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This is Martin Portus, back again on May the 9th 2017, This is Martin Portus, back again on May the 9th 2017,
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in a follow-up interview, of my interview earlier, with the Sydney-based set designer Michael Scott Mitchell. in a follow-up interview, of my interview earlier, with the Sydney-based set designer Michael Scott Mitchell.
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Held for the first time on the 2nd of May last week, in this studio of the Redfern Community Centre in Sydney, Held for the first time on the 2nd of May last week, in this studio of the Redfern Community Centre in Sydney,
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and this oral history interview is being conducted for the State library of New South Wales oral history collection. and this oral history interview is being conducted for the State library of New South Wales oral history collection.
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Michael, welcome back. Thanks for more of your time. Pleasure. Michael, welcome back. Thanks for more of your time. Pleasure.
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We were talking about the ring which you are staging are directed by Elke Reinhardt in Adelaide, We were talking about the ring which you are staging are directed by Elke Reinhardt in Adelaide,
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the first full production of Wagner's Ring in Adelaide that year um and ah some striking images from your work. the first full production of Wagner's Ring in Adelaide that year um and ah some striking images from your work.
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I think we were talking about ah the reinvention of yet another cauldron um I think we were talking about ah the reinvention of yet another cauldron um
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as Brünnhilde's lair as Brünnhilde's lair
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and um the Rhine River recreated as a water curtain. What other images do you remember and um the Rhine River recreated as a water curtain. What other images do you remember
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and that you're most proud of and that you're most proud of
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from that 16 and a half hours of opera? Yes, it is a long time. from that 16 and a half hours of opera? Yes, it is a long time.
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Ah there are a number of pieces there. Hunding's hut in um Die Walküre. Hunding has a hut in the forest Ah there are a number of pieces there. Hunding's hut in um Die Walküre. Hunding has a hut in the forest
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and Sigmund gets trapped inside this house and Sigmund gets trapped inside this house
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and so I was thinking back to my childhood and my brother Robert used to get a cork and he'd slice off two bits of cork and then he'd put a and so I was thinking back to my childhood and my brother Robert used to get a cork and he'd slice off two bits of cork and then he'd put a
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ring of pins around, connecting the two bits of cork around with a little door, and then he'd get a fly and stick it inside ring of pins around, connecting the two bits of cork around with a little door, and then he'd get a fly and stick it inside
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and that was the basis of Hundig's hut. So it's a series spikes, 12 spikes that come through the floor and that was the basis of Hundig's hut. So it's a series spikes, 12 spikes that come through the floor
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and trap Hundig... trap Sigmund as he's walking through the inverted commas forest. So and it's interesting how those sort of  and trap Hundig... trap Sigmund as he's walking through the inverted commas forest. So and it's interesting how those sort of 
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images come from a long lineage lurking somewhere in your subconscious images come from a long lineage lurking somewhere in your subconscious
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[Martin] what about the hellish flames of the funeral pyre in Gotterdammerung  [Michael] well there in lies a story because [Martin] what about the hellish flames of the funeral pyre in Gotterdammerung  [Michael] well there in lies a story because
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arguably a very simple idea that took a great deal of resources arguably a very simple idea that took a great deal of resources
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and a great deal of convincing the theatre to allow us to do it because it was what we call the line of fire, and a great deal of convincing the theatre to allow us to do it because it was what we call the line of fire,
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which was literally a flown batten of fire from one side of the theatre to the other which was literally a flown batten of fire from one side of the theatre to the other
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that could go at low heat or very high heat. So as the idea was that as Brunhilde walked towards it that could go at low heat or very high heat. So as the idea was that as Brunhilde walked towards it
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It then flew down over her as a wall of fire and we had as every ring cycle has It then flew down over her as a wall of fire and we had as every ring cycle has
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Verify
We were having budget problems [laughs]  "ah" the incidentally enough my 2IC who built the model, co-odinated the build of the model, We were having budget problems [laughs]  "ah" the incidentally enough my 2IC who built the model, co-odinated the build of the model,
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Andrew Powell was... also worked in film Andrew Powell was... also worked in film
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when he was working on the Star Wars, one of the Star Wars films, and the costume designer on that particular Star Wars episode was a when he was working on the Star Wars, one of the Star Wars films, and the costume designer on that particular Star Wars episode was a
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Japanese woman. Japanese woman.
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and she ran across to him and said, I believe you're working on the Ring Cycle. Have you gone over budget yet? It's just de rigeur I guess but and she ran across to him and said, I believe you're working on the Ring Cycle. Have you gone over budget yet? It's just de rigeur I guess but
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[Michael] "ah" essentially "um" lost my train of thought [Martin] the hellish flames [Micheal] yes [Martin] Did you have to do them on the cheap?  [Michael] "ah" essentially "um" lost my train of thought [Martin] the hellish flames [Micheal] yes [Martin] Did you have to do them on the cheap? 
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Well no, Noel Staunton came in as I mentioned before, as the executive producer in the final year Well no, Noel Staunton came in as I mentioned before, as the executive producer in the final year
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and Noel, I think one of his great abilities is, shall we say, oiling the wheels and getting people talking and Noel, I think one of his great abilities is, shall we say, oiling the wheels and getting people talking
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and negotiating. Generally there's wine connected to that process. and negotiating. Generally there's wine connected to that process.
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but anyway, "um" but anyway, "um"
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but he's a great communicator and a great melder of people together in bringing them to shoulder to the wheels as it but he's a great communicator and a great melder of people together in bringing them to shoulder to the wheels as it
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were were
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and I think from memory the Line of Fire as a single piece was about somewhere in the vicinity of $300,000 to build. and I think from memory the Line of Fire as a single piece was about somewhere in the vicinity of $300,000 to build.
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It was a massive piece of fire engineering. But It was a massive piece of fire engineering. But
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It also required a lot of things to happen, within the theatre space, so that we could have this naked flame of that volume. It also required a lot of things to happen, within the theatre space, so that we could have this naked flame of that volume.
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And sure enough, Noel, even though we were struggling financially to-to keep vaguely within our budget. And sure enough, Noel, even though we were struggling financially to-to keep vaguely within our budget.
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He managed to make it happen. And I think he absolutely believed that it was the right ending for the piece He managed to make it happen. And I think he absolutely believed that it was the right ending for the piece
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and he was determined to make happen and also because it was potentially so dangerous. and he was determined to make happen and also because it was potentially so dangerous.
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So I think that kind of whet his appetite. So So I think that kind of whet his appetite. So
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and to give you an idea the temperature in the top of the grid when that line of fire was burning was around about and to give you an idea the temperature in the top of the grid when that line of fire was burning was around about
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about seventy degrees. So it really  about seventy degrees. So it really 
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was pumping out a lot of heat was pumping out a lot of heat
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and in fact, the price tag was related to the fact that we had to completely re-plumb the Art Centre for gas 'cause the gas line and in fact, the price tag was related to the fact that we had to completely re-plumb the Art Centre for gas 'cause the gas line
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they had running into the Art Centre wasn't big enough to supply the volume of gas we needed. So it was a major, it was actually a major  they had running into the Art Centre wasn't big enough to supply the volume of gas we needed. So it was a major, it was actually a major 
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structural change. structural change.
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Verify
[Michael] to the building to get the supply of gas that we needed for that moment. [Martin] The budget was some sixteen seventeen million? For the Ring [Michael] "uh" it was [Michael] to the building to get the supply of gas that we needed for that moment. [Martin] The budget was some sixteen seventeen million? For the Ring [Michael] "uh" it was
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about fifteen, started at thirteen and ended up about fifteen. about fifteen, started at thirteen and ended up about fifteen.
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In what way were these, what way were some of your fondest image trimmed by budgetary needs? In what way were these, what way were some of your fondest image trimmed by budgetary needs?
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"ah", well not enormously, there was a, there was a, what I call a series of light portals in Das Rheingold, which I cut "ah", well not enormously, there was a, there was a, what I call a series of light portals in Das Rheingold, which I cut
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but Steve Phillips, who was the "ah" I can't remember his title was something like artistic executive of SOSA, artistic director for want of a better term, but Steve Phillips, who was the "ah" I can't remember his title was something like artistic executive of SOSA, artistic director for want of a better term,
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[Martin] The State Theatre Com, State Opera Company of South Australia [Michael] Yes sorry State Opera. [Martin] The State Theatre Com, State Opera Company of South Australia [Michael] Yes sorry State Opera.
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He.. one of the kind of remarkable things about him, as I mentioned was a staff of four He.. one of the kind of remarkable things about him, as I mentioned was a staff of four
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and here is this guy, somehow convincing people that they were going to do the first Australian Ring Cycle garnering you know Tourism and here is this guy, somehow convincing people that they were going to do the first Australian Ring Cycle garnering you know Tourism
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South Australian and the government and da da da da, to get all of the financial ducks lined up. South Australian and the government and da da da da, to get all of the financial ducks lined up.
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This is a massive undertaking and he went in with four members of staff, you know. Like incredible courage in a way. This is a massive undertaking and he went in with four members of staff, you know. Like incredible courage in a way.
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But he also wouldn't let me cut things, he was determined to have what I had actually presented as the design, more or less But he also wouldn't let me cut things, he was determined to have what I had actually presented as the design, more or less
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[Michael] and "ah" so very little actually got cut away. [Martin] So when we saw the  dragon with the great metal claw it wasn't as if there was once a [Michael] and "ah" so very little actually got cut away. [Martin] So when we saw the  dragon with the great metal claw it wasn't as if there was once a
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vision of a bigger dragon with more claws? vision of a bigger dragon with more claws?
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No, no and that was related back to Fafnir and when you see him in Das Rheingold. No, no and that was related back to Fafnir and when you see him in Das Rheingold.
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[Michael] He has a mechanical hand and it's that hand that ultimately becomes the dragon big big size. [Martin] Oh right. [Michael] So Steven Curtis had made the costume designer [Michael] He has a mechanical hand and it's that hand that ultimately becomes the dragon big big size. [Martin] Oh right. [Michael] So Steven Curtis had made the costume designer
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he had made a mechanical apparatus that fitted over his hand he had made a mechanical apparatus that fitted over his hand
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Verify
that made it as a robotic hand so that's what you saw  large as the dragon that made it as a robotic hand so that's what you saw  large as the dragon
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and you also saw the singer standing next to it singing. So there was no attempt to sort of pretend it was something other and you also saw the singer standing next to it singing. So there was no attempt to sort of pretend it was something other
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it was "ah", it was literately a giant version of that hand. it was "ah", it was literately a giant version of that hand.
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but again that, you know, that was a pretty impressive bit of engineering. And "ah" Stageworld in Melbourne built that and I remember but again that, you know, that was a pretty impressive bit of engineering. And "ah" Stageworld in Melbourne built that and I remember
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going and  going and 
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[Michael] seeing it as a development was like wow that's going to be pretty spectacular [Martin] The press got very excited about the image of [Michael] seeing it as a development was like wow that's going to be pretty spectacular [Martin] The press got very excited about the image of
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[Martin] six hundred helium balloons with which you made a kind of green forest that was multi-hued in greens. [Michael] Yes well [Martin] six hundred helium balloons with which you made a kind of green forest that was multi-hued in greens. [Michael] Yes well
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all I can say is thank goodness for volunteers because every rehearsal a team of volunteers all I can say is thank goodness for volunteers because every rehearsal a team of volunteers
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would come in and assemble the  six hundred and sixty green balloons would come in and assemble the  six hundred and sixty green balloons
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and they all had separate monofilament lines picking them up, so a fishing line picking up the balloon. We had to work out a  and they all had separate monofilament lines picking them up, so a fishing line picking up the balloon. We had to work out a 
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system cos there was a gradient to them so anyway... systems within systems. But again entirely manageable over the twelve system cos there was a gradient to them so anyway... systems within systems. But again entirely manageable over the twelve
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rehearsals and performances that each time that that team came in and "ah" and made it happen for us. rehearsals and performances that each time that that team came in and "ah" and made it happen for us.
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And why, when did you get the idea of doing a forest in balloon? And why, when did you get the idea of doing a forest in balloon?
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Verify
Oh look, Nick and Elke Oh look, Nick and Elke
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[Michael] and I were sitting in her apartment in Perth, I think were doing Il Trovatori or something in Perth and [Martin] This is your great collaboration with [Michael] and I were sitting in her apartment in Perth, I think were doing Il Trovatori or something in Perth and [Martin] This is your great collaboration with
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Nick Schlieper the lighting designer? Nick Schlieper the lighting designer?
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and Elke Neidhardt, yeah. "ah" The vet from Skippy "um" [laughter] the yeah, I mean look it just, I guess I was just mulling over the notion of it and Elke Neidhardt, yeah. "ah" The vet from Skippy "um" [laughter] the yeah, I mean look it just, I guess I was just mulling over the notion of it
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and a lot of the design ... I guess a lot of the design was quite hard edged and I wanted a softness for that forest and a lot of the design ... I guess a lot of the design was quite hard edged and I wanted a softness for that forest
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and the balloons had a beautiful quality of, you know, they were floating, but ah, quite lyrical in a way and the balloons had a beautiful quality of, you know, they were floating, but ah, quite lyrical in a way
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and the thing that actually surprised me and the thing that actually surprised me
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and this is down to Nick 's artistry, is that the balloons looked fabulous and this is down to Nick 's artistry, is that the balloons looked fabulous
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but so did the the fishing lines picking them up. Cause he cross lit the  but so did the the fishing lines picking them up. Cause he cross lit the 
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Verify
[Michael] and six hundred sixty strings [Martin]"ah" he likes cross lighting doesn't he? [Michael] [inaudible] sidelight as he is known in the industry, "ah" so [Michael] and six hundred sixty strings [Martin]"ah" he likes cross lighting doesn't he? [Michael] [inaudible] sidelight as he is known in the industry, "ah" so
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Verify
was "um" was "um"
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and again it was a counterpoint, and I've talked about this a few times, a counterpoint to that hand coming through a iris at the back and again it was a counterpoint, and I've talked about this a few times, a counterpoint to that hand coming through a iris at the back
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of the space, so into this lyrical whimsical forest suddenly there's something quite brutal. of the space, so into this lyrical whimsical forest suddenly there's something quite brutal.
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[Michael] what enters the space.  [Martin] in the "um" [Michael] what enters the space.  [Martin] in the "um"
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and you talked about not being particularly limited, at least you personally, by the sixteen million dollar budget and you talked about not being particularly limited, at least you personally, by the sixteen million dollar budget
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Also, "um" but "um" Also, "um" but "um"
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How did you "um" what cautions kept your imagination under control in terms of other considerations? Like How did you "um" what cautions kept your imagination under control in terms of other considerations? Like
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people, you can't have people getting so awed by the design that they forget the story. people, you can't have people getting so awed by the design that they forget the story.
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[Michael] Oh, well yes you can, [laughter] depends on the story. [Martin] And the designer. [Michael] ah yes that's right. No look I [Michael] Oh, well yes you can, [laughter] depends on the story. [Martin] And the designer. [Michael] ah yes that's right. No look I
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I don't see the world that way I don't see the world that way
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and I see the work that I do going absolutely hand-in-hand with the narrative with telling the story. and I see the work that I do going absolutely hand-in-hand with the narrative with telling the story.
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I hope that there is an ability to have a very arresting image but for it actually be supporting what's happening on the I hope that there is an ability to have a very arresting image but for it actually be supporting what's happening on the
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stage stage
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and I think the Ring cycle is actually a really good example of that. I think it actually all melded together if I do say and I think the Ring cycle is actually a really good example of that. I think it actually all melded together if I do say
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so quite beautifully and a lot of thought  and a lot of patience so quite beautifully and a lot of thought  and a lot of patience
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and a lot of exploration went into getting to that point. and a lot of exploration went into getting to that point.
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[Martin] So people weren't waiting for the event, the climax of yet more fireworks? [Michael] No, no, [Martin] So people weren't waiting for the event, the climax of yet more fireworks? [Michael] No, no,
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I think the fire was absolutely if you know the Ring you know that the rock gets surrounded by fire. If you know the Ring you'll know I think the fire was absolutely if you know the Ring you know that the rock gets surrounded by fire. If you know the Ring you'll know
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Verify
that there's a funeral pyre that has fire at the end. So I mean they are two events where fire occurs in in the story that there's a funeral pyre that has fire at the end. So I mean they are two events where fire occurs in in the story
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and you need to find a solution to that.  I guess the, the one thing that was particularly contentious in terms of the company was the  and you need to find a solution to that.  I guess the, the one thing that was particularly contentious in terms of the company was the 
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Verify
Wonderbra for our and if I occur. Wonderbra for our and if I occur.
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[Martin] This is an interesting setting for the Gods [Michael] yeah well for, for the Valkyries. [Martin] yep when they were "um" [Martin] This is an interesting setting for the Gods [Michael] yeah well for, for the Valkyries. [Martin] yep when they were "um"
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and dressed in quite striking costumes by Stephen Curtis. Quite quite modern "um" [=(inaudible) and dressed in quite striking costumes by Stephen Curtis. Quite quite modern "um" [=(inaudible)
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[Martin] how to describe it. [Michael] silver leather in punks really. [Martin] and the setting? [Martin] how to describe it. [Michael] silver leather in punks really. [Martin] and the setting?
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[Martin] What was the bar? [Michael] Well again this is something that came out of a very close reading ironically of the Libretto [Martin] What was the bar? [Michael] Well again this is something that came out of a very close reading ironically of the Libretto
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and we were reading the description of what was happening and essentially, and I am paraphrasing and we were reading the description of what was happening and essentially, and I am paraphrasing
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but it says, "that after a long day of lifting but it says, "that after a long day of lifting
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and picking up their fallen heroes from the battlefield, the Valkyries retire to the mountain tops and picking up their fallen heroes from the battlefield, the Valkyries retire to the mountain tops
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and they look across the mountain tops and watch the weather coming in". and they look across the mountain tops and watch the weather coming in".
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Verify
So it's a sense of heavy day of lifting, now we're relaxing and we are kind of watching telly So it's a sense of heavy day of lifting, now we're relaxing and we are kind of watching telly
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and so we thought, well first of all, let's unpick this. A fallen hero. What is the ideal male fallen hero? and so we thought, well first of all, let's unpick this. A fallen hero. What is the ideal male fallen hero?
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What is the ideal version of a male body in a way and we went oh What is the ideal version of a male body in a way and we went oh
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well perhaps the statue of David. What are they doing? They're collecting the fallen heroes well perhaps the statue of David. What are they doing? They're collecting the fallen heroes
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Verify
and literally storing them up for (inaudible) in preparation for a future battle armed with (inaudible) and literally storing them up for (inaudible) in preparation for a future battle armed with (inaudible)
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and so what with, we translated that and thought okay statue of David; putting them on ice; and so what with, we translated that and thought okay statue of David; putting them on ice;
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Let's make ice cube Davids and that can be the store of the fallen heroes. Literally putting them on ice. Let's make ice cube Davids and that can be the store of the fallen heroes. Literally putting them on ice.
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and then going back to what the Valkyries are doing.  OK so they're relaxing. What are these girls and then going back to what the Valkyries are doing.  OK so they're relaxing. What are these girls
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want to do? They want to go to a bar. So they go to the Wunderbar. And in the Wunderbar want to do? They want to go to a bar. So they go to the Wunderbar. And in the Wunderbar
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there are nine stools to match the nine Valkyries, and nine television sets playing the weather. So on the television sets, there are nine stools to match the nine Valkyries, and nine television sets playing the weather. So on the television sets,
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we saw Clouds rolling in. So it was a playful interpretation of what was happening we saw Clouds rolling in. So it was a playful interpretation of what was happening
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and I guess this came about because, and again I mentioned before, that Elke had done 4 re-mounts of Rings for other directors and I guess this came about because, and again I mentioned before, that Elke had done 4 re-mounts of Rings for other directors
14:12

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she knew. [Portus] In Germany [Michael] In Germany. In Cologne. So she knew it inside out. And she she knew. [Portus] In Germany [Michael] In Germany. In Cologne. So she knew it inside out. And she
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and what that gave her was an ability to go, 'actually, we can have fun with this section. We'll use that playfulness to then and what that gave her was an ability to go, 'actually, we can have fun with this section. We'll use that playfulness to then
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again that word - counterpoint - to a much more serious moment that happens between Wotan and Brunhilde'. again that word - counterpoint - to a much more serious moment that happens between Wotan and Brunhilde'.
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but you can't, you need to set it up so that you have the foil. So that you can then go to somewhere darker. but you can't, you need to set it up so that you have the foil. So that you can then go to somewhere darker.
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And  Steve Phillips... Hannes Finger who is the men... I mentioned from Opera Australia, who is the head of the workshop And  Steve Phillips... Hannes Finger who is the men... I mentioned from Opera Australia, who is the head of the workshop
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a fabulous, sadly deceased, but a lovely guy, but very, kind of, Germanic, and you know.  a fabulous, sadly deceased, but a lovely guy, but very, kind of, Germanic, and you know. 
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And he came to me one day and he said, 'Michael, I think this is all terrific. You've done a fantastic job. But the Wunderbar is shithouse. And he came to me one day and he said, 'Michael, I think this is all terrific. You've done a fantastic job. But the Wunderbar is shithouse.
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It's kitsch. It's shithouse.' So, of course, he rings Steve Phillips. 'This guy's doing a great job, but the Wunderbar is shit  It's kitsch. It's shithouse.' So, of course, he rings Steve Phillips. 'This guy's doing a great job, but the Wunderbar is shit 
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and kitsch and shithouse.' Anyway, so I get a ring from Steve Phillips: 'please, and kitsch and shithouse.' Anyway, so I get a ring from Steve Phillips: 'please,
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I'm begging you, don't do the Wunderbar. You know, this is the- I'm begging you, don't do the Wunderbar. You know, this is the-
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if there is one piece, the moment that the audience knows, it's the Ride of the Valkyries. Please please please...' and I go 'no, sorry, if there is one piece, the moment that the audience knows, it's the Ride of the Valkyries. Please please please...' and I go 'no, sorry,
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this is happening for good reason.' On the opening performance, it got almost a standing ovation as it rode down stage. this is happening for good reason.' On the opening performance, it got almost a standing ovation as it rode down stage.
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I thought: it's become an iconic moment in the piece I thought: it's become an iconic moment in the piece
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and it's another example where as a designer and as a creative team you have to stick to your guns. If you believe something and it's another example where as a designer and as a creative team you have to stick to your guns. If you believe something
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is right. is right.
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You just have to go there. [Portus] And as you describe it, it seems the perfect signature of the wider signature of Elke You just have to go there. [Portus] And as you describe it, it seems the perfect signature of the wider signature of Elke
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and the whole team to create a production that is playful and new and free from baggage, and Australian. [Michael] Yeah and the whole team to create a production that is playful and new and free from baggage, and Australian. [Michael] Yeah
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and I think was,  you might look at it and think that it has perhaps a European aesthetic and I think was,  you might look at it and think that it has perhaps a European aesthetic
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or a contemporary aesthetic. However you want to couch that. But what it did do is tell that story or a contemporary aesthetic. However you want to couch that. But what it did do is tell that story
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I think, actually in a very Australian way, which is kind of no frills. Right to the heart of it. I think, actually in a very Australian way, which is kind of no frills. Right to the heart of it.
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Let's tell the story cleanly and crisply and clearly. [Portus] Did...speaking of Australian and the world. Let's tell the story cleanly and crisply and clearly. [Portus] Did...speaking of Australian and the world.
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I think we alluded  earlier to your ... well to the great, the great international profile that this production I think we alluded  earlier to your ... well to the great, the great international profile that this production
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gave some people gave some people
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and...but it didn't give you such a career boost, I think you said. [Michael] No, it's still regarded as one of the best three and...but it didn't give you such a career boost, I think you said. [Michael] No, it's still regarded as one of the best three
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Ring Cycles of the last two decades, Ring Cycles of the last two decades,
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which is no mean feat. In fact, the English opera critic - there goes the name again - anyway, a very renowned critic  which is no mean feat. In fact, the English opera critic - there goes the name again - anyway, a very renowned critic 
17:21

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[Portus] Canning? [Michael]  Hugh Canning. Came and saw it and was just cock-a-hoop. Like, totally, cock-a-hoop. Went back to England, and of course, [Portus] Canning? [Michael]  Hugh Canning. Came and saw it and was just cock-a-hoop. Like, totally, cock-a-hoop. Went back to England, and of course,
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unfortunately for the English. unfortunately for the English.
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there was a production that shortly followed the [inaudible]. His comment was 'well, if only you could get it right. there was a production that shortly followed the [inaudible]. His comment was 'well, if only you could get it right.
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like the Australians.' Then another production opened at Covent Garden, and he said the same thing. So he was- and frankly,  like the Australians.' Then another production opened at Covent Garden, and he said the same thing. So he was- and frankly, 
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I wouldn't like to be in that situation. I wouldn't like to be in that situation.
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We being compared to another production. But his point was that we had absolutely got it right every step of the way We being compared to another production. But his point was that we had absolutely got it right every step of the way
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and that those 2 productions in particular hadn't. [Portus] The production, and that those 2 productions in particular hadn't. [Portus] The production,
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We should note in passing one you Hellman award for Best said. We should note in passing one you Hellman award for Best said.
18:01

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Unsurprisingly, Unsurprisingly,
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Were you ambitious for overseas gigs?  It's not something that you seem to have pursued. [Michael] No I don't... my feeling about that is,  Were you ambitious for overseas gigs?  It's not something that you seem to have pursued. [Michael] No I don't... my feeling about that is, 
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'I'll go overseas when the offers come and not worry about it in the eye.' I am- look, touch wood, 'I'll go overseas when the offers come and not worry about it in the eye.' I am- look, touch wood,
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I have been working since 1984. I have never stopped working since 1984. Ever. So I'm blessed, I have been working since 1984. I have never stopped working since 1984. Ever. So I'm blessed,
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I guess, in that sense. And, you know, if something fabulous comes up overseas, as it has, doing Broadway, doing Doha, doing I guess, in that sense. And, you know, if something fabulous comes up overseas, as it has, doing Broadway, doing Doha, doing
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things all over the place, but they're kind of places you go to for 2 months, 3 months.  things all over the place, but they're kind of places you go to for 2 months, 3 months. 
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I much prefer doing it that way and then coming back to home base and... I much prefer doing it that way and then coming back to home base and...
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[Portus] You ... I suppose one of the reasons why you have been employed for such a long time [Portus] You ... I suppose one of the reasons why you have been employed for such a long time
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There is the variety of the roles you have added. There is the variety of the roles you have added.
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and The Olympics did light up opportunities in designing big events, didn't it? [Michael] It did. [Portus] We should talk about that for a while. and The Olympics did light up opportunities in designing big events, didn't it? [Michael] It did. [Portus] We should talk about that for a while.
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Beginning with what appealed to you about designing. What seems a rather dry event, the opening of the Commonwealth Heads of Beginning with what appealed to you about designing. What seems a rather dry event, the opening of the Commonwealth Heads of
19:21

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Government meeting in 2002, which you did again in 2011 Government meeting in 2002, which you did again in 2011
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in Perth. Why that gig? [Michael] Well, needless to say, there is a story connected with that. in Perth. Why that gig? [Michael] Well, needless to say, there is a story connected with that.
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When I was a young designer, I worked on the Schools Spectacular in the Entertainment Centre When I was a young designer, I worked on the Schools Spectacular in the Entertainment Centre
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and whilst I was down on the floor with, you know,  and whilst I was down on the floor with, you know, 
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two and a half thousand school students, I had bumped into a guy who was a PE teacher, and was wrangling the students, two and a half thousand school students, I had bumped into a guy who was a PE teacher, and was wrangling the students,
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and we would chat on the floor and sort of became quite good friends. And he said, 'look, I am thinking of starting an event company and we would chat on the floor and sort of became quite good friends. And he said, 'look, I am thinking of starting an event company
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and and
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when I do, you're going to design everything that we do.' And I thought, 'oh, yeah, sure, ok. And I think there's almost not a year since that time when I do, you're going to design everything that we do.' And I thought, 'oh, yeah, sure, ok. And I think there's almost not a year since that time
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that I haven't design something for this company called Great Big Events. [Portus] Great? [Michael] Great Big Events. And so true to his word. that I haven't design something for this company called Great Big Events. [Portus] Great? [Michael] Great Big Events. And so true to his word.
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He did exactly that. It's a very successful international event company. He did exactly that. It's a very successful international event company.
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Their bread-and-butter is essentially doing content for the athl... for the sports venues. So if there's swimming, they do the video Their bread-and-butter is essentially doing content for the athl... for the sports venues. So if there's swimming, they do the video
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content. content.
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They do set up the sound systems. They do that at every Olympics, at every games. They are They do set up the sound systems. They do that at every Olympics, at every games. They are
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masters in that particular little niche. But they also - every year, or every two years - do a fairly major event masters in that particular little niche. But they also - every year, or every two years - do a fairly major event
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and they always bring me in to do, to design those pieces. For example, you know, FIFA World Congress in the Concert Hall, huge set, and they always bring me in to do, to design those pieces. For example, you know, FIFA World Congress in the Concert Hall, huge set,
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put in just for one day so that the Prime Minister, and put in just for one day so that the Prime Minister, and
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the head of FIFA could go on stage and have a [inaudible] to the two and a half thousand people that were there to decide about the head of FIFA could go on stage and have a [inaudible] to the two and a half thousand people that were there to decide about
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where FIFA was and the game was going next. Like, serious money was involved.  [Portus] And for example, briefly on that, what did you have in the background?  where FIFA was and the game was going next. Like, serious money was involved.  [Portus] And for example, briefly on that, what did you have in the background? 
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In the background was a million-dollar set, In the background was a million-dollar set,
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so... [Portus] Suggesting what? [Michael] It was a very large LED screen that cracked open, and a truck drove downstage to the band, and essentially it was a  so... [Portus] Suggesting what? [Michael] It was a very large LED screen that cracked open, and a truck drove downstage to the band, and essentially it was a 
21:44

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large machine. large machine.
21:45

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Again are which some looked simple from the front, but actually did a lot of things semantically Again are which some looked simple from the front, but actually did a lot of things semantically
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And- but particularly, and it's kind of signature of this company that it had  great opportunities for a very And- but particularly, and it's kind of signature of this company that it had  great opportunities for a very
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complex and, and graphically diverse package that complex and, and graphically diverse package that
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went onto the screen. So, I develop the architecture of the screen went onto the screen. So, I develop the architecture of the screen
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and then they worked with another company that they work with quite often to develop the content. and then they worked with another company that they work with quite often to develop the content.
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[Portus] And when you had this truck coming through the screen? [Michael] The screen was trucked and it parted [Portus] And when you had this truck coming through the screen? [Michael] The screen was trucked and it parted
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and that sounds like a very simple thing, but this is a big screen, a big LED screen and that sounds like a very simple thing, but this is a big screen, a big LED screen
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and to get the precision for an LED screens, kiss again and to get the precision for an LED screens, kiss again
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or split, requires really serious engineering. [Portus] And how did you put the focus on what your task was, which was to give focus to those two or split, requires really serious engineering. [Portus] And how did you put the focus on what your task was, which was to give focus to those two
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leaders. [Michael] Well, that's to do with what's happening on the screen at that given moment, leaders. [Michael] Well, that's to do with what's happening on the screen at that given moment,
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so you tend to move into a less dynamic moment. It might be a rippling flag or something fairly inert, so you tend to move into a less dynamic moment. It might be a rippling flag or something fairly inert,
22:58

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and then obviously, lighting focuses on those two people. But they also had- and then obviously, lighting focuses on those two people. But they also had-
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There were two speakers' podiums which were internally-lit crescent-shaped acrylic tubes that came up through the There were two speakers' podiums which were internally-lit crescent-shaped acrylic tubes that came up through the
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floor. So, a hatch opened and  floor. So, a hatch opened and 
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these were hydraulically driven up. Yeah, so... [Portus] So, what did you do for the Commonwealth  these were hydraulically driven up. Yeah, so... [Portus] So, what did you do for the Commonwealth 
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Heads of Government meeting in 2002? [Michael] 2002 was...it was relatively simple, Heads of Government meeting in 2002? [Michael] 2002 was...it was relatively simple,
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but it was a piece that I designed, I think, three times, because this was following various catastrophes that had happened  but it was a piece that I designed, I think, three times, because this was following various catastrophes that had happened 
23:45

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around the planet, and  they were nervous about gathering all of these heads together. So  the first design I did was in a hotel in on around the planet, and  they were nervous about gathering all of these heads together. So  the first design I did was in a hotel in on
23:52

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the Gold Coast. the Gold Coast.
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They then decided that was too much of a Security risk. They moved  somewhere else and we finally ended up They then decided that was too much of a Security risk. They moved  somewhere else and we finally ended up
23:58

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in a tent, of all things, at a golf resort [Portus] As the site for the meeting? in a tent, of all things, at a golf resort [Portus] As the site for the meeting?
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Yes, so they actually ended up moving right out of the cities Yes, so they actually ended up moving right out of the cities
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and into the countryside, and to this resort. And one of my tasks was to build a support for the Queen's chalice, which is used  and into the countryside, and to this resort. And one of my tasks was to build a support for the Queen's chalice, which is used 
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to open the the proceedings. And I was saying to them, 'Look, you need to let me have a look at this to open the the proceedings. And I was saying to them, 'Look, you need to let me have a look at this
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and make some measurements, so that I can actually work out how to support it.' and make some measurements, so that I can actually work out how to support it.'
24:31

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All this was like, it went on for months and months. Then finally I was  taken by the Queen's  right-hand woman, All this was like, it went on for months and months. Then finally I was  taken by the Queen's  right-hand woman,
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whatever that term is, and down corridors, back corridors, and we finally arrived in a bathroom. whatever that term is, and down corridors, back corridors, and we finally arrived in a bathroom.
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And in the bathroom, on the floor And in the bathroom, on the floor
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The bathroom was a wooden box and inside the wooden box was the chalice, not the chalice. The bathroom was a wooden box and inside the wooden box was the chalice, not the chalice.
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The mace. And which is a very ornate gold piece with the  The mace. And which is a very ornate gold piece with the 
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enamel flags of every country that is in the Commonwealth.  And I said, 'But the top of it is dented. How did that happen?' enamel flags of every country that is in the Commonwealth.  And I said, 'But the top of it is dented. How did that happen?'
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And they said, 'Oh, we were in, and I won't mention the country, and they used it as a cricket bat.' And  And they said, 'Oh, we were in, and I won't mention the country, and they used it as a cricket bat.' And 
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what is the term for the Queen's... I can't remember the term. Anyway, and she said, and the Queen said, 'What a pity we don't have beheadings what is the term for the Queen's... I can't remember the term. Anyway, and she said, and the Queen said, 'What a pity we don't have beheadings
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any more.' [laughter] But I just thought it was ironic that it had taken me two months to actually be able to touch this thing. any more.' [laughter] But I just thought it was ironic that it had taken me two months to actually be able to touch this thing.
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[Portus] And did the mace have a role then, in your set? [Michael] Yes, [Portus] And did the mace have a role then, in your set? [Michael] Yes,
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I had to design a stand for it, but essentially that tdook-  I had to design a stand for it, but essentially that tdook- 
25:44

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took...that takes... is essentially in front of the Queen, as a rule, took...that takes... is essentially in front of the Queen, as a rule,
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and it's all related to the etiquette of how that's all set up. And I, and  and it's all related to the etiquette of how that's all set up. And I, and 
25:53

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again, I think it was 2011, I did it in Perth. And the security around that object was even more severe again, I think it was 2011, I did it in Perth. And the security around that object was even more severe
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and there was a, like, and there was a, like,
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There are about ten policeman standing around at any time. There are about ten policeman standing around at any time.
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[Portus] and then behind these particular setups with the Mace and the Queen [Portus] and then behind these particular setups with the Mace and the Queen
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what are you designing behind with ...in 2011? [Michael] Look, that sort of work tends what are you designing behind with ...in 2011? [Michael] Look, that sort of work tends
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in those sort of things, it  tends to be a large platform with the backing of some description in those sort of things, it  tends to be a large platform with the backing of some description
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whether it be LED or something else. Thinking about the seating arrangements: so do the heads of government have to be whether it be LED or something else. Thinking about the seating arrangements: so do the heads of government have to be
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seated on stage. The Queen 's position. The more recent one... seated on stage. The Queen 's position. The more recent one...
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She had developed concerns about people seeing her legs. She had developed concerns about people seeing her legs.
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so I had to essentially do a modesty screen for her. I mean, they are quite big design pieces so I had to essentially do a modesty screen for her. I mean, they are quite big design pieces
26:50

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but they tend to be... that had quite a strong graphic quality to it. [Portus] So, many of us sort of set up designs on stage but they tend to be... that had quite a strong graphic quality to it. [Portus] So, many of us sort of set up designs on stage
26:59

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and arranged chairs and arranged chairs
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and people sitting in those kind of formal settings.  Did you do this with some innovation, presumably you did. [Michael] It  and people sitting in those kind of formal settings.  Did you do this with some innovation, presumably you did. [Michael] It 
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looked fabulous of course. You know, it's not ,,, I have to say  looked fabulous of course. You know, it's not ,,, I have to say 
27:14

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sometimes... I find those those particular sort of events, I I adore great big events  sometimes... I find those those particular sort of events, I I adore great big events 
27:26

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but there is a point where you kind of go, I'm just going to lie back and think of the money because frankly this is much harder than it needs to be but there is a point where you kind of go, I'm just going to lie back and think of the money because frankly this is much harder than it needs to be
27:34

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and it's not, it's not that company. It's the fact that you are.... You have a client. And the client. and it's not, it's not that company. It's the fact that you are.... You have a client. And the client.
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Unlike theatre is going... yes now I want to see it in blue, now I want to see it in red, now I want to see this.. Unlike theatre is going... yes now I want to see it in blue, now I want to see it in red, now I want to see this..
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and is it it you become a functionary rather than analysis and is it it you become a functionary rather than analysis
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in a way. [Portus]  Was it the same then moving on to a very big gig the 15th Asian Games in 2006  in a way. [Portus]  Was it the same then moving on to a very big gig the 15th Asian Games in 2006 
27:58

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in Doha. So you were working with director David Atkins, [Michael] yeah  in Doha. So you were working with director David Atkins, [Michael] yeah 
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and you had surely this must have been your biggest commission? A hundred and thirty? hundred and fifty million? [Michael] hundred and fifty  and you had surely this must have been your biggest commission? A hundred and thirty? hundred and fifty million? [Michael] hundred and fifty 
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[Portus] A hundred and fifty million? [Michael] yes [Portus] That's a good time to lie back [Portus] A hundred and fifty million? [Michael] yes [Portus] That's a good time to lie back
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and think of the money. [Michael] Yes yes. No there's that,. No that was an interesting gig because David was in and think of the money. [Michael] Yes yes. No there's that,. No that was an interesting gig because David was in
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Doha and I was in Sydney, designing lots Doha and I was in Sydney, designing lots
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and lots of different things. One of the cultural sections, I was designing a number of stages, quite a few stages actually. We build a and lots of different things. One of the cultural sections, I was designing a number of stages, quite a few stages actually. We build a
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three-storey concrete bunker, three-storey concrete bunker,
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if you like, underneath the field of play, that had various sets that I had designed that would come out onto a lift and then be brought up if you like, underneath the field of play, that had various sets that I had designed that would come out onto a lift and then be brought up
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to the field of play. [Portus] Was this for one ceremony? In one place?  [Michael] One ceremony yeah.  In Doha. And a kind of an incredible thing to be involved in to the field of play. [Portus] Was this for one ceremony? In one place?  [Michael] One ceremony yeah.  In Doha. And a kind of an incredible thing to be involved in
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but I started, just to give you an idea, I started in May of 2005 to design it but I started, just to give you an idea, I started in May of 2005 to design it
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We handed over the designs at Christmas of that year. And I had been essentially doing e-mails at six a.m, going to bed at  We handed over the designs at Christmas of that year. And I had been essentially doing e-mails at six a.m, going to bed at 
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three a.m. for that entire period. And there's a guy that I work with, in fact who is now working with me on the Brunei Project, a guy called Andrew Chan three a.m. for that entire period. And there's a guy that I work with, in fact who is now working with me on the Brunei Project, a guy called Andrew Chan
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He is absent Wizard on the recover software. He is absent Wizard on the recover software.
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You can poke stick at. But we had had an intense working relationship for probably about four months You can poke stick at. But we had had an intense working relationship for probably about four months
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and in oh speaking and I were on the phone about twenty times a day and in oh speaking and I were on the phone about twenty times a day
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and e-mails and whatever. And after 4 months I thought I've never  actually met you, and I don't know what you look like. So it was entirely virtual and e-mails and whatever. And after 4 months I thought I've never  actually met you, and I don't know what you look like. So it was entirely virtual
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relationship. But ...anyway. relationship. But ...anyway.
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but the... what it also gave me the opportunity to do was to design another  cauldron but the... what it also gave me the opportunity to do was to design another  cauldron
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and so I think there is at least one more in me to make three. But that also is now on permanent display in Doha and so I think there is at least one more in me to make three. But that also is now on permanent display in Doha
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and it related back to various themes that I was exploring to do with that  development of science and it related back to various themes that I was exploring to do with that  development of science
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and the inventions that had been created in that part of the world that then led on to other developments and explorations  and the inventions that had been created in that part of the world that then led on to other developments and explorations 
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[Portus] Historically? [Michael] Yes So it was a kind of fascinating journey [Portus] Where did... what did you do with the money? [Portus] Historically? [Michael] Yes So it was a kind of fascinating journey [Portus] Where did... what did you do with the money?
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Where did that show? [Michael] Well you'd be very surprised. That they were very complex pieces of machinery. So for Where did that show? [Michael] Well you'd be very surprised. That they were very complex pieces of machinery. So for
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example we decided that the way even but, example we decided that the way even but,
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to light the cauldron was for the head of, the captain of the Equestrian team who just happened to be the Emir's youngest son, that we to light the cauldron was for the head of, the captain of the Equestrian team who just happened to be the Emir's youngest son, that we
31:00

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would get him to ride up, the one of , the side of the Stadium and twenty-six and half degree ramp, for a horse to ride, on horseback would get him to ride up, the one of , the side of the Stadium and twenty-six and half degree ramp, for a horse to ride, on horseback
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and so we purchased three Arab horses in Australia because of course we actually breed the best Arab horses and so we purchased three Arab horses in Australia because of course we actually breed the best Arab horses
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ironically. And out of the three, two were selected the best to go to Doha. And Malibu, ironically. And out of the three, two were selected the best to go to Doha. And Malibu,
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the hero horse was the one that was trained. In fact in Doha in the desert were built three hills. A little the hero horse was the one that was trained. In fact in Doha in the desert were built three hills. A little
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hill, a medium hill and a big   hill, a medium hill and a big  
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hill. and so [Portus] For the horse to  hill. and so [Portus] For the horse to 
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practice on, running up and down?  [Michael] These three horses practised for six months to develop their hindquarters to be able to deal with running up a twenty six and a half degree gradient. practice on, running up and down?  [Michael] These three horses practised for six months to develop their hindquarters to be able to deal with running up a twenty six and a half degree gradient.
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But that cauldron alone was more than the cost of the Ring Cycle. And built in Montréal  But that cauldron alone was more than the cost of the Ring Cycle. And built in Montréal 
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a pretty serious piece of engineering. [Portus] The World Youth Day in 2008 a pretty serious piece of engineering. [Portus] The World Youth Day in 2008
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and eight armoured DNA are working to the Vatican arm, a hundred and eight armoured DNA are working to the Vatican arm, a hundred
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and forty thousand pilgrims are coming to Sydney. A billion people watching it on television. Tell us about how you used and forty thousand pilgrims are coming to Sydney. A billion people watching it on television. Tell us about how you used
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how you approached that that the Sydney sites used as the eight stations of the loss before Christ's crucifixion how you approached that that the Sydney sites used as the eight stations of the loss before Christ's crucifixion
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[Michael] Yeah. [Portus] Which you staged at  [Michael] Yeah. [Portus] Which you staged at 
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Barangaroo. [Michael] Well essentially the sites were pretty much in place by the time I came on board. Although I determined Barangaroo. [Michael] Well essentially the sites were pretty much in place by the time I came on board. Although I determined
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where the reset if you like, we can go on each size, where the reset if you like, we can go on each size,
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but I worked with a director called Father Franco who who really a delightful guy. In fact I I spoke to him again just the other day but I worked with a director called Father Franco who who really a delightful guy. In fact I I spoke to him again just the other day
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looking for a crucifix. Delightful guy. The organisation that was put in place to run the thing were a little bit at sixes and sevens  looking for a crucifix. Delightful guy. The organisation that was put in place to run the thing were a little bit at sixes and sevens 
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seven so it was, can only be described as chaos. seven so it was, can only be described as chaos.
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actually. It... I thought it would never happen. In fact on the day of the the moment it was actually going to happen, I thought it actually. It... I thought it would never happen. In fact on the day of the the moment it was actually going to happen, I thought it
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just isn't going to work. [Portus]What from Rome to Sydney - too many bosses? [Michael] Yeah I think partly. I mean there are some interesting parts  to that just isn't going to work. [Portus]What from Rome to Sydney - too many bosses? [Michael] Yeah I think partly. I mean there are some interesting parts  to that
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example that was fictional state, example that was fictional state,
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place at Barangaroo. They, as in the management, wanted it to be at the centre of Barangaroo place at Barangaroo. They, as in the management, wanted it to be at the centre of Barangaroo
33:38

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and [Portus] That's about whether casino would be about now. [Michael] Yeah and [Portus] That's about whether casino would be about now. [Michael] Yeah
33:41

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and I I said but why would you put it ... OK you've got a crowd of sixty thousand or something here, but it's going live to the planet. and I I said but why would you put it ... OK you've got a crowd of sixty thousand or something here, but it's going live to the planet.
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Why would you put in central site Why would you put in central site
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when if you move it around the side, you can get a camera shot looking at the Opera House and the Harbour Bridge. What's the point of being on the when if you move it around the side, you can get a camera shot looking at the Opera House and the Harbour Bridge. What's the point of being on the
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harbour in Sydney. harbour in Sydney.
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If you're not actually picking up the iconic things that are there. So this caused huge ructions and had to go to the Pope If you're not actually picking up the iconic things that are there. So this caused huge ructions and had to go to the Pope
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to decide where it should [Portus] Pope Benedict at that stage? [Michael] Yeah and decide where it should go. And of course he he thankfully decided with my point of view. But to decide where it should [Portus] Pope Benedict at that stage? [Michael] Yeah and decide where it should go. And of course he he thankfully decided with my point of view. But
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when I came to the to the site to go, well thank goodness day we've got it there da da da ...  well what had the management done in terms of the edge of when I came to the to the site to go, well thank goodness day we've got it there da da da ...  well what had the management done in terms of the edge of
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the harbour? So in other words you've got Christ dying on the cross looking across we can see the camera view of the Opera house and the the harbour? So in other words you've got Christ dying on the cross looking across we can see the camera view of the Opera house and the
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Harbour Bridge. Harbour Bridge.
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What would you put on in the foreground if you were the management? About three hundred portaloos! What would you put on in the foreground if you were the management? About three hundred portaloos!
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And that was the kind of just bizarre bizarre bizarre thinking that went into lots of things. [Portus] Weren't you originally And that was the kind of just bizarre bizarre bizarre thinking that went into lots of things. [Portus] Weren't you originally
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intending to stage the crucifixion on on water? On Cockle Bay?  [Michael] Yes it was ... I had done one of my [inaudible] big set intending to stage the crucifixion on on water? On Cockle Bay?  [Michael] Yes it was ... I had done one of my [inaudible] big set
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designs. A floating a floating Hill, Crucifixion Hill designs. A floating a floating Hill, Crucifixion Hill
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and well this was another bizarre thing, they I said well what's the budget for this gig? and well this was another bizarre thing, they I said well what's the budget for this gig?
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and: No no we don't want restrict you. Yes yes but what is... gimme some guidelines and: No no we don't want restrict you. Yes yes but what is... gimme some guidelines
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No no no you just go for it. So I designed the whole gig and I invited many manufacturers that I had worked with, No no no you just go for it. So I designed the whole gig and I invited many manufacturers that I had worked with,
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including the Ring cycle. The Ring cycle we contracted 22 companies. so including the Ring cycle. The Ring cycle we contracted 22 companies. so
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I really knew who was around within Australia enters fabrication I really knew who was around within Australia enters fabrication
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and I invited some these people to a presentation in Sydney to start the ball rolling in terms of getting a costing. As I  and I invited some these people to a presentation in Sydney to start the ball rolling in terms of getting a costing. As I 
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and they were friends,  you know and many of them had flown there themselves at their own cost, and they were friends,  you know and many of them had flown there themselves at their own cost,
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and as we're starting the meeting, literally as I'm about start presenting the design, one of the people from the organisation came in and as we're starting the meeting, literally as I'm about start presenting the design, one of the people from the organisation came in
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and handed me a folded up little bit of paper and said: the budget is X and handed me a folded up little bit of paper and said: the budget is X
36:17

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and the Crucifixion Hill alone was three times what was written on this paper. And I just had to turn to them all and say: Look I'm sorry  and the Crucifixion Hill alone was three times what was written on this paper. And I just had to turn to them all and say: Look I'm sorry 
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bushwalk hereunder. bushwalk hereunder.
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 because they don't have the money. So it was this bizarre you know - go for it - but actually we've only got this amount of money,  because they don't have the money. So it was this bizarre you know - go for it - but actually we've only got this amount of money,
36:37

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but some we but some we
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and in the end we actually managed to piece it together. There was a hilarious beginning to the whole thing because the Last and in the end we actually managed to piece it together. There was a hilarious beginning to the whole thing because the Last
36:49

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Supper was staged on the steps of St Mary 's, and I think we were five minutes Supper was staged on the steps of St Mary 's, and I think we were five minutes
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or less before the cameras rolling line or less before the cameras rolling line
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and Father Franco and I were sitting there thinking: yes there's the cast, it's all looking good.  Around the corner, up the stairs come three hundred and Father Franco and I were sitting there thinking: yes there's the cast, it's all looking good.  Around the corner, up the stairs come three hundred
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choirboys in white gowns, led by a Father who says: Where would you like the choirboys? choirboys in white gowns, led by a Father who says: Where would you like the choirboys?
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and Father Franco just went white, literally, like complete panic. And they said: come on come on and Father Franco just went white, literally, like complete panic. And they said: come on come on
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would just arrange them on the steps would just arrange them on the steps
37:27

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but that was sort of thing that was happening [Portus] You weren't expecting them? [Michael] Had no idea. [Portus] Suddenly there were 300 choir boys at the Last Supper but that was sort of thing that was happening [Portus] You weren't expecting them? [Michael] Had no idea. [Portus] Suddenly there were 300 choir boys at the Last Supper
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three hundred choirboys at three minutes to midnight. And that was repeating and repeating three hundred choirboys at three minutes to midnight. And that was repeating and repeating
37:39

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and repeating and then I thought this is just not going to happen. So the next part of this equation was that Father Franco and repeating and then I thought this is just not going to happen. So the next part of this equation was that Father Franco
37:48

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had been saying to me: how would you like to view the event? You could go to the Convention Centre had been saying to me: how would you like to view the event? You could go to the Convention Centre
37:54

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and sit in the Bishops and is on screen is there anything. What bishops or if you'd like to. and sit in the Bishops and is on screen is there anything. What bishops or if you'd like to.
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You could walk with me. Because he was going to do the walk. So I said well actually I'd love to do it with you. So let's do the walk.   You could walk with me. Because he was going to do the walk. So I said well actually I'd love to do it with you. So let's do the walk.  
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Anyway, so we get to start filming, and the party heading off from St Mary's and there's Cardinal Pell and  Anyway, so we get to start filming, and the party heading off from St Mary's and there's Cardinal Pell and 
38:16

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and the official top rankers and then back to Father Franco and me and off we go. and the official top rankers and then back to Father Franco and me and off we go.
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And from the sidelines in the crowd there are people saying: Michael get out of the shot! Get out of the shot! And I'm going: I'm just here with Father Franco And from the sidelines in the crowd there are people saying: Michael get out of the shot! Get out of the shot! And I'm going: I'm just here with Father Franco
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But anyway there were only about twelve people in that line up. And I thought... in hindsight, it must have looked very odd with me wandering down the road with But anyway there were only about twelve people in that line up. And I thought... in hindsight, it must have looked very odd with me wandering down the road with
38:40

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Father Franco but so I did pull out a certain point And the bizarre thing is, it went like clockwork. Father Franco but so I did pull out a certain point And the bizarre thing is, it went like clockwork.
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and I just thought: How is this happening? And by that I mean, every single thing that was potentially disastrous and I just thought: How is this happening? And by that I mean, every single thing that was potentially disastrous
38:59

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not only worked, worked but worked really well. Right down to ...at the crucifixion site not only worked, worked but worked really well. Right down to ...at the crucifixion site
39:07

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There was this fabulous Atmos in the background of Christ on the Cross. And I thought, where on earth is that coming from? There was this fabulous Atmos in the background of Christ on the Cross. And I thought, where on earth is that coming from?
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It was the diesel generator creating diesel fumes like.... this just isn't happening. It was the diesel generator creating diesel fumes like.... this just isn't happening.
39:21

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It's like...[Portus] But somehow the sound was appropriate ? [Michael] Well the sound had been muffled but there was diesel fumes in the air. So if he hadn't  It's like...[Portus] But somehow the sound was appropriate ? [Michael] Well the sound had been muffled but there was diesel fumes in the air. So if he hadn't 
39:28

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been .... died from whatever  been .... died from whatever 
39:30

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Whatever it would've... [Portus] You speak about the financial pressures and dis-organisational pressures, if you like, Whatever it would've... [Portus] You speak about the financial pressures and dis-organisational pressures, if you like,
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but were there theological pressures on you to interpret these Stations of the Cross along the way? but were there theological pressures on you to interpret these Stations of the Cross along the way?
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Look, I think I think there is a hockey is a bit of publicity. Look, I think I think there is a hockey is a bit of publicity.
39:53

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but when My background in being but when My background in being
39:56

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and we've talked about that, about my family's involvement in the Church of England, and the High Church of England and so this is, I  and we've talked about that, about my family's involvement in the Church of England, and the High Church of England and so this is, I 
40:03

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was very familiar with this territory. was very familiar with this territory.
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I was McCarthy, but I didn't know all the stuff backwards and I'm not a practising Christian, but I it was in my blood. I was McCarthy, but I didn't know all the stuff backwards and I'm not a practising Christian, but I it was in my blood.
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So so Father Franco and I were right in there and on same page. So so Father Franco and I were right in there and on same page.
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So I knew the story shall we say? [Portus] And you are a sucker for  rituals you said. [Michael]  Sucker for rituals. My good friend  So I knew the story shall we say? [Portus] And you are a sucker for  rituals you said. [Michael]  Sucker for rituals. My good friend 
40:30

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Richard Cotterell said: Why on earth are you working you know for the Catholic Church? Richard Cotterell said: Why on earth are you working you know for the Catholic Church?
40:37

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Oh well alright,  you have children, you have to pay for the sand shoes I guess. I'll let it through this time. But speaking of sand shoes  Oh well alright,  you have children, you have to pay for the sand shoes I guess. I'll let it through this time. But speaking of sand shoes 
40:43

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I actually had a special pass that would allow me fluff the Pope 's slippers if I needed to. Which  I actually had a special pass that would allow me fluff the Pope 's slippers if I needed to. Which 
40:51

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was highly likely because he went everywhere with a with a kitten that was moulting.  But  was highly likely because he went everywhere with a with a kitten that was moulting.  But 
40:57

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anyway, I mean it was a truly bizarre [Portus] Pope Benedict carried a kitten? [Michael] yes he loved cats. And so anyway, I mean it was a truly bizarre [Portus] Pope Benedict carried a kitten? [Michael] yes he loved cats. And so
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when he arrived, they gave him a kitten which he would carry everywhere.  Yeah look it,  it's just one of the more bizarre when he arrived, they gave him a kitten which he would carry everywhere.  Yeah look it,  it's just one of the more bizarre
41:14

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things I have been through and it somehow came together. things I have been through and it somehow came together.
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We talked in our first interview about theatre design in the 90s, and you did so much of that. A lot of these events in the We talked in our first interview about theatre design in the 90s, and you did so much of that. A lot of these events in the
41:24

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in the twenties, in the in the noughties. How did you  in the twenties, in the in the noughties. How did you 
41:28

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but also in that period from 2000, in particular, you did a lot of opera. I just wondered how you might but also in that period from 2000, in particular, you did a lot of opera. I just wondered how you might
41:38

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generalise about how your approach to designing opera changed since the huge climax of The Ring in this period generalise about how your approach to designing opera changed since the huge climax of The Ring in this period
41:46

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when you were designing so many operas, and arguably the form of Opera is changing was well. when you were designing so many operas, and arguably the form of Opera is changing was well.
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Look, part of the answer that question is that there is a different management now at Opera Australia, Look, part of the answer that question is that there is a different management now at Opera Australia,
42:01

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which is where I  mainly work. I think Lyndon has a very particular view on what his audiences want to see which is where I  mainly work. I think Lyndon has a very particular view on what his audiences want to see
42:10

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and he [Portus] This is Lyndon Terracini the Artistic Director? [Michael] Yes he he very strongly guides... I'm not saying tells you what to design  and he [Portus] This is Lyndon Terracini the Artistic Director? [Michael] Yes he he very strongly guides... I'm not saying tells you what to design 
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although I will talk about Onchan. although I will talk about Onchan.
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He did. He's rightly or wrongly, he has his own very strong opinions He did. He's rightly or wrongly, he has his own very strong opinions
42:31

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and he is trying to fit to what he perceives as an audience. and he is trying to fit to what he perceives as an audience.
42:37

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I would say, on the whole, the work is more conservative than it was in the 90s. I would say, on the whole, the work is more conservative than it was in the 90s.
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And my first opera was Tannhauser with Elke. When I look back at that and think that's that was a very adventurous design And my first opera was Tannhauser with Elke. When I look back at that and think that's that was a very adventurous design
42:59

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and now .. well if we jump cut to the piece I was just talking about with Lynden, John Bell and I were asked to do Tosca and now .. well if we jump cut to the piece I was just talking about with Lynden, John Bell and I were asked to do Tosca
43:08

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and [Portus] I think you talked about this in our first interview and how you had to come back and [Portus] I think you talked about this in our first interview and how you had to come back
43:16

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and make a more conventional church [Michael} Yes that's right side, so I guess I'm using  that by way of comparison. To be fair to Lyndon, and make a more conventional church [Michael} Yes that's right side, so I guess I'm using  that by way of comparison. To be fair to Lyndon,
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the audiences of Apsley loved it, but it is much more conservative take on in what one piece of scenery is the audiences of Apsley loved it, but it is much more conservative take on in what one piece of scenery is
43:33

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and what it can do. And I look at the and what it can do. And I look at the
43:35

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I look at the photos of the Ring Cycle I look at the photos of the Ring Cycle
43:38

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and look at much of the work I am now doing in Opera, and well these are poles apart in terms of their... there is always a and look at much of the work I am now doing in Opera, and well these are poles apart in terms of their... there is always a
43:47

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Michael Scott-Mitchell driving the overall aesthetic, but they're much more, much less adventurous in many ways Michael Scott-Mitchell driving the overall aesthetic, but they're much more, much less adventurous in many ways
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?inaudible? Gibson my very dear friend who is head of directing said: yes  ?inaudible? Gibson my very dear friend who is head of directing said: yes 
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but darling you are in your beauty stage.  I feel like it's like  putting cucumbers on your eyes or something [Portus] What's  that for a but darling you are in your beauty stage.  I feel like it's like  putting cucumbers on your eyes or something [Portus] What's  that for a
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designer, the beauty stage? [Michael]  I think it's just his way of saying the work you are doing, designer, the beauty stage? [Michael]  I think it's just his way of saying the work you are doing,
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particularly for the opera is beautifully crafted but it's it's handsome looking design particularly for the opera is beautifully crafted but it's it's handsome looking design
44:19

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and it's not necessarily conceptually robust in the way that the earlier work was. Because.. [Portus] And there was happening and it's not necessarily conceptually robust in the way that the earlier work was. Because.. [Portus] And there was happening
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 in the nineties? [Michael] Yes and I don't think I'm alone in that at all. I mean I think there is a  in the nineties? [Michael] Yes and I don't think I'm alone in that at all. I mean I think there is a
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It does concern me that a section of the theatre going audience it's like they have an appetite for seeing real things It does concern me that a section of the theatre going audience it's like they have an appetite for seeing real things
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real architecture real whatever it might be. Maybe it just makes them feel more comfortable real architecture real whatever it might be. Maybe it just makes them feel more comfortable
44:51

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but it's certainly not getting them to think outside the square and confront difficult ideas. but it's certainly not getting them to think outside the square and confront difficult ideas.
44:58

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Although of course you can be artful in the way that  you explore that.  I think I think conceptually the good thing about Although of course you can be artful in the way that  you explore that.  I think I think conceptually the good thing about
45:06

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Tosca and resetting it in Rome in '43 with the Nazi occupation Tosca and resetting it in Rome in '43 with the Nazi occupation
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and that's a very strong message that is being sent. But yeah I mean    and that's a very strong message that is being sent. But yeah I mean   
45:19

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It's been an very interesting journey because and and and I guess I also have learnt that given my brothers It's been an very interesting journey because and and and I guess I also have learnt that given my brothers
45:29

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and where I would want to take a design there is a point of connection that you need to make with an audience, and where I would want to take a design there is a point of connection that you need to make with an audience,
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and that is allowing them into your particular language and making the language very clear. That gives you a lot of scope in terms and that is allowing them into your particular language and making the language very clear. That gives you a lot of scope in terms
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of stylistically where you  can go, but there has to be a hook sometimes of stylistically where you  can go, but there has to be a hook sometimes
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when you get so abstracted and I nothing wrong, no fear at all that being abstracted in terms of a stylistic convention when you get so abstracted and I nothing wrong, no fear at all that being abstracted in terms of a stylistic convention
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but I have noticed there's a point and maybe in particular with Australian audiences but I have noticed there's a point and maybe in particular with Australian audiences
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when where you lose them.  They don't quite understand the world that they are in. And somewhere there needs to be a hook and I think  when where you lose them.  They don't quite understand the world that they are in. And somewhere there needs to be a hook and I think 
46:14

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I think the whole is actually about being very clear within your own language and within within your own vocabulary. I think the whole is actually about being very clear within your own language and within within your own vocabulary.
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The verisimilitude that, the truth of the...your your your abstracted environment that you have created. [Michael] That's right. The verisimilitude that, the truth of the...your your your abstracted environment that you have created. [Michael] That's right.
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That's right. [Portus] The consistency of it. [Michael] That's exactly right. [Portus] communicationally. [Michael] Yeah yeah, so ... and I look at the last year,  That's right. [Portus] The consistency of it. [Michael] That's exactly right. [Portus] communicationally. [Michael] Yeah yeah, so ... and I look at the last year, 
46:37

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The current work that I am working on, which is Merry Widow, for Opera conference, which is an art deco world. [Portus] Let's talk  The current work that I am working on, which is Merry Widow, for Opera conference, which is an art deco world. [Portus] Let's talk 
46:44

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About that when you first unit eighteen two thousand and four, About that when you first unit eighteen two thousand and four,
46:48

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because that was a very striking set. Light fare the Merry Widow. because that was a very striking set. Light fare the Merry Widow.
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but You have it's a solid silver art deco fan spread out as a staircase in a huge cigarette case that always surprises but You have it's a solid silver art deco fan spread out as a staircase in a huge cigarette case that always surprises
47:01

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 what that have to do with the music and the  what that have to do with the music and the
47:05

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and the work's intention? [Michael] That production of the Merry Widow is... there aren't many but it's one of the productions I would and the work's intention? [Michael] That production of the Merry Widow is... there aren't many but it's one of the productions I would
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like to completely forget about. [Portus] Oh?! [Michael] Because it actually... what had actually been ...before I answer your question, the fan was the like to completely forget about. [Portus] Oh?! [Michael] Because it actually... what had actually been ...before I answer your question, the fan was the
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major set piece and was meant to be a hydraulically activated fan. So it would start closed major set piece and was meant to be a hydraulically activated fan. So it would start closed
47:30

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and open as a staircase. Literally a week before we went on stage Opera Australia said: we can't solve the hydraulic and open as a staircase. Literally a week before we went on stage Opera Australia said: we can't solve the hydraulic
47:40

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action. Disaster. I mean it's just like action. Disaster. I mean it's just like
47:43

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well what do you want us to do? The entire design is based around the fact that this fan is going to be opening and closing through the show.  well what do you want us to do? The entire design is based around the fact that this fan is going to be opening and closing through the show. 
47:51

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And you know long story but the engineers that they had gone to just weren't capable of coming up with a solution and blah blah...  So Simon And you know long story but the engineers that they had gone to just weren't capable of coming up with a solution and blah blah...  So Simon
48:02

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and Nick and I were totally crestfallen and made the best of it. But the other part of that and it and its, and Nick and I were totally crestfallen and made the best of it. But the other part of that and it and its,
48:14

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it's something that I may hopefully will never return to ironically, the deduction. it's something that I may hopefully will never return to ironically, the deduction.
48:22

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I am doing now, I am doing now,
48:23

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which is directed by Graeme Murphy, yes it's the second time I have done it,  but the reason I did the first one is that Graeme Murphy had which is directed by Graeme Murphy, yes it's the second time I have done it,  but the reason I did the first one is that Graeme Murphy had
48:31

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pulled out of doing the original production and Simon caught the ball [Portus] Simon Phillips replaced him as director pulled out of doing the original production and Simon caught the ball [Portus] Simon Phillips replaced him as director
48:39

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and then with six weeks to go, so there were  six weeks before between us being contracted and delivering the design and then with six weeks to go, so there were  six weeks before between us being contracted and delivering the design
48:48

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and Simon said: look, normally we would sit around and talk for six weeks before we even began to have put pen to paper, and Simon said: look, normally we would sit around and talk for six weeks before we even began to have put pen to paper,
48:58

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but as it turns out I've got an idea if you're happy Michael to run with it. And basically was the tray and the fan and you know essentially but as it turns out I've got an idea if you're happy Michael to run with it. And basically was the tray and the fan and you know essentially
49:04

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what the elements that were on the tray. what the elements that were on the tray.
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What I think we determine what ultimately elements were What I think we determine what ultimately elements were
49:11

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but it was the notion of it being in big decorate tray with things on it. but it was the notion of it being in big decorate tray with things on it.
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[Portus] That was the stage? [Michael] Yeah. [Portus] But the staircase was fixed? Didn't open and close. [Michael] NO he  [Portus] That was the stage? [Michael] Yeah. [Portus] But the staircase was fixed? Didn't open and close. [Michael] NO he 
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He didn't ... we hadn't identified the objects on the tray He didn't ... we hadn't identified the objects on the tray
49:24

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but the idea of it being a deco tray with things on it, was something that he brought to the table, and said I think we should just run with this because but the idea of it being a deco tray with things on it, was something that he brought to the table, and said I think we should just run with this because
49:30

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you don't have time to... whereas normally  you don't have time to... whereas normally 
49:34

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I'd be very much during the whole evolution of the design right from concept through to the what she saw saucy that's I'd be very much during the whole evolution of the design right from concept through to the what she saw saucy that's
49:42

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[Portus] That's quite abstracted as a set idea isn't it? Glitzy but..abstracted [Michael] Yeah yes I mean look  [Portus] That's quite abstracted as a set idea isn't it? Glitzy but..abstracted [Michael] Yeah yes I mean look 
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It's .. [Portus] And whether it opened or closed, were you not happy with it? Or was it just the opening and closing that um  It's .. [Portus] And whether it opened or closed, were you not happy with it? Or was it just the opening and closing that um 
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I wasn't happy with it as a  I wasn't happy with it as a 
50:02

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It didn't make sense without the activation of the fan. And there are other elements that just didn't... it It didn't make sense without the activation of the fan. And there are other elements that just didn't... it
50:08

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It ..it's the only time I worked with a company when I felt they just seriously didn't deliver. And not only didn't deliver  It ..it's the only time I worked with a company when I felt they just seriously didn't deliver. And not only didn't deliver 
50:17

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but actually put us in the pooh by doing so. And  but actually put us in the pooh by doing so. And 
50:23

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and the the fabulous thing about that production was that the the morning when I had to present the design and the the fabulous thing about that production was that the the morning when I had to present the design
50:32

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and Simon was not available, couldn't get to the presentation of the Opera. and Simon was not available, couldn't get to the presentation of the Opera.
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My mother had just died, My mother had just died,
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so I had literally come from the family, kind of family wake that had gone on all night so I had literally come from the family, kind of family wake that had gone on all night
50:46

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and walked into into the Opera Centre to present that production. So there a re a lot of emotional strings attached to that and walked into into the Opera Centre to present that production. So there a re a lot of emotional strings attached to that
50:52

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original production. But um yeah [Portus] So how do you, back with originally with Graeme Murphy,  back original production. But um yeah [Portus] So how do you, back with originally with Graeme Murphy,  back
51:02

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with him, for this next production you are doing later this year in 2017 for the Opera conference with him, for this next production you are doing later this year in 2017 for the Opera conference
51:09

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which is the Opera Australia again, but in collaboration with a number of State Opera companies. What are you thinking which is the Opera Australia again, but in collaboration with a number of State Opera companies. What are you thinking
51:17

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about this?  You're a long way from an art deco [Michael] Oh yes I mean its three separate sets. They're  about this?  You're a long way from an art deco [Michael] Oh yes I mean its three separate sets. They're 
51:27

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It is very much a deco world identifiable space for the first act using deco architecture. For want of a better It is very much a deco world identifiable space for the first act using deco architecture. For want of a better
51:41

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better term Monet's Garden as the second act and then a re-dress of the first going  better term Monet's Garden as the second act and then a re-dress of the first going 
51:47

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and turn into the club for the third act. and turn into the club for the third act.
51:52

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[Portus] It does sound a beauty stage that you are in as a designer [Michael] I mean I  [Portus] It does sound a beauty stage that you are in as a designer [Michael] I mean I 
51:55

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and is that necessary for this contemporary audience to see such a work like Merry Widow that you dress it up in such beauty? and is that necessary for this contemporary audience to see such a work like Merry Widow that you dress it up in such beauty?
52:04

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might think. I think in this particular production. might think. I think in this particular production.
52:07

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If you look at the mix, there's Graeme who really wanted a fabulous deco space  If you look at the mix, there's Graeme who really wanted a fabulous deco space 
52:17

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and Jenny Irwin's doing the costumes. She's doing a beautiful beautiful beautiful job. Again pure deco. Gorgeous.  and Jenny Irwin's doing the costumes. She's doing a beautiful beautiful beautiful job. Again pure deco. Gorgeous. 
52:29

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and you know look the company's very pleased with it.  I am I am we have had to make cuts due to budget restraints and you know look the company's very pleased with it.  I am I am we have had to make cuts due to budget restraints
52:39

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It's taken us a long time. It's taken us a long time.
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to settle budget and they are now a month behind because it took so long to agree on what the cuts would be.  And  how we could to settle budget and they are now a month behind because it took so long to agree on what the cuts would be.  And  how we could
52:49

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resolve things within the budget. resolve things within the budget.
52:52

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These Opera Conference productions are blessed surely with a few more resources, given that it's the  [Michael] Not really  These Opera Conference productions are blessed surely with a few more resources, given that it's the  [Michael] Not really 
52:58

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and it's the big company and the smaller companies sharing [Michael] You would think so  and it's the big company and the smaller companies sharing [Michael] You would think so 
53:02

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but essentially it's the same budget as one of the larger-scale opera budgets for Opera Australia but essentially it's the same budget as one of the larger-scale opera budgets for Opera Australia
53:08

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exactly the same. It's just that the ...all of the companies put into that pot to get a slice of action as it were.  exactly the same. It's just that the ...all of the companies put into that pot to get a slice of action as it were. 
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Funnily enough.... [Portus[ The make good economic sense though, don't they? Funnily enough.... [Portus[ The make good economic sense though, don't they?
53:19

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 [Portus] as a sort of phenomenon? [Michael] They do,  I think that... this was a Keating initiative, the Opera conference.  [Portus] as a sort of phenomenon? [Michael] They do,  I think that... this was a Keating initiative, the Opera conference.
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I think the floor [Portus] to give money to these jointly done Operas? [Michael] well it's not the money. I think the floor [Portus] to give money to these jointly done Operas? [Michael] well it's not the money.
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It's the fact that they buy a stake in the pie as it were. That's a mixed metaphoe It's the fact that they buy a stake in the pie as it were. That's a mixed metaphoe
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But they they... unless it's a steak pie! The no they... what happens in Opera conference is that each of those companies But they they... unless it's a steak pie! The no they... what happens in Opera conference is that each of those companies
53:53

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take it in turn to decide what the Opera is going to be. So rather than... what normally happens is that Opera Australia does a  take it in turn to decide what the Opera is going to be. So rather than... what normally happens is that Opera Australia does a 
54:01

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production and it then gets rented out the other smaller companies. They get a say in what is actually production and it then gets rented out the other smaller companies. They get a say in what is actually
54:06

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going to be. And they take it in turns in deciding. And this production is starting in Perth, going to be. And they take it in turns in deciding. And this production is starting in Perth,
54:13

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which is where you know it was their request to do The Widow and  which is where you know it was their request to do The Widow and 
54:19

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but the... I think what is problematic is that at the end the day Opera Australia by default  end up having to build it and organise it, and  but the... I think what is problematic is that at the end the day Opera Australia by default  end up having to build it and organise it, and 
54:29

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get it up and running get it up and running
54:30

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and get it there. So it's not like they take it in turns to build a set. Opera Australia always builds the set. Opera Australia  always puts and get it there. So it's not like they take it in turns to build a set. Opera Australia always builds the set. Opera Australia  always puts
54:38

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the logistics together. Delivering. In other words its kind of what they do normally which is - they do an opera and then it gets rented out.  the logistics together. Delivering. In other words its kind of what they do normally which is - they do an opera and then it gets rented out. 
54:47

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In this instance they're. In this instance they're.
54:49

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Verify
There building it on behalf of embodiment delivering it to them in their State, There building it on behalf of embodiment delivering it to them in their State,
54:55

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Verify
and then the local team takes over. But  and then the local team takes over. But 
54:58

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but that... I think they feel that that's not necessarily a very equitable thing. But anyway look that's the way it is but that... I think they feel that that's not necessarily a very equitable thing. But anyway look that's the way it is
55:10

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and, ah, they they, as in the opera workshop, are doing such beautiful work at the moment and, ah, they they, as in the opera workshop, are doing such beautiful work at the moment
55:16

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Verify
and I mentioned Monet's garden for Act Two, it is literally the waterlilies as as a curved canvas piece in the and I mentioned Monet's garden for Act Two, it is literally the waterlilies as as a curved canvas piece in the
55:27

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Verify
background  background 
55:30

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and they have painted it. Now there was a suggestion by the company well it will be much cheaper if we printed this. I mean and they have painted it. Now there was a suggestion by the company well it will be much cheaper if we printed this. I mean
55:36

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this is a vast cloth, in fact three vast cloths, and I said look if you do this this is a vast cloth, in fact three vast cloths, and I said look if you do this
55:44

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Verify
These guys are the losers that that's Gilbert Snow, These guys are the losers that that's Gilbert Snow,
55:46

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We need to keep all that alive. But they have done the most beautiful job, um. [Martin] Let's talk about We need to keep all that alive. But they have done the most beautiful job, um. [Martin] Let's talk about
55:52

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The Girl of the Golden West because that in 2011, The Girl of the Golden West because that in 2011,
55:56

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so quite a bit later than the first Merry Widow, Puccini so quite a bit later than the first Merry Widow, Puccini
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Verify
There was quite, despite the Conservationism you were talking about with Opera Australia productions There was quite, despite the Conservationism you were talking about with Opera Australia productions
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and this was Opera Queensland who are directed bone Nigel Jemison seemed quite tonnes if a radical in its use of and this was Opera Queensland who are directed bone Nigel Jemison seemed quite tonnes if a radical in its use of
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Verify
technology and screens. [Michael] No, that was Opera Conference, [Portus] Oh it was? [Michael] and we we actually rehearsed technology and screens. [Michael] No, that was Opera Conference, [Portus] Oh it was? [Michael] and we we actually rehearsed
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and opened in Adelaide. And then it did the rounds. But I think the reason I and opened in Adelaide. And then it did the rounds. But I think the reason I
56:29

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doing that is because Dan Potra who who Nigel normally works with was overseas and it was the only time I've worked with Nigel doing that is because Dan Potra who who Nigel normally works with was overseas and it was the only time I've worked with Nigel
56:37

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but I was absolutely hilarious and fabulous fun. And a great team. And I don't think its but I was absolutely hilarious and fabulous fun. And a great team. And I don't think its
56:46

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its' own dynamics of different routines. its' own dynamics of different routines.
56:49

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but it was an hilarious and very loud and very vocal group of people who came together. And I've never been at  a  production desk  but it was an hilarious and very loud and very vocal group of people who came together. And I've never been at  a  production desk 
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where people were literally yelling across at one another. And Nigel would say "what do you think about that" and they'd be this volley of "no no no do this" where people were literally yelling across at one another. And Nigel would say "what do you think about that" and they'd be this volley of "no no no do this"
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It was actually  It was actually 
57:07

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Great fun. [Portus] When you get experienced in working with people you trust Great fun. [Portus] When you get experienced in working with people you trust
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and you have good collaborations with, it must be in novel and you have good collaborations with, it must be in novel
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and in a way refreshing to suddenly work with a different team. [Michael] Yeah  It is. And one of one of my great joys of the last few and in a way refreshing to suddenly work with a different team. [Michael] Yeah  It is. And one of one of my great joys of the last few
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years has been working with Des ?McCanna? from On Broadway. And he's a fabulous collaborator. So organised. So together. years has been working with Des ?McCanna? from On Broadway. And he's a fabulous collaborator. So organised. So together.
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but we just... we've delightfully trotted around the world to different cities [Portus] As a director? [Michael] Yes so Des developed but we just... we've delightfully trotted around the world to different cities [Portus] As a director? [Michael] Yes so Des developed
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and directed Jersey Boys. A whole series of things. and directed Jersey Boys. A whole series of things.
57:49

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Tommy on Broadway, you know... like a serious player, but but he's just fabulous to work with. Tommy on Broadway, you know... like a serious player, but but he's just fabulous to work with.
57:56

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and with a girl in the inner Golden West are one of the things struck me was that it would be cremated and with a girl in the inner Golden West are one of the things struck me was that it would be cremated
58:04

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or was what was a spaghetti western legs are used very expensive screens to project black-and-white classic films know or was what was a spaghetti western legs are used very expensive screens to project black-and-white classic films know
58:13

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there with that expensive, while one was are rear projection screen on the back of the space. there with that expensive, while one was are rear projection screen on the back of the space.
58:19

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The rest of it was projected onto the walls of the set so was it was wild things are not really want to explore is a The rest of it was projected onto the walls of the set so was it was wild things are not really want to explore is a
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loss of particularly black-and-white loss of particularly black-and-white
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but not only black-and-white projection into the space rather than using a conventional seeing screen that we only use but not only black-and-white projection into the space rather than using a conventional seeing screen that we only use
58:37

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the rear projection screen at the back of the space. And only I think only once, no a couple of times the rear projection screen at the back of the space. And only I think only once, no a couple of times
58:45

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but that's it was about how to use protection in a lynching way that it actually was rejected sometimes obliquely on but that's it was about how to use protection in a lynching way that it actually was rejected sometimes obliquely on
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the side of the set. In fact the whole development of the shape of the set was to do without the work as a projection surface, so it  the side of the set. In fact the whole development of the shape of the set was to do without the work as a projection surface, so it 
59:03

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was as a diminishing square tube if that makes sense. And a perspective space. And for the first act. was as a diminishing square tube if that makes sense. And a perspective space. And for the first act.
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It was the bar and enclosed It was the bar and enclosed
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and was it was completely greyscale, apart from the line of diminishing perspective whiskey bottles that had whiskey coloured in them and was it was completely greyscale, apart from the line of diminishing perspective whiskey bottles that had whiskey coloured in them
59:25

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and lights on the wall. But he and lights on the wall. But he
59:28

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For example, we developed a series of tables were also in perspective which, For example, we developed a series of tables were also in perspective which,
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at a certain point the cast would flip up on their edge and we used a program called Watch Out to map onto the table, at a certain point the cast would flip up on their edge and we used a program called Watch Out to map onto the table,
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so we would directly project onto those tables where they were standing in space and so we would directly project onto those tables where they were standing in space and
59:47

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and them only. So it was a whole series of expressions of how to use the space literally as projection surface. And in the second and them only. So it was a whole series of expressions of how to use the space literally as projection surface. And in the second
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act. act.
59:57

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The set cracks open as we move into ...to go to her house, which is up in the mountains in the snowfields The set cracks open as we move into ...to go to her house, which is up in the mountains in the snowfields
1:00:09

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and the back of the set drove downstage, her heart. and the back of the set drove downstage, her heart.
1:00:14

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Whilst the rest of the object cracked open Whilst the rest of the object cracked open
1:00:17

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and we saw the night sky through those cracks. So again it quite dynamically changed the space and we saw the night sky through those cracks. So again it quite dynamically changed the space
1:00:25

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but we use projection in a different way in that environment. And then in the third act it cracked even more open but we use projection in a different way in that environment. And then in the third act it cracked even more open
1:00:32

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and we had used silhouette projections of men on horseback, and real real spaghetti western images. and we had used silhouette projections of men on horseback, and real real spaghetti western images.
1:00:47

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but They were in silhouette to visit it was a real interest expression of our use of imagery but They were in silhouette to visit it was a real interest expression of our use of imagery
1:00:53

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protected imagery on set [Portus] Without distracting from the live drama of the story itself? protected imagery on set [Portus] Without distracting from the live drama of the story itself?
1:00:59

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[Micheal] Yeah [Portus] Being a part of it, not in competition with it [Micheal] Yeah [Portus] Being a part of it, not in competition with it
1:01:03

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And I have to say this is a theme that I have been exploring for a while because that technology is upon us. And I have to say this is a theme that I have been exploring for a while because that technology is upon us.
1:01:11

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It's not gonna go away. And so we as practitioners and storytellers need to learn how to control it. It's not gonna go away. And so we as practitioners and storytellers need to learn how to control it.
1:01:18

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I'm not not let it upstaged what's happening on stage and to that end, I'm not not let it upstaged what's happening on stage and to that end,
1:01:26

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we've purchased an 8 metre by 3 metre LED screen at NIDA. In fact the Federal government has kindly paid for it.  we've purchased an 8 metre by 3 metre LED screen at NIDA. In fact the Federal government has kindly paid for it. 
1:01:34

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because I want the students to not only work, not only learn about manipulation of images on an LED screen, but   because I want the students to not only work, not only learn about manipulation of images on an LED screen, but  
1:01:40

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actually think of it as a plastic medium that they can live sheep all the pieces apart. actually think of it as a plastic medium that they can live sheep all the pieces apart.
1:01:45

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They might have ninety six 500 by 500 squares in a space, or a door through the middle of it, or a window, They might have ninety six 500 by 500 squares in a space, or a door through the middle of it, or a window,
1:01:51

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whatever but it actually becomes, as an object, a real player in the phys- physical space whatever but it actually becomes, as an object, a real player in the phys- physical space
1:01:57

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but also to keep thinking about what happens but also to keep thinking about what happens
1:02:00

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when you put a particular image on that screen, while there's a performance ?standing? in front of it. when you put a particular image on that screen, while there's a performance ?standing? in front of it.
1:02:07

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And they need to learn that language And they need to learn that language
1:02:09

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and in where this the antecedents of that screen was following through on some ideas that came out of the Broadway and in where this the antecedents of that screen was following through on some ideas that came out of the Broadway
1:02:18

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production of Zhivago. [Portus] Dr Zhivago? [Michael] Yeah where there's production of Zhivago. [Portus] Dr Zhivago? [Michael] Yeah where there's
1:02:21

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That is a very large screen of the Mac and space) That is a very large screen of the Mac and space)
1:02:27

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the space. And rather than going yippee now we'll have a whole lot of realistic images projected onto that  the space. And rather than going yippee now we'll have a whole lot of realistic images projected onto that 
1:02:34

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or fed through that LED system. or fed through that LED system.
1:02:38

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We used it completely theatrically. So there would be at times what looked like a billboard flying into the space. We used it completely theatrically. So there would be at times what looked like a billboard flying into the space.
1:02:46

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In other words, flying a simple theatrical convention of something lorry into this practice, In other words, flying a simple theatrical convention of something lorry into this practice,
1:02:52

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but it was actually happening on the screen. You couldn't pick it. but it was actually happening on the screen. You couldn't pick it.
1:02:56

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So you kind of aped [Michael] aped [Portus] Aped the protocols of the theatre [Michael] That's right [Portus] on screen So you kind of aped [Michael] aped [Portus] Aped the protocols of the theatre [Michael] That's right [Portus] on screen
1:03:01

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and in fact the number of the review said in a ridiculous I'm sentence eight not realising that it more than a third of and in fact the number of the review said in a ridiculous I'm sentence eight not realising that it more than a third of
1:03:06

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was totally virtual. And Sean ?Neunhausen?  who's in fact about to come out to commission the LED screen was totally virtual. And Sean ?Neunhausen?  who's in fact about to come out to commission the LED screen
1:03:14

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and work with the students and work with the students
1:03:16

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at NIDA was taking my design, the set design, which was in a 3-D form, virtual 3-D form, he would then render at NIDA was taking my design, the set design, which was in a 3-D form, virtual 3-D form, he would then render
1:03:29

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it and we were in the theatre ?checking? for about six weeks it and we were in the theatre ?checking? for about six weeks
1:03:33

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and he was colour matching, as the lighting developed, he would colour match the virtual extension of the set so that you and he was colour matching, as the lighting developed, he would colour match the virtual extension of the set so that you
1:03:42

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couldn't see when the transition was between the build peace couldn't see when the transition was between the build peace
1:03:45

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and the virtual piece. Incredible. You know you whack a little bit of smoke in there, blur the edges a little bit and you just can't tell. and the virtual piece. Incredible. You know you whack a little bit of smoke in there, blur the edges a little bit and you just can't tell.
1:03:54

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So... and that's not about look here's an arresting image up the back of space. It's saying So... and that's not about look here's an arresting image up the back of space. It's saying
1:04:01

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we're now in a  very deep grand space. How do we extend that space? we're now in a  very deep grand space. How do we extend that space?
1:04:05

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or we do it virtually. So that that I think is interesting territory or we do it virtually. So that that I think is interesting territory
1:04:10

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and that's the sort of thing that I want the students to start getting their heads around. [Portus] But talking at other times here, two and that's the sort of thing that I want the students to start getting their heads around. [Portus] But talking at other times here, two
1:04:17

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choreographers working in dance in film choreographers working in dance in film
1:04:20

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and the surprising surprise that dancers should be working in film because everyone is working in film. So dance too  and the surprising surprise that dancers should be working in film because everyone is working in film. So dance too 
1:04:28

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should adapt to the medium. But how do you stop the...or is it an old-fashioned sort of sense that should adapt to the medium. But how do you stop the...or is it an old-fashioned sort of sense that
1:04:33

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when, if it's something on screen you look at it even more than if  when, if it's something on screen you look at it even more than if 
1:04:37

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that you look at the living characters in front of them.   that you look at the living characters in front of them.  
1:04:38

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This is exactly the territory that I want to get the next generation of designers thinking about. Because it's a very This is exactly the territory that I want to get the next generation of designers thinking about. Because it's a very
1:04:48

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very powerful thing as you're suggesting. You automatically, your eye, if you're not very careful, goes to that screen very powerful thing as you're suggesting. You automatically, your eye, if you're not very careful, goes to that screen
1:04:56

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So how do you harness the good things about having a screen like that? So how do you harness the good things about having a screen like that?
1:05:01

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And not do exactly the thing that we're talking about? That's why I am using the example of Doctor Zhivago. Because I swear you And not do exactly the thing that we're talking about? That's why I am using the example of Doctor Zhivago. Because I swear you
1:05:10

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were very very rarely aware of what it was actually doing. Yet it was a vast screen. So it was a serious piece of technology were very very rarely aware of what it was actually doing. Yet it was a vast screen. So it was a serious piece of technology
1:05:18

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serious bit of money at the back.  But used very ... with a delicate touch. And I think that's, serious bit of money at the back.  But used very ... with a delicate touch. And I think that's,
1:05:27

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kinda the key to it. [Portus] So it didn't take you somewhere else? It kept you in that same space? Without shifting [Michael] totally. totally within the theatrical space.  [Portus] Shifting theatrics. So why have it?  kinda the key to it. [Portus] So it didn't take you somewhere else? It kept you in that same space? Without shifting [Michael] totally. totally within the theatrical space.  [Portus] Shifting theatrics. So why have it? 
1:05:34

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have it because it allowed us to. have it because it allowed us to.
1:05:37

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f you know the Broadway theatres, they are actually very shallow. And it  allowed us to make a grand mansion f you know the Broadway theatres, they are actually very shallow. And it  allowed us to make a grand mansion
1:05:45

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For example, and a ballroom in a grand mansion. Not that actually ... that   particular example didn't happen For example, and a ballroom in a grand mansion. Not that actually ... that   particular example didn't happen
1:05:50

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but other examples where we are looking at the ruins of what was a grand space and able to, through perspective, really but other examples where we are looking at the ruins of what was a grand space and able to, through perspective, really
1:06:00

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extend the space. extend the space.
1:06:03

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Verify
Am for some four did you start Liège L3 for your shared goal in designing arm of Doctor Zhivago, Am for some four did you start Liège L3 for your shared goal in designing arm of Doctor Zhivago,
1:06:11

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Which is after all first production of it. Which is after all first production of it.
1:06:15

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[Portus] Its tryout if you like. [Michael] Mmm [Portus] It evolved in Australia.[Michael] Mmm [Portus] To tour Australia before moving as it did to Broadway [Portus] Its tryout if you like. [Michael] Mmm [Portus] It evolved in Australia.[Michael] Mmm [Portus] To tour Australia before moving as it did to Broadway
1:06:22

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with the Gordon Frost Organisation. [Michael] Yeah via via Korea yeah. [Martin] What did you start with? [Michael] Well it's funny how life with the Gordon Frost Organisation. [Michael] Yeah via via Korea yeah. [Martin] What did you start with? [Michael] Well it's funny how life
1:06:32

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manages to neatly wrap these things together manages to neatly wrap these things together
1:06:36

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We had commissioned a Russian director at NIDA to come and direct for us in 2010 We had commissioned a Russian director at NIDA to come and direct for us in 2010
1:06:42

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and I took two students over there to meet with the director, to St Petersburg and I took two students over there to meet with the director, to St Petersburg
1:06:51

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and the Academy in St Petersburg where he, this director taught is in what was once a very grand mansion. and the Academy in St Petersburg where he, this director taught is in what was once a very grand mansion.
1:07:02

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And in their performance space within this school is in the remnants of the ballroom. So it had kind of totally And in their performance space within this school is in the remnants of the ballroom. So it had kind of totally
1:07:11

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dilapidated and was now painted black and whatever. But a fantastic space for the students, dilapidated and was now painted black and whatever. But a fantastic space for the students,
1:07:16

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but it was - and there was a funny story because I was looking at them going: this is just a complete firetrap and I said to the director "how do you get around but it was - and there was a funny story because I was looking at them going: this is just a complete firetrap and I said to the director "how do you get around
1:07:27

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WH&S in terms of access to this space? Oh he said it's easy. We just don't charge a ticket price, WH&S in terms of access to this space? Oh he said it's easy. We just don't charge a ticket price,
1:07:34

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therefore they can burn for free anyway. The particular Russian way of thinking together well. therefore they can burn for free anyway. The particular Russian way of thinking together well.
1:07:41

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Our starts omissions were due to come back and and and and that you did create in Doctor Zhivago ate a dilapidated. Our starts omissions were due to come back and and and and that you did create in Doctor Zhivago ate a dilapidated.
1:07:49

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[Michael] Yes [Portus] St Petersburg ballroom? [Michael] Yes that's right. So in my very first conversation  [Michael] Yes [Portus] St Petersburg ballroom? [Michael] Yes that's right. So in my very first conversation 
1:07:55

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well the first conversation once I had been given the gig with Des, I said well look, I related that story and well the first conversation once I had been given the gig with Des, I said well look, I related that story and
1:08:03

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but I also talked to him about the notion that, if we imagined that the whole thing took place essentially in one space, but I also talked to him about the notion that, if we imagined that the whole thing took place essentially in one space,
1:08:13

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which is the different iterations of the ballroom, then the ballroom chairs that we find in that space could then become which is the different iterations of the ballroom, then the ballroom chairs that we find in that space could then become
1:08:21

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our the detritus of war, and in fact in our overall philosophy. our the detritus of war, and in fact in our overall philosophy.
1:08:27

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if you like about the storytelling, the chairs became a representation of the people who had been killed in those wars  if you like about the storytelling, the chairs became a representation of the people who had been killed in those wars 
1:08:37

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and revolutions. So there are more and more chairs as the revolutions continue. And so in Sydney. and revolutions. So there are more and more chairs as the revolutions continue. And so in Sydney.
1:08:44

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We did an image of the house curtain. We did an image of the house curtain.
1:08:46

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If you like, for the show was a slice that had a stack wooden chairs running up through this slice. And Des and I said, If you like, for the show was a slice that had a stack wooden chairs running up through this slice. And Des and I said,
1:08:56

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well look if we ever get Broadway we're going to do the entire proscenium in chairs. Which is what we did.  well look if we ever get Broadway we're going to do the entire proscenium in chairs. Which is what we did. 
1:09:02

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It's actually one my favourite images of recent times. [Portus] So it's consistent across the production. You are always in some kind It's actually one my favourite images of recent times. [Portus] So it's consistent across the production. You are always in some kind
1:09:09

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of way in the St Petersburg gladiators already. S. of way in the St Petersburg gladiators already. S.
1:09:12

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So everything was relating back to [Portus] That's a great abstraction requiring an imaginatively leap by an audience in a musical that you might not have  So everything was relating back to [Portus] That's a great abstraction requiring an imaginatively leap by an audience in a musical that you might not have 
1:09:21

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tested on an opera audience. [Michael] Oh... I would have tested that with an opera audience. I mean it's  tested on an opera audience. [Michael] Oh... I would have tested that with an opera audience. I mean it's 
1:09:29

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just, it's more about where Opera Australia, and that's just one company, feel they need to be at this moment in time. just, it's more about where Opera Australia, and that's just one company, feel they need to be at this moment in time.
1:09:37

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but [Portus] I also ...in the, in Zhivago  but [Portus] I also ...in the, in Zhivago 
1:09:42

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you had a steam train of course. The story ... using a train [Michael]We had a ...It does  you had a steam train of course. The story ... using a train [Michael]We had a ...It does 
1:09:48

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but we abstracted that so it was basically a platform that lifted out of the stage floor, that had an industrial slightly train- but we abstracted that so it was basically a platform that lifted out of the stage floor, that had an industrial slightly train-
1:09:58

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like quality to the support structure for the piece of floor. But essentially it was a platform that tracked up and down the stage. like quality to the support structure for the piece of floor. But essentially it was a platform that tracked up and down the stage.
1:10:07

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The track governor stage to the mechanism, but the road. The track governor stage to the mechanism, but the road.
1:10:12

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It also rotated and so the cast would do the rotation. So it was a combination of actor power It also rotated and so the cast would do the rotation. So it was a combination of actor power
1:10:19

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and mechanical power to make it work. [Portus]  other moving parts in it? It wouldn't be one of your sets unless it did have moving parts [Michael] No   and mechanical power to make it work. [Portus]  other moving parts in it? It wouldn't be one of your sets unless it did have moving parts [Michael] No  
1:10:27

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No it had serious moving parts. [Portus] and a staircase? [Michael] Yes yes lots of  No it had serious moving parts. [Portus] and a staircase? [Michael] Yes yes lots of 
1:10:32

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it had little, this particular piece had little pullout train steps that tucked underneath the platform. So it wasn't an it had little, this particular piece had little pullout train steps that tucked underneath the platform. So it wasn't an
1:10:40

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obstruction. It was it was. It was basically a big rectangle the floor. The became a floating railway platform. obstruction. It was it was. It was basically a big rectangle the floor. The became a floating railway platform.
1:10:48

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The railway, what's the word? It indicated the railway, the train, but it actually wasn't a literal The railway, what's the word? It indicated the railway, the train, but it actually wasn't a literal
1:10:60

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"here's the carriage". [Portus] Michael what about the logistics of building it? Was it built around Australia? Or [Michael ] The first  "here's the carriage". [Portus] Michael what about the logistics of building it? Was it built around Australia? Or [Michael ] The first 
1:11:11

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production was. [Portus]And then you made a late decision to automate the set? production was. [Portus]And then you made a late decision to automate the set?
1:11:16

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Yes, What did that ... what did that mean? [Michael] Well the basic bones Yes, What did that ... what did that mean? [Michael] Well the basic bones
1:11:23

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and design were a series of ballroom Moore 's the diminished in the identical diminished in size. and design were a series of ballroom Moore 's the diminished in the identical diminished in size.
1:11:30

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as they went upstage. And there was quite a steep rake, which was a  black-and-white tile pattern as they went upstage. And there was quite a steep rake, which was a  black-and-white tile pattern
1:11:36

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and these blue, Russian blue walls that tracked in  and these blue, Russian blue walls that tracked in 
1:11:41

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and rearranged the space. So that so particularly the first half of the show we actually had a change of set in the second half of the show but  and rearranged the space. So that so particularly the first half of the show we actually had a change of set in the second half of the show but 
1:11:52

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their entire events took place by these walls moving into different configurations their entire events took place by these walls moving into different configurations
1:11:58

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and we were trying to work rabbits of the budget and we were trying to work rabbits of the budget
1:12:03

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Verify
and the budget couldn't afford automation to make the walls track. So they were going to be pushed by mechs,  mechanists. And when Des and the budget couldn't afford automation to make the walls track. So they were going to be pushed by mechs,  mechanists. And when Des
1:12:14

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Des arrived he went you've got to be kidding. Des arrived he went you've got to be kidding.
1:12:16

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This is very complex and to the producers John Frost he said "please go find some more This is very complex and to the producers John Frost he said "please go find some more
1:12:23

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or money because we need this to be automated". or money because we need this to be automated".
1:12:25

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Verify
It's a classic automation show. And of course on Broadway, they wouldn't think twice. Of course, it's automated. It's a classic automation show. And of course on Broadway, they wouldn't think twice. Of course, it's automated.
1:12:31

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but this was a smaller budget but this was a smaller budget
1:12:33

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and try to make it work within that budget was of a classic automated show what would the member that is a director and try to make it work within that budget was of a classic automated show what would the member that is a director
1:12:41

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well because of the nature what it was doing that it had to hit its mark on time, on cue whatever and well because of the nature what it was doing that it had to hit its mark on time, on cue whatever and
1:12:47

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and you know with the best will in the world that is a hard thing for a crew to be doing night after night. You know 8 and you know with the best will in the world that is a hard thing for a crew to be doing night after night. You know 8
1:12:58

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performances a week. It's highly likely that things would go awry. [Portus]  Human error? performances a week. It's highly likely that things would go awry. [Portus]  Human error?
1:13:05

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Verify
Yeah. Human error. So we switched across. We reverse engineered and built-in automation into the system. Yeah. Human error. So we switched across. We reverse engineered and built-in automation into the system.
1:13:14

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Now it did go to Hollywoo- it did go to Broadway. Now it did go to Hollywoo- it did go to Broadway.
1:13:17

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um with the US Director um um with the US Director um
1:13:20

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but only you as the creative team. Selected to build the Broadway production in 2015. [Michael] yeah [Portus] Why you  but only you as the creative team. Selected to build the Broadway production in 2015. [Michael] yeah [Portus] Why you 
1:13:29

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and only you do you think? How do things work in this business? [Michael] Well part of it is budget. But Des and I had formed a very and only you do you think? How do things work in this business? [Michael] Well part of it is budget. But Des and I had formed a very
1:13:38

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with strong artistic bond and that was a common journey that the term is going on. with strong artistic bond and that was a common journey that the term is going on.
1:13:44

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I think. Look the Australian creative team were terrific.  I think. Look the Australian creative team were terrific. 
1:13:50

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Verify
but he also had people in America that he worked with regularly. So the costume designer was somebody he'd worked with a great but he also had people in America that he worked with regularly. So the costume designer was somebody he'd worked with a great
1:13:57

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deal of other lines are as Hollywood with a great deal and they were marquee names on Broadway, deal of other lines are as Hollywood with a great deal and they were marquee names on Broadway,
1:14:06

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and he wanted to go there and look at them. and he wanted to go there and look at them.
1:14:08

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They the producers couldn't afford to bring out really that only important bring me because I think I did something They the producers couldn't afford to bring out really that only important bring me because I think I did something
1:14:18

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like what for about six months I was doing to excuse one week. like what for about six months I was doing to excuse one week.
1:14:24

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there, two weeks here, one week ... so I was constantly flying back and forth. So that alone was a huge cost. there, two weeks here, one week ... so I was constantly flying back and forth. So that alone was a huge cost.
1:14:31

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and If you would try to rip you sat across several people. and If you would try to rip you sat across several people.
1:14:34

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That's a lot of money in the daylight percent presumably in light of other out of the other power. That's a lot of money in the daylight percent presumably in light of other out of the other power.
1:14:42

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Verify
And the American team - writers and librettists and whatever -  they all loved the design [Portus] Who all came in to rework it? And the American team - writers and librettists and whatever -  they all loved the design [Portus] Who all came in to rework it?
1:14:55

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and rewrite the show here year so who look I'm on a downward day it was really about the relationship that is my far and rewrite the show here year so who look I'm on a downward day it was really about the relationship that is my far
1:15:04

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Funnily enough, we.. he came to Australia, decided he was going to use an Australian team, to develop the show. So he was interviewing Funnily enough, we.. he came to Australia, decided he was going to use an Australian team, to develop the show. So he was interviewing
1:15:15

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a whack of designers. [Martin] So the idea of the try out if you like, a whack of designers. [Martin] So the idea of the try out if you like,
1:15:20

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of creating the work, did this come from the director rather than Gordon Frost? [Michael] It was a combination of creating the work, did this come from the director rather than Gordon Frost? [Michael] It was a combination
1:15:27

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but that there is not that it's happened Summit Risley, but at that point in time. but that there is not that it's happened Summit Risley, but at that point in time.
1:15:34

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people like ?John? Frost with thinking, were able to secure these sort of things because it is much cheaper to build people like ?John? Frost with thinking, were able to secure these sort of things because it is much cheaper to build
1:15:40

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in Australia than it was on Broadway. So the producers in Australia than it was on Broadway. So the producers
1:15:46

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and removing gradual one of could actually will abuses could put off could assemble and removing gradual one of could actually will abuses could put off could assemble
1:15:53

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for a production which was probably at least a third less than it would cost in Broadway, for the same show. So for a production which was probably at least a third less than it would cost in Broadway, for the same show. So
1:16:03

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Verify
that's, kind of where that came from. And so Australia, Melbourne, and Sydney, that's, kind of where that came from. And so Australia, Melbourne, and Sydney,
1:16:07

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in particular were seen as testing grounds for new music works.  So it basically was the out-of out-of out-of-town tryout. So in particular were seen as testing grounds for new music works.  So it basically was the out-of out-of out-of-town tryout. So
1:16:16

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Verify
and it did extremely well in Australia. It didn't last on Broadway. Funnily enough I was we were in the theatre for six weeks and it did extremely well in Australia. It didn't last on Broadway. Funnily enough I was we were in the theatre for six weeks
1:16:28

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and I got to know the local crew very well. And, who are delightful actually and I got to know the local crew very well. And, who are delightful actually
1:16:33

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and one of them was saying to me, this was before we opened, he said: you know this.. you haven't, and one of them was saying to me, this was before we opened, he said: you know this.. you haven't,
1:16:41

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as if you have redesigned Broadway shown us all what it'll value design an opera what you mean numbers on opera as if you have redesigned Broadway shown us all what it'll value design an opera what you mean numbers on opera
1:16:49

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or there are two sets of thing is that the definition of operas it anyway in I'm not a Broadway aficionado at all tend or there are two sets of thing is that the definition of operas it anyway in I'm not a Broadway aficionado at all tend
1:17:03

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not to see Broadway shows or  musicals per se, although I've done a number of musicals.  not to see Broadway shows or  musicals per se, although I've done a number of musicals. 
1:17:10

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but clearly there is a sort of language that they use which is was not what we're doing but clearly there is a sort of language that they use which is was not what we're doing
1:17:15

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and I think that I think the notion at that moment in time Dean 's epic Russian story that spanned inequality years and I think that I think the notion at that moment in time Dean 's epic Russian story that spanned inequality years
1:17:26

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that was so not the appetite on Broadway at that moment in time, that was so not the appetite on Broadway at that moment in time,
1:17:31

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Apart from the cabal of men who meet in the cafe at the back of Carnegie Hall Apart from the cabal of men who meet in the cafe at the back of Carnegie Hall
1:17:38

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and determine the course of every show on Broadway, and determine the course of every show on Broadway,
1:17:42

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Verify
and so um, I was talking to a colleague who works a lot on Broadway, and he said they would have decided the fate of that show long before it  opened and so um, I was talking to a colleague who works a lot on Broadway, and he said they would have decided the fate of that show long before it  opened
1:17:52

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'cause they would have gone: well actually what we need to do is get X into that theatre  'cause they would have gone: well actually what we need to do is get X into that theatre 
1:17:56

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and such a date that it wouldn't have mattered whether was that it was all they wanted to be a flop because forgot and such a date that it wouldn't have mattered whether was that it was all they wanted to be a flop because forgot
1:18:02

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something planned for six weeks time. [Michael] Yeah something planned for six weeks time. [Michael] Yeah
1:18:05

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and your alien there for six weeks here was six weeks of ticket rests on ran for about six weeks here and your alien there for six weeks here was six weeks of ticket rests on ran for about six weeks here
1:18:11

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and EU editor having given how did you remake and EU editor having given how did you remake
1:18:16

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or try to re-app... to appeal to an American audience with a set that was a fairly dark and wintry world or try to re-app... to appeal to an American audience with a set that was a fairly dark and wintry world
1:18:23

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and I was wondering if it had enough dazzle and I was wondering if it had enough dazzle
1:18:26

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Verify
 for Broadway. [Michael] I think ... um Des and I had earmarked a number of things that we were going to revisit if it went to Broadway,  for Broadway. [Michael] I think ... um Des and I had earmarked a number of things that we were going to revisit if it went to Broadway,
1:18:41

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Verify
and so the Ice Palace was a much more expansive piece. There were things like the wall of chairs and a variety of things that we had and so the Ice Palace was a much more expansive piece. There were things like the wall of chairs and a variety of things that we had
1:18:51

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Verify
said, if we get they will do XYZ. And and he was also very determined said, if we get they will do XYZ. And and he was also very determined
1:18:57

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Verify
and the LED screen Google gave the whole thing different dynamics and the LED screen Google gave the whole thing different dynamics
1:19:02

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and indeed it just was done so well people to realise was there, so in arm and indeed it just was done so well people to realise was there, so in arm
1:19:11

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Verify
but it's funny because that's actually ... many of the reviews kind of really showed a complete ignorance of history but it's funny because that's actually ... many of the reviews kind of really showed a complete ignorance of history
1:19:25

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and anything beyond New York here it was: and anything beyond New York here it was:
1:19:32

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wasn't one revolution was a series of solutions that were spat a number of years. wasn't one revolution was a series of solutions that were spat a number of years.
1:19:39

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We really have to get under that level of. Anyway. R. M. and It's also in a interesting thing happened. We really have to get under that level of. Anyway. R. M. and It's also in a interesting thing happened.
1:19:48

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Verify
My cousin um lives in New York with her girlfriend. And they are now married actually. But. we were meeting for a drink beforehand My cousin um lives in New York with her girlfriend. And they are now married actually. But. we were meeting for a drink beforehand
1:20:04

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and I had a couple of Australian friends with us and my father and the family and I had a couple of Australian friends with us and my father and the family
1:20:10

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and we went to a little Italian restaurants/ part which I had for love with was just opposite the apartment block grows. and we went to a little Italian restaurants/ part which I had for love with was just opposite the apartment block grows.
1:20:21

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and Sue was waving her iPhone at me, going first reviews have come in and it's fabulous and Sue was waving her iPhone at me, going first reviews have come in and it's fabulous
1:20:32

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and by the time we got to the opening, by the time the show had opened that night, that review had been pulled. And a  and by the time we got to the opening, by the time the show had opened that night, that review had been pulled. And a 
1:20:42

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really lousy wannabe put in its place. really lousy wannabe put in its place.
1:20:44

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They had literally swapped out the review because they could see the tide was heading against the show. [Portus] The same They had literally swapped out the review because they could see the tide was heading against the show. [Portus] The same
1:20:52

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critic rewrites a review when he senses... [Michael] So there were two versions,  there were two versions critic rewrites a review when he senses... [Michael] So there were two versions,  there were two versions
1:20:57

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The review, The review,
1:20:59

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The one that was in the - let's call it at seven thirty before an eight o'clock show - was incredibly positive rave review. By the time The one that was in the - let's call it at seven thirty before an eight o'clock show - was incredibly positive rave review. By the time
1:21:07

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the show had closed. Iit had been swapped out. [Portus] Because they want to be with the right flow. Which is negative. the show had closed. Iit had been swapped out. [Portus] Because they want to be with the right flow. Which is negative.
1:21:13

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[Michael] Absolutely [Portus] How do they know so quickly, the flow? [Michael] Well [Michael] Absolutely [Portus] How do they know so quickly, the flow? [Michael] Well
1:21:17

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and this is the other end of it, as you know the reviews come out literally as you walk out the door of the theatre on and this is the other end of it, as you know the reviews come out literally as you walk out the door of the theatre on
1:21:24

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Broadway. So they are all prepped. Broadway. So they are all prepped.
1:21:27

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The main New York critic had written the review about a week before. [Portus] Having seen what? [Michael] Having seen a preview.  The main New York critic had written the review about a week before. [Portus] Having seen what? [Michael] Having seen a preview. 
1:21:40

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And actually there is a whole little story about that but I'm not going to there. But it was my first Broadway show. And actually there is a whole little story about that but I'm not going to there. But it was my first Broadway show.
1:21:47

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And we're heading off to the party and everyone is looking incredibly glum, And we're heading off to the party and everyone is looking incredibly glum,
1:21:50

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and I'm going: what's wrong with everybody? Because they had seen the reviews. And it was like {click} So that, it's all another world. and I'm going: what's wrong with everybody? Because they had seen the reviews. And it was like {click} So that, it's all another world.
1:22:01

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Really. [Portus] Before we leave that world  Really. [Portus] Before we leave that world 
1:22:04

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It is interesting to comment I mean the American musical does manage to remake itself It is interesting to comment I mean the American musical does manage to remake itself
1:22:09

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and make bold steps sometimes into new territory. But you  and make bold steps sometimes into new territory. But you 
1:22:12

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wonder how with such a cemented and fixed attitude around, about the  making... [Michael] Well I  wonder how with such a cemented and fixed attitude around, about the  making... [Michael] Well I 
1:22:19

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it was so prescriptive about what the elements were that were "a Broadway musical". And this was an epic  it was so prescriptive about what the elements were that were "a Broadway musical". And this was an epic 
1:22:24

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and it just didn't fit that mold, you know. and it just didn't fit that mold, you know.
1:22:28

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I am incredibly proud of it as a as a production. I'm incredibly proud of what I did as a designer. I am incredibly proud of it as a as a production. I'm incredibly proud of what I did as a designer.
1:22:36

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But there are other forces at work. [Portus] Let me ask you then about  designing for musicals more generally, with a reference But there are other forces at work. [Portus] Let me ask you then about  designing for musicals more generally, with a reference
1:22:44

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perhaps to your earlier work you did since Superstar. You designed Pageant, Cabaret, Shout,  which was a successful one about perhaps to your earlier work you did since Superstar. You designed Pageant, Cabaret, Shout,  which was a successful one about
1:22:53

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Johnny O'Keefe in 2001. Are there different rules for designing musicals than operas.  Johnny O'Keefe in 2001. Are there different rules for designing musicals than operas. 
1:23:01

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I think musicals are the hardest things to design by a country mile. Actually much harder than opera. I think musicals are the hardest things to design by a country mile. Actually much harder than opera.
1:23:08

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Opera has a very particular structure and a very particular audience. Musicals are whole other world Opera has a very particular structure and a very particular audience. Musicals are whole other world
1:23:17

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and one of the things that I loved about working with Des learnt a great deal from him was the aspect of how the and one of the things that I loved about working with Des learnt a great deal from him was the aspect of how the
1:23:30

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stagecraft that goes into a musical. stagecraft that goes into a musical.
1:23:33

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that is barrelling along from scene to scene to scene.  Ok we were in one   space. But that one space had to transmogrify you know 30  that is barrelling along from scene to scene to scene.  Ok we were in one   space. But that one space had to transmogrify you know 30 
1:23:44

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times. times.
1:23:45

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How do you do those shifts? He is just brilliant at it. And he, okay yes I provided a design that would do it, How do you do those shifts? He is just brilliant at it. And he, okay yes I provided a design that would do it,
1:23:54

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but then the the execution through the cast but then the the execution through the cast
1:23:58

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and the elements that were brought together in terms of lighting and projection or whatever it might be. Fabulous.  and the elements that were brought together in terms of lighting and projection or whatever it might be. Fabulous. 
1:24:08

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And by way of example, there is a moment And by way of example, there is a moment
1:24:11

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where they go literally from a partisan camp with a fire burning through the stage, literally fire coming out of the stage, can where they go literally from a partisan camp with a fire burning through the stage, literally fire coming out of the stage, can
1:24:24

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we recognise the theme here? To a library in in a country town we recognise the theme here? To a library in in a country town
1:24:32

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basically. And there were about form memeory about eight library desks covered with books basically. And there were about form memeory about eight library desks covered with books
1:24:42

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and working with the choreographer and of course, this is the thing on a musical, choreographer is - basically it goes director, choreographer -  and working with the choreographer and of course, this is the thing on a musical, choreographer is - basically it goes director, choreographer - 
1:24:49

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they're  they're the leading creatives in terms of the rehearsal process they're  they're the leading creatives in terms of the rehearsal process
1:24:54

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and they would drill the cast within an inch of their lives about this transition. So by the time we hit the stage it was and they would drill the cast within an inch of their lives about this transition. So by the time we hit the stage it was
1:25:05

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clockwork. And little things like making the desk into a wheelbarrow with the book stuck on top of the desk, so the clockwork. And little things like making the desk into a wheelbarrow with the book stuck on top of the desk, so the
1:25:14

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fluidity of going from partisan  fluidity of going from partisan 
1:25:16

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and count into literally as layers which aliens on the UN was completely different space and count into literally as layers which aliens on the UN was completely different space
1:25:21

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and I have seen that transition 30 times and think, that's just fabulous. [Portus] That is the magic of theatre  and I have seen that transition 30 times and think, that's just fabulous. [Portus] That is the magic of theatre 
1:25:29

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but it is the thing about musicals is it not? That they do, they show you the transition because it moves too but it is the thing about musicals is it not? That they do, they show you the transition because it moves too
1:25:36

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fast to hold you up for it later. fast to hold you up for it later.
1:25:38

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I guess my point is, if you don't resolve that in a musical, you are done. Dead in the water. and If you lose the pace I guess my point is, if you don't resolve that in a musical, you are done. Dead in the water. and If you lose the pace
1:25:47

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If you lose the pace and the seamlessness of that transition  If you lose the pace and the seamlessness of that transition 
1:25:55

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and I guess the thing that I'm saying really is that I think the Americans of the best the Broadway directors and I guess the thing that I'm saying really is that I think the Americans of the best the Broadway directors
1:26:02

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and choreographers know that. Its stagecraft and choreographers know that. Its stagecraft
1:26:05

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at the end of the day. It's a particular version of stage craft. And they know it inside out. In a way that I think very few at the end of the day. It's a particular version of stage craft. And they know it inside out. In a way that I think very few
1:26:15

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Australians ... I'm not saying we don't do good musicals, Australians ... I'm not saying we don't do good musicals,
1:26:19

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but I think there's a whole other level of how to deal with that. The stage management choreography of what happens on the stage but I think there's a whole other level of how to deal with that. The stage management choreography of what happens on the stage
1:26:25

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to make it a fluid thing. [Portus] You reviewed ... and I suppose to move into the final chapter of our discussion to make it a fluid thing. [Portus] You reviewed ... and I suppose to move into the final chapter of our discussion
1:26:33

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Your together roles and educator you reviewed US design courses are in the development of these here in Australia Your together roles and educator you reviewed US design courses are in the development of these here in Australia
1:26:42

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at ?Yale? at ?Yale?
1:26:42

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and the famous Tisch School of Arts at New York University. You've been talking about it already I suppose in its and the famous Tisch School of Arts at New York University. You've been talking about it already I suppose in its
1:26:50

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Broadway application but what did you find about their approach to the the teaching of design? [Michael] Well at ?Yale? Broadway application but what did you find about their approach to the the teaching of design? [Michael] Well at ?Yale?
1:26:58

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and Williamsons, then the Director, CEO Naylor and Williamsons, then the Director, CEO Naylor
1:27:02

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and I sat in a Ming Cho Lee feedback session to the students. My goodness. It was, he was analysing a presentation and I sat in a Ming Cho Lee feedback session to the students. My goodness. It was, he was analysing a presentation
1:27:12

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of Anne, that these guys did. I think with each student it was about a three hour feedback session. and there were eight students there of Anne, that these guys did. I think with each student it was about a three hour feedback session. and there were eight students there
1:27:19

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and it was... [Portus] On their student design for Annie the Musical? [Michael] Yes and he'd say... and this is where where kind of New York 's fabulous  and it was... [Portus] On their student design for Annie the Musical? [Michael] Yes and he'd say... and this is where where kind of New York 's fabulous 
1:27:32

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He'd say to the student: Yes I can see the bricks that you've chosen for that. He'd say to the student: Yes I can see the bricks that you've chosen for that.
1:27:38

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I think you're about two streets away from where you should be. Because if you go to the street that where it's meant to be I think you're about two streets away from where you should be. Because if you go to the street that where it's meant to be
1:27:45

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you'll see there's a slight colour change in the bricks. you'll see there's a slight colour change in the bricks.
1:27:48

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and it was kind of that level of... you know I mean I wasn't hugely enamoured with the designs, but I thought ... and it was kind of that level of... you know I mean I wasn't hugely enamoured with the designs, but I thought ...
1:27:56

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and there's a great story about [Portus] The level of detail, of realism? and there's a great story about [Portus] The level of detail, of realism?
1:27:60

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Well about the analysis of what is actually... so in other words, Well about the analysis of what is actually... so in other words,
1:28:07

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Annie's a classic obviously, American musical. It's set in New York. and Ming Cho Lee knew every street in New York Annie's a classic obviously, American musical. It's set in New York. and Ming Cho Lee knew every street in New York
1:28:17

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and could say to the student - ah  and could say to the student - ah 
1:28:20

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but I think your two streets away you know. Where you should have been was XYZ. But these feedback sessions but I think your two streets away you know. Where you should have been was XYZ. But these feedback sessions
1:28:28

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would go for hours.  would go for hours. 
1:28:29

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And as we were exiting, we passed one student who was running downstairs to for a cigarette and was kind of over it And as we were exiting, we passed one student who was running downstairs to for a cigarette and was kind of over it
1:28:37

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and and was saying we were saying, My goodness they are long sessions aren't they? and and was saying we were saying, My goodness they are long sessions aren't they?
1:28:42

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He said: Yes they are about half the length they used to be. [laughter] Like you can't ... you've got to be kidding.  But Tisch Tisch was  He said: Yes they are about half the length they used to be. [laughter] Like you can't ... you've got to be kidding.  But Tisch Tisch was 
1:28:59

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was very interesting, in that you know you look at the facilities NIDA have and Tisch is a fabulous school, was very interesting, in that you know you look at the facilities NIDA have and Tisch is a fabulous school,
1:29:07

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but it's got nothing like what we have here. Like nothing at all. I mean they they have a small theatre space, they don't have  but it's got nothing like what we have here. Like nothing at all. I mean they they have a small theatre space, they don't have 
1:29:16

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a proscenium theatre space. It's ... it was a very cursory look at that point in time. a proscenium theatre space. It's ... it was a very cursory look at that point in time.
1:29:24

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[Portus] At theatre design? [Michael] No no  I mean us looking at Tisch. I think I spent two days there - max. You know. [Portus] At theatre design? [Michael] No no  I mean us looking at Tisch. I think I spent two days there - max. You know.
1:29:36

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On the... the Broadway experience gave me the opportunity to work with two associate designers, On the... the Broadway experience gave me the opportunity to work with two associate designers,
1:29:44

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both of whom taught at Tisch. So I actually got to  both of whom taught at Tisch. So I actually got to 
1:29:47

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know Tisch much better through that link. One taught into the BFA program and the other the MFA program know Tisch much better through that link. One taught into the BFA program and the other the MFA program
1:29:55

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and in fact I went in and did a critique on a production, a theoretical production that the designers were doing. and in fact I went in and did a critique on a production, a theoretical production that the designers were doing.
1:30:06

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Which is interesting. Really interesting for me to see, the sort of approach that they had.  Good designers actually. Which is interesting. Really interesting for me to see, the sort of approach that they had.  Good designers actually.
1:30:14

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But can you identify something and that is American about their approach? But can you identify something and that is American about their approach?
1:30:20

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Your anecdotes so far suggest a sort of great eye for detail. [Michael] Yeah that that was Annie at Yale and that, Your anecdotes so far suggest a sort of great eye for detail. [Michael] Yeah that that was Annie at Yale and that,
1:30:28

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of what I would call a pretty conservative approach to how that music was being done that, of what I would call a pretty conservative approach to how that music was being done that,
1:30:36

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then that was that musical. And I think their expectations about how that musical, which is in itself a problem. then that was that musical. And I think their expectations about how that musical, which is in itself a problem.
1:30:43

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But the guys at Tisch were much more experimental. But the guys at Tisch were much more experimental.
1:30:49

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Some of them were really quite interesting, unexpected explorations of how to deal ... Some of them were really quite interesting, unexpected explorations of how to deal ...
1:31:01

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And how does  the ... before we return to Australia with this question And how does  the ... before we return to Australia with this question
1:31:07

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How in the US is the profession of the set designer  regarded? By the people in the industry itself? How in the US is the profession of the set designer  regarded? By the people in the industry itself?
1:31:15

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and outside? [Michael] Well let's just talk about Broadway, and outside? [Michael] Well let's just talk about Broadway,
1:31:20

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which is my experience. A bizarre thing happened early on in the process. I went across the first time to New York to meet the which is my experience. A bizarre thing happened early on in the process. I went across the first time to New York to meet the
1:31:28

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producers who were one company. The production services, which was another com.. company. And the producer had said producers who were one company. The production services, which was another com.. company. And the producer had said
1:31:43

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when you arrive, on your first morning we want you to meet three designers who when you arrive, on your first morning we want you to meet three designers who
1:31:49

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and you can choose one of the monsieur associate E. and you can choose one of the monsieur associate E.
1:31:53

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If you have another preference as five, but we we've gather together three that when Ireland. If you have another preference as five, but we we've gather together three that when Ireland.
1:31:58

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we have worked with. And know will be able to do the gig. and I thought so this is all fabulous. So I met the and chose one we have worked with. And know will be able to do the gig. and I thought so this is all fabulous. So I met the and chose one
1:32:09

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and from that moment on, every workshop every production person would just talk to the associate. And I came back and from that moment on, every workshop every production person would just talk to the associate. And I came back
1:32:21

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and I was talking to Noel Staunton about this and going: What's going on? and I was talking to Noel Staunton about this and going: What's going on?
1:32:25

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I'm standing there and they are just talking to the associate. He said, oh no darling I'm standing there and they are just talking to the associate. He said, oh no darling
1:32:29

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 you're much higher above that rank. You are the designer of the production.  you're much higher above that rank. You are the designer of the production.
1:32:35

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and but it's not just that. it's the fact that many of the Broadway designers are doing and but it's not just that. it's the fact that many of the Broadway designers are doing
1:32:42

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as I do, many shows simultaneously. So the linchpin is actually the associates. So all communication goes through the as I do, many shows simultaneously. So the linchpin is actually the associates. So all communication goes through the
1:32:49

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associate, fed back to the designer for a decision, and then the associate takes it back to the carpentry workshop associate, fed back to the designer for a decision, and then the associate takes it back to the carpentry workshop
1:32:56

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or wherever it might be. So there is a real logic about why it's established that way. But of course or wherever it might be. So there is a real logic about why it's established that way. But of course
1:33:01

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being you know an Aussie bloke and an Aussie designer. I'd go, excuse me I'm standing next to you. You can just ask me that question. So over a being you know an Aussie bloke and an Aussie designer. I'd go, excuse me I'm standing next to you. You can just ask me that question. So over a
1:33:09

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period of time and it was a long build period. Brett Banakis who was my associate, and I...  period of time and it was a long build period. Brett Banakis who was my associate, and I... 
1:33:16

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He knew that if I was in the room. He knew that if I was in the room.
1:33:17

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Then I would just want to talk straight to the people doing it. [Portus] I suppose that means you are highly regarded, or the profession of set design Then I would just want to talk straight to the people doing it. [Portus] I suppose that means you are highly regarded, or the profession of set design
1:33:24

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is highly regarded. [Michael] Very much so. [Portus]  Or it could suggest it is less regarded. [Michael] No  is highly regarded. [Michael] Very much so. [Portus]  Or it could suggest it is less regarded. [Michael] No 
1:33:30

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No it's very .. you ...  essentially the designer, set, and costume, director and choreographer are  No it's very .. you ...  essentially the designer, set, and costume, director and choreographer are 
1:33:40

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and the, if it's a musical,  the librettist and composers, that's all the top rank people on the show. and the, if it's a musical,  the librettist and composers, that's all the top rank people on the show.
1:33:48

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And you ...[Portus] You left out lighting? [Michael[ Yes and lighting yes.   And you ...[Portus] You left out lighting? [Michael[ Yes and lighting yes.  
1:33:53

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Let's put it a different way. The creative team are very highly regarded very highly respected. Let's put it a different way. The creative team are very highly regarded very highly respected.
1:33:59

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And there are minions below each of those areas that do the day-to-day communication. And you're not in And there are minions below each of those areas that do the day-to-day communication. And you're not in
1:34:09

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And just briefly I'm interested in how you chose that associate designer. You as a designer, what priority did you give And just briefly I'm interested in how you chose that associate designer. You as a designer, what priority did you give
1:34:15

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to what kind of questions in the short time you have. [Michael] Well, part of it is, hard is this person selling themselves? Can to what kind of questions in the short time you have. [Michael] Well, part of it is, hard is this person selling themselves? Can
1:34:27

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I work with this person? It it is a personal response. I work with this person? It it is a personal response.
1:34:32

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Brett of course go either militant and some popular lots of things have been Brett of course go either militant and some popular lots of things have been
1:34:37

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but there was a directness about him that I immediately... [Portus] Brett was your [Michael] Yeah Brett  but there was a directness about him that I immediately... [Portus] Brett was your [Michael] Yeah Brett 
1:34:41

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Verify
Brett Banakis, [Portus] your associate Director on Chicago.  [Michale] Yes He was fabulous. Brett Banakis, [Portus] your associate Director on Chicago.  [Michale] Yes He was fabulous.
1:34:47

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and then I met another... Brett had to pull out for a while because he was doing another show, so a second associate came in who was equally terrific and then I met another... Brett had to pull out for a while because he was doing another show, so a second associate came in who was equally terrific
1:34:55

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for the two of them. for the two of them.
1:34:55

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I've sort of kept in contact with. [Portus] I was asking you first about Yale and Tisch that you were looking at I've sort of kept in contact with. [Portus] I was asking you first about Yale and Tisch that you were looking at
1:35:01

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when you were were reforming courses back at home, when you were were reforming courses back at home,
1:35:04

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at NIDA. Your decade-long interest in, well longer, in teaching design, but in teaching just at NIDA alone at NIDA. Your decade-long interest in, well longer, in teaching design, but in teaching just at NIDA alone
1:35:11

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in that period, is this just another necessary string to the bow to a working jobbing designer? in that period, is this just another necessary string to the bow to a working jobbing designer?
1:35:19

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or is this something more? is there something more that drives you? As an educator? [Michael] No it's a total passion really or is this something more? is there something more that drives you? As an educator? [Michael] No it's a total passion really
1:35:27

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It's not... for some people teaching is not. It's not... for some people teaching is not.
1:35:30

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It's an extra but... [Michael] My agent Virginia Braden who, she's now  retired, but It's an extra but... [Michael] My agent Virginia Braden who, she's now  retired, but
1:35:41

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when I was contemplating going to NIDA. She said, look by all means do it, when I was contemplating going to NIDA. She said, look by all means do it,
1:35:47

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but just realise that you gonna have two full-time careers and that's exactly what I have. It's not... the teaching isn't but just realise that you gonna have two full-time careers and that's exactly what I have. It's not... the teaching isn't
1:35:53

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and paying further one or vice versa. It's i.e. and paying further one or vice versa. It's i.e.
1:35:59

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I'm very committed in developing the voice of  young artists in Australia, I'm very committed in developing the voice of  young artists in Australia,
1:36:04

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you know, don't forget this is something that my mother absolutely instilled in us you know, don't forget this is something that my mother absolutely instilled in us
1:36:10

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and we have actually, all as siblings, we have all been teachers at different points in time. My sister Anthea has just stepped and we have actually, all as siblings, we have all been teachers at different points in time. My sister Anthea has just stepped
1:36:20

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down as head of strings at Newcastle Conservatorium. We all do it. And it's sort of a passion. And  down as head of strings at Newcastle Conservatorium. We all do it. And it's sort of a passion. And 
1:36:32

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it is actually, apart from the [inaudible] it is actually, apart from the [inaudible]
1:36:34

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It's incredibly informative because you have two literally vocalise the things that you do in your heart, It's incredibly informative because you have two literally vocalise the things that you do in your heart,
1:36:44

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make it real, make it presentable to the student. And then you find kind of inspiration on the way coming back. make it real, make it presentable to the student. And then you find kind of inspiration on the way coming back.
1:36:55

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The other way. It's very much a complement to the professional work. But more and more  The other way. It's very much a complement to the professional work. But more and more 
1:37:08

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Hi, I see part of my pretentious Hi, I see part of my pretentious
1:37:12

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but part of my legacy is trying to help as many young artists evolve as I can.  Because we need as a country, as unfettered but part of my legacy is trying to help as many young artists evolve as I can.  Because we need as a country, as unfettered
1:37:22

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voices who are capable of reflecting on our society voices who are capable of reflecting on our society
1:37:26

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and helping you know... as I read a fantastic quote from Brecht the other day saying: Art isn't a mirror on society, and helping you know... as I read a fantastic quote from Brecht the other day saying: Art isn't a mirror on society,
1:37:36

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It's a sledgehammer to mold it, brutally. I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Anyway I think there are I think there It's a sledgehammer to mold it, brutally. I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Anyway I think there are I think there
1:37:47

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are difficult times that we're going through at the moment in terms of society are difficult times that we're going through at the moment in terms of society
1:37:52

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and in terms of a, what I see a deep conservatism in the younger generation. And some real issues that have evolved.  and in terms of a, what I see a deep conservatism in the younger generation. And some real issues that have evolved. 
1:38:03

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Which as much as I been able to research it, seemed to have come out of, linked to the global financial crisis Which as much as I been able to research it, seemed to have come out of, linked to the global financial crisis
1:38:11

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and that's the point in time when parents started the notion of the helicopter parent came, and wrapping children, and that's the point in time when parents started the notion of the helicopter parent came, and wrapping children,
1:38:17

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in cotton wool and protecting them in every possible way from anything that might harm them. That has done a great great in cotton wool and protecting them in every possible way from anything that might harm them. That has done a great great
1:38:24

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disservice to that generation. And ...so there are..[Portus] Are you prising them back open? disservice to that generation. And ...so there are..[Portus] Are you prising them back open?
1:38:33

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and do you feel? Is that what you are saying? [Michael] I'm looking for the ones that are not so affected by that, and who are actually brave and do you feel? Is that what you are saying? [Michael] I'm looking for the ones that are not so affected by that, and who are actually brave
1:38:41

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and want to go to extraordinary places. And they are there and want to go to extraordinary places. And they are there
1:38:45

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and I would want.... the component of the society that I'm talking about, or the generation I'm talking  and I would want.... the component of the society that I'm talking about, or the generation I'm talking 
1:38:50

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about maybe it's twenty five percent of that generation, but some seriously conservative thinking is going on. And about maybe it's twenty five percent of that generation, but some seriously conservative thinking is going on. And
1:38:59

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and let me give you an example. We had two students last year, and let me give you an example. We had two students last year,
1:39:04

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at NIDA who refused to go to a lecture on Death of a Salesman because it talked about suicide. at NIDA who refused to go to a lecture on Death of a Salesman because it talked about suicide.
1:39:12

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And they didn't want to be confronted by the fact that that would make them feel uncomfortable. And you're going, this may not  And they didn't want to be confronted by the fact that that would make them feel uncomfortable. And you're going, this may not 
1:39:19

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be the profession for you. be the profession for you.
1:39:21

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If you're not prepared to actually tackle complex and difficult ideas, what you doing here? If you're not prepared to actually tackle complex and difficult ideas, what you doing here?
1:39:27

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So I guess... I had some feedback from a couple of designer ?students? who had to do a feedback on their courses So I guess... I had some feedback from a couple of designer ?students? who had to do a feedback on their courses
1:39:41

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and one of them proudly said: we are encouraged to be as creative as we can possibly can be. No holds barred. And  another one and one of them proudly said: we are encouraged to be as creative as we can possibly can be. No holds barred. And  another one
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said: some parameters might be helpful. But I mean I guess I said: some parameters might be helpful. But I mean I guess I
1:39:55

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I guess I am on the lookout for extraordinary talent that can help this society grow. And I guess I am on the lookout for extraordinary talent that can help this society grow. And
1:40:03

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and be exactly the reverse of what I've just described - a brave group people who are prepared to explore complex ideas and difficult and be exactly the reverse of what I've just described - a brave group people who are prepared to explore complex ideas and difficult
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ideas because, heaven knows, we need it. You know, pick a moment in history when there aren't. ideas because, heaven knows, we need it. You know, pick a moment in history when there aren't.
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But there are some really difficult things that are happening But there are some really difficult things that are happening
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and I... the notion of this kind of conservatism is a complete anathema to me and I... the notion of this kind of conservatism is a complete anathema to me
1:40:29

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and I just want to do everything I can to fight it. [Portus] You did speak powerfully in our first interview earlier about the and I just want to do everything I can to fight it. [Portus] You did speak powerfully in our first interview earlier about the
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significance of particular mentors [Michael] yes, [Portus] that you had in your own life significance of particular mentors [Michael] yes, [Portus] that you had in your own life
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and a collaborative arm strength of your work which fits sometimes oddly with the image of the of the eco- star even I and a collaborative arm strength of your work which fits sometimes oddly with the image of the of the eco- star even I
1:40:50

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a creative team of designers or whatever. [Michael] Yeah,  look I a creative team of designers or whatever. [Michael] Yeah,  look I
1:40:56

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My modern life is that I'm very happy to hear every opinion is on the recognises that I'm right arm. My modern life is that I'm very happy to hear every opinion is on the recognises that I'm right arm.
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Now I'm being facetious, but I'm not. Now I'm being facetious, but I'm not.
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I have always been driven by my guts rearing I have always been driven by my guts rearing
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and terms of... it was an interesting conversation that I was having with Stephen Curtis and he was saying and terms of... it was an interesting conversation that I was having with Stephen Curtis and he was saying
1:41:26

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well when I do a design for a director, in fact it came up in that talk that we did, you did with him last year, well when I do a design for a director, in fact it came up in that talk that we did, you did with him last year,
1:41:34

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but about well, he said. but about well, he said.
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I will, I might do we know nine different sketch models for a director before we like, I will, I might do we know nine different sketch models for a director before we like,
1:41:43

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on the way we are going to go. That would drive me to absolute utter distraction. Because my processes on the way we are going to go. That would drive me to absolute utter distraction. Because my processes
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actually, having an instinctual reaction to the work. actually, having an instinctual reaction to the work.
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The process from that point is refine refine refine refine [Portus] In collaboration [Michael] in collaboration, The process from that point is refine refine refine refine [Portus] In collaboration [Michael] in collaboration,
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but it's in refining process having you having a complete gut feeling that this is the way to go, but it's in refining process having you having a complete gut feeling that this is the way to go,
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you put something fairly certain on the table, [Michael] Yeah [Portus] before the collaboration. [Michael] Yeah that's right. [Portus] You've been head if design at NIDA you put something fairly certain on the table, [Michael] Yeah [Portus] before the collaboration. [Michael] Yeah that's right. [Portus] You've been head if design at NIDA
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since 2009, Director of undergraduate studies until to 2016 since 2009, Director of undergraduate studies until to 2016
1:42:23

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and since then Deputy Director of NIDA. So ... and teaching elsewhere before that, and since then Deputy Director of NIDA. So ... and teaching elsewhere before that,
1:42:29

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but in the last decade associated with NIDA, so can I ask you what has changed in how we teach design?  but in the last decade associated with NIDA, so can I ask you what has changed in how we teach design? 
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Oh I think principles of that haven't shifted.  I ..I ..to answer that more fully Oh I think principles of that haven't shifted.  I ..I ..to answer that more fully
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I attended a benchmarking exercise in Hong Kong a couple of months ago with the Hong Kong Academy of Performing Arts who are I attended a benchmarking exercise in Hong Kong a couple of months ago with the Hong Kong Academy of Performing Arts who are
1:42:54

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doing a curriculum review and they, on doing a curriculum review and they, on
1:42:59

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and they are doing a very serious job in doing that review. They've invited nineteen guests from around the planet to come and they are doing a very serious job in doing that review. They've invited nineteen guests from around the planet to come
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and give feedback on their curriculum development, in four groups. and I was with a group of five other people and give feedback on their curriculum development, in four groups. and I was with a group of five other people
1:43:17

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and it was a fabulous week. And it's interesting how important it is for people working within a particular field to actually have a  and it was a fabulous week. And it's interesting how important it is for people working within a particular field to actually have a 
1:43:27

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dialogue about their approach to to ... exploration. dialogue about their approach to to ... exploration.
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but and I have to say I came away feeling very strongly that what we were doing broadly in NIDA training was on on the right but and I have to say I came away feeling very strongly that what we were doing broadly in NIDA training was on on the right
1:43:45

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path. path.
1:43:46

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I'm not saying there aren't errors that need particular attention,  or could develop. but there was a very interesting guy I'm not saying there aren't errors that need particular attention,  or could develop. but there was a very interesting guy
1:43:53

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from, who used to run the, Thomas, I can't pronounce or remember his surname, Thomas ran the Sibelius Academy in Helsinki from, who used to run the, Thomas, I can't pronounce or remember his surname, Thomas ran the Sibelius Academy in Helsinki
1:44:05

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He now has left that as a consultant talking about leading creativity He now has left that as a consultant talking about leading creativity
1:44:11

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and he said something which I do again instinctively, which is to:  you establish the parameters, he would and he said something which I do again instinctively, which is to:  you establish the parameters, he would
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describe it as you make this the sandpit or define the sandpit and then you invite the students to play. And I more describe it as you make this the sandpit or define the sandpit and then you invite the students to play. And I more
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and more and more believe this to be the case. That actually they need to have ownership of their own development and more and more believe this to be the case. That actually they need to have ownership of their own development
1:44:39

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and expiration. and expiration.
1:44:41

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You just need to set the right parameters for that happen. And by way of example, You just need to set the right parameters for that happen. And by way of example,
1:44:47

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we do the Director/designer productions at the end of the year, graduating production of the end of the year we do the Director/designer productions at the end of the year, graduating production of the end of the year
1:44:54

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and there's a team that has evolved. ?Charlotte? Montgomery, who is the designer who I met when she was seventeen in Brisbane. and there's a team that has evolved. ?Charlotte? Montgomery, who is the designer who I met when she was seventeen in Brisbane.
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She'd done the baccalaureate training. Her parents lived on the Gold Coast. They bought a small flat in Brisbane. She'd done the baccalaureate training. Her parents lived on the Gold Coast. They bought a small flat in Brisbane.
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She had been living all week by myself from inner last two years school, She had been living all week by myself from inner last two years school,
1:45:23

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so she had already, at seventeen was quite an independent person. But a kind of remarkable a remarkable talent and so she had already, at seventeen was quite an independent person. But a kind of remarkable a remarkable talent and
1:45:33

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and then we met another, interestingly enough, another young woman from Brisbane who was a filmmaker and then we met another, interestingly enough, another young woman from Brisbane who was a filmmaker
1:45:40

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and she wanted come to NIDA as a director to learn about dealing with actors. Anyway long story short, and she wanted come to NIDA as a director to learn about dealing with actors. Anyway long story short,
1:45:49

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the two of them. the two of them.
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Started collaborating. And the work that they are doing is just amazing. Started collaborating. And the work that they are doing is just amazing.
1:45:54

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And it is is all the things I was talking about before. How do you integrate  in in their director graduating production last year. And it is is all the things I was talking about before. How do you integrate  in in their director graduating production last year.
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They were using live feed from a cameraman on stage and projecting this into the back of the space. And  They were using live feed from a cameraman on stage and projecting this into the back of the space. And 
1:46:12

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it was just a really fabulous work. And it was just a really fabulous work. And
1:46:17

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but again that's that has evolved by in that instance Nagel Gibbs for directing and as head of design, setting the but again that's that has evolved by in that instance Nagel Gibbs for directing and as head of design, setting the
1:46:25

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parameters for the evolution of that those two to grow. We recently had a director pull out at the last minute parameters for the evolution of that those two to grow. We recently had a director pull out at the last minute
1:46:36

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and so after a lot of soul-searching over the one weekend and about 20 calls between Nagel and myself, we said and so after a lot of soul-searching over the one weekend and about 20 calls between Nagel and myself, we said
1:46:44

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Let's give those guys the bins in. Let's give those guys the bins in.
1:46:46

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Let's put them in and... in fact Madeleine Humphreys, who is the director hasn't technically graduated Let's put them in and... in fact Madeleine Humphreys, who is the director hasn't technically graduated
1:46:54

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but the work is so remarkable good time. but the work is so remarkable good time.
1:46:57

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They're  off and running again. So I guess it's a long way of describing the fact, the thing that I have always They're  off and running again. So I guess it's a long way of describing the fact, the thing that I have always
1:47:07

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sentenced again instinctively about teaching was kind of ratified sentenced again instinctively about teaching was kind of ratified
1:47:14

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and confirmed by the discussion that I had in Hong Kong. Because Thomas was saying exactly the same thing about leading and confirmed by the discussion that I had in Hong Kong. Because Thomas was saying exactly the same thing about leading
1:47:24

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creativity is essentially about building the sandpit and going: come on, come and play in the sandpit  creativity is essentially about building the sandpit and going: come on, come and play in the sandpit 
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when they come out of the sandpit when they come out of the sandpit
1:47:36

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and go into the profession, how is,  as I asked about the American situation, the regard for designers, how has that shifted and go into the profession, how is,  as I asked about the American situation, the regard for designers, how has that shifted
1:47:45

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in the time that you been working within the Australian industry? And and in critical debate, from the bad old days in the time that you been working within the Australian industry? And and in critical debate, from the bad old days
1:47:53

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when you were just painting? You were just scenic paint setters [Michael] Yes I the antecedents. when you were just painting? You were just scenic paint setters [Michael] Yes I the antecedents.
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I guess of the set designer [Portus] Best decorators [Michael] Or stage decor as my neighbour used to say. Look I actually think we've I guess of the set designer [Portus] Best decorators [Michael] Or stage decor as my neighbour used to say. Look I actually think we've
1:48:11

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slipped in the last two years. slipped in the last two years.
1:48:13

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I think I think there is 's in society, there is less and less regard the artist is my broad perception. I think I think there is 's in society, there is less and less regard the artist is my broad perception.
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I think in the profession of theatre and in film the desires are not us highly regarded I think in the profession of theatre and in film the desires are not us highly regarded
1:48:36

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or respected as they once were. And I'm talking about when I started my career or respected as they once were. And I'm talking about when I started my career
1:48:43

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You were very much, you know, if you are doing the work well and coming up with interesting stuff, you were highly regarded You were very much, you know, if you are doing the work well and coming up with interesting stuff, you were highly regarded
1:48:50

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And this this is a subtle thing, but it's to do with management and how management treat people. There's been a And this this is a subtle thing, but it's to do with management and how management treat people. There's been a
1:48:58

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real set I think real set I think
1:48:60

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and [Portus] Is this because the designer has faded into a naturalistic background? [Michael]  probably [Portus] of conservative set making? [Michael] Yes that's right  and [Portus] Is this because the designer has faded into a naturalistic background? [Michael]  probably [Portus] of conservative set making? [Michael] Yes that's right 
1:49:08

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Beauty, the pursuit of beauty. Look I don't know. I think there's many things feeding into that, but I, I Beauty, the pursuit of beauty. Look I don't know. I think there's many things feeding into that, but I, I
1:49:17

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and I don't think it's as the profession. and I don't think it's as the profession.
1:49:19

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I think this society broadly speaking, has less and less time for the artists at this moment in time, I think this society broadly speaking, has less and less time for the artists at this moment in time,
1:49:27

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and I think that's a great tragedy. And that's generalising, of course it's generalising and I think that's a great tragedy. And that's generalising, of course it's generalising
1:49:34

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and I'm really talking mainly about Australia. and I'm really talking mainly about Australia.
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and my experience in Australia. But I think there's a kind of attitude of - who gives a stuff about the artist? and my experience in Australia. But I think there's a kind of attitude of - who gives a stuff about the artist?
1:49:46

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Look that's, that's a very generalised statement. But and I have to say ...my own work  Look that's, that's a very generalised statement. But and I have to say ...my own work 
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I very regularly get very positive feedback, so I should ... I'm biting the hand that feeds me, I very regularly get very positive feedback, so I should ... I'm biting the hand that feeds me,
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But I do feel as been a real shift in my career in terms of the basic attitude to to the artist But I do feel as been a real shift in my career in terms of the basic attitude to to the artist
1:50:10

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and what's next for you Michael? Are you... you're doing more cauldrons aren't you? and what's next for you Michael? Are you... you're doing more cauldrons aren't you?
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Yes well I am I am doing a pitch for the celebration of the fiftieth year of reign of the Sultan of Brunei. So will see Yes well I am I am doing a pitch for the celebration of the fiftieth year of reign of the Sultan of Brunei. So will see
1:50:29

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how that goes. Needless to say, budget is not a concern. So it's interesting exercise just on that level. Even with Doha how that goes. Needless to say, budget is not a concern. So it's interesting exercise just on that level. Even with Doha
1:50:39

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which had a very healthy budget, there were there were things were cut because of the budget. You know which had a very healthy budget, there were there were things were cut because of the budget. You know
1:50:47

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[Portus] And from the pictures that you have shown me for Brunei, possible models. In some cases, a sea of cauldrons. [Michael]  yes  [Portus] And from the pictures that you have shown me for Brunei, possible models. In some cases, a sea of cauldrons. [Michael]  yes 
1:50:54

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one particular version I'm doing that has fifty cauldrons. Because somebody mentioned to me that money was no object. [laughter] So that's a very dangerous one particular version I'm doing that has fifty cauldrons. Because somebody mentioned to me that money was no object. [laughter] So that's a very dangerous
1:51:03

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thing to say to me. In fact there's a funny story, when Elke Neidhardt had come back to Australia and was looking  for an thing to say to me. In fact there's a funny story, when Elke Neidhardt had come back to Australia and was looking  for an
1:51:11

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Australian team to do Tannhauser, the connection was that she knew Nick Australian team to do Tannhauser, the connection was that she knew Nick
1:51:16

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very well. And she said famously to Nick at one point very well. And she said famously to Nick at one point
1:51:22

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Yes yes I like him, but can he do big? Yup I've never quite lived that down.  Yes yes I like him, but can he do big? Yup I've never quite lived that down. 
1:51:30

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Finally Michael do you often wonder what sort of things you would have built if you had stayed or  Finally Michael do you often wonder what sort of things you would have built if you had stayed or 
1:51:37

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become a full-time account... architect? [Michael] Well I  become a full-time account... architect? [Michael] Well I 
1:51:44

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A funny enough I keep drifting in A funny enough I keep drifting in
1:51:46

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and out of that world. And most recently with with my own house. Working with Bill McMahon who was one of my partners in D-4. So and out of that world. And most recently with with my own house. Working with Bill McMahon who was one of my partners in D-4. So
1:51:57

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the 2 of us have sort of balanced ideas [Portus] D-4 the design company that you ran together briefly in the late '80s the 2 of us have sort of balanced ideas [Portus] D-4 the design company that you ran together briefly in the late '80s
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[Michael] Yeah. So it's never totally disappeared. And of course... [Portus] So are you rebuilding your house? [Michael] Yeah. So it's never totally disappeared. And of course... [Portus] So are you rebuilding your house?
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I have have rebuilt it.  I have have rebuilt it. 
1:52:11

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[Portus] Where is your house? [Michael] In Marrickville. Which is, I have to say I'm kind of thrilled that I ended up there because I am, I would be [Portus] Where is your house? [Michael] In Marrickville. Which is, I have to say I'm kind of thrilled that I ended up there because I am, I would be
1:52:21

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about two streets away from where my grandfather started his furniture factory in 1908. about two streets away from where my grandfather started his furniture factory in 1908.
1:52:27

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So there's a  real sense of history there for me. Very important family history. And I absolutely love that area   So there's a  real sense of history there for me. Very important family history. And I absolutely love that area  
1:52:39

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The children are loving being there The children are loving being there
1:52:40

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and so they're at Newtown [School of] Performing Arts. Which is wonderful school because of actually teaches every student to be accepting and so they're at Newtown [School of] Performing Arts. Which is wonderful school because of actually teaches every student to be accepting
1:52:51

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of every other. of every other.
1:52:53

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I'm not saying there aren't factions but generally speaking, they are incredibly caring and respectful of one another's I'm not saying there aren't factions but generally speaking, they are incredibly caring and respectful of one another's
1:53:04

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opinions and that's that's a good thing, opinions and that's that's a good thing,
1:53:06

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[Portus] And how old are your children? [Michael] Basil is 17, and I think I mentioned my wife, apart from her day job has taken up the [Portus] And how old are your children? [Michael] Basil is 17, and I think I mentioned my wife, apart from her day job has taken up the
1:53:19

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ukulele with a passion. And has formed a group called the Daily Specials. And they are about to have  ukulele with a passion. And has formed a group called the Daily Specials. And they are about to have 
1:53:24

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and their first solo gig at the Gasoline Pony next week and their first solo gig at the Gasoline Pony next week
1:53:31

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and looking for a support band, they went no further than my son's band, The philosopher. And so they're and looking for a support band, they went no further than my son's band, The philosopher. And so they're
1:53:38

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My wife has been supported by my son on stage, which will be an interesting evening. My wife has been supported by my son on stage, which will be an interesting evening.
1:53:44

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and Claude my daughter, who is named up my grandfather Claude, who started the furniture factory, has just literally moved to London and Claude my daughter, who is named up my grandfather Claude, who started the furniture factory, has just literally moved to London
1:53:53

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and she said when I asked her what she would like as a return date. and she said when I asked her what she would like as a return date.
1:53:57

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Why would I want a return date? I'm never coming back. But essentially she's going to apply for Lambda RADA  and  Why would I want a return date? I'm never coming back. But essentially she's going to apply for Lambda RADA  and 
1:54:05

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and Central as an actor. And is determined by hook or by crook to end up in the Royal Shakespeare Company. She's not interested  and Central as an actor. And is determined by hook or by crook to end up in the Royal Shakespeare Company. She's not interested 
1:54:16

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in film. Is only interested in being a stage actor. And that's her path. And to achieve that end in film. Is only interested in being a stage actor. And that's her path. And to achieve that end
1:54:23

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she has worked at the Cow Moon Gelato store in Enmore Road, for 2 years at the rate of ten dollars an hour and has managed to save she has worked at the Cow Moon Gelato store in Enmore Road, for 2 years at the rate of ten dollars an hour and has managed to save
1:54:33

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ten thousand dollars towards this. ten thousand dollars towards this.
1:54:36

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She is a very determined young woman one on one say I think perhaps text after, She is a very determined young woman one on one say I think perhaps text after,
1:54:41

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a combination of my wife and my mother who are equally determined people. Yeah. [Portus] And so it goes on. Michael Scott-Mitchell thank you a combination of my wife and my mother who are equally determined people. Yeah. [Portus] And so it goes on. Michael Scott-Mitchell thank you
1:54:50

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for talking with pleasure. Thank you so much for talking with pleasure. Thank you so much