] So what's the type of war, if that is what it
44:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

is the- the collaboration between you is the- the collaboration between you
44:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and Michael?  How does it evolve, um, with whatever production uses the best example of that?  [NS] Um, I'll use  and Michael?  How does it evolve, um, with whatever production uses the best example of that?  [NS] Um, I'll use 
45:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the monster of the Ring Cycle, the monster of the Ring Cycle,
45:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Just because it is like doing twenty seven shows in one cover such a massively broad-spectrum in its its kind of using Just because it is like doing twenty seven shows in one cover such a massively broad-spectrum in its its kind of using
45:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

two brains, where you might in fact, just use one. two brains, where you might in fact, just use one.
45:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I think the whole process of a production team is using four, five, sometimes six brains where you might just use one. And I think the whole process of a production team is using four, five, sometimes six brains where you might just use one.
45:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If those four, five, six people, like all the designers, the director maybe ah, a composer maybe If those four, five, six people, like all the designers, the director maybe ah, a composer maybe
45:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

ah, maybe a dramaturg, you know that, that- that's a recipe for a kind of lowest common denominator, compromise version. ah, maybe a dramaturg, you know that, that- that's a recipe for a kind of lowest common denominator, compromise version.
45:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's only worth doing that if the end result is greater than the sum of its parts. It's only worth doing that if the end result is greater than the sum of its parts.
46:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Therefore, every single one of those people needs to contribute to that process, Therefore, every single one of those people needs to contribute to that process,
46:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

otherwise you would be much better off having an auto model where one person conceives the entire thing otherwise you would be much better off having an auto model where one person conceives the entire thing
46:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then they have specialists who carry out that vision.  And I have no issue about, that's fine. It, it's kind of a way and then they have specialists who carry out that vision.  And I have no issue about, that's fine. It, it's kind of a way
46:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Barrie Kosky works. Barrie Kosky works.
46:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

He's got a great brain, brilliant. He's got a great brain, brilliant.
46:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But that's, that's a model that, for obvious reasons, doesn't interest me.  If you going to do the more traditional one, I mean, you can't But that's, that's a model that, for obvious reasons, doesn't interest me.  If you going to do the more traditional one, I mean, you can't
46:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

imagine five or six people sitting down to write a book, ah, I'm sure it's happened, imagine five or six people sitting down to write a book, ah, I'm sure it's happened,
46:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but very rarely would  five or six people work on the same painting, or on the same sculpture; it's really only theatre but very rarely would  five or six people work on the same painting, or on the same sculpture; it's really only theatre
46:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and film that use this model of more brains input. It is only worth doing. and film that use this model of more brains input. It is only worth doing.
46:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

if those, if those brains, thanks to their, not just their own specialised knowledge, that of course, if those, if those brains, thanks to their, not just their own specialised knowledge, that of course,
47:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but also because they are different brains; they are inside different people. but also because they are different brains; they are inside different people.
47:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If that can come together If that can come together
47:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and clash in a positive tug-of-war then you're going to have an end result that is greater than the sum of the parts.   As soon as it and clash in a positive tug-of-war then you're going to have an end result that is greater than the sum of the parts.   As soon as it
47:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
just becomes a compromise get out, fast. just becomes a compromise get out, fast.
47:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's not, that's not going to help, it's only going to undo things.  So that's how Michael and I have always worked.  But that, similarly that's how It's not, that's not going to help, it's only going to undo things.  So that's how Michael and I have always worked.  But that, similarly that's how
47:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I work with Simon; that's how I worked with Harald Clemen in Germany; I work with Simon; that's how I worked with Harald Clemen in Germany;
47:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and certainly how I worked with Elke Neidhardt on many productions I did with her, um, and you know, and certainly how I worked with Elke Neidhardt on many productions I did with her, um, and you know,
47:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I also, I brought Michael and, Michael Scott-Mitchell and Simon Phillips together. I also, I brought Michael and, Michael Scott-Mitchell and Simon Phillips together.
47:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I brought Michael Scott-Mitchell and Elke Neidhardt together.  You know, it's, it's kind of you ... when you work in this way, you I brought Michael Scott-Mitchell and Elke Neidhardt together.  You know, it's, it's kind of you ... when you work in this way, you
47:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and up as a natural distillation process you end up finding each other in the very small in a world that is Australia and up as a natural distillation process you end up finding each other in the very small in a world that is Australia
48:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And you kind of, you distill together into these little families, And you kind of, you distill together into these little families,
48:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and there are,  as you can see, there are cross-fertilisations within those. But really the people, and there are,  as you can see, there are cross-fertilisations within those. But really the people,
48:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The group of people that I choose to work within within Australia is very, very small and it's one of the other reason, The group of people that I choose to work within within Australia is very, very small and it's one of the other reason,
48:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
I started working overseas. Because I just felt there were not enough people here. I started working overseas. Because I just felt there were not enough people here.
48:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I wanted to work with.  [MP]  And ah, no wonder, you've um... Michael Scott-Mitchell has made you Godparents to his daughter, I wanted to work with.  [MP]  And ah, no wonder, you've um... Michael Scott-Mitchell has made you Godparents to his daughter,
48:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

along with the ah, a- another frequent collaborator, along with the ah, a- another frequent collaborator,
48:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the late costume designer, Jenny Tate.  [NS] Yes.  [MP] Um, is it the same with Simon Phillips as a director, or is it different with the the late costume designer, Jenny Tate.  [NS] Yes.  [MP] Um, is it the same with Simon Phillips as a director, or is it different with the
48:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

director, you worked on the, going back to '91, director, you worked on the, going back to '91,
48:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the premiere of Richard Meale's  Mer de Glace with the Australian Opera the premiere of Richard Meale's  Mer de Glace with the Australian Opera
48:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and later Verdi's Falstaff with the Australian Opera, for which you won a Greenroom Award, um, well, and later Verdi's Falstaff with the Australian Opera, for which you won a Greenroom Award, um, well,
49:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
what sort of brief, working process, do you want from the director?  What...  [NS] Again it's not a brief. It's just a conversation about what sort of brief, working process, do you want from the director?  What...  [NS] Again it's not a brief. It's just a conversation about
49:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

what are we doing, why are we doing it, and that inevitably leads to how are we doing it?  Um, Simon 's wife, Carolyn what are we doing, why are we doing it, and that inevitably leads to how are we doing it?  Um, Simon 's wife, Carolyn
49:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
in a recent interview. in a recent interview.
49:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

accused us of finishing each others sentences, to a degree that even she, as his long-standing wife, was, was not able accused us of finishing each others sentences, to a degree that even she, as his long-standing wife, was, was not able
49:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to do.  It's a, it, to do.  It's a, it,
49:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
It's a kind of, it's a shorthand that ari... arises out of, obviously, like-minded thinking but, um. It's a kind of, it's a shorthand that ari... arises out of, obviously, like-minded thinking but, um.
49:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but also just practice, just doing it together.  Simon but also just practice, just doing it together.  Simon
49:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I recently celebrated our twenty-fifth anniversary of working together by co- designing a set. and I recently celebrated our twenty-fifth anniversary of working together by co- designing a set.
49:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Now there's a recipe for disaster. Now there's a recipe for disaster.
49:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's the first time I've ever done that.  Um, and there are obvious good reasons for not[laughs] doing that.  Very dangerous. That's the first time I've ever done that.  Um, and there are obvious good reasons for not[laughs] doing that.  Very dangerous.
50:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but, you know when that, in this circumstance, I can do that with complete confidence but, you know when that, in this circumstance, I can do that with complete confidence
50:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and without ever losing  ...  [MP] How do you refresh those partnerships?  Can't they go stale? and without ever losing  ...  [MP] How do you refresh those partnerships?  Can't they go stale?
50:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If you know what Simon is saying with every sentence it, If you know what Simon is saying with every sentence it,
50:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

if you can finish it, how can you actually get fresh creativity if you can finish it, how can you actually get fresh creativity
50:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and in an industry which is quite small in Australia, you can't really be, ah, too choosy. and in an industry which is quite small in Australia, you can't really be, ah, too choosy.
50:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Can you about who you can work for, Can you about who you can work for,
50:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
because um, ah, you need the work, and you need the stimulation?  [NS] Ah, this is why I am so lucky because um, ah, you need the work, and you need the stimulation?  [NS] Ah, this is why I am so lucky
50:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
in being able to choose that's um... I think the single biggest turning point in my dubious career was the moment in being able to choose that's um... I think the single biggest turning point in my dubious career was the moment
50:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when I realised that I no longer had to say yes to every offer.  Was the- the sense of freedom of finally being able to when I realised that I no longer had to say yes to every offer.  Was the- the sense of freedom of finally being able to
50:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

just do the things that I want to do.  That is the single most significant point, more significant than the Ring cycle just do the things that I want to do.  That is the single most significant point, more significant than the Ring cycle
51:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
or- or any other production I could name, or (?mice are) set design or- or any other production I could name, or (?mice are) set design
51:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or any of those things.  It's simply being able to take that bit of your own life into your own hands or any of those things.  It's simply being able to take that bit of your own life into your own hands
51:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and just saying no, I don't want to do that.  To your point about getting stale it's, that's extremely true it is a very and just saying no, I don't want to do that.  To your point about getting stale it's, that's extremely true it is a very
51:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
dangerous thing and it's a very great possibility.  Again another reason why I started working overseas.  A way dangerous thing and it's a very great possibility.  Again another reason why I started working overseas.  A way
51:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
I keep, in small doses, but enough um, a) to stop the staleness within any one of those working relationships, I keep, in small doses, but enough um, a) to stop the staleness within any one of those working relationships,
51:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and, b) just to make sure I don't get, you know, twisted about the sometimes dreadful state of the very, and, b) just to make sure I don't get, you know, twisted about the sometimes dreadful state of the very,
51:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

very tiny industry that is theatre in Australia. very tiny industry that is theatre in Australia.
51:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
What was it like at around this stage of 90 What was it like at around this stage of 90
51:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
to 91, working on Strauss 's Elektra in South Australia with the film director Bruce Beresford, because (inaudible) to 91, working on Strauss 's Elektra in South Australia with the film director Bruce Beresford, because (inaudible)
52:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
as a director of opera.  Did you get on well with him?   [NS] Nah (laughs)  [MP] Why not? What sort of creative disagreements did you have that didn't work in as a director of opera.  Did you get on well with him?   [NS] Nah (laughs)  [MP] Why not? What sort of creative disagreements did you have that didn't work in
52:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
that case?  [NS] Um, I think I will, I will loosely quote myself because I was very angry, that case?  [NS] Um, I think I will, I will loosely quote myself because I was very angry,
52:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
one I've said since, and I probably will not completely get right, and it is a long time ago, one I've said since, and I probably will not completely get right, and it is a long time ago,
52:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
but, (coughs) um, I essentially accused him of ah, initially approaching it under completely false pretences because I didn't get (inaudible). but, (coughs) um, I essentially accused him of ah, initially approaching it under completely false pretences because I didn't get (inaudible).
52:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Everything he had said to me was about how awful his memories of going to opera as a young man in the fifties were. Everything he had said to me was about how awful his memories of going to opera as a young man in the fifties were.
52:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
The kind of opera that took place in those (inaudible - stygian). The kind of opera that took place in those (inaudible - stygian).
52:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 stygian? gloom, amongst other things.  Ah, only to discover that  stygian? gloom, amongst other things.  Ah, only to discover that
52:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when we were, we actually had the show in the theatre, um, that is in fact exactly what he seemed to want.  Um, when we were, we actually had the show in the theatre, um, that is in fact exactly what he seemed to want.  Um,
52:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and in fact, I offered to withdraw from the production.  That's how bad it was.  Um, so you've chosen very well there Martin. and in fact, I offered to withdraw from the production.  That's how bad it was.  Um, so you've chosen very well there Martin.
53:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
But it was a nocturnal story that he wanted, that you delivered, that, lit by a moon? But it was a nocturnal story that he wanted, that you delivered, that, lit by a moon?
53:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
Burning torches?  WAsn't that the kind of ...  lighting vision...  [NS over]  Yeah...  that that was his, but it wasn't mine, or  Burning torches?  WAsn't that the kind of ...  lighting vision...  [NS over]  Yeah...  that that was his, but it wasn't mine, or 
53:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it certainly wasn't what we discussed.  Um, it was just a really naff, boring old piece of  it certainly wasn't what we discussed.  Um, it was just a really naff, boring old piece of 
53:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 pseudo-naturalistic 1950s opera.  Plus I discovered that he knew nothing about staging at all, whatsoever, and  pseudo-naturalistic 1950s opera.  Plus I discovered that he knew nothing about staging at all, whatsoever, and
53:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
th- the whole thing made worse by the fact that ... it was, like, that there's this... through a brilliant fluke Elektra is work th- the whole thing made worse by the fact that ... it was, like, that there's this... through a brilliant fluke Elektra is work
53:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
that fell through the cracks in Australia.  Most opera in that, the  standard repertoire that fell through the cracks in Australia.  Most opera in that, the  standard repertoire
53:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and slightly wider field than that, (coughs).  Works from that time received productions in Australia very, and slightly wider field than that, (coughs).  Works from that time received productions in Australia very,
54:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

very early on in their lives. very early on in their lives.
54:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Surprisingly, you'll find some company did it in the 1920s or 30s in Melbourne. Surprisingly, you'll find some company did it in the 1920s or 30s in Melbourne.
54:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
Not Elektra.  In that, in that, ever.  Like, a major Strauss opera had never been performed in Australia. Not Elektra.  In that, in that, ever.  Like, a major Strauss opera had never been performed in Australia.
54:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So this was a golden opportunity to do the Australian premiere of Richard Strauss's Elektra.  [MP] Mmm, mm.  [NS]  Like that doesn't come So this was a golden opportunity to do the Australian premiere of Richard Strauss's Elektra.  [MP] Mmm, mm.  [NS]  Like that doesn't come
54:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
along very often.  And in my opinion it was then given to somebody to direct, who was completely incompetent to ??inaudible.  [MP] Um... along very often.  And in my opinion it was then given to somebody to direct, who was completely incompetent to ??inaudible.  [MP] Um...
54:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Did you know that? Is Did you know that? Is
54:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that why you asked me that question?   [MP] No, I didn't know that.  [NS]  Because I don't think that's particularly well known.  [MP] Um, how did you go  that why you asked me that question?   [MP] No, I didn't know that.  [NS]  Because I don't think that's particularly well known.  [MP] Um, how did you go 
54:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

then at about the same time doing, ah, Wagner's Lohengrin, um with the Opera Australia then at about the same time doing, ah, Wagner's Lohengrin, um with the Opera Australia
54:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

designer Kenneth Rose set. [sic Kenneth Rowell].  Um. I wanted to ask you about this production because of the lighting, designer Kenneth Rose set. [sic Kenneth Rowell].  Um. I wanted to ask you about this production because of the lighting,
54:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

There was described as dimming There was described as dimming
54:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and brightening to suggest a sort of shifting intensity in that Wagner opera. Um, is that wh.. is that what you were... is that how you and brightening to suggest a sort of shifting intensity in that Wagner opera. Um, is that wh.. is that what you were... is that how you
55:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Is that how you remember it?  [NS]  Ah, yes, the whole first act is set in a forest that was made of very stylised metallic structures. Is that how you remember it?  [NS]  Ah, yes, the whole first act is set in a forest that was made of very stylised metallic structures.
55:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and I spent a lot of time essentially trying to figure out ways of bouncing light off those metallic structures and I spent a lot of time essentially trying to figure out ways of bouncing light off those metallic structures
55:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and moving it very, very gently, very, very slowly, very, very subtly, so didn't it become this greatly distracting light show. and moving it very, very gently, very, very slowly, very, very subtly, so didn't it become this greatly distracting light show.
55:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
But just sort of shifted within the natural movements of the first act, um, that was the beginning of my But just sort of shifted within the natural movements of the first act, um, that was the beginning of my
55:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Wagner career. [laughs]  Wagner being th- the composer that I particularly dislike. Ah..  [MP] We'll get to the Ring Wagner career. [laughs]  Wagner being th- the composer that I particularly dislike. Ah..  [MP] We'll get to the Ring
55:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of course; there's a lot of Wagner.  Why do you dislike Wagner..  [NS] Um  [MP] from a lighting perspective if not else?  [NS] No, of course; there's a lot of Wagner.  Why do you dislike Wagner..  [NS] Um  [MP] from a lighting perspective if not else?  [NS] No,
55:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
nothing to do with lighting. I think, um, in fact the lighting is spec?? nothing to do with lighting. I think, um, in fact the lighting is spec??
56:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
 is why I keep doing it.  Um, I think ... it's a very simple, I think there's two kinds of Germans.  is why I keep doing it.  Um, I think ... it's a very simple, I think there's two kinds of Germans.
56:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

There's the kind who when they hear Wagner immediately leap to their feet, and find a, you know, impulse to raise their right hand, There's the kind who when they hear Wagner immediately leap to their feet, and find a, you know, impulse to raise their right hand,
56:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then there's the kind who like me, get this very unpleasant feeling in the pit of their stomach, or in fact in my case and then there's the kind who like me, get this very unpleasant feeling in the pit of their stomach, or in fact in my case
56:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at the base of my spine usually, and it just makes me incredibly uncomfortable, at the base of my spine usually, and it just makes me incredibly uncomfortable,
56:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I think his music is laden with his vile philosophy and I think his music is laden with his vile philosophy
56:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and thinking. It is so on display.  [MP]  W-, hold that thought.  We will get to it when we get to the Ring.  But Lohengrin, and thinking. It is so on display.  [MP]  W-, hold that thought.  We will get to it when we get to the Ring.  But Lohengrin,
56:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and now I and now I
56:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I wanted to ask you about, ah, this, ah, criticism that I've read of the lighting that um, and you have been ... I wanted to ask you about, ah, this, ah, criticism that I've read of the lighting that um, and you have been ...
56:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when lighting gets critical attention you get good attention when lighting gets critical attention you get good attention
56:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it gets rare attention.  In this particular criticism is that, ah your your your, it drew attention to the lighting but it gets rare attention.  In this particular criticism is that, ah your your your, it drew attention to the lighting
56:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

plot rather than the emotions of the moment.  It's always a hard thing for, f- for lighting isn't it to ... plot rather than the emotions of the moment.  It's always a hard thing for, f- for lighting isn't it to ...
57:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You want to be expressive but you, you can't ...  [NS over top] What is the exact comment?  You want to be expressive but you, you can't ...  [NS over top] What is the exact comment? 
57:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
[NS] I don't remember that.  [MP] With the Sun Herald drawing, saying drawing attention to the lighting plot rather than the [NS] I don't remember that.  [MP] With the Sun Herald drawing, saying drawing attention to the lighting plot rather than the
57:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[NS] oh, so drawing attention to myself ... [MP] Yes ...  [NS] being a coarse lighting designer ...  [MP] Yes, yes [NS] oh, so drawing attention to myself ... [MP] Yes ...  [NS] being a coarse lighting designer ...  [MP] Yes, yes
57:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

... by that old definition.  I suspect that that is partly coming from what  ... by that old definition.  I suspect that that is partly coming from what 
57:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
I was saying before about my very unpopular aesthetic.  Ah, I mean, that Lohengrin was a perfect case in point.  A production that with I was saying before about my very unpopular aesthetic.  Ah, I mean, that Lohengrin was a perfect case in point.  A production that with
57:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

one notable exception, was apparently monochromatic.   Certainly lit very, one notable exception, was apparently monochromatic.   Certainly lit very,
57:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

very steeply, using very acute sharp angles, very harsh angles, very steeply, using very acute sharp angles, very harsh angles,
57:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and using a very large quantity of lights, of which I'm still guilty. and using a very large quantity of lights, of which I'm still guilty.
57:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It went to the back wall of the State theatre, It went to the back wall of the State theatre,
58:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at the Victorian Arts Centre.  That is a double depth stage. It was a big big production. at the Victorian Arts Centre.  That is a double depth stage. It was a big big production.
58:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it also had one very spectacular moment, um, in the middle of the last act; that was my only disagreement with And it also had one very spectacular moment, um, in the middle of the last act; that was my only disagreement with
58:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

August Everding who nominally directed that production, ah, in that he- he accused me actually of exactly that, August Everding who nominally directed that production, ah, in that he- he accused me actually of exactly that,
58:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that it is too spectacular. that it is too spectacular.
58:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's too distracting from the moment.  My reply to that was, what moment?  It's yet another rousing rumpty-tum Wagner male it's too distracting from the moment.  My reply to that was, what moment?  It's yet another rousing rumpty-tum Wagner male
58:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
chorus [MP laughs]  [NS] about going to war. What, hell, you know, let's at least make it look spectacular. chorus [MP laughs]  [NS] about going to war. What, hell, you know, let's at least make it look spectacular.
58:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So it's, So it's,
58:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's interesting.  I, if I did read that at the time I've forgotten it.  It's the opposite of what I'm normally accused of it's interesting.  I, if I did read that at the time I've forgotten it.  It's the opposite of what I'm normally accused of
58:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
but  that, that's good.  [MP] That's very interesting.  Um, also I'd like to ask you about but  that, that's good.  [MP] That's very interesting.  Um, also I'd like to ask you about
58:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

another role of the lighting designer allegedly is, is to ... another role of the lighting designer allegedly is, is to ...
58:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
you have a story telling role.  Speaking earlier of ... th- the dramaturgical design, ah, which you made a reference to, um you have a story telling role.  Speaking earlier of ... th- the dramaturgical design, ah, which you made a reference to, um
59:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Ah, wh- what's the storytelling role of the lighting designer? I was thinking about, this reading about, um Ah, wh- what's the storytelling role of the lighting designer? I was thinking about, this reading about, um
59:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when you have a challenge of a lot of short scenes, like the adaptation of Dymphna Cusack's 1935 novel when you have a challenge of a lot of short scenes, like the adaptation of Dymphna Cusack's 1935 novel
59:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Jungfrau, ah, which you did for Melbourne Playbox production.  Thirty-three scenes Jungfrau, ah, which you did for Melbourne Playbox production.  Thirty-three scenes
59:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
or something?  Yeah, what is your storytelling role or something?  Yeah, what is your storytelling role
59:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when you got to light that kind of passing parade?  [NS] I will use a different production when you got to light that kind of passing parade?  [NS] I will use a different production
59:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

if I may.  Um, just simply 'cause it illustrates the point better.  Exactly the same point but, ah, if I may.  Um, just simply 'cause it illustrates the point better.  Exactly the same point but, ah,
59:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that is the very recent Chimerica, just closed a few weeks ago.  Massive big, and that is the very recent Chimerica, just closed a few weeks ago.  Massive big,
59:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

open space.  So again you have no, there's no physical structure to help you, ah, as an audience, locate time and place. open space.  So again you have no, there's no physical structure to help you, ah, as an audience, locate time and place.
1:00:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

This is a British play about ah, the ah, the story of the man, in a fictional story This is a British play about ah, the ah, the story of the man, in a fictional story
1:00:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

perhaps, of the man who held up the tank at Tiananmen Square, holding his plastic shopping bags perhaps, of the man who held up the tank at Tiananmen Square, holding his plastic shopping bags
1:00:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and ah, so, a big space, not much on it, and about thirty up and ah, so, a big space, not much on it, and about thirty up
1:00:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but up, up to about thirty actors, so you had a lot of body movement and ... [NS] Thirty actors but up, up to about thirty actors, so you had a lot of body movement and ... [NS] Thirty actors
1:00:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and forty something scenes.  ah, Some of which were quite short and fleeting, others not.  So in terms of the storytelling, and forty something scenes.  ah, Some of which were quite short and fleeting, others not.  So in terms of the storytelling,
1:00:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you need to make absolutely sure that, within the shortest amount of time after the show begins, you establish a language you need to make absolutely sure that, within the shortest amount of time after the show begins, you establish a language
1:00:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

with the audience. Not just for, with the audience. Not just for,
1:00:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but with the audience. That doesn't leave them wondering where am I now.  So one of the reasons I'm using Chimerica as an example is it but with the audience. That doesn't leave them wondering where am I now.  So one of the reasons I'm using Chimerica as an example is it
1:00:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

goes between America and China, so it jumps continents goes between America and China, so it jumps continents
1:00:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it consistently jumps from 1989 to 2012, and you don't want people sitting there and it consistently jumps from 1989 to 2012, and you don't want people sitting there
1:01:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

missing the beginning of the scene because they're going, shit, where am I now? when I now? which, which time, and which country missing the beginning of the scene because they're going, shit, where am I now? when I now? which, which time, and which country
1:01:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

am I in? And obviously there's a lot of, um, weapons in the arsenal to help do that storytelling. am I in? And obviously there's a lot of, um, weapons in the arsenal to help do that storytelling.
1:01:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
[MP]  How? How do you start those scenes so that they don't lose track?  [NS] I meant other things other than light. [MP]  How? How do you start those scenes so that they don't lose track?  [NS] I meant other things other than light.
1:01:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
So, what people are wearing being the obvious thing.  But in play of this nature often and there isn't a time or, indeed, So, what people are wearing being the obvious thing.  But in play of this nature often and there isn't a time or, indeed,
1:01:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

there's not the desire for people to do massive costume changes or ... [MP] No, no there's not the desire for people to do massive costume changes or ... [MP] No, no
1:01:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So you make sure that each location has one overriding look to it, So you make sure that each location has one overriding look to it,
1:01:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you make sure that the first time you go to that location. That's the first thing you show the audience. and you make sure that the first time you go to that location. That's the first thing you show the audience.
1:01:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You don't necessarily complete the image straight away. You show them the calling sign. You don't necessarily complete the image straight away. You show them the calling sign.
1:02:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You show them the, the-ah, identifying symbol ... [MP over] That's light  [NS]... light for that scene, and then, you light the rest of that scene. You show them the, the-ah, identifying symbol ... [MP over] That's light  [NS]... light for that scene, and then, you light the rest of that scene.
1:02:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
the way ... [inaudible] [MP interrupts] Because there's a lot ... in Chimerica there's a lot of quick domestic scenes aren't there, and it moves at   the way ... [inaudible] [MP interrupts] Because there's a lot ... in Chimerica there's a lot of quick domestic scenes aren't there, and it moves at  
1:02:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

quite a pace, [NS] Yep  [MP] and yet it is globally themed?  [NS] Yes, but if, if you ... particularly because that they are very fast moving quite a pace, [NS] Yep  [MP] and yet it is globally themed?  [NS] Yes, but if, if you ... particularly because that they are very fast moving
1:02:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and because some of them are very short, and because some of them are very short,
1:02:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

if you've got your audience sitting there going, now hang on, where am I now, I'm confused, if you've got your audience sitting there going, now hang on, where am I now, I'm confused,
1:02:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
they've missed half the information, in the (???) so that's a really vital piece of storytelling and  they've missed half the information, in the (???) so that's a really vital piece of storytelling and 
1:02:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and it, that is purely storytelling. and it, that is purely storytelling.
1:02:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's not ... got nothing to do with manipulating an audience's feelings about any person It's not ... got nothing to do with manipulating an audience's feelings about any person
1:02:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or thing in that particular scene.  It is simply telling people ... setting up a set of signposts that are so recognisable that you or thing in that particular scene.  It is simply telling people ... setting up a set of signposts that are so recognisable that you
1:02:60

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
don't have an audience going "hang on, where am I?"   [MP] You put a lot of cross-lighting in that production, didn't you?  That's a favourite signature. don't have an audience going "hang on, where am I?"   [MP] You put a lot of cross-lighting in that production, didn't you?  That's a favourite signature.
1:03:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
Lighting that comes out of the sides, [NS] It is It is. Lighting that comes out of the sides, [NS] It is It is.
1:03:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and this causes on the dancers, quite a sculptural impact.  [NS]  Well, it's usually I mean the history of that kind of, low angle sidelight is and this causes on the dancers, quite a sculptural impact.  [NS]  Well, it's usually I mean the history of that kind of, low angle sidelight is
1:03:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

absolutely from dance because it makes bodies look fantastic. absolutely from dance because it makes bodies look fantastic.
1:03:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And a long long long long time ago I started going, well hang on, it also makes peoples faces so much more interesting And a long long long long time ago I started going, well hang on, it also makes peoples faces so much more interesting
1:03:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and so much more present. and so much more present.
1:03:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it solves the age-old problem of two people standing on stage at right angles to the audience talking to each other, And it solves the age-old problem of two people standing on stage at right angles to the audience talking to each other,
1:03:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the way we do in real life, where all the light is coming from the audience side or from behind them, the way we do in real life, where all the light is coming from the audience side or from behind them,
1:03:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but not actually from the axis on which their speaking to each other.  This in turn creates a whole lot of problems, but not actually from the axis on which their speaking to each other.  This in turn creates a whole lot of problems,
1:03:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but that's another conversation. but that's another conversation.
1:03:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
It's, it's a great way of making an actor's face feel more present to somebody sitting long way away. It's, it's a great way of making an actor's face feel more present to somebody sitting long way away.
1:04:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's not so terrific for people sitting in the front rows, but It's not so terrific for people sitting in the front rows, but
1:04:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
when you've got a two thousand seat theatre you have to be a little bit democratic about the experience the people up when you've got a two thousand seat theatre you have to be a little bit democratic about the experience the people up
1:04:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
the back are getting as well.  [MP] That's sensitive, because a lot of people sit up the back. ... um, the back are getting as well.  [MP] That's sensitive, because a lot of people sit up the back. ... um,
1:04:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
The, ah, it must be stimulating, ah, and particularly around this period of, kind of, mid-nineties, um, to, to then The, ah, it must be stimulating, ah, and particularly around this period of, kind of, mid-nineties, um, to, to then
1:04:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

then move into non-theatre settings, like you did with a Macbeth at the Australian Theatre for Young People which you did in a very then move into non-theatre settings, like you did with a Macbeth at the Australian Theatre for Young People which you did in a very
1:04:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

cavernous shed in, ah cavernous shed in, ah
1:04:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and then in, the ??on Bay, again with Michael Scott-Mitchell.  Um, truckloads of rocks and earth, and a lot  and then in, the ??on Bay, again with Michael Scott-Mitchell.  Um, truckloads of rocks and earth, and a lot 
1:04:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
kind of, shadows and candlelight.  Um, it was a very sc- scary Macbeth.  Was that the sort of image you were after?  [NS] Yeah  [MP] Scary kind of, shadows and candlelight.  Um, it was a very sc- scary Macbeth.  Was that the sort of image you were after?  [NS] Yeah  [MP] Scary
1:04:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and uh, kind of what, industrial?  [NS]  Because that's that Pier of H??on was not, um, unlike the wharf, and uh, kind of what, industrial?  [NS]  Because that's that Pier of H??on was not, um, unlike the wharf,
1:05:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it is not a beautiful atmospheric, it is not a beautiful atmospheric,
1:05:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
[MP] Hadn't been done over, no.  [NS] of the 20's. No, it was just a big utilitarian industrial concrete metal shed. um, So that that production took on a flavour of the [MP] Hadn't been done over, no.  [NS] of the 20's. No, it was just a big utilitarian industrial concrete metal shed. um, So that that production took on a flavour of the
1:05:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

place because otherwise why would you do it there?   That, if you look between the cracks, it kind of, maybe, hinted at a post-industrial place because otherwise why would you do it there?   That, if you look between the cracks, it kind of, maybe, hinted at a post-industrial
1:05:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
world but sat quite happily as an industrial-timed world, um world but sat quite happily as an industrial-timed world, um
1:05:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and we were very fortunate with that because the ah, the Sydney airport tunnel, that we all now use, was being excavated and we were very fortunate with that because the ah, the Sydney airport tunnel, that we all now use, was being excavated
1:05:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
at the time, and apparently dumping rock [MP] oh the rocks [NS] was really problematic, at the time, and apparently dumping rock [MP] oh the rocks [NS] was really problematic,
1:05:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
so we thought whacko. We negotiated I think it was a hundred so we thought whacko. We negotiated I think it was a hundred
1:05:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and something tip-trucks worth of freshly ploughed out of the earth Sydney shale?  Beautiful stuff. and something tip-trucks worth of freshly ploughed out of the earth Sydney shale?  Beautiful stuff.
1:06:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and we, for a couple of days, we had this progression of tip-trucks, driving into the theatre as it were, and we, for a couple of days, we had this progression of tip-trucks, driving into the theatre as it were,
1:06:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but straight into the wharf, dumping the load but straight into the wharf, dumping the load
1:06:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and we had three bobcat geniuses driving around. And Michael and I would just stand there and go, I think that should just slope a and we had three bobcat geniuses driving around. And Michael and I would just stand there and go, I think that should just slope a
1:06:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

little more steeply. And one of these guys would drive his little bobcat up there and do it.  [MP] laughs little more steeply. And one of these guys would drive his little bobcat up there and do it.  [MP] laughs
1:06:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it only came back to bite us And it only came back to bite us
1:06:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
when we discovered the dumping problem at the other end of the process.  That it was going to cost a fortune, having got it all when we discovered the dumping problem at the other end of the process.  That it was going to cost a fortune, having got it all
1:06:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
free ... [MP] Oh right. [NS] No- nobody naively free ... [MP] Oh right. [NS] No- nobody naively
1:06:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
 stopped to think why they were being so nice and giving it to us for free.  stopped to think why they were being so nice and giving it to us for free.
1:06:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
It's because them, for the ATYP to get rid of it, was going to cost a prohibitive amount of a money. [coughs] I am not exactly quite sure about how they ended up solving that either. It's because them, for the ATYP to get rid of it, was going to cost a prohibitive amount of a money. [coughs] I am not exactly quite sure about how they ended up solving that either.
1:06:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That was a lot of um, a lot of real natural light sources. That was a lot of um, a lot of real natural light sources.
1:06:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So, a wall of three hundred odd candles.  We laid out a trail of little tea lights that brought the audience So, a wall of three hundred odd candles.  We laid out a trail of little tea lights that brought the audience
1:07:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the two hundred metres down the length of the pier.  We had the cement floor sprayed down with a hose every night before we opened the two hundred metres down the length of the pier.  We had the cement floor sprayed down with a hose every night before we opened
1:07:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
the house so that all the tea lights just sat in the wet slicked asphalt floor, concrete floor.  Um, the house so that all the tea lights just sat in the wet slicked asphalt floor, concrete floor.  Um,
1:07:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and we used quite a bit of real flame in the show itself. And very, and we used quite a bit of real flame in the show itself. And very,
1:07:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

very minimal light, lighting.  Because it's all part and parcel of why you do it in a warehouse not in a theatre. very minimal light, lighting.  Because it's all part and parcel of why you do it in a warehouse not in a theatre.
1:07:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

What's the point if you transport it ...  [MP] There are a lot of those shows at that time in Sydney, um and Carriageworks too, before What's the point if you transport it ...  [MP] There are a lot of those shows at that time in Sydney, um and Carriageworks too, before
1:07:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Carriageworks became what it is today. Carriageworks became what it is today.
1:07:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
When it was just a cavernous space in that sense.  You did Black Mary about Captain Thunderbolt's mistress ... [NS] Yep  [MP] um When it was just a cavernous space in that sense.  You did Black Mary about Captain Thunderbolt's mistress ... [NS] Yep  [MP] um
1:07:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And didn't that have lots of, sort of scrub and hills and ... And didn't that have lots of, sort of scrub and hills and ...
1:07:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

with more trucks of rocks?   [NS] Um that that had a massive rake of, I want to say it was sixty metres long, or in that region, um, with more trucks of rocks?   [NS] Um that that had a massive rake of, I want to say it was sixty metres long, or in that region, um,
1:08:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and came...was a very long drawn out triangle that came almost to a point at the bac, the upstage edge, um, and and came...was a very long drawn out triangle that came almost to a point at the bac, the upstage edge, um, and
1:08:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and had a kind of a waterfall at the back of a, ah, and had a kind of a waterfall at the back of a, ah,
1:08:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that was built up over containers. Because to build a rake of that size would have been astronomically expensive.  Ah, so and that was built up over containers. Because to build a rake of that size would have been astronomically expensive.  Ah, so
1:08:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that was Belvoir Street. They got hold of a whole lot of shipping containers and then in fact, that was Belvoir Street. They got hold of a whole lot of shipping containers and then in fact,
1:08:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
that's where some of the, you just reminded me, that's where some of the shale went from Macbeth.  [MP] laughs  [NS] It was used as in that's where some of the, you just reminded me, that's where some of the shale went from Macbeth.  [MP] laughs  [NS] It was used as in
1:08:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

between filler, in between the shipping containers, between filler, in between the shipping containers,
1:08:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Verify
and then they became the basis for the structure of the rake.  But the rake was strong enough that it had two horses riding around on it. and then they became the basis for the structure of the rake.  But the rake was strong enough that it had two horses riding around on it.
1:08:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so no, it was quite quite a thing. so no, it was quite quite a thing.
1:08:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Unfortunately, Unfortunately,
1:08:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the seating bank was not strong enough to contain the number of audience who were sitting on it. And it all collapsed about 4 shows the seating bank was not strong enough to contain the number of audience who were sitting on it. And it all collapsed about 4 shows
1:08:60

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

shows into the run and ended very, very badly. [MP] Oh yes that's right shows into the run and ended very, very badly. [MP] Oh yes that's right
1:09:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that was a disaster. Maybe it was the curse of Macbeth that played into the other play because that was a disaster. Maybe it was the curse of Macbeth that played into the other play because
1:09:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when I think you did Macbeth 's arm. You're about to do. Macbeth with the Melbourne Theatre Company. when I think you did Macbeth 's arm. You're about to do. Macbeth with the Melbourne Theatre Company.
1:09:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

as you said earlier, but not so long ago the Sydney Theatre Company you did Macbeth with Hugo Weaving in the role as you said earlier, but not so long ago the Sydney Theatre Company you did Macbeth with Hugo Weaving in the role
1:09:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you completely reversed the Wharf Theatre. You got an Award for lighting the Sydney and you completely reversed the Wharf Theatre. You got an Award for lighting the Sydney
1:09:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Wharf yes. Where the audience were sitting on the stage and the action was in the auditorium. How did you light that? [NS] Well the action Wharf yes. Where the audience were sitting on the stage and the action was in the auditorium. How did you light that? [NS] Well the action
1:09:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

was also on the stage. The auditorium was used .. we used quite intentionally very, very sparingly was also on the stage. The auditorium was used .. we used quite intentionally very, very sparingly
1:09:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the first time it was used was well into the evening, and the first time it was used was well into the evening,
1:09:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so we cheated the stage out over a couple or first 4 rows of the theatre. But so we cheated the stage out over a couple or first 4 rows of the theatre. But
1:09:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when you were sitting on stage in very uncomfortable seating as the audience never tied of reminding us (quite rightly when you were sitting on stage in very uncomfortable seating as the audience never tied of reminding us (quite rightly
1:10:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so) it was very uncomfortable. so) it was very uncomfortable.
1:10:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You felt like you were only seeing the stage. In fact you were seeing the stage and a couple of metres You felt like you were only seeing the stage. In fact you were seeing the stage and a couple of metres
1:10:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But we left the auditorium completely as a background for quite a long way, in fact pretty well up to the ghost of Banquo But we left the auditorium completely as a background for quite a long way, in fact pretty well up to the ghost of Banquo
1:10:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

because [MP] Quite black? [NS] the whole idea, well no, not quite black. because [MP] Quite black? [NS] the whole idea, well no, not quite black.
1:10:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The whole idea of this massive indulgence you take an 880 seat theatre The whole idea of this massive indulgence you take an 880 seat theatre
1:10:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you use the 880 seats as a backdrop and you have I think it was 400, 300 and   and you use the 880 seats as a backdrop and you have I think it was 400, 300 and  
1:10:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

something very uncomfortable plastic chairs on stage for the audience to sit on. Tantalisingly showing them what are, something very uncomfortable plastic chairs on stage for the audience to sit on. Tantalisingly showing them what are,
1:10:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in my experience the most comfortable theatre seats in the world. Which they look at lovingly as they   in my experience the most comfortable theatre seats in the world. Which they look at lovingly as they  
1:10:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

shifted in the little plastic buckets. The whole, that whole idea came from the weight of history, shifted in the little plastic buckets. The whole, that whole idea came from the weight of history,
1:11:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

as represented by 800 empty chairs, just looming behind the events of the first couple of acts at Macbeth. as represented by 800 empty chairs, just looming behind the events of the first couple of acts at Macbeth.
1:11:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The feeling of those tombstones are those silent now dead witnesses who have seen all of this before, lived through The feeling of those tombstones are those silent now dead witnesses who have seen all of this before, lived through
1:11:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

tyrants many over and over again. tyrants many over and over again.
1:11:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

who are silently watching yet another repeat of this cycle being played out. So it was all those sorts of resonanes [MP] How did you light, those seats? who are silently watching yet another repeat of this cycle being played out. So it was all those sorts of resonanes [MP] How did you light, those seats?
1:11:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was a combination of what I was accused of in Lohengrin - just what makes this place look good? It was a combination of what I was accused of in Lohengrin - just what makes this place look good?
1:11:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and partly, mainly, ...tombstones were a strong part of that. I found ways of highlighting the backs of the chairs, for instance, and partly, mainly, ...tombstones were a strong part of that. I found ways of highlighting the backs of the chairs, for instance,
1:12:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

without lighting the fronts of them that really just gave you a set of upsidedown U-shaped shapes. without lighting the fronts of them that really just gave you a set of upsidedown U-shaped shapes.
1:12:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Much like the top of a tombstone if you wish, if you want to read it that way. And occasionally I be used. Much like the top of a tombstone if you wish, if you want to read it that way. And occasionally I be used.
1:12:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The the walls of that of the auditorium as well to make the thing feel The the walls of that of the auditorium as well to make the thing feel
1:12:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

more enclosed. [MP] What about lighting as a window in psychological states? more enclosed. [MP] What about lighting as a window in psychological states?
1:12:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was thinking of Edward Albee's A Delicate Balance that you did in '98 with the Sydney Theatre Company, again with I was thinking of Edward Albee's A Delicate Balance that you did in '98 with the Sydney Theatre Company, again with
1:12:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Simon Phillips directing, Michael Scott-Mitchell designing. A monumental set it was, teetering on the very bad taste Simon Phillips directing, Michael Scott-Mitchell designing. A monumental set it was, teetering on the very bad taste
1:12:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of the very rich of the very rich
1:12:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it also something about the instability of those characters too. As it's  described to me. [NS] I adored that but it also something about the instability of those characters too. As it's  described to me. [NS] I adored that
1:12:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the play. the play.
1:12:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's the second time I've done it. Which is  also strange because it is hardly a top pop That's the second time I've done it. Which is  also strange because it is hardly a top pop
1:13:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it's... I think it is so much superior to Virginia Woolf. People refer to as it as the little sister. That  is, but it's... I think it is so much superior to Virginia Woolf. People refer to as it as the little sister. That  is,
1:13:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that is a study of people in crisis. And the whole point of the environment. that is a study of people in crisis. And the whole point of the environment.
1:13:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you've just described, being verging on bad taste, but also oozing money and comfort, creature comforts you've just described, being verging on bad taste, but also oozing money and comfort, creature comforts
1:13:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and in in this place that is replete with creature comforts, people who seem to have very settled boring, and in in this place that is replete with creature comforts, people who seem to have very settled boring,
1:13:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but prefectly happy lives, being eaten away at by something which is never named in the play. but prefectly happy lives, being eaten away at by something which is never named in the play.
1:13:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

We never get to find out what it is. We never get to find out what it is.
1:13:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That causes Harry and Edna to turn up on the doorstep of their dearest oldest friends was a small suitcase each, saying That causes Harry and Edna to turn up on the doorstep of their dearest oldest friends was a small suitcase each, saying
1:13:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

we've come to stay vecasue we're scared. That is a perfect example of using a shift in the entire  quality of the light throughout we've come to stay vecasue we're scared. That is a perfect example of using a shift in the entire  quality of the light throughout
1:14:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the evening to amplify this sense of unease. And it should the evening to amplify this sense of unease. And it should
1:14:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when you get that trick right, you should go from something that feels incredibly predictable looking when you get that trick right, you should go from something that feels incredibly predictable looking
1:14:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and where nothing about it calls itself into question. It doesn't cause anybody to have any any question at all about the and where nothing about it calls itself into question. It doesn't cause anybody to have any any question at all about the
1:14:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

security and intactness of that home. And then imperceptibly very, very slowly throughout the evening. security and intactness of that home. And then imperceptibly very, very slowly throughout the evening.
1:14:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In that case, In that case,
1:14:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

all the light just came from a completely different place over the course of about an hour. [MP] Did the actors respond to that as all the light just came from a completely different place over the course of about an hour. [MP] Did the actors respond to that as
1:14:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

a sort of psychological reading outside them of themselves? [NS]  Absolutely a sort of psychological reading outside them of themselves? [NS]  Absolutely
1:14:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I do spend a lot of time talking to actors about why things ...I'm doing things the way I am doing them, and I do spend a lot of time talking to actors about why things ...I'm doing things the way I am doing them,
1:15:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I frequently get somebody to go and sit in the auditorium and I show them what they look like. and I frequently get somebody to go and sit in the auditorium and I show them what they look like.
1:15:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I'll even run that lighting transition in fast forward so they can see the difference between the beginning And I'll even run that lighting transition in fast forward so they can see the difference between the beginning
1:15:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the end for instance. Because  that.. assuming you are working with a halfways intelligent actor, that help... that's something that helps and the end for instance. Because  that.. assuming you are working with a halfways intelligent actor, that help... that's something that helps
1:15:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

them to know how what it is that they do will be seen, literally seen them to know how what it is that they do will be seen, literally seen
1:15:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but also perceived by the audience for which they are doing it. [MP] I suppose a contrast, I jut want to talk to you about another play but also perceived by the audience for which they are doing it. [MP] I suppose a contrast, I jut want to talk to you about another play
1:15:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

for the STC. The for the STC. The
1:15:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Love for Love, so we are suddenly in a Restoration setting with Congreve Love for Love, so we are suddenly in a Restoration setting with Congreve
1:15:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it was the ??Ausset?? quoted critic again said it was overdesigned, affected production which And it was the ??Ausset?? quoted critic again said it was overdesigned, affected production which
1:15:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

He he had some problem with because. He he had some problem with because.
1:15:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's a play about a need to leave affectation behind in, It's a play about a need to leave affectation behind in,
1:16:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and kind of get real. What comment did you have on that and was the light over-affected and kind of get real. What comment did you have on that and was the light over-affected
1:16:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and overdesigned? It didn't say as it left out talking about  lighting design. [NS] I guess the first thing I would say is that I would agree with that in and overdesigned? It didn't say as it left out talking about  lighting design. [NS] I guess the first thing I would say is that I would agree with that in
1:16:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

essence. I think that is a very valid criticism. essence. I think that is a very valid criticism.
1:16:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think it was an overdesigned production. Um I don't think it particularly served the play very well. Um I think it was an overdesigned production. Um I don't think it particularly served the play very well. Um
1:16:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I'm happy to be guilty by association. and I'm happy to be guilty by association.
1:16:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

if I did contribute to that. I wouldn't have thought so particularly. But as I keep saying if I did contribute to that. I wouldn't have thought so particularly. But as I keep saying
1:16:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you really... provided the set designer and the lighting designer are working the way they should, the way you really... provided the set designer and the lighting designer are working the way they should, the way
1:16:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I believe they should, you really shouldn't be able to tell the difference between those two things. I believe they should, you really shouldn't be able to tell the difference between those two things.
1:16:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So [MP] yep [NS] As as that is absolutely my recollection of that production um I So [MP] yep [NS] As as that is absolutely my recollection of that production um I
1:17:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I would acknowledge that criticism entirely. and I would acknowledge that criticism entirely.
1:17:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It .. speaking of criticism, how do you feel critical regard for your profession has changed? It .. speaking of criticism, how do you feel critical regard for your profession has changed?
1:17:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I suppose the regard of your colleagues too, since the time and I suppose the regard of your colleagues too, since the time
1:17:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when you first stepped out in the Independent in 1977. Appreciating the role of designers. when you first stepped out in the Independent in 1977. Appreciating the role of designers.
1:17:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The lighting design [Nick] I once said, The lighting design [Nick] I once said,
1:17:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think it was my first Helpmann Award, my acceptance speech was to dedicate the Award to the theatre critics of Australia I think it was my first Helpmann Award, my acceptance speech was to dedicate the Award to the theatre critics of Australia
1:17:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that Legionella men and women who are struck both deaf and dumb when it comes to the subject of design that Legionella men and women who are struck both deaf and dumb when it comes to the subject of design
1:17:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and particularly lighting design. I think the state of theatre criticism in Australia is parlous, I hasten to add. and particularly lighting design. I think the state of theatre criticism in Australia is parlous, I hasten to add.
1:17:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I'm not saying it's necessarily significantly better elsewhere, I'm not saying it's necessarily significantly better elsewhere,
1:18:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I, unlike so many people in my profession,  so many colleagues right across the board, I don't hate theatre but I, unlike so many people in my profession,  so many colleagues right across the board, I don't hate theatre
1:18:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

critics. I think they're...that they are there to perform a really important function. So when I get angry with critics critics. I think they're...that they are there to perform a really important function. So when I get angry with critics
1:18:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is not because they don't know how to, how to comment on lighting It is not because they don't know how to, how to comment on lighting
1:18:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is not because most of them don't know how to comment on directing either. Because that is is similarly misunderstood It is not because most of them don't know how to comment on directing either. Because that is is similarly misunderstood
1:18:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

skill. It's much easier to talk about a set. It's concrete, it's there before you. You can go skill. It's much easier to talk about a set. It's concrete, it's there before you. You can go
1:18:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yes I think this is appropriate. Or it's over-designed or its whatever. Much simpler. But if you, Yes I think this is appropriate. Or it's over-designed or its whatever. Much simpler. But if you,
1:18:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

as I do regard the role of the critic as an informing intermediary between the people who make BR as I do regard the role of the critic as an informing intermediary between the people who make BR
1:18:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the people who receive the art, then their principal role is that. They  are there to communicate and the people who receive the art, then their principal role is that. They  are there to communicate
1:18:60

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and are there to communicate in an informative way. and are there to communicate in an informative way.
1:19:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If I can't respect those people because I don't think they actually know enough about what they're talking about. If I can't respect those people because I don't think they actually know enough about what they're talking about.
1:19:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Then you've got a terrible disconnect. I'm obviously generalising massively here. There are Then you've got a terrible disconnect. I'm obviously generalising massively here. There are
1:19:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

many notable exceptions to what I'm saying.  [Martin] Maybe they're just not getting your artistic intention to be able to communicate it too. many notable exceptions to what I'm saying.  [Martin] Maybe they're just not getting your artistic intention to be able to communicate it too.
1:19:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Well because I don't think they know enough about it. so therefore you Well because I don't think they know enough about it. so therefore you
1:19:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

At worst, At worst,
1:19:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you have somebody who is set up as a pundit who is not in possession of the necessary information to fulfil that function. you have somebody who is set up as a pundit who is not in possession of the necessary information to fulfil that function.
1:19:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I think, given the dwindling interest in theatre that there is in the Australian public, And I think, given the dwindling interest in theatre that there is in the Australian public,
1:19:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

not that it's ever been great but it's not that it's ever been great but it's
1:19:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is getting smaller not bigger. All the more reason why you need people who can communicate between the makers It is getting smaller not bigger. All the more reason why you need people who can communicate between the makers
1:20:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the receivers or the perceivers of that art form. And those people need to be really bloody well informed. I would. and the receivers or the perceivers of that art form. And those people need to be really bloody well informed. I would.
1:20:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I would welcome more negative reviews. What I'm really bored with is the standard one line adjectives you know, in a dramatic I would welcome more negative reviews. What I'm really bored with is the standard one line adjectives you know, in a dramatic
1:20:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

stunning cyclical. stunning cyclical.
1:20:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

They can do better than that. [Martin] This relates also to what the set and They can do better than that. [Martin] This relates also to what the set and
1:20:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and costume designer Stephen Curtis has written about, which is that the design is not a decorator role. That presumably and costume designer Stephen Curtis has written about, which is that the design is not a decorator role. That presumably
1:20:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

there it once dismissed as. But a dramaturgical one. and that a critic needs to understand out about our design there it once dismissed as. But a dramaturgical one. and that a critic needs to understand out about our design
1:20:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and as you said a lighting designer that that is a key interpreter of meaning that role. So ...but and as you said a lighting designer that that is a key interpreter of meaning that role. So ...but
1:20:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Presumably they're  beginning to understand that about design and even lighting design. Presumably they're  beginning to understand that about design and even lighting design.
1:20:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I don't know. I don't see a huge amount of evidence of that.  [Martin] You don't see a shift? [Nick] Certainly a few critics have never forgotten that I was I don't know. I don't see a huge amount of evidence of that.  [Martin] You don't see a shift? [Nick] Certainly a few critics have never forgotten that I was
1:21:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

petty enough to say that on an occasion where the whole arts world of Australia was sitting in the auditorium petty enough to say that on an occasion where the whole arts world of Australia was sitting in the auditorium
1:21:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I chose my moment very carefully to make that point. The mere fact that there is that kind of pettiness is kind of I chose my moment very carefully to make that point. The mere fact that there is that kind of pettiness is kind of
1:21:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

gives you an idea of how adult that relationship is. In other words, gives you an idea of how adult that relationship is. In other words,
1:21:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

one public criticism and you know, you are sent to Coventry ...[Martin] it's a very sensitive world on all sides the theatre world isn't it? [Nick] yes but your know one public criticism and you know, you are sent to Coventry ...[Martin] it's a very sensitive world on all sides the theatre world isn't it? [Nick] yes but your know
1:21:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

critic being criticised back, I don't think is inappropriate [Martin] yes and I know there are very thin skins critic being criticised back, I don't think is inappropriate [Martin] yes and I know there are very thin skins
1:21:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in some critics. Another one described your 1999 production for the STC of Cyrano de in some critics. Another one described your 1999 production for the STC of Cyrano de
1:21:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Bergerac as magnificently lit, but Bergerac as magnificently lit, but
1:22:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I bring that up because it actually said that as a lighting designer you created a really good illusionist Georg but I bring that up because it actually said that as a lighting designer you created a really good illusionist Georg
1:22:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that surely is another important role for a designer. [Nick]  absolutely particularly in... that's a really good example because and that surely is another important role for a designer. [Nick]  absolutely particularly in... that's a really good example because
1:22:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you know  you always think of Cyrano as a big play seen through a proscenium arch. It's classic you know  you always think of Cyrano as a big play seen through a proscenium arch. It's classic
1:22:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to use the German term "looking box" -  Kukasterntheater. It's classic Prosc Arch territory to use the German term "looking box" -  Kukasterntheater. It's classic Prosc Arch territory
1:22:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

This was a very conscious decision to take a piece of work that is usually framed in that way This was a very conscious decision to take a piece of work that is usually framed in that way
1:22:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and put it in a much smaller, much more intimate space in Wharf One. That said,you want to have your cake and eat  it as and put it in a much smaller, much more intimate space in Wharf One. That said,you want to have your cake and eat  it as
1:22:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

well. well.
1:22:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You want there to be moments where that very small space suddenly does feel enormous, big. Big enough to embrace the You want there to be moments where that very small space suddenly does feel enormous, big. Big enough to embrace the
1:23:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

world of the War in the fourth act  of that production, for instance. world of the War in the fourth act  of that production, for instance.
1:23:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But for that matter even big enough for the last act in the convent. But for that matter even big enough for the last act in the convent.
1:23:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Martin] And how did you do it with light? [Nick] I.. we very much used the  empty shell of the wharf as the basic framework. [Martin] And how did you do it with light? [Nick] I.. we very much used the  empty shell of the wharf as the basic framework.
1:23:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so we didn't.. we didn't line the walls.  [Martin] Oh ?lovely? you went right back to the back wall. [Nick] Right back to the back wall so we didn't.. we didn't line the walls.  [Martin] Oh ?lovely? you went right back to the back wall. [Nick] Right back to the back wall
1:23:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and in fact we had the very very beautiful timber floor that is underneath the stage floor in the Wharf. We had that exposed and in fact we had the very very beautiful timber floor that is underneath the stage floor in the Wharf. We had that exposed
1:23:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then we spent quite a lot of the set budget on getting it sort of stripped back, because it's got layers and then we spent quite a lot of the set budget on getting it sort of stripped back, because it's got layers
1:23:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and layers of lanolin because it was. and layers of lanolin because it was.
1:23:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So that its it is a floor with history. So into that empty space, So that its it is a floor with history. So into that empty space,
1:23:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

we brought really just three big units that we used in different ways but, we brought really just three big units that we used in different ways but,
1:24:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so you ,,,I approached that by lighting the building a lot more than you normally might, in a theatre of that so you ,,,I approached that by lighting the building a lot more than you normally might, in a theatre of that
1:24:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

nature. So was a lot of light actually on the bare walls of the theatre going up into the roof of the theatre. Something I nature. So was a lot of light actually on the bare walls of the theatre going up into the roof of the theatre. Something I
1:24:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

explored further. explored further.
1:24:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

a couple years later with Mother Courage.  It's just kind of a couple years later with Mother Courage.  It's just kind of
1:24:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

changing the way an audience perceives the very familiar room. [Martin]  What do you do about keeping the focus on actors changing the way an audience perceives the very familiar room. [Martin]  What do you do about keeping the focus on actors
1:24:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

though and the focus on drama and psychology? though and the focus on drama and psychology?
1:24:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and perhaps the other things we've been speaking about? [Nick] They're the things you got it is simultaneously. [Martin] At the  same time?  [Nick] all the time, yep. so never one at the   and perhaps the other things we've been speaking about? [Nick] They're the things you got it is simultaneously. [Martin] At the  same time?  [Nick] all the time, yep. so never one at the  
1:24:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

cost of another. And where you do bias in one direction for one moment, you need to you careful cost of another. And where you do bias in one direction for one moment, you need to you careful
1:24:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but that's not too long. but that's not too long.
1:24:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You need to be very aware of what part of the play that is, in which you are doing that You need to be very aware of what part of the play that is, in which you are doing that
1:24:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and there's kind of the constant checklist...am I serving this moment of this play in the best possible way by doing this? and there's kind of the constant checklist...am I serving this moment of this play in the best possible way by doing this?
1:25:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or is this a bad decision? should I either not do this at all, or is this a bad decision? should I either not do this at all,
1:25:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or should I do it at some other point of the play? [Martin] I think you and Michael Scott-Mitchell have said elsewhere - will it last or should I do it at some other point of the play? [Martin] I think you and Michael Scott-Mitchell have said elsewhere - will it last
1:25:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

EN is it a kind of a bright spark ideas. EN is it a kind of a bright spark ideas.
1:25:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that's quite good at the moment but  wh.. is it sustainable as a thematic interpretation to the end of the play? that's quite good at the moment but  wh.. is it sustainable as a thematic interpretation to the end of the play?
1:25:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Nick] Yeah. And you have to keep doublechecking that. And you can only, once in done it [Nick] Yeah. And you have to keep doublechecking that. And you can only, once in done it
1:25:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you can only do that by setting in previews and learning to grow a set of you can only do that by setting in previews and learning to grow a set of
1:25:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

antennae that think, hope, that they can kind of absorb the way the audience members around you are perceiving it. antennae that think, hope, that they can kind of absorb the way the audience members around you are perceiving it.
1:25:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And are receiving it. And that's a really, really important part of the process. This is going And are receiving it. And that's a really, really important part of the process. This is going
1:25:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Sometimes you come out of a preview and you think "they just didn't get that at all". And its obviously easy to say "stupid fucking audience. Sometimes you come out of a preview and you think "they just didn't get that at all". And its obviously easy to say "stupid fucking audience.
1:26:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

They just didn't get it". They just didn't get it".
1:26:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But you'd be much better off questioning whether in fact it might be your fault that they didn't get it. [Martin] All through this period and through the 90's But you'd be much better off questioning whether in fact it might be your fault that they didn't get it. [Martin] All through this period and through the 90's
1:26:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 you have an expanding career overseas. You are working and teaching in Munich, You've ...by this stage with RSC in  you have an expanding career overseas. You are working and teaching in Munich, You've ...by this stage with RSC in
1:26:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

London, Director Michael Bogdanov in Wales.  But by  by 2000 London, Director Michael Bogdanov in Wales.  But by  by 2000
1:26:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You're the first lighting designer at the Salzburg Festival of Cosi fan Tutti. [Nick] No [Martin] No? First Australian I should say. [Nick] I was  You're the first lighting designer at the Salzburg Festival of Cosi fan Tutti. [Nick] No [Martin] No? First Australian I should say. [Nick] I was 
1:26:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to.  Probably ?? just ?? the first lighting designer suffers from the same problem that German Theatre does. to.  Probably ?? just ?? the first lighting designer suffers from the same problem that German Theatre does.
1:26:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's funny you should mention this now. I was to have done Cosi fan Tutti at the Salzburg Festival It's funny you should mention this now. I was to have done Cosi fan Tutti at the Salzburg Festival
1:26:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it was part of a .. "2-movie deal" with a German Director called ?Hans Nineferz?? with whom I did six months and it was part of a .. "2-movie deal" with a German Director called ?Hans Nineferz?? with whom I did six months
1:27:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

prior to when that would have been. Or a year prior to when that would have been prior to when that would have been. Or a year prior to when that would have been
1:27:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I did a production of Nabucco at the West Berlin Opera. The German Opera in West Berlin. And he but I did a production of Nabucco at the West Berlin Opera. The German Opera in West Berlin. And he
1:27:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I fell out so catastrophically that that became the only production my entire life. I have booked away from. and I fell out so catastrophically that that became the only production my entire life. I have booked away from.
1:27:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I said previously, I said previously,
1:27:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I offered to withdraw from Electra. But I just made the offer. In this case I left 4 days before opening night. [Martin] 4 Days I offered to withdraw from Electra. But I just made the offer. In this case I left 4 days before opening night. [Martin] 4 Days
1:27:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

before opening? so you had done the work. [Nick]  I was able to say: it's done; it's there.   before opening? so you had done the work. [Nick]  I was able to say: it's done; it's there.  
1:27:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I just I insisted on my name being taken off the show because I thought the production was so appalling. I just couldn't stand but I just I insisted on my name being taken off the show because I thought the production was so appalling. I just couldn't stand
1:27:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

by any aspect of it, by any aspect of it,
1:27:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Not just the lighting, just all round.  So in doing that, I naturally... I got a very nice letter from ?jarrad Mortier? Not just the lighting, just all round.  So in doing that, I naturally... I got a very nice letter from ?jarrad Mortier?
1:27:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

who was running the Salzburg Festival at the time saying: it's regrettable that... the news that you have left the production of Nabucco who was running the Salzburg Festival at the time saying: it's regrettable that... the news that you have left the production of Nabucco
1:27:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in Berlin is regrettable, but naturally that also means you have left the production in Salzburg. in Berlin is regrettable, but naturally that also means you have left the production in Salzburg.
1:28:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Funny, the reason I say Funny you should say this now is that I am about to do a production at the Salzburg Festival in a few Funny, the reason I say Funny you should say this now is that I am about to do a production at the Salzburg Festival in a few
1:28:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

months time. [Martin] Right okay um months time. [Martin] Right okay um
1:28:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then not long after this,  speaking of Verdi 's Nabucco, you did Macbeth again, Verdi's version and then not long after this,  speaking of Verdi 's Nabucco, you did Macbeth again, Verdi's version
1:28:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at least the Minnesota Opera. I bring this up 'cause you were the set designer as well,  and it seems a very at least the Minnesota Opera. I bring this up 'cause you were the set designer as well,  and it seems a very
1:28:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it seemed to me to read of a very... it was an abstraction in triangles, and  visual perspectives. And lit with lasers. it seemed to me to read of a very... it was an abstraction in triangles, and  visual perspectives. And lit with lasers.
1:28:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Nick] Partly. [Martin] Partly Could you talk a little about what as a lighting designer you bring to set design. [Nick] Partly. [Martin] Partly Could you talk a little about what as a lighting designer you bring to set design.
1:28:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Nick]If you ... [Martin] they're the same you'll say won't you? [Nick]If you ... [Martin] they're the same you'll say won't you?
1:28:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I ... well...  almost. If you, as a lighting designer, are constantly reshaping a space so you you shift the dynamic I ... well...  almost. If you, as a lighting designer, are constantly reshaping a space so you you shift the dynamic
1:29:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

within a space. That is... I think of that as a kind of malleable second skin of a set. The outer one is solid. within a space. That is... I think of that as a kind of malleable second skin of a set. The outer one is solid.
1:29:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's made of timber and canvas or steel or aluminium or whatever it is, and that's rigid. It's made of timber and canvas or steel or aluminium or whatever it is, and that's rigid.
1:29:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You can move that's obviously, You can move that's obviously,
1:29:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it's it's an immutable thing. All you can do is rearrange its bits. At any given point in time within that existing solid but it's it's an immutable thing. All you can do is rearrange its bits. At any given point in time within that existing solid
1:29:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

structure there's this bendable, malleable, flexible thing that's made of light. You can use that second skin in any number structure there's this bendable, malleable, flexible thing that's made of light. You can use that second skin in any number
1:29:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of ways. But it's its nearly always, at least in part, of ways. But it's its nearly always, at least in part,
1:29:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

shifting the spatial dynamic within the existing immovable scenery. shifting the spatial dynamic within the existing immovable scenery.
1:30:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And you do that to dramaturgical effect. You do that... you can change the power relationship between two people on And you do that to dramaturgical effect. You do that... you can change the power relationship between two people on
1:30:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the State. the State.
1:30:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You can do that, whether they're in a tiny weenie little stage downstairs Belvoir Street You can do that, whether they're in a tiny weenie little stage downstairs Belvoir Street
1:30:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or a great big mass of Opera Stage. Absolutely the same principles, only a difference of scale. I'm saying all that because in ...I'm attempting or a great big mass of Opera Stage. Absolutely the same principles, only a difference of scale. I'm saying all that because in ...I'm attempting
1:30:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to answer your question about the the difference. In a way that's what I'm doing all the time. to answer your question about the the difference. In a way that's what I'm doing all the time.
1:30:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Anyway, Anyway,
1:30:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when I'm lighting a show. [Martin] But wouldn't your preference as lighting designer be to have no set at all. And then you could have clear space. [Nick] No when I'm lighting a show. [Martin] But wouldn't your preference as lighting designer be to have no set at all. And then you could have clear space. [Nick] No
1:30:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Martin] You could make your skin out of light. [Nick] No No um I mean I love the challenge of lighting empty spaces. [Martin] You could make your skin out of light. [Nick] No No um I mean I love the challenge of lighting empty spaces.
1:30:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is... it is something I really love doing. But you've got to come back to what serves the show the best. It is... it is something I really love doing. But you've got to come back to what serves the show the best.
1:30:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And an empty stage is very often not what serves a show the best. [Martin] Tell me about lasers because they are always very striking in the And an empty stage is very often not what serves a show the best. [Martin] Tell me about lasers because they are always very striking in the
1:31:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

theatre and you get all these warnings about lasers and you go in theatre and you get all these warnings about lasers and you go in
1:31:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and ...they can easily dominate a stage and look very tricky. You did them you did them in and ...they can easily dominate a stage and look very tricky. You did them you did them in
1:31:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 the Minnesota Opera version of Macbeth as we've said. And also in Tannhäuser in '98 again with Michael Scott-Mitchell's  the Minnesota Opera version of Macbeth as we've said. And also in Tannhäuser in '98 again with Michael Scott-Mitchell's
1:31:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

set. I gather the production budget blew out because of the price of the lasers. [Nick] Did it?   [Martin] What's the problem set. I gather the production budget blew out because of the price of the lasers. [Nick] Did it?   [Martin] What's the problem
1:31:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Oh yes, didn't you know? Oh yes, didn't you know?
1:31:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Nick] I didn't worry my pretty little head about that at the time. [Martin] You have to be careful of lasers? [Nick] You do [Nick] I didn't worry my pretty little head about that at the time. [Martin] You have to be careful of lasers? [Nick] You do
1:31:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You have to be careful of them because... you've just said it. They are such eye-catching distracting things. You have to be careful of them because... you've just said it. They are such eye-catching distracting things.
1:31:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and as you can see, you've just summed up most of them. I had a brief period of experimenting with them, and as you can see, you've just summed up most of them. I had a brief period of experimenting with them,
1:31:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

partly because of what we're saying about light and scenery. They, you  know if you handle them in the right way, partly because of what we're saying about light and scenery. They, you  know if you handle them in the right way,
1:31:60

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and if you put enough smoke in the room, which unfortunately is a consequence of it, and if you put enough smoke in the room, which unfortunately is a consequence of it,
1:32:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You can kind of make walls of light with them. Which is absolutely what I did with the lasers in that Macbeth. You can kind of make walls of light with them. Which is absolutely what I did with the lasers in that Macbeth.
1:32:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

They were used only in the witches scene. They were used used within a triangularly framed space, They were used only in the witches scene. They were used used within a triangularly framed space,
1:32:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that was one single laser. That that shone that triangle back out into the auditorium so they, the witches existed within that was one single laser. That that shone that triangle back out into the auditorium so they, the witches existed within
1:32:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

this kind of endless cone of blue laser. It never moved. this kind of endless cone of blue laser. It never moved.
1:32:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I used it as though it were a glass box. And I think that's terribly important. The laser in Tannhauser never moved. I used it as though it were a glass box. And I think that's terribly important. The laser in Tannhauser never moved.
1:32:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was trying to shake. It was trying to shake.
1:32:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I had people from the Opera saying to me, I had people from the Opera saying to me,
1:32:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Oh you know that you can do other things with lasers? Yes. I do.  You go to a club Oh you know that you can do other things with lasers? Yes. I do.  You go to a club
1:32:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I will stay at the Opera. [laughter] I did use it. I used a moving laser only twice - once at the very end of Macbeth. and I will stay at the Opera. [laughter] I did use it. I used a moving laser only twice - once at the very end of Macbeth.
1:33:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I used if for Burnum Wood I used if for Burnum Wood
1:33:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that was this sort of long slow undulating spidery green sheet that started up on the roof, and  came down through the and that was this sort of long slow undulating spidery green sheet that started up on the roof, and  came down through the
1:33:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

audience to the floor. [Martin] Suggesting the forest moving to the castle? audience to the floor. [Martin] Suggesting the forest moving to the castle?
1:33:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yes And I used a, very difficult to use, red laser. Cause it's so hard to see Yes And I used a, very difficult to use, red laser. Cause it's so hard to see
1:33:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in a not dissimilar fashion at the very end of Parsifal in Adelaide. Where I also brought it down, in a not dissimilar fashion at the very end of Parsifal in Adelaide. Where I also brought it down,
1:33:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but that was so painstakingly set up as a static red beam of light, reinforced by a red spear always disappearing but that was so painstakingly set up as a static red beam of light, reinforced by a red spear always disappearing
1:33:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

up the same hole in the roof. It was the Grail. up the same hole in the roof. It was the Grail.
1:33:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If you like. The blood of Christ and at the very end, it descended. [Martin] How has lighting technology changed so that If you like. The blood of Christ and at the very end, it descended. [Martin] How has lighting technology changed so that
1:33:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

This change what an audience can see on stage This change what an audience can see on stage
1:33:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and what you can do with the lighting. [Nick] Oh it has changed in quantum leaps. In the 6-5-6-7 years. and what you can do with the lighting. [Nick] Oh it has changed in quantum leaps. In the 6-5-6-7 years.
1:34:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was away being a stage manager back in the late 70s, early 80s. I was away being a stage manager back in the late 70s, early 80s.
1:34:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

By the time I came back to lighting, lighting desks had gone from being manually controlled to being computerised. By the time I came back to lighting, lighting desks had gone from being manually controlled to being computerised.
1:34:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The light globes inside most theatre lamps had gone from being something the size of a small football to something the The light globes inside most theatre lamps had gone from being something the size of a small football to something the
1:34:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

size of a golf ball. Their colour temperature had increased massively. size of a golf ball. Their colour temperature had increased massively.
1:34:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But also so had the heat they put out. So therefore there was a whole new range of gel colours. But also so had the heat they put out. So therefore there was a whole new range of gel colours.
1:34:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

None of which behaved the same way that their  predecessors did. [Martin] A bit more more subtle colour palette? None of which behaved the same way that their  predecessors did. [Martin] A bit more more subtle colour palette?
1:34:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Ultimately, but not for that reason. They simply... old ones simply melted with that amount of heat. Ultimately, but not for that reason. They simply... old ones simply melted with that amount of heat.
1:34:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But you know that was in the space of ... generously only ten years - in the late 70s early 80s. But you know that was in the space of ... generously only ten years - in the late 70s early 80s.
1:34:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Martin] and you could get a hotter light? Hotter white light? [Nick] Colder. So whiter [Martin] and you could get a hotter light? Hotter white light? [Nick] Colder. So whiter
1:35:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Less yellow. Obviously the control side of it, with computerised lighting desks, has completely changed everything, Less yellow. Obviously the control side of it, with computerised lighting desks, has completely changed everything,
1:35:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And they went from, like so many things in their early days, they were actually very  cumbersome and klutzy and unsubtle And they went from, like so many things in their early days, they were actually very  cumbersome and klutzy and unsubtle
1:35:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you could see the step in every fade and you could see the step in every fade
1:35:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and we all missed the the immediate hands-on control of a good lighting operator. and we all missed the the immediate hands-on control of a good lighting operator.
1:35:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Nobody even thinks about that nowadays. Because of computerised desks. The control you have now with is so immensely more Nobody even thinks about that nowadays. Because of computerised desks. The control you have now with is so immensely more
1:35:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

complex. And fine-tuneable. It... obviously... they... [Martin] So you're not dependent on anybody doing a slow fade manually. [Nick] Nope. complex. And fine-tuneable. It... obviously... they... [Martin] So you're not dependent on anybody doing a slow fade manually. [Nick] Nope.
1:35:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You can be, if that's really important. I mean it You can be, if that's really important. I mean it
1:35:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It has slightly mechanised that aspect. Which is a shame. But as I say you can be driving a thousand It has slightly mechanised that aspect. Which is a shame. But as I say you can be driving a thousand
1:36:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 channels of lighting and have all of them start at the same time  channels of lighting and have all of them start at the same time
1:36:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and give every single one of them a different finishing point. Just as one instance of what you can do. So you can have a and give every single one of them a different finishing point. Just as one instance of what you can do. So you can have a
1:36:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

thousand channels going from a level to zero no. thousand channels going from a level to zero no.
1:36:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Two of them actually taking the same number of seconds. You can stagger Two of them actually taking the same number of seconds. You can stagger
1:36:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and control within that everything. You can virtually move the light continuously throughout an entire performance, and control within that everything. You can virtually move the light continuously throughout an entire performance,
1:36:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

without anyone in the audience without anyone in the audience
1:36:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and being aware of what you are doing. It's given us that much control. That's on the good side of the ledger. I'll pass over and being aware of what you are doing. It's given us that much control. That's on the good side of the ledger. I'll pass over
1:36:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

moving lights because we are.. you know theatres always learn to take things from other industries, moving lights because we are.. you know theatres always learn to take things from other industries,
1:36:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

both the humble, the humble PAR can both the humble, the humble PAR can
1:36:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the moving light, came from the world of rock'n'roll. We're very good at bowerbirding those things and the moving light, came from the world of rock'n'roll. We're very good at bowerbirding those things
1:36:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and slowly we tend to meld them to our own purposes and slowly we tend to meld them to our own purposes
1:37:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that's kind of happened with moving lights to a fair degree. Could be better but it's fine. and that's kind of happened with moving lights to a fair degree. Could be better but it's fine.
1:37:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And that's also given us a lot more flexibility. And that's also given us a lot more flexibility.
1:37:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The ...on the actively bad side of the ledger is the revolution in  LED technology. The ...on the actively bad side of the ledger is the revolution in  LED technology.
1:37:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Which is kind of shocking to me. I mean.. do you want me to talk about why? [Martin] Yes just briefly. [Nick] there's a thing called a colour Which is kind of shocking to me. I mean.. do you want me to talk about why? [Martin] Yes just briefly. [Nick] there's a thing called a colour
1:37:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

rendering index. It's a scale from nought to one hundred. A  hundred is a full spectrum light rendering index. It's a scale from nought to one hundred. A  hundred is a full spectrum light
1:37:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and is based on sunlight. Which to the human eye reveals the entire visible light spectrum and is based on sunlight. Which to the human eye reveals the entire visible light spectrum
1:37:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and LED rates, at best, a really expensive one, rates at around seventy on that scale. That in simplistic terms means that and LED rates, at best, a really expensive one, rates at around seventy on that scale. That in simplistic terms means that
1:37:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it stops you seeing thirty percent of the visible colour spectrum. it stops you seeing thirty percent of the visible colour spectrum.
1:37:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Now I think that is appalling. And I think there's far too many people embracing that shortcoming. And  Now I think that is appalling. And I think there's far too many people embracing that shortcoming. And 
1:38:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 I'm not talking only about in theatre  I'm not talking only about in theatre
1:38:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I don't want to spend my life living in a flat that's ... where I'm only seeing seventy percent of the visible colour and I don't want to spend my life living in a flat that's ... where I'm only seeing seventy percent of the visible colour
1:38:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

spectrum. That's shocking And we only see by the light that an object reflects back into our eyes. spectrum. That's shocking And we only see by the light that an object reflects back into our eyes.
1:38:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's why you see me only by that light reflecting off my face bank and your art, That's why you see me only by that light reflecting off my face bank and your art,
1:38:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So the light is key. It's everything.  [Martin] But this is reducing the colour palate you can use on stage, not expanding it. So the light is key. It's everything.  [Martin] But this is reducing the colour palate you can use on stage, not expanding it.
1:38:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I thought technology was doing. [Nick] No. Absolutely correct. [Martin] This  LED argument I thought technology was doing. [Nick] No. Absolutely correct. [Martin] This  LED argument
1:38:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And one of the very critical bits of that missing thirty percent is the section of the spectrum that is most And one of the very critical bits of that missing thirty percent is the section of the spectrum that is most
1:38:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

sympathetic to skintones. So for lighting actors' faces, instead of relying on the bit of the visible spectrum that will sympathetic to skintones. So for lighting actors' faces, instead of relying on the bit of the visible spectrum that will
1:38:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

find a flesh tone and reflect that back in your eye, find a flesh tone and reflect that back in your eye,
1:38:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you have to resort to literally turning backlight into a flesh toned colour in order to reveal the face, [martin] Oh [Nick] Now  I'm you have to resort to literally turning backlight into a flesh toned colour in order to reveal the face, [martin] Oh [Nick] Now  I'm
1:39:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

putting this in its most simplistic terms on purpose, putting this in its most simplistic terms on purpose,
1:39:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but essentially that is the process. So that that I think is a real problem. [Martin] I wanted to segue there about the use of a but essentially that is the process. So that that I think is a real problem. [Martin] I wanted to segue there about the use of a
1:39:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

colour palette from technology to your capacity to to suggest place with it. And to suggest Australia. colour palette from technology to your capacity to to suggest place with it. And to suggest Australia.
1:39:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and thinking of your 2001 Opera Australia production of Elixir of Love, and thinking of your 2001 Opera Australia production of Elixir of Love,
1:39:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which was taken from Italy to outback Australia. Lots of undulating ochre hills, and corrugated iron and a big blue sky which was taken from Italy to outback Australia. Lots of undulating ochre hills, and corrugated iron and a big blue sky
1:39:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

again with designer Michael Scott-Mitchell again with designer Michael Scott-Mitchell
1:39:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and Director Phillips. Was that a palette you consciously looked for to represent Australia? [Nick] yeah and Director Phillips. Was that a palette you consciously looked for to represent Australia? [Nick] yeah
1:40:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I mean the ... there are 2 essential elements to that set design. I mean the ... there are 2 essential elements to that set design.
1:40:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

One is that everything is made of corrugated iron. One is that everything is made of corrugated iron.
1:40:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And its painted. Everything to do with the painting of that corrugated iron is is kind of ...stolen from And its painted. Everything to do with the painting of that corrugated iron is is kind of ...stolen from
1:40:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or influenced by a couple of ... a very small range of iconic Australian painters Nolan, Fred Williams, Boyd in particular. or influenced by a couple of ... a very small range of iconic Australian painters Nolan, Fred Williams, Boyd in particular.
1:40:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it's exaggerated. Like it's a big silly old comedy. So it is incredibly bright. I mean And it's exaggerated. Like it's a big silly old comedy. So it is incredibly bright. I mean
1:40:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 I doubt whether the Opera Theatre, given the history of doom  I doubt whether the Opera Theatre, given the history of doom
1:40:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and gloom, Opera lighting has ever seen such bright show in it. and gloom, Opera lighting has ever seen such bright show in it.
1:40:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think the lights on the rest of Bennelong Point dim every time the first queue in that show comes up.  But the I think the lights on the rest of Bennelong Point dim every time the first queue in that show comes up.  But the
1:40:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

colour palate is... the colour palette I use is drawn exactly from those painters colour palate is... the colour palette I use is drawn exactly from those painters
1:41:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and from the painting of those pieces of scenery. So in time-honoured tradition. and from the painting of those pieces of scenery. So in time-honoured tradition.
1:41:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The use though the best sympathetic tone of the same colour as the painting that allows you to exploit the greatest The use though the best sympathetic tone of the same colour as the painting that allows you to exploit the greatest
1:41:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

range of colours with in colour, range of colours with in colour,
1:41:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So the upper part of that set which is all blue sky has, in terms of the pigment that it's painted with, has, let's say, six So the upper part of that set which is all blue sky has, in terms of the pigment that it's painted with, has, let's say, six
1:41:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

different blue tones within it and some white. So it's lit with four different kinds of blue light. different blue tones within it and some white. So it's lit with four different kinds of blue light.
1:41:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The lightest of which is such a pale blue that it will cause the whites to correct The lightest of which is such a pale blue that it will cause the whites to correct
1:41:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and become white even if I'm using very heavy dark blue. and become white even if I'm using very heavy dark blue.
1:41:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

over the rest of it. It's kind of a quaintly old-fashioned concept nowadays but .. it's about knowing exactly over the rest of it. It's kind of a quaintly old-fashioned concept nowadays but .. it's about knowing exactly
1:42:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it's about spending a lot of time in the paint shop when that set is painted. and it's about spending a lot of time in the paint shop when that set is painted.
1:42:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And getting very involved in exactly which tones are applied in which order. I come back to watching the glazes on my And getting very involved in exactly which tones are applied in which order. I come back to watching the glazes on my
1:42:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

brother 's paintings as a child. You're mad if you're not in there and all over that process in the paint shop brother 's paintings as a child. You're mad if you're not in there and all over that process in the paint shop
1:42:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

because that that kind does half the job for you. because that that kind does half the job for you.
1:42:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That gives you the means to get the greatest range of variety out of the product That gives you the means to get the greatest range of variety out of the product
1:42:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when it's sitting on stage. Without turning it into something that it isn't. [Martin] Yes And the technology with which when it's sitting on stage. Without turning it into something that it isn't. [Martin] Yes And the technology with which
1:42:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

like that colour to bring Ocala fellow loan. like that colour to bring Ocala fellow loan.
1:42:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In lighting Australia you in 2003 lit Bangara Dance Theatre's Bush. And In lighting Australia you in 2003 lit Bangara Dance Theatre's Bush. And
1:42:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you've lit many Bangara, well some Bangara productions since. And very  notable ones. For Bush, you've lit many Bangara, well some Bangara productions since. And very  notable ones. For Bush,
1:42:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you won the Helpmann Award.  What approach do you did you do you have to take to lighting dances? [Nick] Given my you won the Helpmann Award.  What approach do you did you do you have to take to lighting dances? [Nick] Given my
1:43:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

aforementioned predilection towards side light. A very similar one to how I light theatre. aforementioned predilection towards side light. A very similar one to how I light theatre.
1:43:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Ironically, the very first dance. Ironically, the very first dance.
1:43:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I ...I've lit very little dance and it's not a theatre form that particularly draws me. But  the very first dance pieces  I ...I've lit very little dance and it's not a theatre form that particularly draws me. But  the very first dance pieces 
1:43:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I lit were for a small company in Brisbane called Expressions.  [Martin] Quite a few in Brisbane in the 80s? I lit were for a small company in Brisbane called Expressions.  [Martin] Quite a few in Brisbane in the 80s?
1:43:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and partly because it was in the Studio Theatre QPAC and partly because it was in the Studio Theatre QPAC
1:43:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and has no... which has no wings being a studio Theatre. I kind of ironically, and has no... which has no wings being a studio Theatre. I kind of ironically,
1:43:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I explored lighting dance with outside like their home. By the time I then did do did Bush. I explored lighting dance with outside like their home. By the time I then did do did Bush.
1:43:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The first show with Bangara, I sort of thought, No this is a bit silly. And The first show with Bangara, I sort of thought, No this is a bit silly. And
1:43:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

There is also very simply the the added difficulty presented by lighting skin that is anything other than There is also very simply the the added difficulty presented by lighting skin that is anything other than
1:44:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

reasonably white. reasonably white.
1:44:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's like ...you need to be very careful about what colour you use the deeper the skin tone. And good old full spectrum   It's like ...you need to be very careful about what colour you use the deeper the skin tone. And good old full spectrum  
1:44:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

From white light is actually the best way to do that, From white light is actually the best way to do that,
1:44:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It still depends massively... the single most important decision is not which light you use or which colour it's in. It still depends massively... the single most important decision is not which light you use or which colour it's in.
1:44:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's where It's where
1:44:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you put the light - relative to the stage and relative  to a performer. And for all of those reasons, you put the light - relative to the stage and relative  to a performer. And for all of those reasons,
1:44:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

plus the fact that Bush was unlike those early works of expressions, Bush was such a... it was such a visual piece... the shows  plus the fact that Bush was unlike those early works of expressions, Bush was such a... it was such a visual piece... the shows 
1:44:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that I've done with Stephen at Bangara - Stephen Page - I'm doing one right now -  [Martin] Bennelong? [Nick] Bennelong. That kind of big   that I've done with Stephen at Bangara - Stephen Page - I'm doing one right now -  [Martin] Bennelong? [Nick] Bennelong. That kind of big  
1:45:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

picture visual element is a hugely important part of those shows. And you, picture visual element is a hugely important part of those shows. And you,
1:45:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you would undervalue that at yoru peril. I don't think that would serve the work very well. [Martin] Why is Bangara "Big Picture"? Because it's a dance theatre you would undervalue that at yoru peril. I don't think that would serve the work very well. [Martin] Why is Bangara "Big Picture"? Because it's a dance theatre
1:45:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 storytelling? [Nick] Because it's so much about the place and its inhabitants.  storytelling? [Nick] Because it's so much about the place and its inhabitants.
1:45:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Martin] Yep  [Nick]  But by extension [Martin] But it's the place is strong[?] [Nick] And its the story telling, particularly in in this work, Bennelong [Martin] Yep  [Nick]  But by extension [Martin] But it's the place is strong[?] [Nick] And its the story telling, particularly in in this work, Bennelong
1:45:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it's predecessor ?Patagirang?  three years ago. They're a bit of a departure for Stephen and it's predecessor ?Patagirang?  three years ago. They're a bit of a departure for Stephen
1:45:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that they are based on very real people and that they are based on very real people
1:45:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and they are a little bit more storyline based. So you do have to be wary of making sure that you don't leave the audience behind. and they are a little bit more storyline based. So you do have to be wary of making sure that you don't leave the audience behind.
1:45:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I won't say they have a plot but they have a very clear dramatic structure. [Martin] And lighting has a point to play I won't say they have a plot but they have a very clear dramatic structure. [Martin] And lighting has a point to play
1:45:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in that storytelling thread? [Nick] Yep  in that storytelling thread? [Nick] Yep 
1:46:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and with Jacob Nash's sets,  Jennifer Irwin's costumes... she's been doing costurmes  with Bangara for [Nick] Yonks [Martin] almost since the beginning and with Jacob Nash's sets,  Jennifer Irwin's costumes... she's been doing costurmes  with Bangara for [Nick] Yonks [Martin] almost since the beginning
1:46:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You're dealing with very vivid colours even before you turn the lights on. [Nick] Yeah although  the set for Patagorang had this You're dealing with very vivid colours even before you turn the lights on. [Nick] Yeah although  the set for Patagorang had this
1:46:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

beautiful huge back wall that you could read as a sandstone cliff. That had surprisingly little colour beautiful huge back wall that you could read as a sandstone cliff. That had surprisingly little colour
1:46:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in it. I mean I used amounts of colour on those shows that I normally would not go anywhere near in it. I mean I used amounts of colour on those shows that I normally would not go anywhere near
1:46:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it... that became a fabulous kind of... not blank and it... that became a fabulous kind of... not blank
1:46:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but a fabulously flexible canvas for taking all kinds of colour and qualities of light but a fabulously flexible canvas for taking all kinds of colour and qualities of light
1:46:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then the the other set pieces that were introduced into the space in front of that  wall were all primary red. so it's a   and then the the other set pieces that were introduced into the space in front of that  wall were all primary red. so it's a  
1:47:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

fantastic contrast. And that inside an otherwise black box. [Martin] Yes it's brilliant fantastic contrast. And that inside an otherwise black box. [Martin] Yes it's brilliant
1:47:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and yet you mentioned that the challenge of lighting darker bodies. Is there anything else in your and yet you mentioned that the challenge of lighting darker bodies. Is there anything else in your
1:47:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

approach or or artistry in lighting indigenous dancers approach or or artistry in lighting indigenous dancers
1:47:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and their stories? And how you go about the job? [Nick] In terms of the practical, it is about being very careful about colour and their stories? And how you go about the job? [Nick] In terms of the practical, it is about being very careful about colour
1:47:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and choosing the (I didn't really finish saying this properly before) choosing the the optimum light angle and choosing the (I didn't really finish saying this properly before) choosing the the optimum light angle
1:47:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that is "low cross light". That is that kind of light that dancers often, nearly always are lit with.  So I  haven't and that is "low cross light". That is that kind of light that dancers often, nearly always are lit with.  So I  haven't
1:47:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

chosen to reinvent that wheel. That to the pragmatic... to the sort of chosen to reinvent that wheel. That to the pragmatic... to the sort of
1:47:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The other end of it, I'm about the whitest thing The other end of it, I'm about the whitest thing
1:47:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you can imagine in that context. I mean I feel so white in the world of Bangara. [Martin] Ayran in fact    you can imagine in that context. I mean I feel so white in the world of Bangara. [Martin] Ayran in fact   
1:48:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Nick] Aryan In fact! In fact. But it's kind of actually, lest you needed it [Nick] Aryan In fact! In fact. But it's kind of actually, lest you needed it
1:48:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's a really useful reminder of how strongly you can feel to be 'the other'. It's kind of quite useful  reference point to be the It's a really useful reminder of how strongly you can feel to be 'the other'. It's kind of quite useful  reference point to be the
1:48:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 boot on the other foot. I'm saying that  boot on the other foot. I'm saying that
1:48:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because the other really important thing to me about the work I do with them is making sure that I genuinely know the Because the other really important thing to me about the work I do with them is making sure that I genuinely know the
1:48:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

story, in all its complexity. story, in all its complexity.
1:48:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And that complexity is nearly always its historical background. Which being as white as I am, I need to be told. I don't And that complexity is nearly always its historical background. Which being as white as I am, I need to be told. I don't
1:48:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

share that cultural upbringing obviously. [Martin] But do you still have the same artistic freedom to play with the story in the lighting? share that cultural upbringing obviously. [Martin] But do you still have the same artistic freedom to play with the story in the lighting?
1:48:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Absolutely but a) you need to do that out of respect anyway, Absolutely but a) you need to do that out of respect anyway,
1:48:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but b) you wouldn't be doing your job very well as a theatre maker. but b) you wouldn't be doing your job very well as a theatre maker.
1:49:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If you weren't  in full If you weren't  in full
1:49:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

if you weren't fully cognisant of every element that is behind that story. So if it's a real person like a patagorang if you weren't fully cognisant of every element that is behind that story. So if it's a real person like a patagorang
1:49:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or or a Bennelong, that's relatively simple. You do your historical homework and research, and you, in her case, or or a Bennelong, that's relatively simple. You do your historical homework and research, and you, in her case,
1:49:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you also read up on Dawes et cetera. But it's it's about much more than that. you also read up on Dawes et cetera. But it's it's about much more than that.
1:49:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's its where, it's where the movement library lexicon that Stephen draws on effortlessly , where that comes from. What It's its where, it's where the movement library lexicon that Stephen draws on effortlessly , where that comes from. What
1:49:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

significance. significance.
1:49:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is and it goes way beyond "this is the emu dance"  and "this is the kangaroo dance". Its it's amazing to  watch him It is and it goes way beyond "this is the emu dance"  and "this is the kangaroo dance". Its it's amazing to  watch him
1:49:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but salient, to watch him just kind of draw movements out of what seems to be a song book of movements. but salient, to watch him just kind of draw movements out of what seems to be a song book of movements.
1:49:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and have a room full of dancers who all immediately know what it is. And it is that common cultural heritage that...which, and have a room full of dancers who all immediately know what it is. And it is that common cultural heritage that...which,
1:49:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

as I don't share it, I need to understand it. [Martin] Thank you. You mentioned, we were talking about  the drive   as I don't share it, I need to understand it. [Martin] Thank you. You mentioned, we were talking about  the drive  
1:50:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the lighting designer as storyteller, um and in this sense, the lighting designer as storyteller, um and in this sense,
1:50:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

just as you just have. Do you have any comment to the MTC adaptation of.. by director Simon Phillips of the just as you just have. Do you have any comment to the MTC adaptation of.. by director Simon Phillips of the
1:50:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

multi-scened Great Expectations that were done in Melbourne, multi-scened Great Expectations that were done in Melbourne,
1:50:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was interested to read ... how um your lighting a lot of praise for that. Often startling I was interested to read ... how um your lighting a lot of praise for that. Often startling
1:50:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

lighting changes to make rapid shifts in place and time and mood. With characters illuminated in isolation, lighting changes to make rapid shifts in place and time and mood. With characters illuminated in isolation,
1:50:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

like figments of imagination, all the past. Yeah you were pretty good. How did you do all that? [Nick] That  was really hard work.  like figments of imagination, all the past. Yeah you were pretty good. How did you do all that? [Nick] That  was really hard work. 
1:50:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Well it shows so I'm glad.  I should get reviews from you. Well it shows so I'm glad.  I should get reviews from you.
1:50:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was very, very complex. It was kind of just pre the use of moving lights in straight theatre. It was very, very complex. It was kind of just pre the use of moving lights in straight theatre.
1:51:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So it was done with a ridiculously large number of lights and a ridiculously large number of cues. So it was done with a ridiculously large number of lights and a ridiculously large number of cues.
1:51:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I did most of that ...I plotted  I did most of that ...I plotted 
1:51:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

most of that show between eleven o'clock at night five o'clock in the morning because the whole thing was such a most of that show between eleven o'clock at night five o'clock in the morning because the whole thing was such a
1:51:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

massive undertaking massive undertaking
1:51:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and as usual it was done on the perfectly normal schedule for a Melbourne Theatre company show, which is you know, is barely long enough for and as usual it was done on the perfectly normal schedule for a Melbourne Theatre company show, which is you know, is barely long enough for
1:51:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

simple shows, let alone something that complex simple shows, let alone something that complex
1:51:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and massively long. Our first preview went to nearly midnight. It was ridiculous. [Martin] And so many scenes, but all in different places and massively long. Our first preview went to nearly midnight. It was ridiculous. [Martin] And so many scenes, but all in different places
1:51:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so you had to plot different scenes? [Martin] Yup and flipping between ...so okay, so you had to plot different scenes? [Martin] Yup and flipping between ...so okay,
1:51:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

there is another example of signposts for an audience. Flicks between um I'll say probably only five locations, there is another example of signposts for an audience. Flicks between um I'll say probably only five locations,
1:51:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

from memory that you needed to know - we're back here. Same thing about a visual signpost or a marker. from memory that you needed to know - we're back here. Same thing about a visual signpost or a marker.
1:52:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

This is where this scene is taking place. Between that at one extreme and a lot of scenes that happen somewhere This is where this scene is taking place. Between that at one extreme and a lot of scenes that happen somewhere
1:52:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it doesn't really matter where that place is. [Martin] Yes [Nick] But it's very important. and it doesn't really matter where that place is. [Martin] Yes [Nick] But it's very important.
1:52:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

what that place feels like. It needs to feel outside, and cold and uncomfortable or it needs to feel inside, warm what that place feels like. It needs to feel outside, and cold and uncomfortable or it needs to feel inside, warm
1:52:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and cosy. The two simplistic streams. Then another whole language of narration. Narration by an individual, narration by a and cosy. The two simplistic streams. Then another whole language of narration. Narration by an individual, narration by a
1:52:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

series of individuals but still speaking, still narrating from their own series of individuals but still speaking, still narrating from their own
1:52:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If you like, personal perspective If you like, personal perspective
1:52:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then all of those narrators being combined into a kind of a Greek chorus, So there's a whole lot of stylistic distinctions and then all of those narrators being combined into a kind of a Greek chorus, So there's a whole lot of stylistic distinctions
1:52:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that you have to make. And again it is all simply in the interests of making sure you never have the audience sitting there that you have to make. And again it is all simply in the interests of making sure you never have the audience sitting there
1:52:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

going "Hang on are you talking to me as that character you you were just playing in the previous scene going "Hang on are you talking to me as that character you you were just playing in the previous scene
1:53:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or are you now talking to me as a neutral narrator?" You don't want people thinking that. As they are missing the show. while they're trying or are you now talking to me as a neutral narrator?" You don't want people thinking that. As they are missing the show. while they're trying
1:53:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to figure that out. It's just misleading and confusing. So it is sometimes about resorting to very unsubtle signposting. to figure that out. It's just misleading and confusing. So it is sometimes about resorting to very unsubtle signposting.
1:53:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But only to that end. [Martin] You are really supporting actors who are making the shifts in playing many roles [Nick] Yeah but But only to that end. [Martin] You are really supporting actors who are making the shifts in playing many roles [Nick] Yeah but
1:53:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 you also just doing your level best to keep the communication channel with the audience as open as possible.  you also just doing your level best to keep the communication channel with the audience as open as possible.
1:53:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Not putting barriers in their way, but removing them. [Martin] Nothing could be as long as The Ring. Not putting barriers in their way, but removing them. [Martin] Nothing could be as long as The Ring.
1:53:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

No, [Martin] it is sixteen and a half hours I think of music No, [Martin] it is sixteen and a half hours I think of music
1:53:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and Elke Neidhardt came to you wanting your lighting for Wagner 's great epic, for the first full Australian and Elke Neidhardt came to you wanting your lighting for Wagner 's great epic, for the first full Australian
1:53:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

production to be staged by the country 's smallest opera company. production to be staged by the country 's smallest opera company.
1:53:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The South Australian State Opera in 2004. What did you think... why did  The South Australian State Opera in 2004. What did you think... why did 
1:53:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

she want you to do it, do you think? [Nick] Elke and I um first met when I ... she  she want you to do it, do you think? [Nick] Elke and I um first met when I ... she 
1:54:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

She was redirecting, or restaging George Ogilvie 's Don Giovanni at Opera Australia in '79 She was redirecting, or restaging George Ogilvie 's Don Giovanni at Opera Australia in '79
1:54:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which was my first show there. So there I was in this very strange world of people who turned up to rehearsals which was my first show there. So there I was in this very strange world of people who turned up to rehearsals
1:54:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and high heels and folk oats in the middle of like they just come from the local bank, and high heels and folk oats in the middle of like they just come from the local bank,
1:54:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

where they were that the branch manager. Which, all which sounds silly, where they were that the branch manager. Which, all which sounds silly,
1:54:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it was a bit of a shock to the system to somebody who is used to actors and their ways and there looks. but it was a bit of a shock to the system to somebody who is used to actors and their ways and there looks.
1:54:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I found myself in a rehearsal room with Joan Sutherland, conducted by Richard Bonynge. Don Giovanni  And I found myself in a rehearsal room with Joan Sutherland, conducted by Richard Bonynge. Don Giovanni 
1:54:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

played by James Morris who at that stage was very much a world class baritone. Greta Elkins Clifford Grant, It was a played by James Morris who at that stage was very much a world class baritone. Greta Elkins Clifford Grant, It was a
1:54:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

kind of an all-star cast.  kind of an all-star cast. 
1:54:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I had four days to learn the show before it went to Melbourne.  It was this funny season in Melbourne in the and I had four days to learn the show before it went to Melbourne.  It was this funny season in Melbourne in the
1:55:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

middle of the Sydney season. So and Elke was redirecting it middle of the Sydney season. So and Elke was redirecting it
1:55:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and we just, apart from the fact we are both German, we just got on really well, right from the word go.  And became firm  and we just, apart from the fact we are both German, we just got on really well, right from the word go.  And became firm 
1:55:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

friends.  friends. 
1:55:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I did all of Elke's, I think I am right in saying all, of Elke's own productions in Australia. And I did all of Elke's, I think I am right in saying all, of Elke's own productions in Australia.
1:55:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Once she left Opera Australian and went freelance which culminated in The Ring. [Martin] It was a team. Once she left Opera Australian and went freelance which culminated in The Ring. [Martin] It was a team.
1:55:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Of course, with a costume designer ... Steven Curtis Of course, with a costume designer ... Steven Curtis
1:55:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and your old colleague Michael Scott-Mitchell doing the set, and um and your old colleague Michael Scott-Mitchell doing the set, and um
1:55:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I gather you all locked yourselves away I gather you all locked yourselves away
1:55:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

up in the Blue Mountains, you turned your mobiles off.  Three years earlier. [Nick] Five years earlier. [Martin] To work out what you were going  up in the Blue Mountains, you turned your mobiles off.  Three years earlier. [Nick] Five years earlier. [Martin] To work out what you were going 
1:55:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to do with it. What.. your experience of Wagner is ... is ambiguous to do with it. What.. your experience of Wagner is ... is ambiguous
1:56:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but you came to it. You were accredited as an associate set designer.  What did that mean in the team dynamic? but you came to it. You were accredited as an associate set designer.  What did that mean in the team dynamic?
1:56:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Um actually nothing, because Michael and I Um actually nothing, because Michael and I
1:56:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 have just, as I've said, have always work like that. That was that was actually at Michael saying,  have just, as I've said, have always work like that. That was that was actually at Michael saying,
1:56:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think it's ridiculous that you're not credited with doing all of that. So I think it's ridiculous that you're not credited with doing all of that. So
1:56:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it was just a very generous gesture on his part.  I mean the other , to just go back to my ambivalent feelings about Wagner it was just a very generous gesture on his part.  I mean the other , to just go back to my ambivalent feelings about Wagner
1:56:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the reason I keep doing them, 'cause I've done most of them now,  is the challenge of staging them is irresistible. So even though and the reason I keep doing them, 'cause I've done most of them now,  is the challenge of staging them is irresistible. So even though
1:56:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

like when I do an Opera, I learn the music like when I do an Opera, I learn the music
1:56:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I mean I learn it. So to learn sixteen and a half hours of what I find fairly repugnant music, is that was a and I mean I learn it. So to learn sixteen and a half hours of what I find fairly repugnant music, is that was a
1:57:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

really big decision for me to do that. really big decision for me to do that.
1:57:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's one thing doing...[Martin]  What do you do to learn it? What does that mean? [Nick] I sit down with a recording and the score It's one thing doing...[Martin]  What do you do to learn it? What does that mean? [Nick] I sit down with a recording and the score
1:57:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I listen to it over and over and over and over and over again. Just as I read a play over and over and over and I listen to it over and over and over and over and over again. Just as I read a play over and over and over
1:57:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and over and over again. Operas are quicker to learn than plays because music always helps you as a memory guide and over and over again. Operas are quicker to learn than plays because music always helps you as a memory guide
1:57:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but I don't just listen to it once and that's that. No. So that was a big decision but  it but I don't just listen to it once and that's that. No. So that was a big decision but  it
1:57:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is compensated for, by the just the sheer challenge of staging those works. One of the reasons it took us so long It is compensated for, by the just the sheer challenge of staging those works. One of the reasons it took us so long
1:57:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to work through The Ring. Camp Wagner lasted for a week at the house to work through The Ring. Camp Wagner lasted for a week at the house
1:57:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

We rented up the Blue Mountains arms We rented up the Blue Mountains arms
1:57:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and at the end of that week we had got five minutes into the first opera. Five minutes out of 16 and 1/2  hours. Four and at the end of that week we had got five minutes into the first opera. Five minutes out of 16 and 1/2  hours. Four
1:58:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of those five minutes were what we were going to do during the prelude to Rheingold. So it's  of those five minutes were what we were going to do during the prelude to Rheingold. So it's 
1:58:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

not even addressing the very first aged action haven't was caught. not even addressing the very first aged action haven't was caught.
1:58:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but of course that that time was... staking out the whole kind of... beginning to come to grips with the whole thing like but of course that that time was... staking out the whole kind of... beginning to come to grips with the whole thing like
1:58:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

what's the framework? what's the framework?
1:58:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or was this  is going to be seen within ... the same question why are we doing that maybe not millions but several thousandth Ring Cycle or was this  is going to be seen within ... the same question why are we doing that maybe not millions but several thousandth Ring Cycle
1:58:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and why we doing it in Adelaide, And  all of those things. So  it takes a long long time to to work all of that out. [Martin] That and why we doing it in Adelaide, And  all of those things. So  it takes a long long time to to work all of that out. [Martin] That
1:58:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

production was praised for its, I saw it,  its clarity of story telling, its grounded characterisations. production was praised for its, I saw it,  its clarity of story telling, its grounded characterisations.
1:58:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Its wit and its beauty. It was sort of there was an Australian kind of um directness about it. It was stripped back. Its wit and its beauty. It was sort of there was an Australian kind of um directness about it. It was stripped back.
1:58:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I seem to remember a stage that was not heavily setted and  I seem to remember a stage that was not heavily setted and 
1:59:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I remember very striking lighting. What what what was your vision of the lighting for it? [Nick]  Very importantly that it and I remember very striking lighting. What what what was your vision of the lighting for it? [Nick]  Very importantly that it
1:59:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

... the space that we ended up with  ... the space that we ended up with 
1:59:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and we did end up with an almost through-going framing space, knowing that into that space, and we did end up with an almost through-going framing space, knowing that into that space,
1:59:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

we were going to be introducing massive set pieces the  we were going to be introducing massive set pieces the 
1:59:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The set for what we referred to Wotan's offices, is this massive ?raked? lightbox ?four? covered in a completely cle... clear The set for what we referred to Wotan's offices, is this massive ?raked? lightbox ?four? covered in a completely cle... clear
1:59:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

acrylic sculptures of statue of David sinking to various degrees into the floor acrylic sculptures of statue of David sinking to various degrees into the floor
1:59:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that's just two scenes. The Drago's hand that was a squillion dollars worth of hydraulics and that's just two scenes. The Drago's hand that was a squillion dollars worth of hydraulics
1:59:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and pneumatics that could lift the singer up on the palm of his hand. I mean those kind of huge.. [Martin] A bit like if  and pneumatics that could lift the singer up on the palm of his hand. I mean those kind of huge.. [Martin] A bit like if 
2:00:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Michael Scott Mitchell had put Cathy Freeman on, lifting her up for the Olympics. [Nick] That was more akin to Michael Scott Mitchell had put Cathy Freeman on, lifting her up for the Olympics. [Nick] That was more akin to
2:00:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Brunnhilde's lift. [Martin] Oh right. Ok. [Nick] The same company did the flame for both in fact  Brunnhilde's lift. [Martin] Oh right. Ok. [Nick] The same company did the flame for both in fact 
2:00:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but so you've got all these massive big set pieces. but so you've got all these massive big set pieces.
2:00:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It.. the kind of big picture that we never lost sight of was, there has to be relief from that. You mustn't... if you lose sight It.. the kind of big picture that we never lost sight of was, there has to be relief from that. You mustn't... if you lose sight
2:00:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

whatever I may think of it, if you if you lose sight of the human, even though they're gods whatever I may think of it, if you if you lose sight of the human, even though they're gods
2:00:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The human stories that are being told over that amount of time. The human stories that are being told over that amount of time.
2:00:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If you subsume those under masses of fabulous looking visuals, If you subsume those under masses of fabulous looking visuals,
2:00:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

then you you've just lost the core of the whole thing. You've got... it. then you you've just lost the core of the whole thing. You've got... it.
2:00:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it has no guts any more. [Martin] Because you lit the gods quite harshly, didn't you. Weren't you... [Nick] Vari...varyingly it has no guts any more. [Martin] Because you lit the gods quite harshly, didn't you. Weren't you... [Nick] Vari...varyingly
2:01:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but we always made sure we came back to an empty stag. That was just a permeable box framework with no scenery in it.  but we always made sure we came back to an empty stag. That was just a permeable box framework with no scenery in it. 
2:01:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and just lots of light. And that light in those interlude sections even more so than usual. and just lots of light. And that light in those interlude sections even more so than usual.
2:01:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

All about the people. The focus being absolutely on the singers and not on what the box looked like. [Martin] And characters. All about the people. The focus being absolutely on the singers and not on what the box looked like. [Martin] And characters.
2:01:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The other characters were really well lit and explained by the lighting The other characters were really well lit and explained by the lighting
2:01:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the storytelling was was crucially clear. And so it was an uncluttered by earlier interpretations. and the storytelling was was crucially clear. And so it was an uncluttered by earlier interpretations.
2:01:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Nick] And a story that you know you can very easily get lost in if you  [Nick] And a story that you know you can very easily get lost in if you 
2:01:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 are one of those rare, uninitiated people who goes to the Ring Cycle without knowing it   are one of those rare, uninitiated people who goes to the Ring Cycle without knowing it 
2:01:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Inside out and back to front. I was a bit like that but we won't go there.  [Martin] How did your career um shape up after such a huge international, Inside out and back to front. I was a bit like that but we won't go there.  [Martin] How did your career um shape up after such a huge international,
2:02:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was an international hit, but I...I was interested that the the agent Virginia Braddon said It was an international hit, but I...I was interested that the the agent Virginia Braddon said
2:02:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that for all you three designers, the offers were not rushing it. that for all you three designers, the offers were not rushing it.
2:02:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In in fact the contrary. In in fact the contrary.
2:02:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was um the year after that, 2005, was the first time in probably, certainly ten years. It was um the year after that, 2005, was the first time in probably, certainly ten years.
2:02:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Maybe a few more, where I suddenly found I had a year where  Maybe a few more, where I suddenly found I had a year where 
2:02:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

with quite a few gaps in it. And Michael also. And our theory is that that that comes from two things: with quite a few gaps in it. And Michael also. And our theory is that that that comes from two things:
2:02:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

One is that we had spent so much of the previous five years unavailable, One is that we had spent so much of the previous five years unavailable,
2:02:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I mean, we spent 3 months ...[Martin] Locked yourself out of circulation, I mean, we spent 3 months ...[Martin] Locked yourself out of circulation,
2:02:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yeah we spent three months with most of The Ring on stage and pre-rehearsed in Adelaide, the year before. Yeah we spent three months with most of The Ring on stage and pre-rehearsed in Adelaide, the year before.
2:03:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then we were both there for four months of 2004, when we actually did it. And for the  and then we were both there for four months of 2004, when we actually did it. And for the 
2:03:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

two years preceding that, 2001 and 2002, we spent two years preceding that, 2001 and 2002, we spent
2:03:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 so much time on the design of that. I mean Elke and I would spend a week talking through one act of one of those  so much time on the design of that. I mean Elke and I would spend a week talking through one act of one of those
2:03:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

shows. shows.
2:03:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I would describe exactly how the light was from one point to the next. How it would be. And it takes forever so that's And I would describe exactly how the light was from one point to the next. How it would be. And it takes forever so that's
2:03:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

part of the problem. We kind of put ourselves our of  circulation for quite a while. part of the problem. We kind of put ourselves our of  circulation for quite a while.
2:03:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And the other part of the problem is that it was so big, The set was stored afterwards in 38 shipping And the other part of the problem is that it was so big, The set was stored afterwards in 38 shipping
2:03:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

containers. That is a huge amount of scenery. You might normally expect two for an Opera. containers. That is a huge amount of scenery. You might normally expect two for an Opera.
2:03:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Three perhaps. It's so big.  I used a lighting rig that had over a thousand lamps Three perhaps. It's so big.  I used a lighting rig that had over a thousand lamps
2:04:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and ... like it was a thing of excess. Of glorious excess. and ... like it was a thing of excess. Of glorious excess.
2:04:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But it was massive. I'm pretty sure, to this day, it remains the theoretically the biggest interior show ever done in But it was massive. I'm pretty sure, to this day, it remains the theoretically the biggest interior show ever done in
2:04:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

this country. Not counting huge things in stadiums. I think we both kind of were branded as "They only do this country. Not counting huge things in stadiums. I think we both kind of were branded as "They only do
2:04:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

huge now.  huge now. 
2:04:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think there's genuinely an element of that. And yet a couple of years later I did this one-man show that Matthew I think there's genuinely an element of that. And yet a couple of years later I did this one-man show that Matthew
2:04:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

?Witted?  had written ?Witted?  had written
2:04:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and performed downstairs at Belvoir Street. I cut the space in half so went from 90 seats to 45. and performed downstairs at Belvoir Street. I cut the space in half so went from 90 seats to 45.
2:04:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I lit it with these six tiny little lamps that I carried up the hill the morning of the bump-in, in a plastic Officeworks tub.  and I lit it with these six tiny little lamps that I carried up the hill the morning of the bump-in, in a plastic Officeworks tub. 
2:04:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I loved doing that. But people again people pigeonhole you. [Martin] 2005 And I loved doing that. But people again people pigeonhole you. [Martin] 2005
2:05:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Simone Young, new to the Hamburg State Opera as music director. She took you up and the director Simon Phillips Simone Young, new to the Hamburg State Opera as music director. She took you up and the director Simon Phillips
2:05:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

for Benjamin Britten 's Midsummer Night 's dream for Benjamin Britten 's Midsummer Night 's dream
2:05:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then in 2007, Billy Budd.  Which must have been really stimulating.  [Nick] Fantastic. I mean I love both and then in 2007, Billy Budd.  Which must have been really stimulating.  [Nick] Fantastic. I mean I love both
2:05:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of those pieces. They're ...they're perfect examples of the Operas of those pieces. They're ...they're perfect examples of the Operas
2:05:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I love musically. I actually listened to Billy Budd last weekend, just because I hadn't  I love musically. I actually listened to Billy Budd last weekend, just because I hadn't 
2:05:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

heard it for a while and I was missing it. Um No, brilliant.   heard it for a while and I was missing it. Um No, brilliant.  
2:05:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And a stage that is .... like most big German opera houses, their stages can do a lot. Like you can lift entire And a stage that is .... like most big German opera houses, their stages can do a lot. Like you can lift entire
2:05:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

sections of the stage up out of the basement and disappear them into the roof and another whole set underneath it. All of which we sections of the stage up out of the basement and disappear them into the roof and another whole set underneath it. All of which we
2:05:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

exploited to the max.  exploited to the max. 
2:05:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think we nearly broke the technical department of that  company over those 2 shows. [Martin] A year later you lit I think we nearly broke the technical department of that  company over those 2 shows. [Martin] A year later you lit
2:06:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the Sydney Theatre Company's Hedda Gabler with, starring Cate Blanchett, the Sydney Theatre Company's Hedda Gabler with, starring Cate Blanchett,
2:06:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which toured to New York. I suppose lighting her which toured to New York. I suppose lighting her
2:06:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I just wanted to allude to the late designer Kristian Frederickson  and I just wanted to allude to the late designer Kristian Frederickson 
2:06:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and his costumes which are always, everyone always describes as gorgeous.  The lighting the costume and  and his costumes which are always, everyone always describes as gorgeous.  The lighting the costume and 
2:06:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In that case, particularly as worn by  In that case, particularly as worn by 
2:06:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

by Blanchett must have been a striking experience. [Nick] Well Cate is ... by Blanchett must have been a striking experience. [Nick] Well Cate is ...
2:06:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

She makes my life unbelievably easy. She has a luminosity to her skin. She makes my life unbelievably easy. She has a luminosity to her skin.
2:06:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that is just is extraordinary. And and rarely or unusually, it responds equally well to both extremes of warm and cool that is just is extraordinary. And and rarely or unusually, it responds equally well to both extremes of warm and cool
2:06:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

light. I mean a lot of people's skin tones are very happy in one end of the spectrum light. I mean a lot of people's skin tones are very happy in one end of the spectrum
2:07:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you really are struggling at the other end. Cate's is somehow.. you know it  just continues to be luminous.  and you really are struggling at the other end. Cate's is somehow.. you know it  just continues to be luminous. 
2:07:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and in fact the other person of whom I would say that,  Australian actor anyway, of whom I would say that was my first Hedda Gabler  and in fact the other person of whom I would say that,  Australian actor anyway, of whom I would say that was my first Hedda Gabler 
2:07:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that's Judy Davis. So I would say it was 18 years between the two, and that's Judy Davis. So I would say it was 18 years between the two,
2:07:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and in the same theatre. In Wharf One. Judy's Hedda Gabler was actually the first show I lit at Sydney Theatre Company. [Martin] I suppose we could leap  and in the same theatre. In Wharf One. Judy's Hedda Gabler was actually the first show I lit at Sydney Theatre Company. [Martin] I suppose we could leap 
2:07:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

forward to your production. forward to your production.
2:07:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Lighting of Blanchett in A Streetcar named Desire, which also went to New York. Sydney Theatre Company production Lighting of Blanchett in A Streetcar named Desire, which also went to New York. Sydney Theatre Company production
2:07:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the capacity of that wonderful play by Tennessee Williams to have New Orleans just out the door, the sound of it. and the capacity of that wonderful play by Tennessee Williams to have New Orleans just out the door, the sound of it.
2:07:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The lighting of it. The storms around it; the train going by. The lighting of it. The storms around it; the train going by.
2:07:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's terribly rich for the sound designer as well as the light designer as well. It's terribly rich for the sound designer as well as the light designer as well.
2:07:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And you were lighting.. you were lighting her Blanche with quite bold lights weren't you? And you were lighting.. you were lighting her Blanche with quite bold lights weren't you?
2:08:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I remember it, of open bulbs. [Nick] Yup I remember it, of open bulbs. [Nick] Yup
2:08:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Martin] But then also the sort of shadowy lights that she might well have preferred with her vanity. [Nick] But again [Martin] But then also the sort of shadowy lights that she might well have preferred with her vanity. [Nick] But again
2:08:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's um... Cate's physiognomy I'll say, can cope with all of that it's um... Cate's physiognomy I'll say, can cope with all of that
2:08:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then some. My favourite bit visually of that Street Car was the progression, Blanche's progression out of the and then some. My favourite bit visually of that Street Car was the progression, Blanche's progression out of the
2:08:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

house house
2:08:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and across the front of the stage at the very very end of the show. The front of the stage that has been rarely used up until that and across the front of the stage at the very very end of the show. The front of the stage that has been rarely used up until that
2:08:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

point. [Martin] Taken away...[Nick] Taken away  point. [Martin] Taken away...[Nick] Taken away 
2:08:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to the the asylum. Where I just poured all this ice cold light down the front of the wall. That was the qui.. quintessential to the the asylum. Where I just poured all this ice cold light down the front of the wall. That was the qui.. quintessential
2:08:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

opposite to all of the cosy interiors that had been in those rooms. [Martin] Because she was always covering up bulbs wasn't she? [Nick] Just this  opposite to all of the cosy interiors that had been in those rooms. [Martin] Because she was always covering up bulbs wasn't she? [Nick] Just this 
2:08:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

this sort of merciless sheet of very cold, this sort of merciless sheet of very cold,
2:09:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

white light onto this suddenly incredibly fragile little figure, wearing white. white light onto this suddenly incredibly fragile little figure, wearing white.
2:09:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You can do all of that with Cate You can do all of that with Cate
2:09:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and she is just fine. [Martin] Let me just ask you about musicals because that's ...that was added to your and she is just fine. [Martin] Let me just ask you about musicals because that's ...that was added to your
2:09:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

canvas when you did the um stage adaptation by director Simon Phillips in 2006 canvas when you did the um stage adaptation by director Simon Phillips in 2006
2:09:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of the film hit "Adventures of Priscilla, of the film hit "Adventures of Priscilla,
2:09:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Queen of the Desert" with Brian Thompson doing the set. Is this... were you learning about Australian Queen of the Desert" with Brian Thompson doing the set. Is this... were you learning about Australian
2:09:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

we've spoken about Australian colours on the Centre we've spoken about Australian colours on the Centre
2:09:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and  the bigness of Opera. I suppose it's the same ?relationship? for a musical? [Nick] It is. Stylised in a completely different and  the bigness of Opera. I suppose it's the same ?relationship? for a musical? [Nick] It is. Stylised in a completely different
2:09:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

way. I mean the entire through-going set for Priscilla is hot pink. Not actually an outback colour, way. I mean the entire through-going set for Priscilla is hot pink. Not actually an outback colour,
2:10:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it's it's a classic case of one of those choices. but it's it's a classic case of one of those choices.
2:10:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that's evocative ?evolve? that's evocative ?evolve?
2:10:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you just push it a little bit further in this direction or in that. And one of the earliest starting points for that design and you just push it a little bit further in this direction or in that. And one of the earliest starting points for that design
2:10:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

was that it might feel like you were watching every single one of those locations through the lens of a drag show in a was that it might feel like you were watching every single one of those locations through the lens of a drag show in a
2:10:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

pub at the Imperial in Newtown. So so a very humble simple means - the little campfire literally has cellophane pub at the Imperial in Newtown. So so a very humble simple means - the little campfire literally has cellophane
2:10:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and flickering lights in it. Even the kind of rather massive bead curtains and flitter curtains and flickering lights in it. Even the kind of rather massive bead curtains and flitter curtains
2:10:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and drops and things, are all from the repertoire of an either tacky or and drops and things, are all from the repertoire of an either tacky or
2:10:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or glorious drag show in the back room of a small pub in suburban  Sydney. So that that was a kind of starting point for it.  or glorious drag show in the back room of a small pub in suburban  Sydney. So that that was a kind of starting point for it. 
2:10:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Which we progressively moved away from. Particularly once we introduced a million dollars worth of a a very high-tech bus into Which we progressively moved away from. Particularly once we introduced a million dollars worth of a a very high-tech bus into
2:11:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the middle of the process. Which nearly killed the show ... and us. But more to the point, the middle of the process. Which nearly killed the show ... and us. But more to the point,
2:11:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's a real departure for me. It's not my cup of tea it's a real departure for me. It's not my cup of tea
2:11:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and certainly not my usual territory. [Martin] The razzamatazz required of musical lighting, of sound? [Nick] Yeah  and certainly not my usual territory. [Martin] The razzamatazz required of musical lighting, of sound? [Nick] Yeah 
2:11:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's more just... [Martin]  Choreography, singing. It's more just... [Martin]  Choreography, singing.
2:11:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I just don't like it as a form. It's not a theatre form that has ever particularly drawn me I just don't like it as a form. It's not a theatre form that has ever particularly drawn me
2:11:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or attracted me. It's a little bit like my reasons for doing Wagner. I did get to the point or attracted me. It's a little bit like my reasons for doing Wagner. I did get to the point
2:11:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

where I need to stop being snotty about this. And just have a little reality check where I need to stop being snotty about this. And just have a little reality check
2:11:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and make sure that I really can do what I am, slightly looking down my nose at, as being all flash and make sure that I really can do what I am, slightly looking down my nose at, as being all flash
2:11:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and giggle. And not much craft. And I certainly was wrong to the extent that it is... it's bloody hard work and giggle. And not much craft. And I certainly was wrong to the extent that it is... it's bloody hard work
2:12:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I mean just the numbers you're dealing with in one of those shows. There's 2500 lighting cues in and I mean just the numbers you're dealing with in one of those shows. There's 2500 lighting cues in
2:12:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Priscilla. And every time I sit down to do it again. Priscilla. And every time I sit down to do it again.
2:12:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I have this sort of sinking feeling that you're at the bottom of Everest base camp, I have this sort of sinking feeling that you're at the bottom of Everest base camp,
2:12:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and there is a big number 2500 up there. and yo are kind of crawling on your hands and knees and there is a big number 2500 up there. and yo are kind of crawling on your hands and knees
2:12:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you know it's gonna take you the next three weeks to get through it. Love Never Dies is a different case in point because and you know it's gonna take you the next three weeks to get through it. Love Never Dies is a different case in point because
2:12:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it is so firmly rooted in the world of the Opera. it is so firmly rooted in the world of the Opera.
2:12:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's a much... [Martin] Love Never Dies is  Andrew Lloyd Webber's sequel to Phantom of..Phantom. [Nick] Exactly  It's a much... [Martin] Love Never Dies is  Andrew Lloyd Webber's sequel to Phantom of..Phantom. [Nick] Exactly 
2:12:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Martin] and you did that in 2011 so it was kind of panned in London and you were wanting [Martin] and you did that in 2011 so it was kind of panned in London and you were wanting
2:12:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you and the team had to kind of re-make it. [Nick] Well Andrew approached Simon Phillips and said, and you and the team had to kind of re-make it. [Nick] Well Andrew approached Simon Phillips and said,
2:12:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

can you rethink this show for me because it can you rethink this show for me because it
2:13:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it was going to be rolled out in eight countries. They they talked of it in terms of a roll-out. It was going to be it was going to be rolled out in eight countries. They they talked of it in terms of a roll-out. It was going to be
2:13:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

rolled out in eight countries around the world, almost immediately upon its London opening. Except it was then so badly rolled out in eight countries around the world, almost immediately upon its London opening. Except it was then so badly
2:13:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

panned that the rollout rolled back in very quickly. I mean it was a massively ambitious plan and panned that the rollout rolled back in very quickly. I mean it was a massively ambitious plan and
2:13:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then somewhere along the line, Andrew approached Simon and then somewhere along the line, Andrew approached Simon
2:13:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and said what are your thoughts about rewrites, restructures, rethinks? and said what are your thoughts about rewrites, restructures, rethinks?
2:13:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and we were very happy little vegemites a few years later and we were very happy little vegemites a few years later
2:13:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when Andrew joined us onstage on the Opening night in Melbourne saying this was now the only production of this show that when Andrew joined us onstage on the Opening night in Melbourne saying this was now the only production of this show that
2:13:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

he ever will allow. And so far he's been good to his word. And we've done it since... we've done the German production we've done  he ever will allow. And so far he's been good to his word. And we've done it since... we've done the German production we've done 
2:13:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it in Japan and later this year it will do ...the now it in Japan and later this year it will do ...the now
2:13:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It'll do a national tour in America but not Broadway. Because Broadway producers don't like it. [Martin] Wow Ok.  It'll do a national tour in America but not Broadway. Because Broadway producers don't like it. [Martin] Wow Ok. 
2:14:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but that that's of much less "out of character thing" for me to be doing than Priscilla, but that that's of much less "out of character thing" for me to be doing than Priscilla,
2:14:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That really is... Priscilla is almost unique in my work, in terms of that that style That really is... Priscilla is almost unique in my work, in terms of that that style
2:14:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Martin] I want to ask you about the actor 's company. Which is the dream of so many theatre makers to sort of work in an [Martin] I want to ask you about the actor 's company. Which is the dream of so many theatre makers to sort of work in an
2:14:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

ongoing ensemble and in 2008 Robyn Nevin the artistic director of the Sydney Theatre Company  ongoing ensemble and in 2008 Robyn Nevin the artistic director of the Sydney Theatre Company 
2:14:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

formed the Actors Company formed the Actors Company
2:14:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and invited you to participate in it. As well as some dozen actors... over a three year period. What  and invited you to participate in it. As well as some dozen actors... over a three year period. What 
2:14:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

did you think of this model did you think of this model
2:14:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the output? [Nick] I completely disagreed with it. And had quite strong disagreements with Robyn about it. Because and the output? [Nick] I completely disagreed with it. And had quite strong disagreements with Robyn about it. Because
2:15:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I unlike most, the vast majority of people in Australia I have lots of experience of working in ensemble companies. Because all I unlike most, the vast majority of people in Australia I have lots of experience of working in ensemble companies. Because all
2:15:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of the German theatre companies I've worked in, are ensemble companies. All of them. Without exception. They perform in rep, of the German theatre companies I've worked in, are ensemble companies. All of them. Without exception. They perform in rep,
2:15:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but they do not play ensuite. That's a  critical difference. So that they perform a different show every night of the week but they do not play ensuite. That's a  critical difference. So that they perform a different show every night of the week
2:15:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and therefore are in rehearsals for yet more different shows every morning. So there is a need for an ensemble. and therefore are in rehearsals for yet more different shows every morning. So there is a need for an ensemble.
2:15:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's it's ... Actually, not just desirable. it's it's ... Actually, not just desirable.
2:15:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is an active need to have a lot of actors on staff so that that scheduling system can work. Because a successful It is an active need to have a lot of actors on staff so that that scheduling system can work. Because a successful
2:15:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

production will open at the beginning of the season and play right through to the end of that year. production will open at the beginning of the season and play right through to the end of that year.
2:15:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But it might only play twice a week. So there's just a logistic need there, But it might only play twice a week. So there's just a logistic need there,
2:16:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But it is also based on having an ensemble of about fifty or sixty people. But it is also based on having an ensemble of about fifty or sixty people.
2:16:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You can't make that work with twelve people unless, in Robyn's terminology, You can't make that work with twelve people unless, in Robyn's terminology,
2:16:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the guru version of an ensemble. By which she means an ensemble grouped around one specific theatre maker the guru version of an ensemble. By which she means an ensemble grouped around one specific theatre maker
2:16:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

of whatever discipline, who make their own work. of whatever discipline, who make their own work.
2:16:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's completely different. If you've got twelve people collaborating on the very writing with a piece of work then that's That's completely different. If you've got twelve people collaborating on the very writing with a piece of work then that's
2:16:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

a completely different story. Then you have all of the undoubted gains of an ensemble a completely different story. Then you have all of the undoubted gains of an ensemble
2:16:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

where people are, by constantly working together,  they develop their own extraordinary set of relationships in a way that where people are, by constantly working together,  they develop their own extraordinary set of relationships in a way that
2:16:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

by default, by default,
2:16:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

some actors in Australia because the pool is so small, have ended up doing over the years, some actors in Australia because the pool is so small, have ended up doing over the years,
2:16:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but never with that continuity of exposure to each other. but never with that continuity of exposure to each other.
2:17:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's fine. But if you've got a company of twelve and they're immutable, That's fine. But if you've got a company of twelve and they're immutable,
2:17:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so it's always that group of twelve people who will do a show. For starters your repertoire choices are limited so it's always that group of twelve people who will do a show. For starters your repertoire choices are limited
2:17:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to things that will service twelve people. So already to things that will service twelve people. So already
2:17:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you're trying to service the ensemble, rather than the ensemble servicing the production you're trying to service the ensemble, rather than the ensemble servicing the production
2:17:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and so we ended up with ... well the 2 main bits of fallout were, a couple of bits of gender-bending casting that was not and so we ended up with ... well the 2 main bits of fallout were, a couple of bits of gender-bending casting that was not
2:17:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

done as intentional gender bending casting. It was done perforce because you know there are... [Martin] Peter Carroll, John Gaden? [Nick]  Well I was going to say done as intentional gender bending casting. It was done perforce because you know there are... [Martin] Peter Carroll, John Gaden? [Nick]  Well I was going to say
2:17:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then there is one glorious example of and then there is one glorious example of
2:17:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

where that was brought...  brought to huge advantage and that is Peter Carroll's unforgettable portrayal of Girly  where that was brought...  brought to huge advantage and that is Peter Carroll's unforgettable portrayal of Girly 
2:18:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Pogson in The Season at Sarsaparilla. That was not an enforced choice. That was, that would have been the case anyway Pogson in The Season at Sarsaparilla. That was not an enforced choice. That was, that would have been the case anyway
2:18:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but you don't want to be in a situation where those kind of genuine choices are being obscured but you don't want to be in a situation where those kind of genuine choices are being obscured
2:18:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

by the number of times you might have to do it because you've got X number of women,. by the number of times you might have to do it because you've got X number of women,.
2:18:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

X number of men and the roles of fall out differently. X number of men and the roles of fall out differently.
2:18:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's just one instance of it. Then you've got age, type, That's just one instance of it. Then you've got age, type,
2:18:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and all the rest of it. All the rest of the variables that normally would go into normally would inform your and all the rest of it. All the rest of the variables that normally would go into normally would inform your
2:18:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

every casting choice. every casting choice.
2:18:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And suddenly you've got the same 12 faces, the same 12 people. Who an audience will very quickly discover, like all of us,  And suddenly you've got the same 12 faces, the same 12 people. Who an audience will very quickly discover, like all of us, 
2:18:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

their own mannerisms, their own limitations, their own style. their own mannerisms, their own limitations, their own style.
2:18:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I ended up feelling really sorry for those actors because they were exposed to more I ended up feelling really sorry for those actors because they were exposed to more
2:18:60

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or less the same audience over three years. In roles that they were  or less the same audience over three years. In roles that they were 
2:19:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

more often than not, simply type cast in, because you are trying to cast a twelve person play from twelve people. more often than not, simply type cast in, because you are trying to cast a twelve person play from twelve people.
2:19:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And just be clear what is the difference between that And just be clear what is the difference between that
2:19:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the repertory company that you applaud? Where there's a greater turnover of plays - rehearsed in the morning and the repertory company that you applaud? Where there's a greater turnover of plays - rehearsed in the morning
2:19:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and performed in the evening. [Nick] Fifty actors to choose from. [Martin] The size of the... and performed in the evening. [Nick] Fifty actors to choose from. [Martin] The size of the...
2:19:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And still because they're German companies with lots of money, still augmented with guest actors as well. And still because they're German companies with lots of money, still augmented with guest actors as well.
2:19:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But 50 is not an uncommon number. It is coming down in size. But 50 is not an uncommon number. It is coming down in size.
2:19:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The first shows I did at the Schiller theatre, they were ensemble The first shows I did at the Schiller theatre, they were ensemble
2:19:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and there were 70 people.  The ?Kammersch? theatre in Munich until it's recently been decimated, was an extraordinary ensemble of and there were 70 people.  The ?Kammersch? theatre in Munich until it's recently been decimated, was an extraordinary ensemble of
2:19:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

actors, numbering about 60, high 50s. That gives you a choice of people to draw from. actors, numbering about 60, high 50s. That gives you a choice of people to draw from.
2:20:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's completely different to saying there are twelve people and they have to be the entire play. That's completely different to saying there are twelve people and they have to be the entire play.
2:20:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You can't even use Peter Carroll and John Gaden from the Actors Company You can't even use Peter Carroll and John Gaden from the Actors Company
2:20:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and insert them in a different production in that year. But they were an immutable group. [Martin] You think of the actors, of course, and insert them in a different production in that year. But they were an immutable group. [Martin] You think of the actors, of course,
2:20:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in these ensembles.  But you are the lighting designer. Did it affect the fact that it was an actor 's company. in these ensembles.  But you are the lighting designer. Did it affect the fact that it was an actor 's company.
2:20:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In this way. Did it affect how you worked? [Nick] No, In this way. Did it affect how you worked? [Nick] No,
2:20:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because so many of those people as it happens, are good friends of mine. That that I had that close relationship with them Because so many of those people as it happens, are good friends of mine. That that I had that close relationship with them
2:20:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

anyway. So but had had that not been the case, anyway. So but had had that not been the case,
2:20:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it is possible um that I would have got closer to some of those people than I otherwise would have, it is possible um that I would have got closer to some of those people than I otherwise would have,
2:20:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but under the circs it didn't really apply. but under the circs it didn't really apply.
2:20:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I also didn't do every one of their production by any means. [Martin] You did the War of the Roses - Part one and two, I also didn't do every one of their production by any means. [Martin] You did the War of the Roses - Part one and two,
2:21:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

which is the sort of standout production in 2009 which is the sort of standout production in 2009
2:21:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

directed by Benedict Andrews. You won a Helpmann Awards for that and awards in Sydney and Melbourne. directed by Benedict Andrews. You won a Helpmann Awards for that and awards in Sydney and Melbourne.
2:21:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

What did you get right with the lighting there? What did you get right with the lighting there?
2:21:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Big empty space. [Martin] Yes that's right [Nick] That's just a really stunning piece of work. That whole Big empty space. [Martin] Yes that's right [Nick] That's just a really stunning piece of work. That whole
2:21:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

production. Very very rigourously conceived production. Very very rigourously conceived
2:21:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and beyond Benedict, a major part played in that by Tom Wright, and beyond Benedict, a major part played in that by Tom Wright,
2:21:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

who adapted the plays. Because a massive slash. Even though it ended up at two, four and a bit hours. who adapted the plays. Because a massive slash. Even though it ended up at two, four and a bit hours.
2:21:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

parts. [Martin] Some 4 or 5 plays. [Nick] Henry the fifth reduced to, you know a mere cipher. parts. [Martin] Some 4 or 5 plays. [Nick] Henry the fifth reduced to, you know a mere cipher.
2:21:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but very.. like ... edited in the genuine sense of the word. You go but very.. like ... edited in the genuine sense of the word. You go
2:22:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

This is why we are doing these plays. This is the story we want to tell. Everything that doesn't fit that is out until This is why we are doing these plays. This is the story we want to tell. Everything that doesn't fit that is out until
2:22:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

we find we need it back in.  we find we need it back in. 
2:22:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But the starting point is - it's out. Rather than the other way round. But look, just a  really really solidly thought But the starting point is - it's out. Rather than the other way round. But look, just a  really really solidly thought
2:22:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

through production. Benedict at the height of his of his talents, before he left Australia. [Martin] You worked with  Benedict again in  through production. Benedict at the height of his of his talents, before he left Australia. [Martin] You worked with  Benedict again in 
2:22:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The next year. The next year.
2:22:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

on Shakespeare's Measure for Measure on Shakespeare's Measure for Measure
2:22:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and at  Belvoir. Which was set in a glass box with a sort of hotel room with actors running surveillance cameras.  and at  Belvoir. Which was set in a glass box with a sort of hotel room with actors running surveillance cameras. 
2:22:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was quite controversial as was other productions of the Belvoir at  that period for the radical rewriting of It was quite controversial as was other productions of the Belvoir at  that period for the radical rewriting of
2:22:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Classics.  Classics. 
2:22:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And resetting them often in Australian locations. But just setting them somewhere completely different. Your  And resetting them often in Australian locations. But just setting them somewhere completely different. Your 
2:23:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

perspective as a lighting man? perspective as a lighting man?
2:23:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Perhaps one drawn to abstraction about that argument? That concern for the text lost? No one will ever know the Perhaps one drawn to abstraction about that argument? That concern for the text lost? No one will ever know the
2:23:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Classic in its original, because no one  sees it that way?  Anymore. [Nick] For a start Measure for Measure was barely rewritten. It was Classic in its original, because no one  sees it that way?  Anymore. [Nick] For a start Measure for Measure was barely rewritten. It was
2:23:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

no more than... no no more than... no
2:23:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

No more than you'd always edit bits of Shakespeare. It wasn't rewritten. There were a few small cuts. My take on that No more than you'd always edit bits of Shakespeare. It wasn't rewritten. There were a few small cuts. My take on that
2:23:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

whole hot potato issue is that, there are some classics that actively deserve,  not need, whole hot potato issue is that, there are some classics that actively deserve,  not need,
2:23:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but deserve to be reconceived through today's eyes. but deserve to be reconceived through today's eyes.
2:23:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Otherwise I don't believe they will retain their classic status. I think the argument in terms of Shakespeare's a Otherwise I don't believe they will retain their classic status. I think the argument in terms of Shakespeare's a
2:24:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

no-brainer. Shakespeare set  everything he wrote in his own time. He set no-brainer. Shakespeare set  everything he wrote in his own time. He set
2:24:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Julius Caesar in Elizabethan times. Just as he set Timon of Athens in Elizabethan times. Julius Caesar in Elizabethan times. Just as he set Timon of Athens in Elizabethan times.
2:24:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I don't think that... anyone who yearns for the days of what they see as being true Shakespearian productions just needs to go I don't think that... anyone who yearns for the days of what they see as being true Shakespearian productions just needs to go
2:24:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and do their homework. and do their homework.
2:24:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

God even knows what they think those true productions might have looked like it, God even knows what they think those true productions might have looked like it,
2:24:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

that's not really ...that's not so much about rewriting. That's about what time you play them that's not really ...that's not so much about rewriting. That's about what time you play them
2:24:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or how the ... I think it's useful in terms of the rewriting question, to look at translations where a rewrite is necessary because or how the ... I think it's useful in terms of the rewriting question, to look at translations where a rewrite is necessary because
2:24:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you need to translate the piece into English. I believe that anything in translation needs to be regularly refreshed. you need to translate the piece into English. I believe that anything in translation needs to be regularly refreshed.
2:25:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because a translation will age very, very quickly. Because a translation will age very, very quickly.
2:25:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Every single word that a translator chooses is a value judgement Every single word that a translator chooses is a value judgement
2:25:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that value judgement is formed by the time in which that translator lives. So last week I read a William ?Archer?  and that value judgement is formed by the time in which that translator lives. So last week I read a William ?Archer? 
2:25:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

translation of Ghosts that he did in the 20's, if not even a bit earlier.[ Martin]  Of Ibsen's Ghosts? [Nick] Of Ibsen's Ghosts translation of Ghosts that he did in the 20's, if not even a bit earlier.[ Martin]  Of Ibsen's Ghosts? [Nick] Of Ibsen's Ghosts
2:25:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

[Martin] are you lighting it somewhere soon? [Nick] Mmm and I read that knowing it would be a very old-fashioned production [Martin] are you lighting it somewhere soon? [Nick] Mmm and I read that knowing it would be a very old-fashioned production
2:25:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

er translation but also knowing that it would be very faithful translation. er translation but also knowing that it would be very faithful translation.
2:25:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I think it's really important to have those to go back to it. But there is no way you would choose to play that translation now. and I think it's really important to have those to go back to it. But there is no way you would choose to play that translation now.
2:25:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You're just putting a great big wall between the piece You're just putting a great big wall between the piece
2:25:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and the audience. You're asking them to... it is not incomprehensible. Of course not. and the audience. You're asking them to... it is not incomprehensible. Of course not.
2:25:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But you're asking them to kind of think around a corner or perceive around a corner. Because the language But you're asking them to kind of think around a corner or perceive around a corner. Because the language
2:26:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

they're hearing is just not the English that we speak today. And it would no more be the English that is spoken in UK. they're hearing is just not the English that we speak today. And it would no more be the English that is spoken in UK.
2:26:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's not a cultural thing. That's not a cultural thing.
2:26:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's just simply to do with time. Now if you accept that a translation needs to be refreshed because the translation is It's just simply to do with time. Now if you accept that a translation needs to be refreshed because the translation is
2:26:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

bound by the choices a translator makes in his time of life bound by the choices a translator makes in his time of life
2:26:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think you can apply that same thinking to something that doesn't... a text that doesn't require translating. Sometimes it I think you can apply that same thinking to something that doesn't... a text that doesn't require translating. Sometimes it
2:26:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

simply needs retelling in its own time. simply needs retelling in its own time.
2:26:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I would, I stress, I would, I stress,
2:26:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

to make a very clear distinction between a text which is printed to be read and a text which is to be performed. I would to make a very clear distinction between a text which is printed to be read and a text which is to be performed. I would
2:26:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

scream and howl louder than anybody if anybody were to revisit Willie Hazlett scream and howl louder than anybody if anybody were to revisit Willie Hazlett
2:26:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and start doing reduced versions of Shakespeare or "tinkered with" versions of Shakespeare as a text to read and start doing reduced versions of Shakespeare or "tinkered with" versions of Shakespeare as a text to read
2:27:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and as a text used as a starting point. But as soon as you make a performing version of that text. and as a text used as a starting point. But as soon as you make a performing version of that text.
2:27:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think it is up for grabs.  I think it is up for grabs. 
2:27:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And you...you know...  you update it or you rework it at your own peril. [Martin] I was interested to see the connection And you...you know...  you update it or you rework it at your own peril. [Martin] I was interested to see the connection
2:27:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

'cause Simon Stone at that time of Belvoir Street 's productions,  was was similarly commented on as the ones with is 'cause Simon Stone at that time of Belvoir Street 's productions,  was was similarly commented on as the ones with is
2:27:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the one by Benedict Andrew that we've just discussed.  And then you were in 2011 the one by Benedict Andrew that we've just discussed.  And then you were in 2011
2:27:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

doing a co-production with Simon at the MTC and the STC of of Brecht's Baal. And you designed doing a co-production with Simon at the MTC and the STC of of Brecht's Baal. And you designed
2:27:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and lit that. And you too had a big two sided box and lit that. And you too had a big two sided box
2:27:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in it. [Nick] I did [Martin] Was that kind of the signature of this sort of Theatre making? Seemed to be big boxes? [Nick] No. because in it. [Nick] I did [Martin] Was that kind of the signature of this sort of Theatre making? Seemed to be big boxes? [Nick] No. because
2:28:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

mine was a two sided box mine was a two sided box
2:28:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and had no glass walls. Look the glass wall, the glass box is a trope stolen directly from German theatre and had no glass walls. Look the glass wall, the glass box is a trope stolen directly from German theatre
2:28:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and mostly from the Schaubuhn in Berlin. Which for a time, the generation that is Benedict and mostly from the Schaubuhn in Berlin. Which for a time, the generation that is Benedict
2:28:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and slightly later than him that is ?set in stone?. Massively influenced by that. It's just one of those cultural fads and slightly later than him that is ?set in stone?. Massively influenced by that. It's just one of those cultural fads
2:28:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or not fads, that's denigrating it. I don't mean that. It's a little mini movement that flutters through and it will pass on, or not fads, that's denigrating it. I don't mean that. It's a little mini movement that flutters through and it will pass on,
2:28:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's just about, the glass boxes is just about gone again. We've had our glass box moment. [Martin]  But you are onto it  it's just about, the glass boxes is just about gone again. We've had our glass box moment. [Martin]  But you are onto it 
2:28:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

so you must have been sassy at the time? [Nick] Yeah but  so you must have been sassy at the time? [Nick] Yeah but 
2:28:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and indeed I did use a glass box in the Face to Face that I did with Simon two years later. No Baal's more interesting, and indeed I did use a glass box in the Face to Face that I did with Simon two years later. No Baal's more interesting,
2:29:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Baal was about... the first half has to be an interior Baal was about... the first half has to be an interior
2:29:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and has to be a reasonably contained claustrophobic interior. And the second half has to be completely open outside in and has to be a reasonably contained claustrophobic interior. And the second half has to be completely open outside in
2:29:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

nature. And I wanted it to rain for the whole of the second act. [Martin] That was the thing in the nineties. nature. And I wanted it to rain for the whole of the second act. [Martin] That was the thing in the nineties.
2:29:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Everyone had ,,, there was always rain in the 90's. [Nick] Yeah But rain you rarely see it done well, Because it's hard Everyone had ,,, there was always rain in the 90's. [Nick] Yeah But rain you rarely see it done well, Because it's hard
2:29:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it's never making the rain. It's getting rid of the bloody stuff that's hard.  and it's never making the rain. It's getting rid of the bloody stuff that's hard. 
2:29:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But also how you get from one of the other. And that stumped me for weeks. So we knew we wanted a white room with two sides and But also how you get from one of the other. And that stumped me for weeks. So we knew we wanted a white room with two sides and
2:29:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

when you.. we... it could only have two sides because of the two different spaces when you.. we... it could only have two sides because of the two different spaces
2:29:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it was going in Malthouse and the Wharf. And I wanted a blank open space it was going in Malthouse and the Wharf. And I wanted a blank open space
2:29:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and a rectangle of rain over that rectangular space. But how do you get from one of the other? and a rectangle of rain over that rectangular space. But how do you get from one of the other?
2:30:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then I remembered the Buster Keaton film in the Tornado where he walks up to the front of the barn and then I remembered the Buster Keaton film in the Tornado where he walks up to the front of the barn
2:30:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and you watch the whole barn fall fall towards him. and you watch the whole barn fall fall towards him.
2:30:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and he ends standing up in the little cut out hole from the hay loft.  And I thought that's how you do it. and he ends standing up in the little cut out hole from the hay loft.  And I thought that's how you do it.
2:30:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So the wall fell. [Martin] That's a great image. Something worked. It won 2 awards and a foundation grant  So the wall fell. [Martin] That's a great image. Something worked. It won 2 awards and a foundation grant 
2:30:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

for design and your lighting for Baal. We could talk forever, but I must ask you, we must finish for design and your lighting for Baal. We could talk forever, but I must ask you, we must finish
2:30:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and I just ask you, this important question about ... as a teenager in 1977 and I just ask you, this important question about ... as a teenager in 1977
2:30:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

you did an Australia Council course for ten weeks in lighting design. And since at NIDA you've taught you did an Australia Council course for ten weeks in lighting design. And since at NIDA you've taught
2:30:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and consistently in Munich, you've taught the subject. What are students today learning now in Australian and consistently in Munich, you've taught the subject. What are students today learning now in Australian
2:30:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

 courses about lighting design and are they adequate? [Nick] Not enough.  courses about lighting design and are they adequate? [Nick] Not enough.
2:31:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

No, there's a course on lighting design at WAPA which has been there for over 10 years. [Martin] In Perth [Nick] Yes   No, there's a course on lighting design at WAPA which has been there for over 10 years. [Martin] In Perth [Nick] Yes  
2:31:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but  you need to go to Perth if you want to study lighting design in Australia. There's a bit of a problem. In these days of a much more but  you need to go to Perth if you want to study lighting design in Australia. There's a bit of a problem. In these days of a much more
2:31:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

enlightened administration enlightened administration
2:31:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

at NIDA, who I am not at war with. That is now well in train. [Martin]  to happen [Nick] But you know  at NIDA, who I am not at war with. That is now well in train. [Martin]  to happen [Nick] But you know 
2:31:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's not starting a course from scratch.  It's not starting a course from scratch. 
2:31:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If you want to do it halfways decently it's not something that can happen overnight. Its an enormous amount of work If you want to do it halfways decently it's not something that can happen overnight. Its an enormous amount of work
2:31:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I'm discovering those enormous amount of bureaucracy to do with, because all of these institutions are now I think And I'm discovering those enormous amount of bureaucracy to do with, because all of these institutions are now I think
2:31:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

someone regrettably, universities. There's a whole lot of university constraints that need to be met someone regrettably, universities. There's a whole lot of university constraints that need to be met
2:31:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and in terms of that, implying great rigour and in terms of that, implying great rigour
2:32:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

obviously, obviously,
2:32:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think it's a terrific thing. But some of it is ... because... the whole idea... they're a little bit antithetical to the I think it's a terrific thing. But some of it is ... because... the whole idea... they're a little bit antithetical to the
2:32:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

principle of  university courses. principle of  university courses.
2:32:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's not theoretical knowledge to theoretical knowledge esse. It has to be practical knowledge as well It's not theoretical knowledge to theoretical knowledge esse. It has to be practical knowledge as well
2:32:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and that's where I think the whole university system gets in the way sometimes and that's where I think the whole university system gets in the way sometimes
2:32:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or their criteria. So it's a long way of saying it takes a long time to structure it. Put together the course components or their criteria. So it's a long way of saying it takes a long time to structure it. Put together the course components
2:32:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and then make it fit into the guiding principles of ...or the guidelines of the university system. and then make it fit into the guiding principles of ...or the guidelines of the university system.
2:32:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

but it is it is happening. But God it's long overdue. And really. and Again - Same old thinking. but it is it is happening. But God it's long overdue. And really. and Again - Same old thinking.
2:32:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is taught de facto as one of 6,7,8, subjects to the production students. As though yet something  It is taught de facto as one of 6,7,8, subjects to the production students. As though yet something 
2:33:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the technician does,  the technician does, 
2:33:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it it means that another whole generation of people who will end up being lighting designers aren't  starting playing and it it means that another whole generation of people who will end up being lighting designers aren't  starting playing
2:33:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

in the same sandpit as the set designs and the costume designers. If you just started all those people together, in the same sandpit as the set designs and the costume designers. If you just started all those people together,
2:33:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

for God 's sake, there's only three visual elements to what you see on most stages. It's the room for God 's sake, there's only three visual elements to what you see on most stages. It's the room
2:33:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

the people are standing in, the clothes they are wearing and the light that is lighting all of above. that is they are the the people are standing in, the clothes they are wearing and the light that is lighting all of above. that is they are the
2:33:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

visual. [Martin] Perhaps the sound they hear. [Nick] no the visual. So there are only those three.  there... surely they're parts of a whole. visual. [Martin] Perhaps the sound they hear. [Nick] no the visual. So there are only those three.  there... surely they're parts of a whole.
2:33:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So why separate them? Why not start them altogether. It just defies description to me. So why separate them? Why not start them altogether. It just defies description to me.
2:33:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and it used to be easy to write that off as a quaint bit of  1950s thinking at NIDA.  and it used to be easy to write that off as a quaint bit of  1950s thinking at NIDA. 
2:33:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and all the other institutions. NIDA is by no means the only place  guilty. But it's been... and all the other institutions. NIDA is by no means the only place  guilty. But it's been...
2:34:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The world of theatre has changed far too long ago for that still to be an excuse. The world of theatre has changed far too long ago for that still to be an excuse.
2:34:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

thank you for talking with us and congratulations on your career and for sharing with us. [Nick] Pleasure. [Martin] It was nice to meet you. thank you for talking with us and congratulations on your career and for sharing with us. [Nick] Pleasure. [Martin] It was nice to meet you.
2:34:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Thank you Thank you