Amplify

Transcription Conventions		Examples
Language	English (Australian)	“Colour” not “Color”, “Organise” not “Organize”
Contractions	Transcribe as you hear them	“Shoulda”, “Didn’t”
Numbers	Transcribe as numerals	“11 West 40th Street”
Filled Pauses & Hesitations	Transcribe as you hear them	“ah”, “eh”, “um”
Noise	Transcribe in brackets; use descriptive language	“And then we [door slam]”, “So cold! [Brrrrr]”
Partial words	If someone stops speaking in the middle of a word, transcribe as much of the word as they say; follow it with a dash	“Tes- Testing”, “Absolu- Absolutely”
Hard-to-understand	For speech that is difficult or impossible to understand, use question marks before and after	“And she told me that ?I should just leave?”, “Her name was ?inaudible?”
Change of speaker	Sometimes multiple people will speak on the same line. Use square brackets to indicate change of speaker.	[John] Yes, it was a very interesting time. [Susan] And what have you learnt from it?

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My name is Martin Portus My name is Martin Portus

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and I'm interviewing the Sydney costume designer Jennifer Irwin on the 2nd of May, 2017 and I'm interviewing the Sydney costume designer Jennifer Irwin on the 2nd of May, 2017

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in the studio of the Redfern in the studio of the Redfern

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community centre in Sydney. This oral history interview is being conducted for the State Library of New South Wales oral community centre in Sydney. This oral history interview is being conducted for the State Library of New South Wales oral

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history collection. Jennifer has been a prolific designer, working with the Australian Ballet, Opera Australia, history collection. Jennifer has been a prolific designer, working with the Australian Ballet, Opera Australia,

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the Sydney Theatre Company and Belvoir Theatre. But she's distinguished as a costume designer for dance. the Sydney Theatre Company and Belvoir Theatre. But she's distinguished as a costume designer for dance.

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Notably with Graeme Murphy Sydney Dance Company since 1984 Notably with Graeme Murphy Sydney Dance Company since 1984

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and as resident designer for Bangarra. Jennifer, thanks for sharing your story with us. [Jennifer] Thank you. [Martin] Tell us about your childhood and as resident designer for Bangarra. Jennifer, thanks for sharing your story with us. [Jennifer] Thank you. [Martin] Tell us about your childhood

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and your family. and your family.

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Okay, childhood, um, I was born in, I was born, I was born in Randwick at the, at the, um, War Memorial Hospital, um, which my Okay, childhood, um, I was born in, I was born, I was born in Randwick at the, at the, um, War Memorial Hospital, um, which my

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great-grandfather built actually, um, but I grew up on the North Shore, um, East Killara - West Killara, West Killara, great-grandfather built actually, um, but I grew up on the North Shore, um, East Killara - West Killara, West Killara,

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Bowes Avenue. Went to Beaumont Road Public School and then at, ah, then at about ten years old then we moved to St Ives. Bowes Avenue. Went to Beaumont Road Public School and then at, ah, then at about ten years old then we moved to St Ives.

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And then I was there for South St Ives Public School for two years and then I went to PLC in first form at Pymble. And then I was there for South St Ives Public School for two years and then I went to PLC in first form at Pymble.

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[Martin] And who's "we"? [Jennifer] We? [Martin] Your family. [Jennifer] Me. Um, Mum, Dad and my older sister who's five and a half years older than me - Jane. [Martin] And who's "we"? [Jennifer] We? [Martin] Your family. [Jennifer] Me. Um, Mum, Dad and my older sister who's five and a half years older than me - Jane.

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Um, which was quite a gap between us. She, by the time I was about 14 Um, which was quite a gap between us. She, by the time I was about 14

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she'd left home and gone overseas. Ah, I had, I had a dog she'd left home and gone overseas. Ah, I had, I had a dog

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when I was young, what else? [laughs]. [Martin] Tell us about, ah, was there, was there much arts in your life? when I was young, what else? [laughs]. [Martin] Tell us about, ah, was there, was there much arts in your life?

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[Jennifer] Um, not really, not really, not really. But I could always use my hands, always, like when I was young I used to, like little, [Jennifer] Um, not really, not really, not really. But I could always use my hands, always, like when I was young I used to, like little,

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I used to trace my feet with cardboard or rather put some cardboard down, trace around my feet and use sewing, I used to trace my feet with cardboard or rather put some cardboard down, trace around my feet and use sewing,

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um, cotton reel, empty cotton reels, and make myself high heels. um, cotton reel, empty cotton reels, and make myself high heels.

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I used to wear lipstick as soon as I was able, that mum would allow me to wear lipstick. Um, so I supposed I used to dress up in fancy I used to wear lipstick as soon as I was able, that mum would allow me to wear lipstick. Um, so I supposed I used to dress up in fancy

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dress and stuff. But, but art, was, um, well it really wasn't in the family. dress and stuff. But, but art, was, um, well it really wasn't in the family.

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Mum was a great cook, Dad was good with his hands and floral decorations, all that kind of stuff, but, Mum was a great cook, Dad was good with his hands and floral decorations, all that kind of stuff, but,

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but um, no, no art. [Martin] What, what trade was he-. [Jennifer] He was in the printing, he was a typesetter, in, um, but um, no, no art. [Martin] What, what trade was he-. [Jennifer] He was in the printing, he was a typesetter, in, um,

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well, you know, he could read print back to front. So he was, yeah I guess that's what it was called isn't it, typesetting. Um, in, you know, printing business, um. well, you know, he could read print back to front. So he was, yeah I guess that's what it was called isn't it, typesetting. Um, in, you know, printing business, um.

2:59

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[Martin] And you-. [Jennifer] Mum was a housewife [laughs], Mum grew up on the, in the Eastern suburbs, they got married [Martin] And you-. [Jennifer] Mum was a housewife [laughs], Mum grew up on the, in the Eastern suburbs, they got married

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and moved to the North Shore. [Martin] Was, was there an interest in fabric and moved to the North Shore. [Martin] Was, was there an interest in fabric

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and design? [Jennifer sighs] Did you have a costume box as a little girl? [Jennifer] You know what? I, I, I, I guess I always, dressed in, in old, you know, Mum's wedding dress and design? [Jennifer sighs] Did you have a costume box as a little girl? [Jennifer] You know what? I, I, I, I guess I always, dressed in, in old, you know, Mum's wedding dress

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and things like that, but I don't, I don't actually ever remember being... and things like that, but I don't, I don't actually ever remember being...

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I could always draw, I could always draw, so, and I could always draw, I could always draw, so, and

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Mum and Dad certainly encouraged me to do anything I wanted to do. So, because I could draw and drew from a young age, Mum and Dad certainly encouraged me to do anything I wanted to do. So, because I could draw and drew from a young age,

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I would, they would, you know, they'd just, I guess I went to art, art, little art classes after school, I would, they would, you know, they'd just, I guess I went to art, art, little art classes after school,

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those kinds of things 'cause that's what interested me. I wasn't into sport, I wasn't, um...I mean I was, I was pretty quiet, I was shy, I, I, um- those kinds of things 'cause that's what interested me. I wasn't into sport, I wasn't, um...I mean I was, I was pretty quiet, I was shy, I, I, um-

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[Martin] And did you do-. [Jennifer] I, I was a pretty easy kid I think, I would just, you know I wasn't [Martin] And did you do-. [Jennifer] I, I was a pretty easy kid I think, I would just, you know I wasn't

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unruly and I, they'd just kind of encourage me out of my shell more than anything, to do things. [Martin] And did PLC and Pymble, unruly and I, they'd just kind of encourage me out of my shell more than anything, to do things. [Martin] And did PLC and Pymble,

4:11

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um, as a teenager did you develop these interests, in the arts? [Jennifer] Um well, I did art and textile design as my major subjects at, um, as a teenager did you develop these interests, in the arts? [Jennifer] Um well, I did art and textile design as my major subjects at,

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in, Higher School Certificate. Um, but in those days I wouldn't say they had a particularly interesting art...department, in, Higher School Certificate. Um, but in those days I wouldn't say they had a particularly interesting art...department,

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it, however, that's what, you know that's what I excelled in and that and I did win the, the art school prizes and things, it, however, that's what, you know that's what I excelled in and that and I did win the, the art school prizes and things,

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but I guess other people were interested but I guess other people were interested

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in other things, I mean that was my favourite subject and, and textile and design, so I could, I could, in other things, I mean that was my favourite subject and, and textile and design, so I could, I could,

4:49

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I guess I could always sew, too, I, I, I'm pretty sure I was given a sewing machine when I was little I guess I could always sew, too, I, I, I'm pretty sure I was given a sewing machine when I was little

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that I used to make things with, that I used to make things with,

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so I could always sew. [Martin] So when you left school in '76, with your HSC, you went to the, Di-, Diploma of Applied Arts? [Jennifer] I, I went, I, so I could always sew. [Martin] So when you left school in '76, with your HSC, you went to the, Di-, Diploma of Applied Arts? [Jennifer] I, I went, I,

5:07

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yep, in Wagga Wagga, which was then called the Riverina yep, in Wagga Wagga, which was then called the Riverina

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Theatre Company. Um, I, I, I did printed textiles as, as my main subject, well I-. [Martin] At, at Charles Sturt University? [Jennifer] Yeah which is now Theatre Company. Um, I, I, I did printed textiles as, as my main subject, well I-. [Martin] At, at Charles Sturt University? [Jennifer] Yeah which is now

5:20

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Charles Sturt University. So, Charles Sturt University. So,

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when I went there I, I really, I mean. Back then, people didn't, teachers didn't really, career-wise, they didn't encourage you to do anything when I went there I, I really, I mean. Back then, people didn't, teachers didn't really, career-wise, they didn't encourage you to do anything

5:31

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other than, "oh you're good at art, let's, why don't you be an art teacher?" You know? That's that kind of intelligence other than, "oh you're good at art, let's, why don't you be an art teacher?" You know? That's that kind of intelligence

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they had. So, um, 'cause you didn't really think out of the, the, the box, so...I guess I went to art school with the intention of, what, they had. So, um, 'cause you didn't really think out of the, the, the box, so...I guess I went to art school with the intention of, what,

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what in the world do you do when you finish an art course. But, what in the world do you do when you finish an art course. But,

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I'd been there and I, and I really, I mean I was pretty independent, I wanted to, I'd been there and I, and I really, I mean I was pretty independent, I wanted to,

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um, I left, left Sydney because, or I chose that, that, that college because Mum and Dad would pay for me to live away from home, and I, um, I left, left Sydney because, or I chose that, that, that college because Mum and Dad would pay for me to live away from home, and I,

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I mean I like, I like the independence. Not that, my parents were great, they allowed me to do anything I mean I like, I like the independence. Not that, my parents were great, they allowed me to do anything

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but I didn't really want to go to NIDA or any of these courses that, I think there was a course up in Newcastle at the but I didn't really want to go to NIDA or any of these courses that, I think there was a course up in Newcastle at the

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time and I, I thought "I don't wanna stay at home, and live at home, and you know catch the train into NIDA and then come back time and I, I thought "I don't wanna stay at home, and live at home, and you know catch the train into NIDA and then come back

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and then be under Mum and Dad's thumb", I wanted to get out and have fun. and then be under Mum and Dad's thumb", I wanted to get out and have fun.

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So I went to Wagga, and I, and it was great, it was the best thing, I, I would recommend leaving home So I went to Wagga, and I, and it was great, it was the best thing, I, I would recommend leaving home

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and you just, you know, you can have a lot of fun, and I lived, um, in farmhouses and you just, you know, you can have a lot of fun, and I lived, um, in farmhouses

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and I met great people. Which is where I got into theatre because, when you're doing the course and I met great people. Which is where I got into theatre because, when you're doing the course

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and the um, well, that, that, that course was, well that college was the ag(ricultural) students and the art students and the um, well, that, that, that course was, well that college was the ag(ricultural) students and the art students

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and the teachers college and everybody altogether, and the teachers college and everybody altogether,

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and you had to do a subject out of your own course, so I did, I think I did, what'd I do, oh I uh? and you had to do a subject out of your own course, so I did, I think I did, what'd I do, oh I uh?

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and I think an ags course or you know an ags subject, and I think an ags course or you know an ags subject,

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but, what, what I loved about it was you had plenty of time off and you're in the country but, what, what I loved about it was you had plenty of time off and you're in the country

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and it was, you know, it was pretty easy and it was cheap living. and it was, you know, it was pretty easy and it was cheap living.

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And the, one of the girls I sharing a house with said, "I'm, I'm going down to audition to be in this show at the Riverina And the, one of the girls I sharing a house with said, "I'm, I'm going down to audition to be in this show at the Riverina

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Trucking Companym" which is now the Riverina Theatre Company, but I don't even know if that exists really, not for anymore, Trucking Companym" which is now the Riverina Theatre Company, but I don't even know if that exists really, not for anymore,

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but in those days that was a regional theatre company but in those days that was a regional theatre company

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that was funded by the government. So there were a lot of people that had come, directors that'd come through that was funded by the government. So there were a lot of people that had come, directors that'd come through

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NIDA and, and they were, they went to different regional theatre companies and, you know, started their career NIDA and, and they were, they went to different regional theatre companies and, you know, started their career

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and in tho- and down there, um, and in tho- and down there, um,

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there was a, a, well the Riverina Trucking Company was doing some great shows. And this girl Chris, Christine, said to me, there was a, a, well the Riverina Trucking Company was doing some great shows. And this girl Chris, Christine, said to me,

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"I'm going to audition, why don't you come?" Ah, and she got, she got the part of Jesus Christ Superstair, you know, ah, Jesus Christ Superstar and "I'm going to audition, why don't you come?" Ah, and she got, she got the part of Jesus Christ Superstair, you know, ah, Jesus Christ Superstar and

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she was Mary Magdalene. And she said, "Why don't you come down she was Mary Magdalene. And she said, "Why don't you come down

8:07

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and help us sew, because you know, we've got nobody to, to make our costumes." And I thought and help us sew, because you know, we've got nobody to, to make our costumes." And I thought

8:12

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"Oh well, why not?" And that's how I got into theatre. So I went to, so I went there and I met all of those people "Oh well, why not?" And that's how I got into theatre. So I went to, so I went there and I met all of those people

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and then, you know, that was, that was a three-year Art course so I guess after three years of hanging around the theatre and then, you know, that was, that was a three-year Art course so I guess after three years of hanging around the theatre

8:27

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I'd kind of, you know, I'd, it'd, it'd got me and I'd kind of, you know, I'd, it'd, it'd got me and

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I think that's theatre is one of those things you, once you become involved in working in it, you either, I think that's theatre is one of those things you, once you become involved in working in it, you either,

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it's got you and you, that's all you want to do, or, you, you just, you know, you're, you're not interested. it's got you and you, that's all you want to do, or, you, you just, you know, you're, you're not interested.

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But, so I was, that's what happened to me. [Martin] And that Riverina Theatre Company was at that time one of si-, But, so I was, that's what happened to me. [Martin] And that Riverina Theatre Company was at that time one of si-,

8:51

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five regional theatre companies that existed, ah, supported in regional New South Wales which is quite a different kind of... [Jennifer] By I think five regional theatre companies that existed, ah, supported in regional New South Wales which is quite a different kind of... [Jennifer] By I think

8:59

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the Australia Council, I, I'm pretty sure. [Martin] Yes, yeah. Um, and so, you um, you, you worked as a wardrobe mistress then at Riverina? the Australia Council, I, I'm pretty sure. [Martin] Yes, yeah. Um, and so, you um, you, you worked as a wardrobe mistress then at Riverina?

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[Jennifer] I made the costumes, I, I, well I guess, I guess we made, I don't even know whether, I don't, [Jennifer] I made the costumes, I, I, well I guess, I guess we made, I don't even know whether, I don't,

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I don't actually recall there being costume designers, so I think we all just kind of got in and let's you know, I don't actually recall there being costume designers, so I think we all just kind of got in and let's you know,

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let's try this together and let's, let's see what, but you know, they didn't have any money, so it was really a, a beg, borrowing, stealing let's try this together and let's, let's see what, but you know, they didn't have any money, so it was really a, a beg, borrowing, stealing

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and trying to figure out what you could put people in. [Martin] Why did you, what, what more did you think you needed to learn that and trying to figure out what you could put people in. [Martin] Why did you, what, what more did you think you needed to learn that

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motivated you to do a Certificate in Technical Theatre then, at the Centre for Performing Arts in Adelaide? motivated you to do a Certificate in Technical Theatre then, at the Centre for Performing Arts in Adelaide?

9:44

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[Jennifer] Well, I guess once you then, then you, you gotta figure out well how do you get into this industry [Jennifer] Well, I guess once you then, then you, you gotta figure out well how do you get into this industry

9:50

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So you can actually So you can actually

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earn some money. So I finished my art, Diploma in Art which was, my major was printed textiles so I was pretty good at fabrics and earn some money. So I finished my art, Diploma in Art which was, my major was printed textiles so I was pretty good at fabrics and

10:02

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understanding in print no and it was very analogue, it was all that silk-screening and, and on fabrics understanding in print no and it was very analogue, it was all that silk-screening and, and on fabrics

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and, and dyeing. [Martin] They called it Scenic Art. [Jennifer] No that was, I did Scenic Art later on and, and dyeing. [Martin] They called it Scenic Art. [Jennifer] No that was, I did Scenic Art later on

10:15

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when I went to the technical theatre course. So, um, I guess one afternoon I think I was sitting in Wagga and we were sitting in when I went to the technical theatre course. So, um, I guess one afternoon I think I was sitting in Wagga and we were sitting in

10:24

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the sun and we're all thinking oh well the sun and we're all thinking oh well

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you know, what are we going to do now. We've all finished art school. What are we going to do [laughs]. And I saw this ad for the Centre for the Performing Arts you know, what are we going to do now. We've all finished art school. What are we going to do [laughs]. And I saw this ad for the Centre for the Performing Arts

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the first year that they were starting it in Adelaide the first year that they were starting it in Adelaide

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and I thought well Adelaide's a good place to go because then I'm gonna have to go home (laughs) and live with Mum and I thought well Adelaide's a good place to go because then I'm gonna have to go home (laughs) and live with Mum

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and Dad while I try and figure out what I'm going to do all over again. and Dad while I try and figure out what I'm going to do all over again.

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And, and I did apply for, um, NIDA. I didn't get into NIDA. I And, and I did apply for, um, NIDA. I didn't get into NIDA. I

10:54

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and I applied for, um, the Centre for the Performing Arts and they, and they said, you know, they, I got a and I applied for, um, the Centre for the Performing Arts and they, and they said, you know, they, I got a

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I got a spot, so I went there and that was its first year and there were only 6 of us in that, that year. Um, I got a spot, so I went there and that was its first year and there were only 6 of us in that, that year. Um,

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and I think four of us are still working in the Arts that I know you know people have done very well, and I think four of us are still working in the Arts that I know you know people have done very well,

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would have gone through the, through the, the, um... [Martin] Do you remember their names? [Jennifer] Yeah. There was Chris Yates, he now works for the Australian would have gone through the, through the, the, um... [Martin] Do you remember their names? [Jennifer] Yeah. There was Chris Yates, he now works for the Australian

11:25

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Ballet. Ballet.

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He was the technical director at the Australian Opera for years. Um, Rosie Boylan who's a milliner, whose married to Stephen Kurtis. He was the technical director at the Australian Opera for years. Um, Rosie Boylan who's a milliner, whose married to Stephen Kurtis.

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Um, so, there's Rosie, there's Um, so, there's Rosie, there's

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and there was, ah, Amanda Stead who works in lighting, no sound, down in Melbourne or somewhere down there. Um, and there was, ah, Amanda Stead who works in lighting, no sound, down in Melbourne or somewhere down there. Um,

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and does musicals mainly. Um, R.M, and does musicals mainly. Um, R.M,

11:52

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um, R2 who's Richard Parolski who's worked for Cameron Mackintosh. um, R2 who's Richard Parolski who's worked for Cameron Mackintosh.

11:57

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And he, you know, he's, he's in lighting. So he's, so there's a few of us around still. I think that's, that's where it finishes. Um, anyway, so I, And he, you know, he's, he's in lighting. So he's, so there's a few of us around still. I think that's, that's where it finishes. Um, anyway, so I,

12:07

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I went to Adelaide and it just happened, well as opposed to NIDA that had, ah, drama I went to Adelaide and it just happened, well as opposed to NIDA that had, ah, drama

12:16

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and acting, this particular course had dance, it was attached to dance. Not that I had any intention on being a dance designer at all. and acting, this particular course had dance, it was attached to dance. Not that I had any intention on being a dance designer at all.

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I had no comprehension of dance. I'd never danced in my life. I'd never been to ballet school. I had no comprehension of dance. I'd never danced in my life. I'd never been to ballet school.

12:30

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So um, so it just happened that they did dance. And we would costume dancers during that two year course. So um, so it just happened that they did dance. And we would costume dancers during that two year course.

12:39

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However it was a great time to be in Adelaide because it was just post Don Dunstan era, there was a lot of money there. However it was a great time to be in Adelaide because it was just post Don Dunstan era, there was a lot of money there.

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The Adelaide Festival was the best festival in Australia for the Arts. Um, The Adelaide Festival was the best festival in Australia for the Arts. Um,

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Phil was there. Jim Sharman was there, they're all there. Lighthouse, at that time, Geoffrey Rush, um, um, Mel Gibson, Judy Davis, they were all Phil was there. Jim Sharman was there, they're all there. Lighthouse, at that time, Geoffrey Rush, um, um, Mel Gibson, Judy Davis, they were all

13:04

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there. there.

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And they were all just starting out. Heather Bishop - ah, Heather Mitchell - Robert Menzies. It was a really exciting time to And they were all just starting out. Heather Bishop - ah, Heather Mitchell - Robert Menzies. It was a really exciting time to

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be in, be in,

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just starting to meet people and, and do work experience just starting to meet people and, and do work experience

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and I did work experience at the State Theatre Company in Adelaide. and I did work experience at the State Theatre Company in Adelaide.

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I did, when all those people were resident at coming straight out of NIDA themselves and starting their careers, I did, when all those people were resident at coming straight out of NIDA themselves and starting their careers,

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I worked, I did work experience at ADT, um, Australian Dance Theatre. And that was when Jonathan I worked, I did work experience at ADT, um, Australian Dance Theatre. And that was when Jonathan

13:40

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Taylor was running it. So it was really, and that company was pretty, um, well received Taylor was running it. So it was really, and that company was pretty, um, well received

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and doing some, ah, I think they did, um, and doing some, ah, I think they did, um,

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oh, what's it called - something stars... [Martin] Wild Stars? [Jennifer] Wild stars. Which was their kind of ground-, groundbreaking show. Um, oh, what's it called - something stars... [Martin] Wild Stars? [Jennifer] Wild stars. Which was their kind of ground-, groundbreaking show. Um,

14:02

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and then I just started working and basically I stayed with ADT for that whole period, helping them out in costume and then I just started working and basically I stayed with ADT for that whole period, helping them out in costume

14:09

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not being paid but just I mean, I just liked being part of putting on a show. not being paid but just I mean, I just liked being part of putting on a show.

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So when I finished in Adelaide, another two years down the So when I finished in Adelaide, another two years down the

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and I actually majored in scenic at at that point because I could draw and I actually majored in scenic at at that point because I could draw

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and that's what interested me there. So I actually didn't major in costume, and that's what interested me there. So I actually didn't major in costume,

14:28

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I majored in scenic art. So, but at the end of that course, I majored in scenic art. So, but at the end of that course,

14:31

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I thought well now what I do? [laughs] And so I wrote to everybody. All the theatre companies. And I came back to Sydney and I, I thought well now what I do? [laughs] And so I wrote to everybody. All the theatre companies. And I came back to Sydney and I,

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and I got a letter back from Sydney or a phone call from Sydney Dance Company saying and I got a letter back from Sydney or a phone call from Sydney Dance Company saying

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we're looking for an assistant, somebody to a, to come in and sew with their costume supervisor we're looking for an assistant, somebody to a, to come in and sew with their costume supervisor

14:59

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and well, I'd, you know, I'd arrived back in Sydney, I was living at home with and well, I'd, you know, I'd arrived back in Sydney, I was living at home with

15:05

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Mum and Dad [laughs]. And so of course I, I got a job, I went in there and I, I think John Raymond who, who is one of Australia's best lighting designers Mum and Dad [laughs]. And so of course I, I got a job, I went in there and I, I think John Raymond who, who is one of Australia's best lighting designers

15:16

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and was then the production manager of the Sydney dance Company. He gave me my first job and that was and Graeme Murphy, you know. and was then the production manager of the Sydney dance Company. He gave me my first job and that was and Graeme Murphy, you know.

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And that was my first job out of college. [Martin] It's a fantastic start And that was my first job out of college. [Martin] It's a fantastic start

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and the die was cast I suppose of you taking an interest in the, in costume and costume for dance. [Jennifer] Mm. and the die was cast I suppose of you taking an interest in the, in costume and costume for dance. [Jennifer] Mm.

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And it was, had a theatre company given, given me a call or, or even, you know, had I, that been my job And it was, had a theatre company given, given me a call or, or even, you know, had I, that been my job

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I, I just, things might have turned out very differently. But that was my first job and so therefore, and, and Ivy who I, I just, things might have turned out very differently. But that was my first job and so therefore, and, and Ivy who

15:48

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he was the costume supervisor, he was the costume supervisor,

15:50

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this is in the days when Sydney Dance Company were in Woolloomooloo, in Bourke Street, Woolloomooloo. I think it was Bourke, yeah, it was. this is in the days when Sydney Dance Company were in Woolloomooloo, in Bourke Street, Woolloomooloo. I think it was Bourke, yeah, it was.

15:57

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And they were in a squat And they were in a squat

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and the New South Wales government weren't going to get rid of them out of the squat until they found a place for them. and the New South Wales government weren't going to get rid of them out of the squat until they found a place for them.

16:05

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So Sydney Dance Company, I mean it was 1980 or '81 So Sydney Dance Company, I mean it was 1980 or '81

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I think, and Graeme had done, had done Poppy, he'd done Daphnis and Chloe I think, and Graeme had done, had done Poppy, he'd done Daphnis and Chloe

16:16

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and he'd done a few of his hits, the Sydney Dance Company's major works that put Sydney Dance Company on the map. So they, it was like and he'd done a few of his hits, the Sydney Dance Company's major works that put Sydney Dance Company on the map. So they, it was like

16:28

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just the beginning of Sydney Dance Company. And they had nothing, just the beginning of Sydney Dance Company. And they had nothing,

16:32

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they were in this old building that was falling down. All the dancers used to have to share one shower at the end of class that, they were in this old building that was falling down. All the dancers used to have to share one shower at the end of class that,

16:40

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you know, everybody altogether, the same toilets and it was a complete dive. you know, everybody altogether, the same toilets and it was a complete dive.

16:45

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We had, it was, um, down in Woolloomooloo where all the Housing Commission kids all used to break into We had, it was, um, down in Woolloomooloo where all the Housing Commission kids all used to break into

16:53

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your cars every day and, and break into the building and rob things and like it was pretty wild. your cars every day and, and break into the building and rob things and like it was pretty wild.

17:01

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And, so anyway so I, I started working there And, so anyway so I, I started working there

17:05

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and then Ivy who was the old costume supervisor - which I guess is what I am now [laughter] - um, she, I worked and worked alongside her and then Ivy who was the old costume supervisor - which I guess is what I am now [laughter] - um, she, I worked and worked alongside her

17:18

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and developed patterns and 'cause it was all about body stockings and like I had no idea about stretch fabric or anything, so I, I and developed patterns and 'cause it was all about body stockings and like I had no idea about stretch fabric or anything, so I, I

17:28

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kind of learnt as I went along. kind of learnt as I went along.

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And then Ivy left, it just, she left. Um... [Martin] Ivy? [Jennifer] Johnson her name was. I don't think Ivy's still around any more. But so Ivy left And then Ivy left, it just, she left. Um... [Martin] Ivy? [Jennifer] Johnson her name was. I don't think Ivy's still around any more. But so Ivy left

17:41

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and Graeme just, I was kind of there and I just kind of took over. [Martin] So was Deadly Sins in 1984, was that one of and Graeme just, I was kind of there and I just kind of took over. [Martin] So was Deadly Sins in 1984, was that one of

17:50

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was that surely was one of your first jobs as a costume designer? [Jennifer] Um, actually I didn't, I, was that surely was one of your first jobs as a costume designer? [Jennifer] Um, actually I didn't, I,

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oh, was it Deadly Sins, or was it..? [Martin] Or later, the year later - Sirens? [Jennifer] Sirens. Sirens was my first. [Martin] And that was staged at Kinselas, ah, oh, was it Deadly Sins, or was it..? [Martin] Or later, the year later - Sirens? [Jennifer] Sirens. Sirens was my first. [Martin] And that was staged at Kinselas, ah,

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which was a very happening nightclub and art scene. [Jennifer] That's right, because it used to be Kinsella's funeral parlour. which was a very happening nightclub and art scene. [Jennifer] That's right, because it used to be Kinsella's funeral parlour.

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[Martin] That's right in Oxford Street, Sydney. [Jennifer] In Oxford Street. And, and Sydney Theatre Company, that, they did the first show in there. They turned, because it was bought [Martin] That's right in Oxford Street, Sydney. [Jennifer] In Oxford Street. And, and Sydney Theatre Company, that, they did the first show in there. They turned, because it was bought

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and then I think Leon Fink developed that. and then I think Leon Fink developed that.

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And upstairs they they put a theatre in as a kind of dinner show, dinner show and a theatre. And Sydney Theatre Company, well And upstairs they they put a theatre in as a kind of dinner show, dinner show and a theatre. And Sydney Theatre Company, well

18:34

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I'll go back a little bit because Sydney Dance Company were, they were kind of still floundering like money wise and I'll go back a little bit because Sydney Dance Company were, they were kind of still floundering like money wise and

18:41

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everything and we actually had to take time off from Sydney Dance Company because they didn't have the money, so we all everything and we actually had to take time off from Sydney Dance Company because they didn't have the money, so we all

18:48

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had to go and get jobs elsewhere. had to go and get jobs elsewhere.

18:50

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And I did work on The Stripper as an assistant costume maker, um, which was the first show Sydney Theatre And I did work on The Stripper as an assistant costume maker, um, which was the first show Sydney Theatre

18:58

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Company put in at Kinsela's and then Sydney Dance Company put the next show in. And by that time they had enough funding I guess to put Company put in at Kinsela's and then Sydney Dance Company put the next show in. And by that time they had enough funding I guess to put

19:05

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something on. And I guess it did quite well and Sydney something on. And I guess it did quite well and Sydney

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Dance Company could continue then and create more works, um... [Martin] And Sirens was a dance piece Dance Company could continue then and create more works, um... [Martin] And Sirens was a dance piece

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and was about, around the Norman Lindsay story, was it not? [Jennifer] No that was Glimpses. Um, Sirens was a collective work of I think, and was about, around the Norman Lindsay story, was it not? [Jennifer] No that was Glimpses. Um, Sirens was a collective work of I think,

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I think there were about ten sections and they were all based on women. And there was like the Little Match Girl and there was, I think there were about ten sections and they were all based on women. And there was like the Little Match Girl and there was,

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it was a fun, really good fun entertainment. it was a fun, really good fun entertainment.

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And Madonna - had everybody in it. So every, every section had, Emy, ah, Amy Su-, oh, Sumac, was that her name? And Madonna - had everybody in it. So every, every section had, Emy, ah, Amy Su-, oh, Sumac, was that her name?

19:49

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So, so Graeme basically used some of the girls and built characters of famous, famous characters and, and all boys were So, so Graeme basically used some of the girls and built characters of famous, famous characters and, and all boys were

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really just dancing, dancing, dancing that, and it was hilarious. [Martin] So as we will reveal and as you had to costume, Murphy was a great really just dancing, dancing, dancing that, and it was hilarious. [Martin] So as we will reveal and as you had to costume, Murphy was a great

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storyteller on stage and interested in character in dance which must have... storyteller on stage and interested in character in dance which must have...

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[Jennifer] And most of his dancers were, well they were real characters themselves. Like he, he never picked all the same long legged [Jennifer] And most of his dancers were, well they were real characters themselves. Like he, he never picked all the same long legged

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blondes or blondes or

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like they were, they absolutely had their own characters, like Kim Walker and, and Francis like they were, they absolutely had their own characters, like Kim Walker and, and Francis

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Philibert and they were so different. [Martin] Um, you had a long Sydney Dance Company career, Philibert and they were so different. [Martin] Um, you had a long Sydney Dance Company career,

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we're just really starting with it, between '82 and we're just really starting with it, between '82 and

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'88 you were a costume supervisor essentially weren't you? [Jennifer] I, I, well I made every costume. While I was at Sydney Dance '88 you were a costume supervisor essentially weren't you? [Jennifer] I, I, well I made every costume. While I was at Sydney Dance

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Company I made every single costume that they did. But most of it, it became obvious that for Graeme Company I made every single costume that they did. But most of it, it became obvious that for Graeme

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if he's, if I'm sitting there in the, in, down in the wardrobe department if he's, if I'm sitting there in the, in, down in the wardrobe department

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and he runs out and he says, 'Can you just whip up something, blah blah blah, and I'll use that.' and he runs out and he says, 'Can you just whip up something, blah blah blah, and I'll use that.'

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And that's where it came from, because I was on the, I was there in the building And that's where it came from, because I was on the, I was there in the building

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and he could see that I could, ah, give him what he wanted and so the first couple of shows I guess he just and he could see that I could, ah, give him what he wanted and so the first couple of shows I guess he just

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were little shows, but then they became bigger and bigger. were little shows, but then they became bigger and bigger.

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And also I made all the costumes for people like Kristian Fredrickson And also I made all the costumes for people like Kristian Fredrickson

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and, um, well there weren't that many. Anthony Jones who, but they're not, it was mainly Kristian, so Kristian and myself got all the jobs. and, um, well there weren't that many. Anthony Jones who, but they're not, it was mainly Kristian, so Kristian and myself got all the jobs.

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And Kristian did the bigger, the bigger shows and the elaborate ones, And Kristian did the bigger, the bigger shows and the elaborate ones,

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but I still made them with him. [Martin] You were behind the scenes of when, well the Australian Opera but I still made them with him. [Martin] You were behind the scenes of when, well the Australian Opera

21:48

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when he was making costumes, you were doing the making of the costumes. [Jennifer] I was, at, at Sydney Dance company I was 'cause... [Martin] Sydney Dance Company. when he was making costumes, you were doing the making of the costumes. [Jennifer] I was, at, at Sydney Dance company I was 'cause... [Martin] Sydney Dance Company.

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[Jennifer] At Sydney Dance Company. Because Kristian did a lot for Sydney Dance Company, with Daphnis and Chloe [Jennifer] At Sydney Dance Company. Because Kristian did a lot for Sydney Dance Company, with Daphnis and Chloe

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and also re-creating it when they, they had a re-mount of a show that they'd take on tour, so I was there and also re-creating it when they, they had a re-mount of a show that they'd take on tour, so I was there

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basically. I was washing, ironing, picking up the clothes off the ground and working the shows, dressing and making. basically. I was washing, ironing, picking up the clothes off the ground and working the shows, dressing and making.

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And then as time went on Graeme just kept on asking me, would And then as time went on Graeme just kept on asking me, would

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because I was much more, I'm a very different designer to Kristian. Kristian did, ah, very elaborate, full-on costumes. [Martin] Famously because I was much more, I'm a very different designer to Kristian. Kristian did, ah, very elaborate, full-on costumes. [Martin] Famously

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beautiful. [Jennifer] Famous-, good - beautiful. And I certainly learnt an amazing amount of how he thought and what you know his headdresses beautiful. [Jennifer] Famous-, good - beautiful. And I certainly learnt an amazing amount of how he thought and what you know his headdresses

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and how, how he worked a design. But, my, I, and how, how he worked a design. But, my, I,

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I guess I'm just that much younger and my kind of discipline was more fashion, fashion I guess I'm just that much younger and my kind of discipline was more fashion, fashion

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and more contemporary in the look of a show than a character show. So I, and more contemporary in the look of a show than a character show. So I,

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it was always the abstract contemporary shows that Graeme asked me to do - it was always the abstract contemporary shows that Graeme asked me to do -

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always. [Martin] You mention Kristian Frederikson. Were there other designers at that time as you were evolving that you thought were pretty hot? [Jennifer] Well always. [Martin] You mention Kristian Frederikson. Were there other designers at that time as you were evolving that you thought were pretty hot? [Jennifer] Well

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Anthony Jones. He did, he did, but he's now, he, he died about twenty years ago. He was a lovely, Anthony Jones. He did, he did, but he's now, he, he died about twenty years ago. He was a lovely,

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lovely man. Um, ah, what's his name? Oh, I'm trying to think, Peter Tully, who was Gay Mardi Gras. [Martin] Oh yes. [Jennifer] He, like, in that, like, lovely man. Um, ah, what's his name? Oh, I'm trying to think, Peter Tully, who was Gay Mardi Gras. [Martin] Oh yes. [Jennifer] He, like, in that, like,

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and of course he's deceased too. But and of course he's deceased too. But

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they were really, Graeme used to, all the people he used as collaborators and musicians and Carl Vine and, you know, Richard Tognetti, they were really, Graeme used to, all the people he used as collaborators and musicians and Carl Vine and, you know, Richard Tognetti,

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you name it, Graeme has probably given them their first jobs. [Martin] We'll move through the many people he collaborated you name it, Graeme has probably given them their first jobs. [Martin] We'll move through the many people he collaborated

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with which is interesting that they rub off as an influence with which is interesting that they rub off as an influence

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even if they're musicians, on you who make the costumes. You went in 1984 to La Scala Opera in Milan on a even if they're musicians, on you who make the costumes. You went in 1984 to La Scala Opera in Milan on a

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Australia Council Grant. What did that teach you? [Jennifer] Well that, that was from the fact that I was a scenic artist and I thought oh well Australia Council Grant. What did that teach you? [Jennifer] Well that, that was from the fact that I was a scenic artist and I thought oh well

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there's a bit of a, a gap at Sydney Dance Company at the moment, there's a bit of a, a gap at Sydney Dance Company at the moment,

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I might apply for a, a grant to go to La Scala. And I, and I actually, I applied. I sent off all of this paperwork I might apply for a, a grant to go to La Scala. And I, and I actually, I applied. I sent off all of this paperwork

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and they write back and they said I could come. and they write back and they said I could come.

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And I like, in my dreams I didn't think that it would actually happen. So And I like, in my dreams I didn't think that it would actually happen. So

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and I love Italy. I've been, I've been to Italy, I don't know maybe 30 or 40 times and over the years and I love Italy. I've been, I've been to Italy, I don't know maybe 30 or 40 times and over the years

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but I adore Italy. And I'd been there with Mum and Dad as a, in, when I was 17 and I'd always thought but I adore Italy. And I'd been there with Mum and Dad as a, in, when I was 17 and I'd always thought

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oh I'd love to go back there. And I guess had I applied to, for a grant to go somewhere like that as a costume person, oh I'd love to go back there. And I guess had I applied to, for a grant to go somewhere like that as a costume person,

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there would have been probably 20 or 30 other people applying for that. But nobody was training, wanted to train up as a scenic artist, so there would have been probably 20 or 30 other people applying for that. But nobody was training, wanted to train up as a scenic artist, so

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it was a godsend and I went. So I, I was at, um, La Scala probably about six months. Um, it was a godsend and I went. So I, I was at, um, La Scala probably about six months. Um,

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I was certainly the only female in the whole, in, in the scenographia department. I, La Scala's, Milan, like I was certainly the only female in the whole, in, in the scenographia department. I, La Scala's, Milan, like

25:24

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it's amazing. The workshops are outside the, the city centre. It was absolutely freezing it's amazing. The workshops are outside the, the city centre. It was absolutely freezing

25:29

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when I was there. I'd go there, um, every morning it was so cold. And we'd get there when I was there. I'd go there, um, every morning it was so cold. And we'd get there

25:35

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and they, they don't, they have a kind of hierarchy of, of the way that they teach and they, they don't, they have a kind of hierarchy of, of the way that they teach

25:42

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and there's probably 20 people that they take on and they're in different stages of their development. and there's probably 20 people that they take on and they're in different stages of their development.

25:49

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And so the fir-, the, And so the fir-, the,

25:50

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the youngest kind of, the ones that haven't done much, they, they really sit there for a couple of years the youngest kind of, the ones that haven't done much, they, they really sit there for a couple of years

25:57

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and don't touch anything, they just sit and watch and I was with them really. So I sat and watched and they were nearly all and don't touch anything, they just sit and watch and I was with them really. So I sat and watched and they were nearly all

26:05

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well they were, they were all men. Everybody that worked in that whole department and the set builders well they were, they were all men. Everybody that worked in that whole department and the set builders

26:10

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and they, so I was a I think a 23, 24-year-old female from Australia that couldn't speak Italian. I, we, and they, so I was a I think a 23, 24-year-old female from Australia that couldn't speak Italian. I, we,

26:18

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it was one of the most amazing experiences because it was one of the most amazing experiences because

26:23

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when you went to lunch and the lunch was provided and you'd go in to the big dining room when you went to lunch and the lunch was provided and you'd go in to the big dining room

26:27

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and they had tables that had, had shelves underneath and the only women in the place were the, the cooks and they had tables that had, had shelves underneath and the only women in the place were the, the cooks

26:35

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and they'd come and put this enormous big bowl of pasta in, in the middle and they everyone would be served. and they'd come and put this enormous big bowl of pasta in, in the middle and they everyone would be served.

26:42

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We'd all serve each other and then I, and they all brought in their wine and they all, these were the set builders We'd all serve each other and then I, and they all brought in their wine and they all, these were the set builders

26:50

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and the, the scenic artists. They'd all bring in wine and they thought it was the biggest joke that there I was and the, the scenic artists. They'd all bring in wine and they thought it was the biggest joke that there I was

26:56

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this female in this whole place. So I would end up at lunchtime with about 20 glasses of wine sitting around me this female in this whole place. So I would end up at lunchtime with about 20 glasses of wine sitting around me

27:04

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of them trying to get me drunk, just to make, you know, just 'cause it would be funny. of them trying to get me drunk, just to make, you know, just 'cause it would be funny.

27:09

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Um, so, and, and I didn't mind wine either, but, um, and Italian food. And so after, after you had lunch there Um, so, and, and I didn't mind wine either, but, um, and Italian food. And so after, after you had lunch there

27:18

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then you'd go off and, and you'd go to the little cafe and you'd have the little, you know, espresso then you'd go off and, and you'd go to the little cafe and you'd have the little, you know, espresso

27:23

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and the, the, the liqueurs, they'd always have a little liqueur after lunch. And by, and I, and the, the, the liqueurs, they'd always have a little liqueur after lunch. And by, and I,

27:28

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so then I'd spend the rest of the afternoon just sitting there kind of watching. But, you know, like so then I'd spend the rest of the afternoon just sitting there kind of watching. But, you know, like

27:33

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really what I needed was a sleep. But [laughs] and I did that for about 6 months and it was so, such a fabulous experience really what I needed was a sleep. But [laughs] and I did that for about 6 months and it was so, such a fabulous experience

27:39

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and I still am in contact with one of those guys that, the one person that's spoke English and he, and I still am in contact with one of those guys that, the one person that's spoke English and he,

27:47

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he was a French, a Frenchman that has since gone on to be quite a successful painter in Europe. he was a French, a Frenchman that has since gone on to be quite a successful painter in Europe.

27:53

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[Martin] And if not about costuming, did you learn anything about Scenic Art? [Jennifer] Um, well, ah, yeah, I mean, certainly I, I was there for months watching it, so I, um, what, um, [Martin] And if not about costuming, did you learn anything about Scenic Art? [Jennifer] Um, well, ah, yeah, I mean, certainly I, I was there for months watching it, so I, um, what, um,

28:10

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well just everything, everything about it. How they drew up, well just everything, everything about it. How they drew up,

28:14

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drew up the, I mean the show I worked on was, was a Zeffirelli show. But I'm just a, drew up the, I mean the show I worked on was, was a Zeffirelli show. But I'm just a,

28:20

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but I'm, I'm not saying I worked on it. I sat there and watched it being made and being painted. And, and I was in the same area, well this, but I'm, I'm not saying I worked on it. I sat there and watched it being made and being painted. And, and I was in the same area, well this,

28:29

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this department was where the costume, um, all the, all the storage was, so I could go in there and, this department was where the costume, um, all the, all the storage was, so I could go in there and,

28:38

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and the, the women would show me costumes and the, the women would show me costumes

28:41

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and they'd pull out the big rollers with all the costumes from, you know, Maria Callas and like amazing. and they'd pull out the big rollers with all the costumes from, you know, Maria Callas and like amazing.

28:47

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But I was a little 23, 24-year-old But I was a little 23, 24-year-old

28:50

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that was just kind of, I was a bit, well I was very intimidated really 'cause I was out of my own comfort zone and that was just kind of, I was a bit, well I was very intimidated really 'cause I was out of my own comfort zone and

28:58

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I didn't speak Italian and I didn't speak Italian and

29:00

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but it was an amazing experience. [Martin] Shining 1986. Was that a significant show for you? You designed it? [Jennifer] I think but it was an amazing experience. [Martin] Shining 1986. Was that a significant show for you? You designed it? [Jennifer] I think

29:10

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that would have been my biggest show that Graeme gave me to design. And that show, ah, it, ah, well I, that would have been my biggest show that Graeme gave me to design. And that show, ah, it, ah, well I,

29:22

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it was a big show and toured everywhere. Graeme took that to New York to, we did tour, toured it all it was a big show and toured everywhere. Graeme took that to New York to, we did tour, toured it all

29:27

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over Italy, I mean all over everywhere, everywhere. And it went to La-, um, Covent Garden with the Australian Ballet over Italy, I mean all over everywhere, everywhere. And it went to La-, um, Covent Garden with the Australian Ballet

29:34

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when they did a show, a, a, co-Graeme presentation in 1988. when they did a show, a, a, co-Graeme presentation in 1988.

29:40

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So that was a work that existed in the repertoire of Sydney Dance Company for many years and was very well applauded So that was a work that existed in the repertoire of Sydney Dance Company for many years and was very well applauded

29:48

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and I guess, and I guess that, that made and I guess, and I guess that, that made

29:53

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well I guess it did turn the corner for me in being a designer as opposed to being a costume assistant well I guess it did turn the corner for me in being a designer as opposed to being a costume assistant

30:03

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that got a few shows to design. [Martin] What did you, um, can you remember your designs that got a few shows to design. [Martin] What did you, um, can you remember your designs

30:07

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it was a, it's a very, um, Shining is very lyrical sort of hymn to hedonism isn't it against very luscious symphonic music. [Jennifer] It was, ah, yes it was a, it's a very, um, Shining is very lyrical sort of hymn to hedonism isn't it against very luscious symphonic music. [Jennifer] It was, ah, yes

30:16

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it was Szymanowski. [Martin] By Karol Szymanowski. [Jennifer] Um, and it was a black set, it had black, very black it was Szymanowski. [Martin] By Karol Szymanowski. [Jennifer] Um, and it was a black set, it had black, very black

30:22

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there was a, a curved set piece that like a there was a, a curved set piece that like a

30:27

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croissant, that curved, that the dancers ran on and up and back croissant, that curved, that the dancers ran on and up and back

30:32

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and forward so it was kind of like a, a sand dune really. and forward so it was kind of like a, a sand dune really.

30:36

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But it was all, um, yeah, it was a very fluid piece. And I, the, the costumes it was But it was all, um, yeah, it was a very fluid piece. And I, the, the costumes it was

30:42

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was it, ah two acts - three - there were three acts. Act one was all in, um, black trousers and silk shirts, was it, ah two acts - three - there were three acts. Act one was all in, um, black trousers and silk shirts,

30:54

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the women were all in silk, ah, well more like black lingerie that was very fitted the women were all in silk, ah, well more like black lingerie that was very fitted

31:02

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and then lace skirts, black lace skirts. And I'd, there were lot of little Swarovski and then lace skirts, black lace skirts. And I'd, there were lot of little Swarovski

31:08

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diamantes stuck on it, over, through, all over the skirts and the top. Um, and actually looking back diamantes stuck on it, over, through, all over the skirts and the top. Um, and actually looking back

31:17

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that was a pretty contemporary look for, for that period. The Act 2 was a duo with Alfred Williams or Alfred Taahi that was a pretty contemporary look for, for that period. The Act 2 was a duo with Alfred Williams or Alfred Taahi

31:26

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he and Andrea Toy, who was the, her first job was Sydney Dance Company from the Australian Ballet. Her beautiful he and Andrea Toy, who was the, her first job was Sydney Dance Company from the Australian Ballet. Her beautiful

31:36

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ah, duo, a, a love, a love duo. Um, and the second act was, oh, the third act was all men in dinner suits and ah, duo, a, a love, a love duo. Um, and the second act was, oh, the third act was all men in dinner suits and

31:46

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and women in long black dresses and they were all individual. And certainly when I design things and women in long black dresses and they were all individual. And certainly when I design things

31:54

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and I see fabrics I like, I and I see fabrics I like, I

31:58

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I love going to the shops to find fabrics, even though many designers do not go and look, source their own fabrics, I love going to the shops to find fabrics, even though many designers do not go and look, source their own fabrics,

32:04

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because I like to see a piece of fabric and when I see because I like to see a piece of fabric and when I see

32:08

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something that gives me an idea for what I can do with that fabric. Whereas many designers do a drawing something that gives me an idea for what I can do with that fabric. Whereas many designers do a drawing

32:15

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and then you go out hunting and trying to find the fabric. Whereas I kind of do the reverse. So... [Martin] I can understand that and then you go out hunting and trying to find the fabric. Whereas I kind of do the reverse. So... [Martin] I can understand that

32:23

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perhaps if you're looking for fabrics and later in your Bangarra perhaps if you're looking for fabrics and later in your Bangarra

32:25

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work, that even when you're doing costuming for Shining which sounds very elegant, sexy work, that even when you're doing costuming for Shining which sounds very elegant, sexy

32:31

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[Jennifer] And It was very elegant and sexy. [Martin] You were still, still looking for fabrics then too. [Jennifer] I was and [Jennifer] And It was very elegant and sexy. [Martin] You were still, still looking for fabrics then too. [Jennifer] I was and

32:36

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and finding individual pieces because every dance, every female dancer has an individual dress. So I guess that's how those and finding individual pieces because every dance, every female dancer has an individual dress. So I guess that's how those

32:44

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dresses became what they were, because of the fabrics. And, and I like, you know, I like sourcing my own fabrics. dresses became what they were, because of the fabrics. And, and I like, you know, I like sourcing my own fabrics.

32:54

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[Martin] What did you do the next, a couple of years later in 1989 [Martin] What did you do the next, a couple of years later in 1989

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in Kraan-, Kraanerg. [Jennifer] Kraanerg [Martin] Kraanerg. With a very assaulting score by, ah, Iannis Xenakis in Kraan-, Kraanerg. [Jennifer] Kraanerg [Martin] Kraanerg. With a very assaulting score by, ah, Iannis Xenakis

33:05

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[Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] The Greek, ah, composer. 25, [Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] The Greek, ah, composer. 25,

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23...[Jennifer] And Roger Woodwood was the, was the musician, the pianist. [Martin] Pianist conductor, 23 live musicians - lot to, ah, compete with on 23...[Jennifer] And Roger Woodwood was the, was the musician, the pianist. [Martin] Pianist conductor, 23 live musicians - lot to, ah, compete with on

33:16

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stage. Um, how did you, how did you costume... stage. Um, how did you, how did you costume...

33:21

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[Jennifer] Well it was, it was... [Martin] the dancers to get attention? [Jennifer] Um, George Friedman did the set, and he's architect now, recently lost. Um, [Jennifer] Well it was, it was... [Martin] the dancers to get attention? [Jennifer] Um, George Friedman did the set, and he's architect now, recently lost. Um,

33:31

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he was an architect and he designed this amazing set that was like tiny little cubist kind of boxes. he was an architect and he designed this amazing set that was like tiny little cubist kind of boxes.

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The whole back, backdrop that lit like, like a kaleidoscope. It was amazing. The whole back, backdrop that lit like, like a kaleidoscope. It was amazing.

33:46

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So. But it was a white set and we decided we would just, being such an abstract piece of music So. But it was a white set and we decided we would just, being such an abstract piece of music

33:51

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and the music was incredibly abstract, so abstract that - I'll tell you in a minute - um, so we just decided we'd design very basic costumes and the music was incredibly abstract, so abstract that - I'll tell you in a minute - um, so we just decided we'd design very basic costumes

34:04

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but with a lot of colour and bright colour. So once again it was sourcing really interesting pieces of fabric but with a lot of colour and bright colour. So once again it was sourcing really interesting pieces of fabric

34:13

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and everybody had an individual top and bottom, um, but bright, bright colours. So, and, and and everybody had an individual top and bottom, um, but bright, bright colours. So, and, and

34:21

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it was, they were like kaleid-, kaleidoscope of colours together. it was, they were like kaleid-, kaleidoscope of colours together.

34:28

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But going back to the, the, the score was so, um, impossible to, like the music was so impossible for the dancers to even But going back to the, the, the score was so, um, impossible to, like the music was so impossible for the dancers to even

34:37

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know when they ran off stage, like they know when they ran off stage, like they

34:40

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it was so jarring and so, um, unmelodic that if they didn't actually watch from side of stage they wouldn't have known it was so jarring and so, um, unmelodic that if they didn't actually watch from side of stage they wouldn't have known

34:49

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when to go back on. And Roger Woodward sent over the score on two, two CDs to Graeme. And Graeme choreographed Act one when to go back on. And Roger Woodward sent over the score on two, two CDs to Graeme. And Graeme choreographed Act one

35:01

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and then Act two. And of course when Roger Woodward arrived and then Act two. And of course when Roger Woodward arrived

35:05

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and started playing the music in the theatre a day before opening night, Graeme had choreographed the reverse. and started playing the music in the theatre a day before opening night, Graeme had choreographed the reverse.

35:14

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He'd actually choreographed the second Act first, and the first Act [laughs] the first Act second. He'd actually choreographed the second Act first, and the first Act [laughs] the first Act second.

35:22

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But luckily it didn't really matter because they just swapped it around. And, and it was, they only had one costume each so it But luckily it didn't really matter because they just swapped it around. And, and it was, they only had one costume each so it

35:29

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wasn't it, there, wasn't it, there,

35:29

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it wasn't a story. It was purely movement it wasn't a story. It was purely movement

35:32

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and abstract. [Martin] So already you're starting to, the idea that Murphy chooses, ah, an ensemble of dancers that look and abstract. [Martin] So already you're starting to, the idea that Murphy chooses, ah, an ensemble of dancers that look

35:42

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differently differently

35:43

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and then he puts character into his dance. The, the dancers play a character. So not surprisingly, and then he puts character into his dance. The, the dancers play a character. So not surprisingly,

35:50

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you're individually costuming each one differently. [Jennifer] Yeah. And, and everybody I mean because they're such different shapes you're individually costuming each one differently. [Jennifer] Yeah. And, and everybody I mean because they're such different shapes

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and sizes and tall and thin or, you know, and I, I guess in many ways I never put girls into anything and sizes and tall and thin or, you know, and I, I guess in many ways I never put girls into anything

36:05

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I didn't, I wouldn't have worn myself. And I became very good at knowing what dancers liked I didn't, I wouldn't have worn myself. And I became very good at knowing what dancers liked

36:13

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and also because I'd toured with them and I washed and ironed and did all of that and also because I'd toured with them and I washed and ironed and did all of that

36:17

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I also became very good at understanding what worked and what fell apart, and what, where the wear I also became very good at understanding what worked and what fell apart, and what, where the wear

36:25

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and tear was or, or, you know, like if you're dancing there's a lot of points and tear was or, or, you know, like if you're dancing there's a lot of points

36:33

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that, how you, how you approach a costume of where it's not going to rip, or where it's not and if you're mending it that, how you, how you approach a costume of where it's not going to rip, or where it's not and if you're mending it

36:41

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you're working out pretty quickly along the way where you have to alter your patterns you're working out pretty quickly along the way where you have to alter your patterns

36:46

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or, or where you put panels of stretch in this section or, or you know you can have really really tight trousers or, or where you put panels of stretch in this section or, or you know you can have really really tight trousers

36:54

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and in those days, there weren't many stretch fabrics - not like now. and in those days, there weren't many stretch fabrics - not like now.

36:58

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So you'd put stretch Lycra down the insides of legs to make, just so that they had just enough stretching possibilities So you'd put stretch Lycra down the insides of legs to make, just so that they had just enough stretching possibilities

37:07

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that they wouldn't rip their trousers that they wouldn't rip their trousers

37:08

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but still looked, looked like they were very straight non-stretch. [Martin] Because a lot of your costumes have little sort of windows, um, in the... [Jennifer] I do a lot but still looked, looked like they were very straight non-stretch. [Martin] Because a lot of your costumes have little sort of windows, um, in the... [Jennifer] I do a lot

37:17

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of panels. of panels.

37:18

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Yeah a lot of panels. [Martin] Use a lot of panels and that's, that's part of the look but also the technique of um... [Jennifer] Of making it wearable. [Martin] of what the dancers... [Jennifer]Wearable and Yeah a lot of panels. [Martin] Use a lot of panels and that's, that's part of the look but also the technique of um... [Jennifer] Of making it wearable. [Martin] of what the dancers... [Jennifer]Wearable and

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and last-lasting because if you've got a show that's eight shows a week and it's being washed every single and last-lasting because if you've got a show that's eight shows a week and it's being washed every single

37:32

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that's, you know, dancers they need, contemporary dancers need to wash the clothes every single day. [Martin] And as you, that's, you know, dancers they need, contemporary dancers need to wash the clothes every single day. [Martin] And as you,

37:39

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as you were establishing yourself as a designer at the Sydney Dance Company are you still making them all? [Jennifer] Yes I made every as you were establishing yourself as a designer at the Sydney Dance Company are you still making them all? [Jennifer] Yes I made every

37:45

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single costume while I was there. And I was there from, so early '80s - I left single costume while I was there. And I was there from, so early '80s - I left

37:51

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I stayed there till '90 I stayed there till '90

37:54

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when I, 1988, I, '89 I went to Italy again for a little bit and then I came back when I, 1988, I, '89 I went to Italy again for a little bit and then I came back

38:01

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and I stayed for, for another, another 9 years. So I was there 16 years altogether. But I worked out after and I stayed for, for another, another 9 years. So I was there 16 years altogether. But I worked out after

38:10

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I think I made up something like 99 shows in the time I was there. And I probably, I I think I made up something like 99 shows in the time I was there. And I probably, I

38:15

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I think I designed 35 or 36 of them. And, but a lot of them were, um, well Kristian and myself basically I think I designed 35 or 36 of them. And, but a lot of them were, um, well Kristian and myself basically

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and and

38:29

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when I say 99 of that might have been remaking, ah, oh,Free Radicals 10 times for 10 different, 10 different casts, when I say 99 of that might have been remaking, ah, oh,Free Radicals 10 times for 10 different, 10 different casts,

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like... [Martin] Like the later STC work. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] Um, I can't believe you made every costume for Vast. [Jennifer] No. like... [Martin] Like the later STC work. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] Um, I can't believe you made every costume for Vast. [Jennifer] No.

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No I didn't make every, no no, I, but that wasn't a solo Sydney Dance Company work. [Martin] No, no, no, No I didn't make every, no no, I, but that wasn't a solo Sydney Dance Company work. [Martin] No, no, no,

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it was a 1988 Bicentennial funded coproduction of the Sydney Dance Company it was a 1988 Bicentennial funded coproduction of the Sydney Dance Company

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and companies in Adelaide and in Brisbane and in Perth. All directed by Murphy and companies in Adelaide and in Brisbane and in Perth. All directed by Murphy

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and the largest dance work in Australian history. [Jennifer] That would have been, and the largest dance work in Australian history. [Jennifer] That would have been,

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it was the most amazing experience again. Um... [Martin] So a time of, it was a time of epic performances in it was the most amazing experience again. Um... [Martin] So a time of, it was a time of epic performances in

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in the theatre and in Opera, ah, and and in big events, in the late '80s. [Jennifer] And a brilliant in the theatre and in Opera, ah, and and in big events, in the late '80s. [Jennifer] And a brilliant

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thing to put all those companies together, because it was a bonding exercise. thing to put all those companies together, because it was a bonding exercise.

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I mean it was really amazing. Because what, Graeme choreographed it in, he I mean it was really amazing. Because what, Graeme choreographed it in, he

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what he did, he choreographed in Sydney, sections on Sydney Dance Company dancers. And then he went to other companies what he did, he choreographed in Sydney, sections on Sydney Dance Company dancers. And then he went to other companies

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and did the same, same choreography and then, and then it evolved and evolved and and did the same, same choreography and then, and then it evolved and evolved and

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when they all came back together in Sydney in the, the January before, or the month before we actually went on the road when they all came back together in Sydney in the, the January before, or the month before we actually went on the road

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and opened, he'd kind of take some people out of that section and add other people back in. But they all knew it because and opened, he'd kind of take some people out of that section and add other people back in. But they all knew it because

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and so it, it was, 'cause there were 80 dancers in that show. [Martin] And they all performed it together. [Jennifer] And all performed together and so it, it was, 'cause there were 80 dancers in that show. [Martin] And they all performed it together. [Jennifer] And all performed together

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and it was the best thing for, and just to, to bring all the dance community together, and it was the best thing for, and just to, to bring all the dance community together,

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all the production departments worked together on it. The cost, I probably made certain sections all the production departments worked together on it. The cost, I probably made certain sections

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and made samples of certain sections and sent them off to the other wardrobe departments who and made samples of certain sections and sent them off to the other wardrobe departments who

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made those sections and fitted them on their dancers made those sections and fitted them on their dancers

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and that's how we did it. So, so all four, companies were working on the same show at the same time and that's how we did it. So, so all four, companies were working on the same show at the same time

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and then we all came together and then we all, all went on tour. [Martin] And remind us of the chapters, and then we all came together and then we all, all went on tour. [Martin] And remind us of the chapters,

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the themes of Vast and then how and how you and how you made costumes of that. the themes of Vast and then how and how you and how you made costumes of that.

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[Jennifer] And so it was another abstract work. And it, um, it had the water, the earth, the sky, [Jennifer] And so it was another abstract work. And it, um, it had the water, the earth, the sky,

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the city, the tropical rainforests. It had, it was really about the land of Australia the city, the tropical rainforests. It had, it was really about the land of Australia

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I guess. Which is funny looking back in retrospect now, which is a lot what Stephen does I guess. Which is funny looking back in retrospect now, which is a lot what Stephen does

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too too

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when you think of how his company has evolved. [Martin] In Bangarra. [Jennifer] Totally different, absolutely totally different when you think of how his company has evolved. [Martin] In Bangarra. [Jennifer] Totally different, absolutely totally different

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but to think that it, Graeme's show Vast was really, it was an abstract story of the land of Australia. And so but to think that it, Graeme's show Vast was really, it was an abstract story of the land of Australia. And so

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and there was the water section that I used lots of costume fabric that was blue and silks and there was the water section that I used lots of costume fabric that was blue and silks

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and they had lots of, that had quite a lot of, um, volume in skirts. So he, he all, Graeme is a person that will always and they had lots of, that had quite a lot of, um, volume in skirts. So he, he all, Graeme is a person that will always

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use fabric. And if you give him fabric he'll use it. And as does Stephen use fabric. And if you give him fabric he'll use it. And as does Stephen

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but different, totally different. [Martin] You mean actually use it choreographically? [Jennifer] Yeah choreographically. [Martin] Put it into the show. [Jennifer] Mm, mm. but different, totally different. [Martin] You mean actually use it choreographically? [Jennifer] Yeah choreographically. [Martin] Put it into the show. [Jennifer] Mm, mm.

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[Martin] Not just dress it. [Jennifer] No, no. Movement out of these bits of fabric [Martin] Not just dress it. [Jennifer] No, no. Movement out of these bits of fabric

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and he still uses that nowadays. [Martin] Um, in 1991 and he still uses that nowadays. [Martin] Um, in 1991

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you did the costumes for Steven's show with the Sydney Dance Company. [Jennifer] Yep. [Martin] Stephen Page being a dancer of course with the you did the costumes for Steven's show with the Sydney Dance Company. [Jennifer] Yep. [Martin] Stephen Page being a dancer of course with the

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Sydney Dance Company at this time Sydney Dance Company at this time

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and then around this time you did other works by Sydney Dance, Dance Company dancers who were, and then around this time you did other works by Sydney Dance, Dance Company dancers who were,

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ah, to leave soon to make choreographic ah, to leave soon to make choreographic

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careers - like Kim Walker, Gidieon Oberzanek. Um... [Jennifer] Yes they're all, ah, Graeme was very generous and he gave, we, we did a few different shows careers - like Kim Walker, Gidieon Oberzanek. Um... [Jennifer] Yes they're all, ah, Graeme was very generous and he gave, we, we did a few different shows

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every so often where the dancers were given possibilities to choreograph their own works, and Stephen was one every so often where the dancers were given possibilities to choreograph their own works, and Stephen was one

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and I, I, I guess some, somebody like Graeme can see that there are dancers that don't just want to stop, just don't want and I, I, I guess some, somebody like Graeme can see that there are dancers that don't just want to stop, just don't want

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to be just dancers. They want to keep creating to be just dancers. They want to keep creating

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and have got talent at it. So Stephen, Gideon... [Martin] Paul Mercurio was another one. [Jennifer] Paul. They were all, they were all kind of and have got talent at it. So Stephen, Gideon... [Martin] Paul Mercurio was another one. [Jennifer] Paul. They were all, they were all kind of

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chomping at the bit to have possibilities. And, and we did Shakespeare Dances and I did the costumes for that chomping at the bit to have possibilities. And, and we did Shakespeare Dances and I did the costumes for that

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and that was one that, Gideon did one, ah, Stephen did one, Paul, ah, oh, anyway. [Martin] they were dance works inspired by a Shakespearen play? and that was one that, Gideon did one, ah, Stephen did one, Paul, ah, oh, anyway. [Martin] they were dance works inspired by a Shakespearen play?

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[Jennifer] Yeah and but in dance form. And Stephen's work was called Muggera. [Jennifer] Yeah and but in dance form. And Stephen's work was called Muggera.

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and he choreographed it on two of the dancers. Of course they had very little on, a lot of ochre [laughs] a lot of ochre and he choreographed it on two of the dancers. Of course they had very little on, a lot of ochre [laughs] a lot of ochre

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and it worked really well. It was so beautiful. And it was, Muggera being about the word for "storm coming" and well that's what I, and it worked really well. It was so beautiful. And it was, Muggera being about the word for "storm coming" and well that's what I,

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what I've always thought it was. Um, and it was a beautiful work and the music was by David Page and [Martin] His brother. what I've always thought it was. Um, and it was a beautiful work and the music was by David Page and [Martin] His brother.

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[Jennifer] it was, it was I guess, probably Stephen had done stuff at NAISDA possibly, [Jennifer] it was, it was I guess, probably Stephen had done stuff at NAISDA possibly,

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but I would imagine that was his first work that was seen by the public but I would imagine that was his first work that was seen by the public

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I would imagine - a paying audience. Um, so I guess that was the beginning of Stephen and, and I would imagine - a paying audience. Um, so I guess that was the beginning of Stephen and, and

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when you've got a, a person who wants to start a company and then when you've got a, a person who wants to start a company and then

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and then is invited to become part of Bangarra, who are you going to get to make your costumes, you're gonna get the person you know. and then is invited to become part of Bangarra, who are you going to get to make your costumes, you're gonna get the person you know.

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So I was in the right, and I mean we all got along so well. Stephen So I was in the right, and I mean we all got along so well. Stephen

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or like when you work for a dance company, you work for a family. And that was my, that, and it becomes an extended family or like when you work for a dance company, you work for a family. And that was my, that, and it becomes an extended family

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and this and you never lose them. And, and, and even now I, I still know all the old dancers and this and you never lose them. And, and, and even now I, I still know all the old dancers

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and all, anyone that comes to a company, we might part and, but we all know what each other are doing and all, anyone that comes to a company, we might part and, but we all know what each other are doing

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and Facebook certainly helped keep in contact with everybody. [Martin] Is that particular to a dance company even more than a theatre company and Facebook certainly helped keep in contact with everybody. [Martin] Is that particular to a dance company even more than a theatre company

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and an opera company or anything else? [Jennifer] Yes, yes, abs-, definitely because a permanent dance company is like a family and an opera company or anything else? [Jennifer] Yes, yes, abs-, definitely because a permanent dance company is like a family

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and you, you, they work together they, they have to, they have to trust each other because they're partnering each other and you, you, they work together they, they have to, they have to trust each other because they're partnering each other

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they're, they're touching each other all day. they're, they're touching each other all day.

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They're, they absolutely rely on each other They're, they absolutely rely on each other

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and they fall in love with each other. I mean it becomes, they have children with each other. Like it is, it's a family and and they fall in love with each other. I mean it becomes, they have children with each other. Like it is, it's a family and

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the family grows and continues and just evolves. And Sydney Dance Company, well Stephen went out on his own, Gideon went out the family grows and continues and just evolves. And Sydney Dance Company, well Stephen went out on his own, Gideon went out

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but they took and they still, well theatre is, is but they took and they still, well theatre is, is

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is a family, it's a very small industry. You find that you work with the same people over is a family, it's a very small industry. You find that you work with the same people over

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and over again in 20 or 30 years and over again in 20 or 30 years

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you, you re-meet each other because it's not that big a, big a, you know, industry. [Martin] We'll talk about your, um, professional you, you re-meet each other because it's not that big a, big a, you know, industry. [Martin] We'll talk about your, um, professional

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relationship with, collaboration with Stephen Page, that is so phenomenal relationship with, collaboration with Stephen Page, that is so phenomenal

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and went for such a long time, was, continues to go for such a long time. and went for such a long time, was, continues to go for such a long time.

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But what then in 1991 was your personal and professional interest in, in following him But what then in 1991 was your personal and professional interest in, in following him

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when he left to be artistic director of the then fledgling Bangarra Company based in Redfern. [Jennifer] Well I guess, not, well, I mean I don't treat Bangarra like it's an indig-, I mean, it's, when he left to be artistic director of the then fledgling Bangarra Company based in Redfern. [Jennifer] Well I guess, not, well, I mean I don't treat Bangarra like it's an indig-, I mean, it's,

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yes, it's an indigenous company but it's, Stephen is a friend, so if he'd been Chinese and had said to me, yes, it's an indigenous company but it's, Stephen is a friend, so if he'd been Chinese and had said to me,

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'Come and work for a Chinese, or just come and do the costumes for my company', or Gideon or anybody really, 'Come and work for a Chinese, or just come and do the costumes for my company', or Gideon or anybody really,

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but I've been very, um, I've been very privileged because very few white, white people even get to ever meet indigenous people in but I've been very, um, I've been very privileged because very few white, white people even get to ever meet indigenous people in

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this country. So it was a very, it was a big learning experience for me this country. So it was a very, it was a big learning experience for me

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and I'd met, I'd met, well Dav-, ah, David doing the music and I'd met Russell so... [Martin] Russell, the other and I'd met, I'd met, well Dav-, ah, David doing the music and I'd met Russell so... [Martin] Russell, the other

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Page brother, the dancer. [Jennifer] Page brother. And so when Stephen invited me to come and do the costumes, Page brother, the dancer. [Jennifer] Page brother. And so when Stephen invited me to come and do the costumes,

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it, it was still a pretty small project because they didn't have, they were starting their own new company, it, it was still a pretty small project because they didn't have, they were starting their own new company,

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so they didn't have a lot of money. But I had, I had facilities to build them in too. I could use the Sydney Dance company so they didn't have a lot of money. But I had, I had facilities to build them in too. I could use the Sydney Dance company

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wardrobe. So I, um, and also Stephen, we got on well. I know what he likes. wardrobe. So I, um, and also Stephen, we got on well. I know what he likes.

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He, well, he introduced me to everyone and they were, the first, the first kind of shows that he put together were rehearsed at He, well, he introduced me to everyone and they were, the first, the first kind of shows that he put together were rehearsed at

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Police Boys Club at Redfern Police Boys Club at Redfern

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in Phillip Street there. Ah, not Phillip, um, Elizabeth Street. Jack ?pulled out? all those, all those handsome, handsome boys and girls in Phillip Street there. Ah, not Phillip, um, Elizabeth Street. Jack ?pulled out? all those, all those handsome, handsome boys and girls

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and, and I just got along fine with them and the costumes worked. and, and I just got along fine with them and the costumes worked.

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And I guess just, it just went, oh well, that's that show and the next one and the next one and it really just evolved from that. And I guess just, it just went, oh well, that's that show and the next one and the next one and it really just evolved from that.

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So I mean it was more being in the right time at the right place and, and I like working with Stephen and So I mean it was more being in the right time at the right place and, and I like working with Stephen and

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I like working with Bangarra, so. [Martin] A big hit I like working with Bangarra, so. [Martin] A big hit

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I remember it well, particularly the music, was Preying Mantis Dreaming in 1992, David Page's music about a woman I remember it well, particularly the music, was Preying Mantis Dreaming in 1992, David Page's music about a woman

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of mixed heritage returning from the city to the homelands and the sort of fusion and traditional of mixed heritage returning from the city to the homelands and the sort of fusion and traditional

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and contemporary sounds and, and movement as well. and contemporary sounds and, and movement as well.

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What, were you doing a fusion of costumes in a similar kind of way? [Jennifer] I guess so. And also, I mean, it was pretty basic stuff, costume-wise, and leotards What, were you doing a fusion of costumes in a similar kind of way? [Jennifer] I guess so. And also, I mean, it was pretty basic stuff, costume-wise, and leotards

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and things. And they all painted all, all the, I mean when you look at them and things. And they all painted all, all the, I mean when you look at them

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they look like, you kind of think, oh my God they look pretty tragic. [laughs] There's a couple around still, but they were pretty tragic. And I don't know I think they, I they look like, you kind of think, oh my God they look pretty tragic. [laughs] There's a couple around still, but they were pretty tragic. And I don't know I think they, I

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think that was more me making and them painting more than anything. think that was more me making and them painting more than anything.

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But I guess the, the big one that really made Bangarra so popular was Ochres and the music But I guess the, the big one that really made Bangarra so popular was Ochres and the music

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and I guess 'cause that, that was the Enmore theatre and by then they had a really good following and I guess 'cause that, that was the Enmore theatre and by then they had a really good following

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and I think they, suddenly there was this new audience that thought, Oh my God, look at Bangarra and I think they, suddenly there was this new audience that thought, Oh my God, look at Bangarra

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it's such a fabulous show. [Martin] That already was in 1994 - Ochres. That was a landmark. [Jennifer] Yeah it was landmark it's such a fabulous show. [Martin] That already was in 1994 - Ochres. That was a landmark. [Jennifer] Yeah it was landmark

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which they brought back last year. [Martin] Yes. which they brought back last year. [Martin] Yes.

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[Jennifer] At Carriage Works [Jennifer] At Carriage Works

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and they did it exactly the same. We did it exactly the same and it really looked, it was, it was timeless and they did it exactly the same. We did it exactly the same and it really looked, it was, it was timeless

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and beautiful. [Martin] And for a designer you had a very kind of clear compass point I suppose because it was the inspiration of colours defined. [Jennifer] Of colour and beautiful. [Martin] And for a designer you had a very kind of clear compass point I suppose because it was the inspiration of colours defined. [Jennifer] Of colour

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[Martin] Combining four ochres. [Jennifer] Black, white, yellow, mm. [Martin] Yellow, black, red, and white. [Jennifer] And that was a show that Bangarra has toured a lot over the years [Martin] Combining four ochres. [Jennifer] Black, white, yellow, mm. [Martin] Yellow, black, red, and white. [Jennifer] And that was a show that Bangarra has toured a lot over the years

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and well in the early days it toured a lot and and well in the early days it toured a lot and

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then there was big gap, so. [Martin] So what did you do costume-wise in your logic of how to interpret then there was big gap, so. [Martin] So what did you do costume-wise in your logic of how to interpret

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and working with the set designer to ,to explore a colour? [Jennifer] I, I must say and working with the set designer to ,to explore a colour? [Jennifer] I, I must say

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I do work by myself a lot. Like with, I, you see what the set design is going to be, but I, I don't I do work by myself a lot. Like with, I, you see what the set design is going to be, but I, I don't

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I really probably go away and then come back. But I don't think, nowadays I really probably go away and then come back. But I don't think, nowadays

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when you look at, well sets are so much more substantial and you actually see the models when you look at, well sets are so much more substantial and you actually see the models

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and everything. So it gives you, gives you an inspiration of where you can go. and everything. So it gives you, gives you an inspiration of where you can go.

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But, um, I guess Ochres, Ochres was a pretty basic set again. It just had a little mound and, and But, um, I guess Ochres, Ochres was a pretty basic set again. It just had a little mound and, and

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when you're working with dance actually, you're working, you're building costumes and making and designing costumes as it goes along when you're working with dance actually, you're working, you're building costumes and making and designing costumes as it goes along

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because you don't know where it's going. Because choreographers they don't, they have an idea, because you don't know where it's going. Because choreographers they don't, they have an idea,

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but until you actually see them, see the product as it, if you sit in and watch a rehearsal period, but until you actually see them, see the product as it, if you sit in and watch a rehearsal period,

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they might have said to you, 'Oh well they might have said to you, 'Oh well

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I'd like a lot of, I'd like long flowing skirts in this section.' And then you'll go in and you'll watch the rehearsal I'd like a lot of, I'd like long flowing skirts in this section.' And then you'll go in and you'll watch the rehearsal

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and basically they're rolling around the ground on their knees. And you think, you know, this is never going to work, and so I I always and basically they're rolling around the ground on their knees. And you think, you know, this is never going to work, and so I I always

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or I guess I always start with Sydney Dance Company or I guess I always start with Sydney Dance Company

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and Bangarra now as working the reverse of, they've got to be able to do anything and they've got to be on their knees and and Bangarra now as working the reverse of, they've got to be able to do anything and they've got to be on their knees and

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you go the reverse because they're nearly always on their knees. They're nearly, they're, it's always ground, you know... [Martin] It's grounded. [Jennifer] Grounded. you go the reverse because they're nearly always on their knees. They're nearly, they're, it's always ground, you know... [Martin] It's grounded. [Jennifer] Grounded.

52:35

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[Martin] It's indigenous. [Jennifer] It's grounded, it's grounded. So, um, I go, I kind of approached it with other avenues of texture and that kind of stuff, but we'll get to that [laughs]. [Martin] Um, [Martin] It's indigenous. [Jennifer] It's grounded, it's grounded. So, um, I go, I kind of approached it with other avenues of texture and that kind of stuff, but we'll get to that [laughs]. [Martin] Um,

52:50

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so you were working at this stage with Peter England? [Jennifer] Peter England. [Martin] Um, was he doing a lot of the sets. so you were working at this stage with Peter England? [Jennifer] Peter England. [Martin] Um, was he doing a lot of the sets.

52:54

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But you say you were working by [Jennifer] Well... [Martin] yourself a bit so that the set is a bit of a foregone [Jennifer] Yes, but... [Martin] conclusion and you're not consulted But you say you were working by [Jennifer] Well... [Martin] yourself a bit so that the set is a bit of a foregone [Jennifer] Yes, but... [Martin] conclusion and you're not consulted

53:02

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in that process. [Jennifer] No, no. [Martin] And you in that process. [Jennifer] No, no. [Martin] And you

53:03

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wish to be? [Jennifer] When, when, we're, now with Bangarra now, it's much more of a collaboration where we all sit and, however, Stephen wish to be? [Jennifer] When, when, we're, now with Bangarra now, it's much more of a collaboration where we all sit and, however, Stephen

53:15

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and most, most directors and choreographers have a pretty clear vision of where they want, um, what kind of period and most, most directors and choreographers have a pretty clear vision of where they want, um, what kind of period

53:25

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or what kind of, whether they want something abstract or, ah, or architecture in their, in their set. or what kind of, whether they want something abstract or, ah, or architecture in their, in their set.

53:36

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However, dance, you tend to have a lot less set. Um, I, the set's generally done before the costumes are even thought of, However, dance, you tend to have a lot less set. Um, I, the set's generally done before the costumes are even thought of,

53:47

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and that, before a steps even been thought of and that, before a steps even been thought of

53:49

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and before the music. Because at least that's, it's a good starting point of, and I, and before the music. Because at least that's, it's a good starting point of, and I,

53:57

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I guess that's just the way people work, I guess that's just the way people work,

54:01

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I think. Um, but many times with Graeme I think. Um, but many times with Graeme

54:05

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and Stephen, the first time they see the costume's actually in the dress rehearsal, because we're just racing, racing, and Stephen, the first time they see the costume's actually in the dress rehearsal, because we're just racing, racing,

54:13

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racing to get it done. So, and unless I actually grab Stephen or Graeme or somebody and say, 'Come out into this room and racing to get it done. So, and unless I actually grab Stephen or Graeme or somebody and say, 'Come out into this room and

54:22

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this is, have a look at this and tell me if I'm going in the right direction.' Unless you actually, and, and because they trust me, this is, have a look at this and tell me if I'm going in the right direction.' Unless you actually, and, and because they trust me,

54:29

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they never even, they're kind of too busy trying to think about where they're going next. [Martin] And where are you getting they never even, they're kind of too busy trying to think about where they're going next. [Martin] And where are you getting

54:35

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your inspiration because you've got to [Jennifer] Well, okay. [Martin] do costumes that are different from each from each one [Jennifer] Yep. your inspiration because you've got to [Jennifer] Well, okay. [Martin] do costumes that are different from each from each one [Jennifer] Yep.

54:42

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[Martin] and it's [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah. [Martin] staggering how the variety of costumes you've come up [Jennifer] I know. [Martin] and it's [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah. [Martin] staggering how the variety of costumes you've come up [Jennifer] I know.

54:45

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over a Bangarra, over the Bangarra decade. So your inspirations[Jenifer] ..so, so can we talk about Bangarra then? 'Cause I mean Bangarra, well over a Bangarra, over the Bangarra decade. So your inspirations[Jenifer] ..so, so can we talk about Bangarra then? 'Cause I mean Bangarra, well

54:54

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the way, there's always a story. There's always a story of the Dreaming or a, or a, you know, there's a, there's the earth the the way, there's always a story. There's always a story of the Dreaming or a, or a, you know, there's a, there's the earth the

55:04

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ground, the water, the sky. Um, a story may be even Patyegarang or, or... [Martin] But later it's more historical and, and, and cultural and urban. [Jennifer] But that came a lot later. ground, the water, the sky. Um, a story may be even Patyegarang or, or... [Martin] But later it's more historical and, and, and cultural and urban. [Jennifer] But that came a lot later.

55:15

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[Martin] Yes it's grounded and land-based. So in Ochres for example, [Martin] Yes it's grounded and land-based. So in Ochres for example,

55:19

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what did you have to go off? [Jennifer] Girls, girls section, grouping, basically and that is also a way I approach it with Graeme, what did you have to go off? [Jennifer] Girls, girls section, grouping, basically and that is also a way I approach it with Graeme,

55:28

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I, or, ah, Stephen. I, or, ah, Stephen.

55:29

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Then I say, 'Just give me the the numbers Stephen. You've just to give me the numbers so we can start thinking about how we can break it down.' Then I say, 'Just give me the the numbers Stephen. You've just to give me the numbers so we can start thinking about how we can break it down.'

55:37

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And, and he'll be talking about okay, um, ah, what, you know, I want fabric in that section or I think, you know they're all up And, and he'll be talking about okay, um, ah, what, you know, I want fabric in that section or I think, you know they're all up

55:48

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so I think, but we still want to see their bodies so I think, but we still want to see their bodies

55:51

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and, um, I want the boys bare chested. Like we get, we actually do go that far and say and, um, I want the boys bare chested. Like we get, we actually do go that far and say

55:59

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I want skirts or what about a skirt in the section? Or what about you know I want skirts or what about a skirt in the section? Or what about you know

56:07

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with Bangarra I've made probably 30 various different types of male skirts. Like you think how many more skirts can I kind of with Bangarra I've made probably 30 various different types of male skirts. Like you think how many more skirts can I kind of

56:14

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come up with? But I, you don't want to go down leotards and, and bodystockings and things, or... [Martin] In that come up with? But I, you don't want to go down leotards and, and bodystockings and things, or... [Martin] In that

56:22

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when you're dealing in those, particularly in those early productions when they are land-based and, um, when you're dealing in those, particularly in those early productions when they are land-based and, um,

56:29

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and perhaps sort of traditionally inspired, um, and perhaps sort of traditionally inspired, um,

56:32

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what do you, um... [Jennifer] How careful? [Martin] Oh yes, what are you, um, what are you appropriating? Are you doing lots of things with gum leaves what do you, um... [Jennifer] How careful? [Martin] Oh yes, what are you, um, what are you appropriating? Are you doing lots of things with gum leaves

56:39

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and, ah, and, and and, ah, and, and

56:41

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are you, are you are you inspired by and learning about traditional Aboriginal, um, clothing or lack of it or, or scarring, ah, are you, are you are you inspired by and learning about traditional Aboriginal, um, clothing or lack of it or, or scarring, ah,

56:52

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designs aesthetics. [Jennifer] Yes, I mean over the years I've, I've been educated myself. Um, like what I would put on Bangarra I would have never designs aesthetics. [Jennifer] Yes, I mean over the years I've, I've been educated myself. Um, like what I would put on Bangarra I would have never

57:05

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I, you'd never dream of putting on Sydney Dance Company or Australian Ballet. However, you can say that I, you'd never dream of putting on Sydney Dance Company or Australian Ballet. However, you can say that

57:12

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but the co-works of Australian Ballet and Bangarra have worn the same, similar kind of costumes. But Bangarra is, I mean I'm non-indigenous. I, I, but the co-works of Australian Ballet and Bangarra have worn the same, similar kind of costumes. But Bangarra is, I mean I'm non-indigenous. I, I,

57:27

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have to be careful that I, I, I basically give them a costume that's have to be careful that I, I, I basically give them a costume that's

57:35

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a kind of an idea that's abstracted from any traditional thought, like a kind of an idea that's abstracted from any traditional thought, like

57:42

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I would never dream of going to the traditional side of things. Like it's I would never dream of going to the traditional side of things. Like it's

57:48

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if we had a traditional section in at Bangarra, that's not my job. if we had a traditional section in at Bangarra, that's not my job.

57:53

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I will ask Torres Strait Island or an elder or, you know, whoever where, where they, what tradition that needs to be, I will ask Torres Strait Island or an elder or, you know, whoever where, where they, what tradition that needs to be,

58:06

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I would get them to provide the feathers, strings and things like that because I, that, I wouldn't dare go there.[Martin] But you do a lot I would get them to provide the feathers, strings and things like that because I, that, I wouldn't dare go there.[Martin] But you do a lot

58:15

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with feathers. [Jennifer] But I do do a lot, but it's, but it's abstract. with feathers. [Jennifer] But I do do a lot, but it's, but it's abstract.

58:19

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I, I look at their stories and like for instance in Bennelong, I, and Patyegarang I, I look at their stories and like for instance in Bennelong, I, and Patyegarang

58:28

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if we're trying to have the story of the traditional people of, of the Eora I, I would, if we're trying to have the story of the traditional people of, of the Eora I, I would,

58:40

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because it's a modern work, I would use textures or, or, or weaving, but not, not because it's a modern work, I would use textures or, or, or weaving, but not, not

58:48

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it's not traditional in any way. it's not traditional in any way.

58:50

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It's removing myself from, its suggestion of, of, um, you know, of texture and what, and It's removing myself from, its suggestion of, of, um, you know, of texture and what, and

59:01

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and they paint themselves on with their ochre and everything. We, we, Stephen and I would say, 'Oh and they paint themselves on with their ochre and everything. We, we, Stephen and I would say, 'Oh

59:06

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what kind of ochre do you think would look good with this?' But, but also saying that, if it was a Djackapurra work what kind of ochre do you think would look good with this?' But, but also saying that, if it was a Djackapurra work

59:12

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I would asked Djackapoora who is the song man and cultural man of Bangarra from Arnhem land, he would have his trad-, I would asked Djackapoora who is the song man and cultural man of Bangarra from Arnhem land, he would have his trad-,

59:21

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tradition of things that need to be addressed that I would ask him colours and, and as we all would, you know. tradition of things that need to be addressed that I would ask him colours and, and as we all would, you know.

59:30

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And Bangarra... [Martin] So you'd costume, you'd costume him but you'd... [Jennifer] I would ask his advice and [Martin] was very much prescriptive. And Bangarra... [Martin] So you'd costume, you'd costume him but you'd... [Jennifer] I would ask his advice and [Martin] was very much prescriptive.

59:35

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[Jennifer] and I would expect him to tell me what he can't wear, what he is prepared to wear, what he thinks the other, you know, if [Jennifer] and I would expect him to tell me what he can't wear, what he is prepared to wear, what he thinks the other, you know, if

59:45

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there's anything that, that we shouldn't go, go with. [Martin] Are you picking up traditional methods of making costumes there's anything that, that we shouldn't go, go with. [Martin] Are you picking up traditional methods of making costumes

59:53

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and employing them? [Jennifer] I've, I've watched, but I, I haven't I and employing them? [Jennifer] I've, I've watched, but I, I haven't I

59:56

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I've never, no I've never learnt any, or any weaving I've never, no I've never learnt any, or any weaving

1:00:02

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or, 'cause if, if we need to have the new - certainly I do weaving in costume in fabrics. [Martin] Yes. or, 'cause if, if we need to have the new - certainly I do weaving in costume in fabrics. [Martin] Yes.

1:00:12

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[Jennifer] But that's just the way I'd make something in an abstract way. [Jennifer] But that's just the way I'd make something in an abstract way.

1:00:17

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It's not, I suppose it is drawing from looking at artefacts and, um, artefacts It's not, I suppose it is drawing from looking at artefacts and, um, artefacts

1:00:28

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and references of, of objects and things. Certainly I'm influenced and references of, of objects and things. Certainly I'm influenced

1:00:38

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but I'm not... [Martin] We'll come back to this as we talk more about Bangarra. But in this period of the '80s but I'm not... [Martin] We'll come back to this as we talk more about Bangarra. But in this period of the '80s

1:00:46

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when it's really taking, well in the '90s when it's really taking off, um, what was it, you talked about dance, when it's really taking, well in the '90s when it's really taking off, um, what was it, you talked about dance,

1:00:52

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a dance company being a family affair, a dance company being a family affair,

1:00:54

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This really was a family affair [Jennifer] This is. [Martin] with the Bangarra. You've got the three Page brothers, the dancer Russell, This really was a family affair [Jennifer] This is. [Martin] with the Bangarra. You've got the three Page brothers, the dancer Russell,

1:00:60

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the composer David and choreographer Stephen. Um, could you the composer David and choreographer Stephen. Um, could you

1:01:03

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just talk a little about the process of how you found that, in the collaborative way you did just talk a little about the process of how you found that, in the collaborative way you did

1:01:09

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or didn't work in evolving works with the three of them being, um, significant collaborators. [Jennifer] Well they were integral to each other or didn't work in evolving works with the three of them being, um, significant collaborators. [Jennifer] Well they were integral to each other

1:01:17

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and I mean it was admirable that, how they could be so gifted to put on a show, and I mean it was admirable that, how they could be so gifted to put on a show,

1:01:26

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that, and I mean we all got on well. We all got on well. The gorgeous generous, um, Page brothers, as is the whole family. Like, their, your know, the Mum and Dad that, and I mean we all got on well. We all got on well. The gorgeous generous, um, Page brothers, as is the whole family. Like, their, your know, the Mum and Dad

1:01:42

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and we all knew everybody. We've watched so many people come and die, and we all knew everybody. We've watched so many people come and die,

1:01:47

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and like it's, um, and the sisters and when you're on tour and and like it's, um, and the sisters and when you're on tour and

1:01:53

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and you're welcomed by all the, all the families. I mean, um, it's remarkable what, how Bangarra is a family that is probably one of the and you're welcomed by all the, all the families. I mean, um, it's remarkable what, how Bangarra is a family that is probably one of the

1:02:03

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largest families in, in indigenous Australia when you think of how many people have come into the family largest families in, in indigenous Australia when you think of how many people have come into the family

1:02:12

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and how much, um, like it's, everybody wants to be a part of Bangarra because they're, they' representing everybody in and how much, um, like it's, everybody wants to be a part of Bangarra because they're, they' representing everybody in

1:02:27

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their own way, but, um, and I mean Russell was such a gifted dancer and, and David being such a their own way, but, um, and I mean Russell was such a gifted dancer and, and David being such a

1:02:37

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a, an incredible gifted performer and musician. I mean I never, I never understood where he could even get the music a, an incredible gifted performer and musician. I mean I never, I never understood where he could even get the music

1:02:45

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and how do you create music? I, like, and they all brought their own bits to the company and how do you create music? I, like, and they all brought their own bits to the company

1:02:53

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and its I mean it's an unbelievable loss. and its I mean it's an unbelievable loss.

1:02:55

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I don't know how Stephen's going now that he's lost two of his best friends and brothers. [Martin] Both Russell and David I don't know how Stephen's going now that he's lost two of his best friends and brothers. [Martin] Both Russell and David

1:03:04

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[Jennifer] So, I mean it's been a tragedy over the last 12 years of what's happened to the, the Page family. But everybody [Jennifer] So, I mean it's been a tragedy over the last 12 years of what's happened to the, the Page family. But everybody

1:03:14

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supports each other. Um, working with the brothers in Redfern Police Boys, supports each other. Um, working with the brothers in Redfern Police Boys,

1:03:21

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they looked after me, you know, they, they looked after me. I had a little old they looked after me, you know, they, they looked after me. I had a little old

1:03:24

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Sunbeam Alpine car in those days, and they used to, and it was pretty rough down that area Sunbeam Alpine car in those days, and they used to, and it was pretty rough down that area

1:03:31

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and I'd drive my little car in [laughs] and, and they'd go out and they'd tell everyone don't, and I'd drive my little car in [laughs] and, and they'd go out and they'd tell everyone don't,

1:03:37

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don't touch that car [laughs]. You know they looked after me. So. [Martin] But families though can fracture and, and become jealous and people can be left out don't touch that car [laughs]. You know they looked after me. So. [Martin] But families though can fracture and, and become jealous and people can be left out

1:03:47

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when the family is big, um, whether they're Indigenous or non-Indigenous I imagine. Ah, was that, when the family is big, um, whether they're Indigenous or non-Indigenous I imagine. Ah, was that,

1:03:55

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was there sometimes professional discord? [Jennifer] No I never saw, I, no, I never was there sometimes professional discord? [Jennifer] No I never saw, I, no, I never

1:04:01

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I've never seen, I, really with Sydney Dance Company and Bangarra, I've never actually - dancers I've never seen, I, really with Sydney Dance Company and Bangarra, I've never actually - dancers

1:04:10

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seem to be very unique in the way that they all work together. seem to be very unique in the way that they all work together.

1:04:15

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I, um, I've never never seen any upset. I mean it's always been, I, um, I've never never seen any upset. I mean it's always been,

1:04:22

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it's been a very happy journey of both companies really. That it's been people working together to put on something it's been a very happy journey of both companies really. That it's been people working together to put on something

1:04:31

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that, um, you know, some, well working together to put on something that they are really proud of. [Martin[ Tell us about Fish in 1999 that, um, you know, some, well working together to put on something that they are really proud of. [Martin[ Tell us about Fish in 1999

1:04:43

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so that sort of drawing on water images again - swamps, traps and reefs, so that sort of drawing on water images again - swamps, traps and reefs,

1:04:49

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and the inclusion of Torres Strait Islander culture references as well. Um, do cos-... [Jennifer] And I guess Bangarra and the inclusion of Torres Strait Islander culture references as well. Um, do cos-... [Jennifer] And I guess Bangarra

1:04:56

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has I mean well there's Aboriginal Torres Strait Island which always amazes me why they're lumped into the same category has I mean well there's Aboriginal Torres Strait Island which always amazes me why they're lumped into the same category

1:05:02

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quite frankly, 'cause racially they're completely different. Um, quite frankly, 'cause racially they're completely different. Um,

1:05:07

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but Fish was, by that time Bangarra had moved from Redfern but Fish was, by that time Bangarra had moved from Redfern

1:05:12

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and they were, they'd found a premises in Leichhardt in a old, a big old warehouse and they were, they'd found a premises in Leichhardt in a old, a big old warehouse

1:05:18

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in Leichhardt upstairs. Um, Fish, I - what was I doing - I was working on a film then also, while they were doing Fish. I'm just thinking, in Leichhardt upstairs. Um, Fish, I - what was I doing - I was working on a film then also, while they were doing Fish. I'm just thinking,

1:05:33

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no that was the first time we did Fish. So we built it out of Leichhardt. Um, there were no that was the first time we did Fish. So we built it out of Leichhardt. Um, there were

1:05:38

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these, Stephen had met Peter England. Peter England being another non-Indigenous guy. Um, he, he was a NIDA graduate. these, Stephen had met Peter England. Peter England being another non-Indigenous guy. Um, he, he was a NIDA graduate.

1:05:50

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Um, he started Um, he started

1:05:53

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doing the sets. He got along very well with Stephen. So that's where his side doing the sets. He got along very well with Stephen. So that's where his side

1:05:59

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and, and he worked for Bangarra for probably I don't know, 16-20 years himself before Jake came along. [Martin] Jacob Nash. and, and he worked for Bangarra for probably I don't know, 16-20 years himself before Jake came along. [Martin] Jacob Nash.

1:06:09

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[Jennifer] Jacob Nash. Um, so yes I've had a long working relationship with Stephen and, and Peter. Um, Fish, Fish [Jennifer] Jacob Nash. Um, so yes I've had a long working relationship with Stephen and, and Peter. Um, Fish, Fish

1:06:22

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I guess we all bro-, I, that was probably the first show I actually built on the premises I guess we all bro-, I, that was probably the first show I actually built on the premises

1:06:28

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with Bangarra being in the same place at the same time for a long, because before then with Bangarra being in the same place at the same time for a long, because before then

1:06:34

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I think I'd still been with the Sydney Dance Company. I think I'd still been with the Sydney Dance Company.

1:06:36

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So I think that was my first - what year was that? [Martin] In '99? [Jennifer] Yeah, so that was probably the first show I actually built, So I think that was my first - what year was that? [Martin] In '99? [Jennifer] Yeah, so that was probably the first show I actually built,

1:06:45

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yeah, with them because I left Sydney Dance Company in 1997. yeah, with them because I left Sydney Dance Company in 1997.

1:06:49

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And in 1997 I left Sydney Dance Company because I decided, well, I can stay here forever And in 1997 I left Sydney Dance Company because I decided, well, I can stay here forever

1:06:58

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or... [Martin] We might come to that. or... [Martin] We might come to that.

1:07:01

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[Jennifer] Yep. [Martin] We might come to that. But we've got this period of Bangarra [Jennifer] Yep. [Martin] We might come to that. But we've got this period of Bangarra

1:07:04

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and ah, a particularly strong presence was, you mentioned him before, the north-east Arnhem land dancer, um, and ah, a particularly strong presence was, you mentioned him before, the north-east Arnhem land dancer, um,

1:07:13

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Djakapurra Munyarryun. 23 Djakapurra Munyarryun. 23

1:07:17

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but billed as a cultural designer. So we talked about how you do but billed as a cultural designer. So we talked about how you do

1:07:21

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or don't work collaborate with Peter England the set designer, you're now working with a cultural designer. [Jennifer] And, and Djakapurra was or don't work collaborate with Peter England the set designer, you're now working with a cultural designer. [Jennifer] And, and Djakapurra was

1:07:29

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when Stephen went, was at NAISDA, he must've met Djakapurra then, so when Stephen went, was at NAISDA, he must've met Djakapurra then, so

1:07:34

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and he, I know he went up to Arnhem Land because I think they did cultural tours of from NAISDA to you know build and he, I know he went up to Arnhem Land because I think they did cultural tours of from NAISDA to you know build

1:07:43

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bridges and, well literally, um, not literally. Um, and went up to Arnhem Land and bridges and, well literally, um, not literally. Um, and went up to Arnhem Land and

1:07:49

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and he become a great friend of Djakapurra's and he become a great friend of Djakapurra's

1:07:52

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and was welcomed into the Yakala family, of which they have given Stephen a lot of his stories, and was welcomed into the Yakala family, of which they have given Stephen a lot of his stories,

1:08:01

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their stories for him to put on stage. So Djakapurra has been a huge influence on Stephen and, and David with music their stories for him to put on stage. So Djakapurra has been a huge influence on Stephen and, and David with music

1:08:13

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and song, song and, and your dance like Didgeridoo, the, the sounds and song, song and, and your dance like Didgeridoo, the, the sounds

1:08:22

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and people that they've met, that have, um, collaborated on, on all the projects - whether it be music and people that they've met, that have, um, collaborated on, on all the projects - whether it be music

1:08:30

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and well, cultural stories. and well, cultural stories.

1:08:35

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So, so Djakapurra, I mean he's just a lovely, lovely man So, so Djakapurra, I mean he's just a lovely, lovely man

1:08:41

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and he, he looks like an old soul, but he's actually not that old. Like he's, he's and he, he looks like an old soul, but he's actually not that old. Like he's, he's

1:08:47

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and he is from one of the most, ah, well it's like the royal family in Arnhem land. I mean, he's, he's hugely significance in that in and he is from one of the most, ah, well it's like the royal family in Arnhem land. I mean, he's, he's hugely significance in that in

1:08:58

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that community up there as is his family. So I mean that community up there as is his family. So I mean

1:09:05

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when I first met Djakapurra I was amazed 'cause, you know, I'd never seen anyone so, so dark, and his eyes so white and his when I first met Djakapurra I was amazed 'cause, you know, I'd never seen anyone so, so dark, and his eyes so white and his

1:09:14

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mouth. mouth.

1:09:15

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These teeth so white and his, there's something very, very special about him. And you get shivers up your spine These teeth so white and his, there's something very, very special about him. And you get shivers up your spine

1:09:21

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when you hear him sing. It's like he's, he's... [Martin] He's quite thick set, when has on stage such gravitas. [Jennifer] Yes but he wasn't, when you hear him sing. It's like he's, he's... [Martin] He's quite thick set, when has on stage such gravitas. [Jennifer] Yes but he wasn't,

1:09:27

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but he wasn't thickset in those days. I mean he was a tall skinny, skinny young man but he wasn't thickset in those days. I mean he was a tall skinny, skinny young man

1:09:33

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But he's become this striking large man. But he's become this striking large man.

1:09:37

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but he, like I mean, he's a very special like you know ... So he's become a friend. He's become a friend but he, like I mean, he's a very special like you know ... So he's become a friend. He's become a friend

1:09:48

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and, and over the years there's been a lot of shows that, that he's absolutely instrumental in. I mean he's like a big bear, and, and over the years there's been a lot of shows that, that he's absolutely instrumental in. I mean he's like a big bear,

1:09:57

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he'd give you a huge big hug, like. And, and the Olympics he'd give you a huge big hug, like. And, and the Olympics

1:10:01

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and all of those, like, I, that's another story of going to Arnhem Land with Stephen and meeting all sorts of people. and all of those, like, I, that's another story of going to Arnhem Land with Stephen and meeting all sorts of people.

1:10:09

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So I'd been... [Martin] So you experienced that exchange? [Jennifer] Yeah I mean So I'd been... [Martin] So you experienced that exchange? [Jennifer] Yeah I mean

1:10:13

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and that's, that's, I don't think anyone else's has had these opportunities to be put in these situations. I mean and that's, that's, I don't think anyone else's has had these opportunities to be put in these situations. I mean

1:10:21

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I'm, it's amazing to be embraced by families and by unique and so unique too. [Martin] And I'm, it's amazing to be embraced by families and by unique and so unique too. [Martin] And

1:10:31

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again did that, did that experience [Jennifer] Oh, it's amazing. []Martin] of those stories, or exper-, of, of going into that environment, did that, was, was that again did that, did that experience [Jennifer] Oh, it's amazing. []Martin] of those stories, or exper-, of, of going into that environment, did that, was, was that

1:10:40

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was that an inspiration of some motifs in your costumes [Jenifer] Yeah. [Martin] that were going to come up later - patternings, fabrics? was that an inspiration of some motifs in your costumes [Jenifer] Yeah. [Martin] that were going to come up later - patternings, fabrics?

1:10:51

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[Jennifer] Well, ah, it can't not, not have an influence on you when you, when you see when you go to community and you go to their homelands and, [Jennifer] Well, ah, it can't not, not have an influence on you when you, when you see when you go to community and you go to their homelands and,

1:11:03

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and you are introduced to people in their own homeland. And I mean I, like, you know, I'm a city girl. and you are introduced to people in their own homeland. And I mean I, like, you know, I'm a city girl.

1:11:12

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There it's like, to take me up to, when, during the Olympics, Stephen and I flew in little aeroplanes all over the top end There it's like, to take me up to, when, during the Olympics, Stephen and I flew in little aeroplanes all over the top end

1:11:21

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and we went down into communities and I mean, I was welcomed and and we went down into communities and I mean, I was welcomed and

1:11:28

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they grab your hand and they held your hand, and like all the women. Like it's remarkable. they grab your hand and they held your hand, and like all the women. Like it's remarkable.

1:11:34

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I went to a, the Central Desert Women's Conference in, for the Olympics, with Stephen to invite the central desert women to I went to a, the Central Desert Women's Conference in, for the Olympics, with Stephen to invite the central desert women to

1:11:45

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be part of the Olympics. And we arrived in Alice Springs and I was, be part of the Olympics. And we arrived in Alice Springs and I was,

1:11:54

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I was there with one other white Australian girl from SOCOG, the organising committee of the Olympics, I was there with one other white Australian girl from SOCOG, the organising committee of the Olympics,

1:12:01

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and the two of us, we were told, 'Follow us.' So they gave us this big troop carrier car to drive, and we followed Stephen in his troop carrier and the two of us, we were told, 'Follow us.' So they gave us this big troop carrier car to drive, and we followed Stephen in his troop carrier

1:12:13

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and, and he was with all the locals heading off heading south west and, and he was with all the locals heading off heading south west

1:12:20

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I think we were heading, and we followed them and we followed them for seven hours. And we had, all we had was water I think we were heading, and we followed them and we followed them for seven hours. And we had, all we had was water

1:12:28

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and we had you know no mobile phone, like nothing works out there. and we had you know no mobile phone, like nothing works out there.

1:12:32

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We followed them and followed them and then we got there seven a half hours later and it was like, We followed them and followed them and then we got there seven a half hours later and it was like,

1:12:38

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like we went through areas that nobody would have been allowed to go through, like we went through areas that nobody would have been allowed to go through,

1:12:43

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but we were with them [laughs]. At the far, the dust, we followed the dust. but we were with them [laughs]. At the far, the dust, we followed the dust.

1:12:50

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We followed the, we followed the headlights through the dust, like it was just quite extraordinary. We followed the, we followed the headlights through the dust, like it was just quite extraordinary.

1:12:55

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And then we got there And then we got there

1:12:56

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and there were probably 400 or 500 women all sitting around campfires in riverbeds. All women. And Stephen and there were probably 400 or 500 women all sitting around campfires in riverbeds. All women. And Stephen

1:13:05

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then had to go because he wasn't allowed to be there because he wasn't a, you know, then had to go because he wasn't allowed to be there because he wasn't a, you know,

1:13:10

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it was a women's conference. So Gina and myself got, we, we, they provided us with swags and we spent you know a few days there it was a women's conference. So Gina and myself got, we, we, they provided us with swags and we spent you know a few days there

1:13:20

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and Stephen had to and Stephen had to

1:13:20

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come back the next day and then and talk and invite them to see whether they wanted to particpate at all. come back the next day and then and talk and invite them to see whether they wanted to particpate at all.

1:13:27

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But we would have been the English speakers, like nobody there spoke English. Like it, But we would have been the English speakers, like nobody there spoke English. Like it,

1:13:34

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it was extraordinary to come to, to this other, like this is Australia. This is Australia that many people don't know. [Martin] And what did it involve, it was extraordinary to come to, to this other, like this is Australia. This is Australia that many people don't know. [Martin] And what did it involve,

1:13:42

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what were you seeking from them? [Jennifer] Well to see if they wanted to represent themselves in the Olympic ceremony, opening ceremony. what were you seeking from them? [Jennifer] Well to see if they wanted to represent themselves in the Olympic ceremony, opening ceremony.

1:13:49

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And Stephen being the artistic director of the opening, of the opening ceremony of the indigenous awakening section And Stephen being the artistic director of the opening, of the opening ceremony of the indigenous awakening section

1:13:57

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went, he went, he wanted the indigenous community to be represented by the Central Desert, by Torres, by went, he went, he wanted the indigenous community to be represented by the Central Desert, by Torres, by

1:14:07

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Yakala by ?Nombawah? by, you know, all sorts of different communities. ?Ramingerie? ? Maningritta? Yakala by ?Nombawah? by, you know, all sorts of different communities. ?Ramingerie? ? Maningritta?

1:14:14

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So we went to all over the place to invite people. And they might say, 'We don't want to have any part of it. So we went to all over the place to invite people. And they might say, 'We don't want to have any part of it.

1:14:21

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Why don't you ask these other people?' But Why don't you ask these other people?' But

1:14:24

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I, and I don't know the back story of how they actually decided who was going to come to Sydney, but the Central Desert Women I, and I don't know the back story of how they actually decided who was going to come to Sydney, but the Central Desert Women

1:14:34

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community they, they sent about two or three hundred people. And I had met them to meet them to see down the track community they, they sent about two or three hundred people. And I had met them to meet them to see down the track

1:14:43

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when we were actually designing and coordinating that section that I had, I knew people there when we were actually designing and coordinating that section that I had, I knew people there

1:14:51

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and I could correspond you know, talk to them about what they wanted to wear or what they didn't want to wear and I could correspond you know, talk to them about what they wanted to wear or what they didn't want to wear

1:14:57

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or what they would provide or not, or colours or you know that kind of thing. or what they would provide or not, or colours or you know that kind of thing.

1:15:04

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So I went all over the top end - Torres, you name it, I went there So I went all over the top end - Torres, you name it, I went there

1:15:09

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and [Martin] So how many people finally did you have for the Awakening part of the ceremony, opening ceremony of the Olympics? [Jennifer] I think there were, and [Martin] So how many people finally did you have for the Awakening part of the ceremony, opening ceremony of the Olympics? [Jennifer] I think there were,

1:15:15

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there were about 2500 represented. [Martin] Wow. there were about 2500 represented. [Martin] Wow.

1:15:18

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[Jennifer] And they all came to what they called "Harbour Bridge" [laughs] 'cause they didn't know, they didn't, like, most of these people had never been out [Jennifer] And they all came to what they called "Harbour Bridge" [laughs] 'cause they didn't know, they didn't, like, most of these people had never been out

1:15:30

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of their environments, like they didn't know where they were going, they just had to trust Stephen really. They had no idea where they were going, so they just called it 'Harbour Bridge' of their environments, like they didn't know where they were going, they just had to trust Stephen really. They had no idea where they were going, so they just called it 'Harbour Bridge'

1:15:38

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Like they didn't know they were going, like most of them couldn't even speak the English language. Like they didn't know they were going, like most of them couldn't even speak the English language.

1:15:44

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So they, and a lot of them couldn't even speak to each other because they were all in different language groups. [Martin] And what did, what did they wear So they, and a lot of them couldn't even speak to each other because they were all in different language groups. [Martin] And what did, what did they wear

1:15:51

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or what did you provide or encourage? [Jennifer] Well we, we it was, well every group was a different kind of section or what did you provide or encourage? [Jennifer] Well we, we it was, well every group was a different kind of section

1:15:58

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and the women, I mean, we prov-, the central desert women all they wanted were skirts and they painted their breasts. and the women, I mean, we prov-, the central desert women all they wanted were skirts and they painted their breasts.

1:16:04

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They went bare. And they, um, but we just, you know, we had to get them their ochre They went bare. And they, um, but we just, you know, we had to get them their ochre

1:16:11

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and their food, well not me personally, but we had to know what they, what they could eat and their food, well not me personally, but we had to know what they, what they could eat

1:16:16

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and what, what didn't make them sick and what, what didn't make them sick

1:16:18

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and what, so they all had kangaroo tail flown down to the, to Sydney to eat during the Olympics and what, so they all had kangaroo tail flown down to the, to Sydney to eat during the Olympics

1:16:24

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and everyone was put to, to stay at, um, down near Stanwell Tops, down in, near Wollongong. They were all put together in a big and everyone was put to, to stay at, um, down near Stanwell Tops, down in, near Wollongong. They were all put together in a big

1:16:34

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conference centre and they, I mean a lot of those people weren't interested in being in a, in a bed. conference centre and they, I mean a lot of those people weren't interested in being in a, in a bed.

1:16:40

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They like camping and they like sleeping out, but it was freezing. Like we had to provide food for them. They like camping and they like sleeping out, but it was freezing. Like we had to provide food for them.

1:16:45

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We had to, um, clothes, shoes, everything. I mean it was was an unbelievable experience of getting people together and, and Torres Strait elders We had to, um, clothes, shoes, everything. I mean it was was an unbelievable experience of getting people together and, and Torres Strait elders

1:16:55

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meeting ind-, indigenous elders. And chaperones and children and, you know, it was really fabulous. Like, but that's a whole meeting ind-, indigenous elders. And chaperones and children and, you know, it was really fabulous. Like, but that's a whole

1:17:04

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complete other story. [Martin] Well while we're on the 2000 Sydney Olympics, you also co-designed the costumes [Jennifer] For all the closing ceremony. complete other story. [Martin] Well while we're on the 2000 Sydney Olympics, you also co-designed the costumes [Jennifer] For all the closing ceremony.

1:17:12

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[Martin] For the closing ceremony. And the earlier Festival of Dreaming, um, a few years before 2000. [Martin] For the closing ceremony. And the earlier Festival of Dreaming, um, a few years before 2000.

1:17:20

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And what was, what was your inspiration for the, ah, for the, for the closing ceremony? And what was, what was your inspiration for the, ah, for the, for the closing ceremony?

1:17:25

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[Jennifer] Clos-, well, I mean, that was very much driven by the Olympic, well David Atkins [Jennifer] Clos-, well, I mean, that was very much driven by the Olympic, well David Atkins

1:17:35

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and what sections, who was going to perform, whether AC/DC was going to perform and what sections, who was going to perform, whether AC/DC was going to perform

1:17:40

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or Kylie Minogue or blah, you know, who was actually going to be involved in the closing ceremony. And once, well or Kylie Minogue or blah, you know, who was actually going to be involved in the closing ceremony. And once, well

1:17:48

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and it was who they chose, so once they were signed on the dotted line, then we and it was who they chose, so once they were signed on the dotted line, then we

1:17:53

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designed their costume plus the people that accompanied them and the dancers and the performers designed their costume plus the people that accompanied them and the dancers and the performers

1:18:02

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and like there was a Strictly Ballroom section, so there were ballroom dancers and there were people holding feet dancing. Like every and like there was a Strictly Ballroom section, so there were ballroom dancers and there were people holding feet dancing. Like every

1:18:11

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section was a completely different section. There was Bananas in Pyjamas, section was a completely different section. There was Bananas in Pyjamas,

1:18:16

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there was Kylie Minogue and the, and the, the, the Swans carrying Kylie Minogue in. Like it was there was Kylie Minogue and the, and the, the, the Swans carrying Kylie Minogue in. Like it was

1:18:24

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there was a representation of every conceivable thing Australian. And it was fun. It was meant to be like a party and there was a representation of every conceivable thing Australian. And it was fun. It was meant to be like a party and

1:18:34

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we, you know, Gary Norman and then there were golfers and there like, not Gary, um, was his name Norman? we, you know, Gary Norman and then there were golfers and there like, not Gary, um, was his name Norman?

1:18:41

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The golfer. [Martin] Yes, Norman, yes [laughs]. [Jennifer] So like it was just The golfer. [Martin] Yes, Norman, yes [laughs]. [Jennifer] So like it was just

1:18:46

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yeah, that, it was, so basically we had guidelines of what we needed to design costumes for, yeah, that, it was, so basically we had guidelines of what we needed to design costumes for,

1:18:52

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but, but it's an Arena spectacular but, but it's an Arena spectacular

1:18:55

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and so you've got to think big, you've got to think colourful, you've got to think, no point doing little tiny details and things. and so you've got to think big, you've got to think colourful, you've got to think, no point doing little tiny details and things.

1:19:02

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But you've got to make it interesting enough for television too. So, so I guess I learnt other things doing spectaculars But you've got to make it interesting enough for television too. So, so I guess I learnt other things doing spectaculars

1:19:12

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and 'cause they were, like being involved in the indigenous, well the Awakening section of the opening to doing bright and 'cause they were, like being involved in the indigenous, well the Awakening section of the opening to doing bright

1:19:23

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colourful things and closing, like the two absolute extremes. colourful things and closing, like the two absolute extremes.

1:19:29

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[Martin] And, ah, how many, how many performers in the closing were you responsible for making sure they had a costume? [Jennifer] Thousands. [Martin] And, ah, how many, how many performers in the closing were you responsible for making sure they had a costume? [Jennifer] Thousands.

1:19:37

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I can't remember I can't remember

1:19:38

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I honestly can't remember. [Martin] And I suppose, you, you talked about the bigness of it, it's not a matter, it wasn't a matter of avoiding I honestly can't remember. [Martin] And I suppose, you, you talked about the bigness of it, it's not a matter, it wasn't a matter of avoiding

1:19:44

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clichés, it's embracing clichés. clichés, it's embracing clichés.

1:19:46

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[Jennifer] Oh, It was fantastic. It was fantastic [Jennifer] Oh, It was fantastic. It was fantastic

1:19:49

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and working for something like that where you, where we had all of the costume, the costume was built in one room and working for something like that where you, where we had all of the costume, the costume was built in one room

1:19:59

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upstairs at what is now Carriage Works. And all the set, and set pieces and trucks upstairs at what is now Carriage Works. And all the set, and set pieces and trucks

1:20:05

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and everything that was kind of rolled on and everything from chrome coloured Hills Hoists and everything that was kind of rolled on and everything from chrome coloured Hills Hoists

1:20:15

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everything was built downstairs. And so we had costumes being made upstairs, so we could walk through everything was built downstairs. And so we had costumes being made upstairs, so we could walk through

1:20:23

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and, um, what were they - prawns on roller-skates and whatever they were - were were in the same building being built by everybody and, um, what were they - prawns on roller-skates and whatever they were - were were in the same building being built by everybody

1:20:34

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you knew. So I think there were three supervisors, costume supervisors. you knew. So I think there were three supervisors, costume supervisors.

1:20:40

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There were all the construction supervisors. Everybody that worked in film, everyone that worked in performing arts, stage, opera There were all the construction supervisors. Everybody that worked in film, everyone that worked in performing arts, stage, opera

1:20:48

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everybody were all on the same job. And it was, every day was exciting. Every single day to go in everybody were all on the same job. And it was, every day was exciting. Every single day to go in

1:20:55

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and see everybody coming up with these most amazing things. And, and and see everybody coming up with these most amazing things. And, and

1:21:02

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and there, it was kind of, I don't really think I ever had a budget. I don't know. They probably would have reined us in and there, it was kind of, I don't really think I ever had a budget. I don't know. They probably would have reined us in

1:21:10

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if it had gone too, too over. But I never was conscious of thinking - budget. if it had gone too, too over. But I never was conscious of thinking - budget.

1:21:18

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And I, I guess the hard, hardest part was for the, we got, you know, finding the same kind of shoes for 200 people. Or And I, I guess the hard, hardest part was for the, we got, you know, finding the same kind of shoes for 200 people. Or

1:21:30

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the same kind of in different sizes, like the handouts the same kind of in different sizes, like the handouts

1:21:33

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for the, for the, for the Olympics. They only, they did a couple of rehearsals out at a place called Schofields, in the middle of nowhere for the, for the, for the Olympics. They only, they did a couple of rehearsals out at a place called Schofields, in the middle of nowhere

1:21:43

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and intense. And by that time where everything was designed, made, in plastic bags, and intense. And by that time where everything was designed, made, in plastic bags,

1:21:51

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and then they would, they would be doing sections of, of the rehearsal, and then they would be led off and then they would, they would be doing sections of, of the rehearsal, and then they would be led off

1:21:59

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and then they would all come running towards us and then they would all come running towards us

1:22:02

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and we would give them, you know it was like a military manoeuvre really, where they'd come we'd think, Oh my God here they come. and we would give them, you know it was like a military manoeuvre really, where they'd come we'd think, Oh my God here they come.

1:22:10

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And they'd come over and then they'd be lined up and there'd be, you know, sizing, and then go next door to the shoes And they'd come over and then they'd be lined up and there'd be, you know, sizing, and then go next door to the shoes

1:22:18

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and all of that kind of thing. It was pretty pretty wild. It was wild. [Martin] And were there any particular favourite costumes of yours that and all of that kind of thing. It was pretty pretty wild. It was wild. [Martin] And were there any particular favourite costumes of yours that

1:22:24

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you think belong in a museum? [Jennifer] Um, well I think Christine Anu's dress was, she sang My Island Home you think belong in a museum? [Jennifer] Um, well I think Christine Anu's dress was, she sang My Island Home

1:22:35

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and I made that out of little tiny, well they were all, um, shell, like, um, can't think - pearl shells. [Martin] Yeah. and I made that out of little tiny, well they were all, um, shell, like, um, can't think - pearl shells. [Martin] Yeah.

1:22:49

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[Jennifer] And to me that was beautiful because it just shone and she [Jennifer] And to me that was beautiful because it just shone and she

1:22:53

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she was, looked so beautiful. Um, I don't know, well I co-designed it, so I did it with Michael Wilkinson she was, looked so beautiful. Um, I don't know, well I co-designed it, so I did it with Michael Wilkinson

1:23:02

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who is an Australian designer whose since won an Oscar for Hustler. After the Olympics he went who is an Australian designer whose since won an Oscar for Hustler. After the Olympics he went

1:23:09

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straight to America and he's never come back. And he just works movies - movies movies. straight to America and he's never come back. And he just works movies - movies movies.

1:23:15

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movies. So we both, we just, we, we were kind of, I did one, movies. So we both, we just, we, we were kind of, I did one,

1:23:20

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he did one, like, we were divvied up different groups to get, and I am, trying to think, oh there were so many, you know, there was so many. he did one, like, we were divvied up different groups to get, and I am, trying to think, oh there were so many, you know, there was so many.

1:23:32

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[Martin] Let's finish the Bangarra chapter, um, at the end of this time, because that's the [Martin] Let's finish the Bangarra chapter, um, at the end of this time, because that's the

1:23:37

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2000 Olympics of course 2000 Olympics of course

1:23:38

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and, um, you were doing a lot of Bangarra productions up till then. Um, but then you began a stage working for the Australian Ballet and, um, you were doing a lot of Bangarra productions up till then. Um, but then you began a stage working for the Australian Ballet

1:23:45

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and it was Stephen and it was Stephen

1:23:46

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who I suppose took you to the Ballet. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] Ah, for the first Ballet production you did Alchemy?[Jennifer] Alchemy and that was... [Martin] In 1996 who I suppose took you to the Ballet. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] Ah, for the first Ballet production you did Alchemy?[Jennifer] Alchemy and that was... [Martin] In 1996

1:23:54

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[Jennifer] Yeah, so that really was just before I left Sydney Dance company. So, or it must have been, um, it was very close. [Jennifer] Yeah, so that really was just before I left Sydney Dance company. So, or it must have been, um, it was very close.

1:24:02

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I was either just leaving or just, and maybe that is why I left Sydney Dance Company so I could actually go and do Stephen's work for the Australian Ballet. I was either just leaving or just, and maybe that is why I left Sydney Dance Company so I could actually go and do Stephen's work for the Australian Ballet.

1:24:11

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And it was perf-, I mean, you know how perfect is that to, to leave a company and go to a major, major company in Australia and, And it was perf-, I mean, you know how perfect is that to, to leave a company and go to a major, major company in Australia and,

1:24:20

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and design your and design your

1:24:20

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first work? And be with Stephen. And that was, that was with the Australian Ballet Company, it wasn't with Bangarra first work? And be with Stephen. And that was, that was with the Australian Ballet Company, it wasn't with Bangarra

1:24:29

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but he used, well it was David doing the music and... [Martin] On the dancers of the Australian Ballet? [Jennifer] On the dancers of the Australian Ballet but he used, well it was David doing the music and... [Martin] On the dancers of the Australian Ballet? [Jennifer] On the dancers of the Australian Ballet

1:24:40

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but he, he did use a similar formula in the fact that it was gol-, Alchemy. So with gold, it was lead, it was silver, and water - was it - can't remember. but he, he did use a similar formula in the fact that it was gol-, Alchemy. So with gold, it was lead, it was silver, and water - was it - can't remember.

1:24:56

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I don't think it was water. I don't think that's right I don't think it was water. I don't think that's right

1:24:58

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I can't remember. Anyway, um, so yeah, I, so I left I can't remember. Anyway, um, so yeah, I, so I left

1:25:05

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and... [Martin] So they weren't, it wasn't an indigenous story? [Jennifer] It was not an indigenous story. But the set designer, I'm trying to - Fiona, Fiona, and... [Martin] So they weren't, it wasn't an indigenous story? [Jennifer] It was not an indigenous story. But the set designer, I'm trying to - Fiona, Fiona,

1:25:18

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and who's, she's a sculptor, indigenous sculptor, quite famous. [Martin] Foley? [Jennifer] Foley. [Martin] Foley, yeah. [Jennifer] Yeah. and who's, she's a sculptor, indigenous sculptor, quite famous. [Martin] Foley? [Jennifer] Foley. [Martin] Foley, yeah. [Jennifer] Yeah.

1:25:26

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And she did such a beaut-, it was a beautiful set. And they were like, well every section with different And she did such a beaut-, it was a beautiful set. And they were like, well every section with different

1:25:34

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but absolutely beautiful. So you'd, we, I mean that evolved because of what it was - gold, but absolutely beautiful. So you'd, we, I mean that evolved because of what it was - gold,

1:25:42

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so everybody was wearing beautiful gold dresses so everybody was wearing beautiful gold dresses

1:25:46

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and gold, like it was pretty, pretty, um, literal. But having the support of a, a company like the Australian Ballet that can actually and gold, like it was pretty, pretty, um, literal. But having the support of a, a company like the Australian Ballet that can actually

1:25:56

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build, and so that would probably have been the first show that I didn't build too. Which is hard for me to give over build, and so that would probably have been the first show that I didn't build too. Which is hard for me to give over

1:26:05

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because I, I like to, I do like to, I because I, I like to, I do like to, I

1:26:09

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I do like to sew I do like to sew

1:26:10

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and I do like to create along with the company that's building it, so. [Martin] You then did, um, in '97, ah, with, with Stephen and I do like to create along with the company that's building it, so. [Martin] You then did, um, in '97, ah, with, with Stephen

1:26:20

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"Rites", ah, on the Australian Ballet, which, ah, this went to London and New York and Washington and Paris "Rites", ah, on the Australian Ballet, which, ah, this went to London and New York and Washington and Paris

1:26:27

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and yet another version of Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, um... [Jennifer] And that was with Sydney, ah, Bangarra dancers and yet another version of Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, um... [Jennifer] And that was with Sydney, ah, Bangarra dancers

1:26:35

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and the Australian Ballet. [Martin] Together? [Jennifer] Together. [Martin] So it was playing was it not, with the kind of Ballet Russe interpretation of and the Australian Ballet. [Martin] Together? [Jennifer] Together. [Martin] So it was playing was it not, with the kind of Ballet Russe interpretation of

1:26:43

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pagan ritual in the original production? [Jennifer] Yes, I guess so, yes. pagan ritual in the original production? [Jennifer] Yes, I guess so, yes.

1:26:47

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[Martin] And so was that the sort of indigenous role..? [Jennifer] And Stephen using Djakapurra as the main kind of thread that wove through it and singing [Martin] And so was that the sort of indigenous role..? [Jennifer] And Stephen using Djakapurra as the main kind of thread that wove through it and singing

1:26:54

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and his, one of his songs in it. So he, it was a fusion of the music and, and, oh, and his, one of his songs in it. So he, it was a fusion of the music and, and, oh,

1:27:05

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and, um, yeah it was a fusion of his indigenous movement on the Australian Ballet and, um, yeah it was a fusion of his indigenous movement on the Australian Ballet

1:27:13

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and Bangarra, which was very hard for the Australian Ballet dancers to actually... [Martin] And on white ballet dancers. [Jennifer] Mm. To get down and Bangarra, which was very hard for the Australian Ballet dancers to actually... [Martin] And on white ballet dancers. [Jennifer] Mm. To get down

1:27:20

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and they did ?Wiruoka? and they da-, and, and they weren't, they weren't separated, they were all in it together, and they did ?Wiruoka? and they da-, and, and they weren't, they weren't separated, they were all in it together,

1:27:27

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so there was no separation. And it, and it was it was, it was a fabulous for so there was no separation. And it, and it was it was, it was a fabulous for

1:27:33

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Bangarra dancers to, well by this time, Bangarra had become such a, an established technical Bangarra dancers to, well by this time, Bangarra had become such a, an established technical

1:27:42

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and you know a company that actually you couldn't pick the difference between the two now. Once, a long time ago they never, and you know a company that actually you couldn't pick the difference between the two now. Once, a long time ago they never,

1:27:51

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Bangarra dancers didn't actually have the possibility to train as a four-year-old ballet dancer, like the Australian Ballet Bangarra dancers didn't actually have the possibility to train as a four-year-old ballet dancer, like the Australian Ballet

1:27:58

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does, so they were a little bit handicapped in the, in the, in the beginning, but nowadays its, I mean does, so they were a little bit handicapped in the, in the, in the beginning, but nowadays its, I mean

1:28:06

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there's an, there's a Aboriginal girl there's an, there's a Aboriginal girl

1:28:08

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with the Australian Ballet now. Like things have changed. So Bangarra dancers, I'm not saying they were bad at the beginning, with the Australian Ballet now. Like things have changed. So Bangarra dancers, I'm not saying they were bad at the beginning,

1:28:15

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but they're really good now. So they're technically and they're up with each other. On an international level but they're really good now. So they're technically and they're up with each other. On an international level

1:28:24

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they're as good as each other. they're as good as each other.

1:28:25

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[Martin] Given this fusion of, um, even in this case, of, ah, of dancers, ah, white [Martin] Given this fusion of, um, even in this case, of, ah, of dancers, ah, white

1:28:30

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and black dancing together, Indigenous movement, you know, and black dancing together, Indigenous movement, you know,

1:28:33

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how did you dress them? [Jennifer] Um, well in my own kind of contemporary fashionable way [laughs]. They were, with texture and, it was, it was all about fabrics. how did you dress them? [Jennifer] Um, well in my own kind of contemporary fashionable way [laughs]. They were, with texture and, it was, it was all about fabrics.

1:28:53

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It's all about, but it's not, you know, it's not, it's not Indigenous, it's suggestion. But even still, It's all about, but it's not, you know, it's not, it's not Indigenous, it's suggestion. But even still,

1:29:01

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even in that work, I, it was more, it was more abstract. even in that work, I, it was more, it was more abstract.

1:29:06

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It wasn't, um, it wasn't [Martin] Literal tradition. [Jennifer] white or black you know, it wasn't, yeah, it was just good shapes. [Martin] Jennifer in '99 It wasn't, um, it wasn't [Martin] Literal tradition. [Jennifer] white or black you know, it wasn't, yeah, it was just good shapes. [Martin] Jennifer in '99

1:29:18

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you did an interesting work at the Ballet and not with Stephen Page at this stage, "X" with Stanton Welch. [Jennifer] Oh yes. [Martin] Um, you did an interesting work at the Ballet and not with Stephen Page at this stage, "X" with Stanton Welch. [Jennifer] Oh yes. [Martin] Um,

1:29:25

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so I wanted to talk to you about this 'cause this is kind of so I wanted to talk to you about this 'cause this is kind of

1:29:27

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the dancers were in urban street wear. It was kind of grunge, it was tattoos, it was a sort of street wear, this sort of, um... [Jennifer] But I guess that came the dancers were in urban street wear. It was kind of grunge, it was tattoos, it was a sort of street wear, this sort of, um... [Jennifer] But I guess that came

1:29:37

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from Stanton. 'Cause it really, where, where, the, the avenue that you go down is always, it always begins with the director going from Stanton. 'Cause it really, where, where, the, the avenue that you go down is always, it always begins with the director going

1:29:47

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I want to do something modern. I want to do something modern.

1:29:48

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I wanted to, I wanted to,

1:29:50

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and the set would have been designed and he, they would have, most, most directors have a pretty good idea of a and the set would have been designed and he, they would have, most, most directors have a pretty good idea of a

1:29:57

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direction that, that they wan-, wanted to go. So I would, he would have said to me - all of our dancers are pretty, you know, direction that, that they wan-, wanted to go. So I would, he would have said to me - all of our dancers are pretty, you know,

1:30:06

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groovy young things - groovy young things -

1:30:08

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let's, lets go down that kind of look, let's, lets go down that kind of look,

1:30:10

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but I want, there was a section of others that he wanted. He wanted them looking like they were in a, a white laboratory but I want, there was a section of others that he wanted. He wanted them looking like they were in a, a white laboratory

1:30:18

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with lab coats. So like... [Martin] With crosses on them in fact, wasn't it? Is that X on them? [Jennifer] I can't remember (whispers). with lab coats. So like... [Martin] With crosses on them in fact, wasn't it? Is that X on them? [Jennifer] I can't remember (whispers).

1:30:27

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[Martin] Um. [Jennifer] (laughs) [Martin] But isn't it on of your signatures really from the Sydney Dance Company expression of modernity [Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] um, that [Martin] Um. [Jennifer] (laughs) [Martin] But isn't it on of your signatures really from the Sydney Dance Company expression of modernity [Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] um, that

1:30:35

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that's you and, and in a way that's you and, and in a way

1:30:37

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also the Bangarra works that we haven't really sort of talked about yet, also the Bangarra works that we haven't really sort of talked about yet,

1:30:41

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but that shift to urban settings, ah, in their dance theatre, away from traditional, um, land-based works, if you like, ah, but that shift to urban settings, ah, in their dance theatre, away from traditional, um, land-based works, if you like, ah,

1:30:50

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into the cities, um, into the cities, um,

1:30:52

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and into history. Um, you're, you're, you're quite skilled in that kind of area. I would have thought that as a costumer and into history. Um, you're, you're, you're quite skilled in that kind of area. I would have thought that as a costumer

1:30:59

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you're quite good at you're quite good at

1:30:60

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when people want to gather a new audience for dance like the Australian Ballet when people want to gather a new audience for dance like the Australian Ballet

1:31:05

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and do some groovy fashion, they might come to you. and do some groovy fashion, they might come to you.

1:31:08

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[Jennifer] Yeah I. I and I, I guess that that's the thing. Like every designer is different and every director is different [Jennifer] Yeah I. I and I, I guess that that's the thing. Like every designer is different and every director is different

1:31:16

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and they don't necessarily, like when if, if you're a designer or choreographer you kind of and they don't necessarily, like when if, if you're a designer or choreographer you kind of

1:31:22

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think, oh, well if that's the way I want to go down think, oh, well if that's the way I want to go down

1:31:26

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maybe I'll choose that designer. Like for Graeme, if I want to do Beauty and the Beast, or After Venice or Daphnis and Chloe maybe I'll choose that designer. Like for Graeme, if I want to do Beauty and the Beast, or After Venice or Daphnis and Chloe

1:31:34

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and I don't, I want it as a character, lu-, luscious sets and costumes, I'll ask Kristian. So you don't and I don't, I want it as a character, lu-, luscious sets and costumes, I'll ask Kristian. So you don't

1:31:44

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and that's what I say to young designers, that, that I kind of mentor and that, you know, and that's what I say to young designers, that, that I kind of mentor and that, you know,

1:31:49

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just because you don't get asked to do that particular piece, doesn't mean to say you're a bad designer. It just means that the just because you don't get asked to do that particular piece, doesn't mean to say you're a bad designer. It just means that the

1:31:55

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choreographer or the director is looking at it from, choreographer or the director is looking at it from,

1:31:58

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that's his vision and that's why he's chosen another designer to do something. that's his vision and that's why he's chosen another designer to do something.

1:32:02

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And that, well that's the way I think it happens. Because And that, well that's the way I think it happens. Because

1:32:09

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and I guess that's why Stephen and Graeme have always asked me to do those things and I guess that's why Stephen and Graeme have always asked me to do those things

1:32:14

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and same with like Neil Armfield, you know, every job I've ever done with Neil Armfield is suits. and same with like Neil Armfield, you know, every job I've ever done with Neil Armfield is suits.

1:32:18

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Because I know how to dress a man in a suit and the right way of doing a suit. [Martin] I'd like to get to the theatre. Because I know how to dress a man in a suit and the right way of doing a suit. [Martin] I'd like to get to the theatre.

1:32:25

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at the moment I'm still in the ballet. [Jenifer] Okay (laughs). [Martin] Um, and in 2004 at the moment I'm still in the ballet. [Jenifer] Okay (laughs). [Martin] Um, and in 2004

1:32:28

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you're doing a similar work with Adrian Burnett, um, Aesthetic Arrest. This time a science fiction [Jennifer] Yeah. you're doing a similar work with Adrian Burnett, um, Aesthetic Arrest. This time a science fiction [Jennifer] Yeah.

1:32:36

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[Martin] futuristic costumes. [Jennifer] And a, yeah, yes. And [Martin] futuristic costumes. [Jennifer] And a, yeah, yes. And

1:32:39

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they were all black and red. And he wanted black costumes. And the, the set was all red boxes. And the music, I can't remember, um, they were all black and red. And he wanted black costumes. And the, the set was all red boxes. And the music, I can't remember, um,

1:32:52

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but he wanted fashion. but he wanted fashion.

1:32:53

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He wanted black little skimpy little black dresses so. [Martin] Cross stitching? [Jennifer] And, and, and a lot of the cross stitching and a lot of He wanted black little skimpy little black dresses so. [Martin] Cross stitching? [Jennifer] And, and, and a lot of the cross stitching and a lot of

1:33:01

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and [Martin] Multiple splits in the costumes? [Jennifer] Yes. Lots of layers, which are a little bit reminiscent of what I do do for Bangarra now, and [Martin] Multiple splits in the costumes? [Jennifer] Yes. Lots of layers, which are a little bit reminiscent of what I do do for Bangarra now,

1:33:09

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layers and, and but the clean black and red layers and, and but the clean black and red

1:33:15

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kind of version of danceable but, but not pretty, they're not pretty, they're kind of, I guess I always do more fashion type things, kind of version of danceable but, but not pretty, they're not pretty, they're kind of, I guess I always do more fashion type things,

1:33:27

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but I try not to be fashion of the moment either because things date pretty quickly. But I'm certainly inspired but I try not to be fashion of the moment either because things date pretty quickly. But I'm certainly inspired

1:33:35

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I suppose you can't help but be inspired by what people are wearing I suppose you can't help but be inspired by what people are wearing

1:33:40

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and what fabrics are in the shops. What, 'cause... [Martin] So you've got an eye for what's happening on the streets? [Jennifer] I think and what fabrics are in the shops. What, 'cause... [Martin] So you've got an eye for what's happening on the streets? [Jennifer] I think

1:33:49

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[Martin] through the years in Sydney. [Jennifer] Yeah I think so. And everywhere. And I've been very lucky to travel non-stop for 20, 30 [Martin] through the years in Sydney. [Jennifer] Yeah I think so. And everywhere. And I've been very lucky to travel non-stop for 20, 30

1:33:58

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years with companies. [Martin] But looking at that, you know, Aesthetic Arrest 2004 Australian Ballet, you certainly years with companies. [Martin] But looking at that, you know, Aesthetic Arrest 2004 Australian Ballet, you certainly

1:34:04

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there are no tutus for you. [Jennifer] No, no. [Martin] You're not, and you don't do storybook ballets [Jennifer] No there are no tutus for you. [Jennifer] No, no. [Martin] You're not, and you don't do storybook ballets [Jennifer] No

1:34:09

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and I've never been asked. [Martin] That you're, you're... [Jennifer] But I guess that's why, because I've been kind of, I'm in that category of modern contemporary but I, not to say and I've never been asked. [Martin] That you're, you're... [Jennifer] But I guess that's why, because I've been kind of, I'm in that category of modern contemporary but I, not to say

1:34:18

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I wouldn't like to do one. I'd love to do a modern tutu but I prob-, I wouldn't do a classical one. I wouldn't like to do one. I'd love to do a modern tutu but I prob-, I wouldn't do a classical one.

1:34:24

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[Martin] But if you can have a reputation for being a part of a team that draws new audiences to an old art form, that's a good [Martin] But if you can have a reputation for being a part of a team that draws new audiences to an old art form, that's a good

1:34:30

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credit too isn't it? Um, let's talk for a bit about your credit too isn't it? Um, let's talk for a bit about your

1:34:35

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your, um, your period at the Sydney Dance Company in the, in the '90s, um, um, 'cause we, we left you then in the your, um, your period at the Sydney Dance Company in the, in the '90s, um, um, 'cause we, we left you then in the

1:34:45

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9, in, in the, in the late '80s building productions then. Um, I'd like to talk a bit about Soft 9, in, in the, in the late '80s building productions then. Um, I'd like to talk a bit about Soft

1:34:51

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Bruising. So this is in 1990, a significant show on Aspects of Love. You mentioned John Raymond 's Bruising. So this is in 1990, a significant show on Aspects of Love. You mentioned John Raymond 's

1:34:60

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lighting. [Jennifer] Lighting. [Martin] Ah, um, couples endlessly running towards [Jennifer] running, running [Martin] each other on a treadmill. [Jennifer] Yes, a red set, red, lighting. [Jennifer] Lighting. [Martin] Ah, um, couples endlessly running towards [Jennifer] running, running [Martin] each other on a treadmill. [Jennifer] Yes, a red set, red,

1:35:09

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a red backdrop. [Martin] Very androgynous figures. [Jennifer] That, yes. And, and it was pretty androgynous. a red backdrop. [Martin] Very androgynous figures. [Jennifer] That, yes. And, and it was pretty androgynous.

1:35:16

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I think that's what Graeme wanted. He didn't want anything pretty. He wanted and I mean in I think that's what Graeme wanted. He didn't want anything pretty. He wanted and I mean in

1:35:23

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and also in that, that time my life I, and also in that, that time my life I,

1:35:26

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I quite liked pleating (laughs). [Martin] Pleating, yes. [Jennifer] Pleating. So I used a, I did a lot of pleating in that show. There was a lot of, and a lot I quite liked pleating (laughs). [Martin] Pleating, yes. [Jennifer] Pleating. So I used a, I did a lot of pleating in that show. There was a lot of, and a lot

1:35:34

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and I think, I don't know how that happened, but there's a pleating company here and I think, I don't know how that happened, but there's a pleating company here

1:35:39

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and you can, you can get, they do various different types of pleating and you can, you can get, they do various different types of pleating

1:35:43

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and I think I must've thought, oh a pleated, they'd be good in that type of pleating. So then I kind of designed and I think I must've thought, oh a pleated, they'd be good in that type of pleating. So then I kind of designed

1:35:52

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the whole show around it I guess. [Martin] This was, um, there was, I mean it was a play about - dance is so often about sex the whole show around it I guess. [Martin] This was, um, there was, I mean it was a play about - dance is so often about sex

1:36:01

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and, um, Murphy's was, this is in the period and, um, Murphy's was, this is in the period

1:36:04

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when there were a lot of his works that were conspicuously about sex. Conjuring eroticism and sensuality. That was a part of when there were a lot of his works that were conspicuously about sex. Conjuring eroticism and sensuality. That was a part of

1:36:12

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your costume - pleats don't sound so sexy [laughs]. [Jennifer] No, but they were pretty skimpy and they were pretty, um, well it was all body, body, what, yeah, I mean Fornicon was all about sex your costume - pleats don't sound so sexy [laughs]. [Jennifer] No, but they were pretty skimpy and they were pretty, um, well it was all body, body, what, yeah, I mean Fornicon was all about sex

1:36:28

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but I, I kind of, I don't know. I can't, Soft Bruising well I suppose, it was. That was a, what I do remember is that it was a real race to get it on, but I, I kind of, I don't know. I can't, Soft Bruising well I suppose, it was. That was a, what I do remember is that it was a real race to get it on,

1:36:41

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that's what I remember, sitting at home sewing Janet's dress. [Martin] Janet Vernon? [Jennifer] Janet Vernon's dress that's what I remember, sitting at home sewing Janet's dress. [Martin] Janet Vernon? [Jennifer] Janet Vernon's dress

1:36:46

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the night before I, it had to be on stage (laughs). And getting really panicked about what I'm going to do. Because it really was a, a big, it was a big show the night before I, it had to be on stage (laughs). And getting really panicked about what I'm going to do. Because it really was a, a big, it was a big show

1:37:02

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[Martin] Mm. You mention Fornicon in 1995 to music by, [Jennifer] That was about sex, that was... [Martin] by Martin Armiger, yes. [Martin] Mm. You mention Fornicon in 1995 to music by, [Jennifer] That was about sex, that was... [Martin] by Martin Armiger, yes.

1:37:12

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And it had, the figure of Graeme even imprisoned as an author for doing such a subversive work a sort of And it had, the figure of Graeme even imprisoned as an author for doing such a subversive work a sort of

1:37:20

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[Jennifer] Yeah a lot of people didn't like it. [Martin] metaphorically. [Jennifer] A lot of people, they either liked it or they didn't like it. A lot of people walked out. [Jennifer] Yeah a lot of people didn't like it. [Martin] metaphorically. [Jennifer] A lot of people, they either liked it or they didn't like it. A lot of people walked out.

1:37:25

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But as a costume thing I think they were probably the best costumes I ever did for Sydney Dance Company because I had a But as a costume thing I think they were probably the best costumes I ever did for Sydney Dance Company because I had a

1:37:32

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reasonable budget, reasonable budget,

1:37:33

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we had lots of great wigs, we had, it was pretty, I mean they were great characters that you could do. And it was we had lots of great wigs, we had, it was pretty, I mean they were great characters that you could do. And it was

1:37:40

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and there was a lot of good fabric around. And I could be, and there was a lot of good fabric around. And I could be,

1:37:44

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it was a very creative kind of individual looks for various different people. And there was a lot of tattooing and it was a very creative kind of individual looks for various different people. And there was a lot of tattooing and

1:37:53

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and tattooing and wasn't, hadn't even really, people weren't even tattooed then. So, and I can make a body, good bodystocking, and tattooing and wasn't, hadn't even really, people weren't even tattooed then. So, and I can make a body, good bodystocking,

1:38:02

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so I think I did a lot of tattooing on body stockings so I think I did a lot of tattooing on body stockings

1:38:08

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and way before it even happened. [Martin] So costumes suggests, suggesting sexual extremes isn't it? [Jennifer] Mm, mm. [Martin] Any more images of that? [Jennifer] Oh, there's too many and way before it even happened. [Martin] So costumes suggests, suggesting sexual extremes isn't it? [Jennifer] Mm, mm. [Martin] Any more images of that? [Jennifer] Oh, there's too many

1:38:23

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images I can't even think where I, where to begin (laughs). [Martin] In that same year, you did a very landmark work with Berlin, images I can't even think where I, where to begin (laughs). [Martin] In that same year, you did a very landmark work with Berlin,

1:38:30

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ah, 1995, Iva Davies ah, 1995, Iva Davies

1:38:32

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and, ah, Icehouse, their iconic popular songs, Tales of Berlin on Andrew Carter's kind of set. and, ah, Icehouse, their iconic popular songs, Tales of Berlin on Andrew Carter's kind of set.

1:38:42

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How did the, that had a very clear dramaturgy and characters. [Jennifer] And it did because it was a real, and I think [Martin] a very literal sort of tell-a-story detail. How did the, that had a very clear dramaturgy and characters. [Jennifer] And it did because it was a real, and I think [Martin] a very literal sort of tell-a-story detail.

1:38:48

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[Jennifer] I think that probably was one of my first characters that Graeme said, okay well I'd like that person to look like an old circus [Jennifer] I think that probably was one of my first characters that Graeme said, okay well I'd like that person to look like an old circus

1:38:58

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performer. performer.

1:38:59

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And the, the story was like they were trapped in a, you know, they'd been bombed and they were kind of trapped in the crater under well Berlin And the, the story was like they were trapped in a, you know, they'd been bombed and they were kind of trapped in the crater under well Berlin

1:39:07

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underneath the, the, the ground. And, and there were characters. underneath the, the, the ground. And, and there were characters.

1:39:12

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There was Janet being the, the nightclub performer and the Jewish character and the little girl There was Janet being the, the nightclub performer and the Jewish character and the little girl

1:39:22

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and the, the giant. Freddie ?Chapfield? being the, and, and going back and the, the giant. Freddie ?Chapfield? being the, and, and going back

1:39:27

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and having a look at, and I, doing a lot of reference work of Bauhaus and characters - characters. [Martin] We haven't talked about and having a look at, and I, doing a lot of reference work of Bauhaus and characters - characters. [Martin] We haven't talked about

1:39:38

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that. Is, that was one production where, where you do a lot of research on historical period. that. Is, that was one production where, where you do a lot of research on historical period.

1:39:44

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[Jennifer] And it was probably one of the first, certainly for Sydney Dance Company, I didn't have to do any historical research. [Martin] Hm-mm. [Jennifer] That's, that I just didn't [Jennifer] And it was probably one of the first, certainly for Sydney Dance Company, I didn't have to do any historical research. [Martin] Hm-mm. [Jennifer] That's, that I just didn't

1:39:53

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get those jobs. That was Kristian (laughs). [Martin] What was get those jobs. That was Kristian (laughs). [Martin] What was

1:39:59

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at this stage tell us about the, the, the, um, choreographic directorial process of working with Murphy. at this stage tell us about the, the, the, um, choreographic directorial process of working with Murphy.

1:40:06

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What did, what, what kind of, you talked about what Page gives you to sort of set you off, what does Graeme Murphy give you as a sort of first brief? What did, what, what kind of, you talked about what Page gives you to sort of set you off, what does Graeme Murphy give you as a sort of first brief?

1:40:16

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[Jennifer] He was very, well Graeme, he's very, well he has his vision, but like Graeme and Stephen [Jennifer] He was very, well Graeme, he's very, well he has his vision, but like Graeme and Stephen

1:40:26

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when you sit down in a room and you, you start the production meeting when you sit down in a room and you, you start the production meeting

1:40:29

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and you start finding out about the, the work, they will kind of go, oh I'm thinking and you start finding out about the, the work, they will kind of go, oh I'm thinking

1:40:38

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you know I want a, I want this, I want this to be an Art Deco or an Art, or, you know, som-, they've, they've you know I want a, I want this, I want this to be an Art Deco or an Art, or, you know, som-, they've, they've

1:40:46

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actually got a starting point. So both, both of them are very generous in the fact that they, they talk about it actually got a starting point. So both, both of them are very generous in the fact that they, they talk about it

1:40:57

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and then I usually go away and look at, look at kind of fashion, or look at, or just look at some kind of references and then I usually go away and look at, look at kind of fashion, or look at, or just look at some kind of references

1:41:07

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or you know rust or blah, you know and then get a whole lot of references and then of, of maybe just textures or anything and then go in or you know rust or blah, you know and then get a whole lot of references and then of, of maybe just textures or anything and then go in

1:41:17

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and say, 'What about we do this section in, um, a blue colours, and say, 'What about we do this section in, um, a blue colours,

1:41:24

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or do you see that, do you think this should be bright or do you think, like if this is about the earth do you think we should or do you see that, do you think this should be bright or do you think, like if this is about the earth do you think we should

1:41:31

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you know, put cracking on it or...' Like it's always, you go away with a clear story board of a direction but you know, put cracking on it or...' Like it's always, you go away with a clear story board of a direction but

1:41:45

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and then you come back and say, 'Look what and then you come back and say, 'Look what

1:41:49

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I found.' And they go, 'Oh, yeah, yeah I like that.' (laughs). And then I'll say, 'Well I was thinking of doing this and this and this with it.' And they go, 'Oh, yeah.' So it's always been... I found.' And they go, 'Oh, yeah, yeah I like that.' (laughs). And then I'll say, 'Well I was thinking of doing this and this and this with it.' And they go, 'Oh, yeah.' So it's always been...

1:41:59

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[Martin] You worked so regularly with them both, um [Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] You worked so regularly with them both, um [Jennifer] Yeah.

1:42:01

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[Martin] Do they always like everything and what happens when they want you to throw the whole thing out and start again? [Jennifer] No, [Martin] Do they always like everything and what happens when they want you to throw the whole thing out and start again? [Jennifer] No,

1:42:05

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I never had a problem with either of them. [Martin] Never that. [Jennifer] I mean we liked the same things. I think we had this un, I never had a problem with either of them. [Martin] Never that. [Jennifer] I mean we liked the same things. I think we had this un,

1:42:12

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un, what's, you know, like, we just kind of like similar things. And especially with Stephen un, what's, you know, like, we just kind of like similar things. And especially with Stephen

1:42:21

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nowadays. Like, he can say something and I actually, I can visualise exactly what he's saying. And I know that we're on the same - nowadays. Like, he can say something and I actually, I can visualise exactly what he's saying. And I know that we're on the same -

1:42:30

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I know we are seeing the same thing. [Martin] Um, it's, with the Sydney Dance Company I know we are seeing the same thing. [Martin] Um, it's, with the Sydney Dance Company

1:42:36

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it's interesting moving from such, um, clear character drama driven stories. [Jennifer] Clean. (laughs) [Martin] Clean. Like Berlin? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] Um, to, to sort of then it's interesting moving from such, um, clear character drama driven stories. [Jennifer] Clean. (laughs) [Martin] Clean. Like Berlin? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] Um, to, to sort of then

1:42:49

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in 1992 in 1992

1:42:50

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another classic Synergy with Synergy with Michael Askill another classic Synergy with Synergy with Michael Askill

1:42:55

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and his percussionist ensemble in a completely stripped out Opera theatre, um, [Jennifer] And Brian Thompson. [Martin] A very minimalist [Jennifer] And Brian Thompson. And he and his percussionist ensemble in a completely stripped out Opera theatre, um, [Jennifer] And Brian Thompson. [Martin] A very minimalist [Jennifer] And Brian Thompson. And he

1:43:03

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and like I, I'd imagine Brian, like I've worked with Brian and like I, I'd imagine Brian, like I've worked with Brian

1:43:09

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a lot over the years. And he actually was probably one of my biggest backers in the early days a lot over the years. And he actually was probably one of my biggest backers in the early days

1:43:16

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and specially for the Olympics. Like with, I, and specially for the Olympics. Like with, I,

1:43:20

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I probably wouldn't have had, got that opportunity to do the Closing Ceremony, because he was the one that wanted me to do that. Um, I probably wouldn't have had, got that opportunity to do the Closing Ceremony, because he was the one that wanted me to do that. Um,

1:43:29

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Brian I've done a lot of drama Brian I've done a lot of drama

1:43:31

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with Brian. And I know, with Brian. And I know,

1:43:33

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and saying that, if he does, if he's invited to do a set, you kind of know the direction that you're going, because he loves clean. and saying that, if he does, if he's invited to do a set, you kind of know the direction that you're going, because he loves clean.

1:43:41

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He loves bold. He loves, he loves big letters. He, he likes, you know, like there's, it's, he loves blue, he loves red, He loves bold. He loves, he loves big letters. He, he likes, you know, like there's, it's, he loves blue, he loves red,

1:43:53

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he loves pure colours. So you, he'd never get, he'd never do a Bangarra show because he's, he, he... [Martin] It's got too much clutter? he loves pure colours. So you, he'd never get, he'd never do a Bangarra show because he's, he, he... [Martin] It's got too much clutter?

1:44:02

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[Jennifer] Yeah. It's, it's clean. So, so when, so Synergy was Synergy. It was very black and white, [Jennifer] Yeah. It's, it's clean. So, so when, so Synergy was Synergy. It was very black and white,

1:44:10

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it was very modern in his own clean way. So you're gonna do clean costumes. You're going to do, or nets or, um, yeah they were it was very modern in his own clean way. So you're gonna do clean costumes. You're going to do, or nets or, um, yeah they were

1:44:23

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like red costumes, black costumes, like they were like red costumes, black costumes, like they were

1:44:27

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but once again they, different, modern more technical fabrics than, than painterly or pretty. [Martin] What's technical? [Jennifer] Well but once again they, different, modern more technical fabrics than, than painterly or pretty. [Martin] What's technical? [Jennifer] Well

1:44:40

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fabric that has evolved, like, like the nets and the, and the, the you can get 3-D fabric fabric that has evolved, like, like the nets and the, and the, the you can get 3-D fabric

1:44:50

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now that you can look through, that's got, that, so, so as technical. Like, like when you see joggers, like now that you can look through, that's got, that, so, so as technical. Like, like when you see joggers, like

1:44:59

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like bodysuits and things now that - gym wear - like what you see now compared to what you saw five or like bodysuits and things now that - gym wear - like what you see now compared to what you saw five or

1:45:08

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or ten years ago, or ten years ago,

1:45:10

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the fabrics have evolved so that they breathe or they're, they're, they're kind of more interesting the fabrics have evolved so that they breathe or they're, they're, they're kind of more interesting

1:45:15

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or like, but they're technical because they've, they're or they 3-D fabrics. Like everything's, like things have advanced so or like, but they're technical because they've, they're or they 3-D fabrics. Like everything's, like things have advanced so

1:45:28

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much that, from silks that are woven to things that are pure plastics but also have their own interest. much that, from silks that are woven to things that are pure plastics but also have their own interest.

1:45:39

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[Martin] And an interest of artificiality compared to the very significant kind of natural fabrics which is your look in Bangarra [Jennifer] Yes, [Martin] And an interest of artificiality compared to the very significant kind of natural fabrics which is your look in Bangarra [Jennifer] Yes,

1:45:47

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yes, yes. And they're are absolutely worlds apart. [Martin] And were you doing something like that with Free Radicals 'cause that was a sort of yes, yes. And they're are absolutely worlds apart. [Martin] And were you doing something like that with Free Radicals 'cause that was a sort of

1:45:55

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similar well even more pure dance in 1996. [Jennifer] Free Radicals was absolutely pure movement, no fuss, [Martin] So three percussionists similar well even more pure dance in 1996. [Jennifer] Free Radicals was absolutely pure movement, no fuss, [Martin] So three percussionists

1:46:01

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and Askill again, live improvisation. [Jennifer] And all one colour. [Martin] The musicians blending with and Askill again, live improvisation. [Jennifer] And all one colour. [Martin] The musicians blending with

1:46:05

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the dancers. [Jennifer] And they were all yellow, gold-yellow colours really. No, there was nothing, the dancers. [Jennifer] And they were all yellow, gold-yellow colours really. No, there was nothing,

1:46:12

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there were no other colours in that show. [Martin] And so were...? [Jennifer] It was a touring show. It was a show that Graeme really wanted to see got line - line of there were no other colours in that show. [Martin] And so were...? [Jennifer] It was a touring show. It was a show that Graeme really wanted to see got line - line of

1:46:21

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body. body.

1:46:22

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Same with Piano Sonata that had been earlier. Which was all silver and it was all about lights, lights Same with Piano Sonata that had been earlier. Which was all silver and it was all about lights, lights

1:46:31

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and moving light that the dancers jumped over. And Graeme had decided, I want silver 'cause I want to use reflection, and moving light that the dancers jumped over. And Graeme had decided, I want silver 'cause I want to use reflection,

1:46:39

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but I just want to see the bodies. but I just want to see the bodies.

1:46:41

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So then I made silver bodysuits, So then I made silver bodysuits,

1:46:44

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but I, Sydney Dance Company had been on tour to Paris that year so I went shopping in all the shops in Paris but I, Sydney Dance Company had been on tour to Paris that year so I went shopping in all the shops in Paris

1:46:50

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because they were, I mean there because they were, I mean there

1:46:51

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there's so much more possibilities in Europe and New York there's so much more possibilities in Europe and New York

1:46:55

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and wherever, in America, to what we've got in Australia. [Martin] In fabric choices? and wherever, in America, to what we've got in Australia. [Martin] In fabric choices?

1:46:60

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[Jennifer] Because it's pretty limited here, so you have to kind of, here [Jennifer] Because it's pretty limited here, so you have to kind of, here

1:47:05

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you've got to, got to design fabric in the fact that the print it yourself you've got to, got to design fabric in the fact that the print it yourself

1:47:09

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and digitally print it, which you couldn't have done ten years ago, and digitally print it, which you couldn't have done ten years ago,

1:47:12

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or you can laser cut fabrics and things. So that, that, fabrics have evolved. But when we were, when we did that show, or you can laser cut fabrics and things. So that, that, fabrics have evolved. But when we were, when we did that show,

1:47:19

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Piano Sonata, and that was Carl Vine's music, um, Piano Sonata, and that was Carl Vine's music, um,

1:47:25

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he just, he wanted reflective fabric he just, he wanted reflective fabric

1:47:27

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and I went hunting in France, in, in Paris for "Lycra", you know, because they were, they were the most advanced tech-, and I went hunting in France, in, in Paris for "Lycra", you know, because they were, they were the most advanced tech-,

1:47:38

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technical fabrics at that time and you could get great Lycras there that you couldn't get in Australia. technical fabrics at that time and you could get great Lycras there that you couldn't get in Australia.

1:47:44

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[Martin] And this is..? [Jennifer] And I found the most beautiful silver Lycra that you could see ever-, you could see veins through it, like it was it moulded [Martin] And this is..? [Jennifer] And I found the most beautiful silver Lycra that you could see ever-, you could see veins through it, like it was it moulded

1:47:52

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onto the bodies, it was extraordinary fabric. [Martin] And it has this luminosity presumably, and it hugs onto the bodies, it was extraordinary fabric. [Martin] And it has this luminosity presumably, and it hugs

1:47:58

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the body so much, so Murphy gets the dan-, the dancer bodies. [Jennifer] Yeah. And that's really what the body so much, so Murphy gets the dan-, the dancer bodies. [Jennifer] Yeah. And that's really what

1:48:01

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he wanted to see body but he wanted interest and he wanted costumes that light he wanted to see body but he wanted interest and he wanted costumes that light

1:48:07

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it played with light. it played with light.

1:48:10

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Which also, Graeme, Graeme has a lot of, a lot of his choreography actually plays with light. Lot of his sets, lot of, over Which also, Graeme, Graeme has a lot of, a lot of his choreography actually plays with light. Lot of his sets, lot of, over

1:48:18

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the years, he, he, lighting is, um, something that he, he loves to use. the years, he, he, lighting is, um, something that he, he loves to use.

1:48:28

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And even with, um, Narrative of Nothing that he did for the Australian Ballet that I did recently, once again, And even with, um, Narrative of Nothing that he did for the Australian Ballet that I did recently, once again,

1:48:36

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the same brie, I want to see bodies. the same brie, I want to see bodies.

1:48:38

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I want to see bodysuits but interesting bodysuits. And Damian Cooper's doing the lighting for it and he's, I mean I want to see bodysuits but interesting bodysuits. And Damian Cooper's doing the lighting for it and he's, I mean

1:48:46

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he does flashy lights. So it was all light boxes. And I painted all the bodysuits and had them all digitally printed he does flashy lights. So it was all light boxes. And I painted all the bodysuits and had them all digitally printed

1:48:55

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and then I had gold, silver, silver, um, sections that was screen-printed onto different sections of the body so that and then I had gold, silver, silver, um, sections that was screen-printed onto different sections of the body so that

1:49:05

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different sections were illuminated. [Martin] So perhaps even more than knowing the set different sections were illuminated. [Martin] So perhaps even more than knowing the set

1:49:10

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you've got to know your lights as a costume designer and the impact of how body is read. [Jennifer] Fabrics. [Martin] And fabrics are read [Jennifer] Yeah, fabrics. you've got to know your lights as a costume designer and the impact of how body is read. [Jennifer] Fabrics. [Martin] And fabrics are read [Jennifer] Yeah, fabrics.

1:49:17

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[Martin] under lights. [Jennifer] What it does under light. Because some, some colours that are red look brown once the, if the, if the lighting designers put blue lights in the, [Martin] under lights. [Jennifer] What it does under light. Because some, some colours that are red look brown once the, if the, if the lighting designers put blue lights in the,

1:49:26

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in all the gels that light the stage becomes dull muddy brown. So you do have to have an understanding of, and in all the gels that light the stage becomes dull muddy brown. So you do have to have an understanding of, and

1:49:34

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and some lighting designers just, everything's so dark and some lighting designers just, everything's so dark

1:49:38

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and if they've got no reflection on them at all, we'll they're just lost. [Martin] Yes. [Jennifer] You may as well have not put a costume on them [laughs]. [Martin] What, in this period in the and if they've got no reflection on them at all, we'll they're just lost. [Martin] Yes. [Jennifer] You may as well have not put a costume on them [laughs]. [Martin] What, in this period in the

1:49:50

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'90's what, '90's what,

1:49:51

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what, what was your role, what, what, what do you think your role was with the Sydney Dance company in what, what was your role, what, what, what do you think your role was with the Sydney Dance company in

1:49:59

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making that contemporary dance company making that contemporary dance company

1:50:02

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a fashion plate of what Sydney was going through. It, it expressed, that company, a lot of trends about Sydney a fashion plate of what Sydney was going through. It, it expressed, that company, a lot of trends about Sydney

1:50:09

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and I'm just wondering what role you played as the costume designer, um, of, of as a mirror or fashion plate of what Sydney and I'm just wondering what role you played as the costume designer, um, of, of as a mirror or fashion plate of what Sydney

1:50:18

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and what the audience was all about? [Jennifer] Mm. And it, and it was a company that really had, it was its beginnings and what the audience was all about? [Jennifer] Mm. And it, and it was a company that really had, it was its beginnings

1:50:29

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and it worked. And it, it was an exciting time to be there. And there was, you know, a lot of sponsorship and that was, and it worked. And it, it was an exciting time to be there. And there was, you know, a lot of sponsorship and that was,

1:50:36

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and Sydney Dance company opening nights were, Sydney Dance and Sydney Dance company opening nights were, Sydney Dance

1:50:39

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Company could, could fill the Opera House stage for an 8-week season twice a year. Company could, could fill the Opera House stage for an 8-week season twice a year.

1:50:45

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Like that, that's, that's remarkable Like that, that's, that's remarkable

1:50:47

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when you think of it. Like, you couldn't do it nowadays. It was so, it was modern dance. Sydney Dance company was the new modern dance when you think of it. Like, you couldn't do it nowadays. It was so, it was modern dance. Sydney Dance company was the new modern dance

1:50:55

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company of Australia. Everybody came from Sydney Dance Company. Like ADT was there, but company of Australia. Everybody came from Sydney Dance Company. Like ADT was there, but

1:51:02

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but Sydney Dance Company was the flashy company. And it, and people, but Sydney Dance Company was the flashy company. And it, and people,

1:51:08

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there were sponsors. People threw money at it. People wanted to go to Opening nights. Like it was, it was this, this there were sponsors. People threw money at it. People wanted to go to Opening nights. Like it was, it was this, this

1:51:16

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it was on the up and had so much support and there was, so, well it was contemporary dance in Australia. Like it was it was on the up and had so much support and there was, so, well it was contemporary dance in Australia. Like it was

1:51:26

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on at the right time at the right place and had wonderful shows. [Martin] What did it express on at the right time at the right place and had wonderful shows. [Martin] What did it express

1:51:32

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and what did your costumes express about Sydney? [Jennifer] So, my costumes? Well I guess I mean I've never really thought about it because I was just doing it so I, like... and what did your costumes express about Sydney? [Jennifer] So, my costumes? Well I guess I mean I've never really thought about it because I was just doing it so I, like...

1:51:48

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[Martin] Does "flashy", um, mean empty and glib? [Jennifer] I mean, we all liked fashion, we travelled a lot, we toured a lot, so we were on the [Martin] Does "flashy", um, mean empty and glib? [Jennifer] I mean, we all liked fashion, we travelled a lot, we toured a lot, so we were on the

1:52:01

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we went to great places. We were on tour in great theatres. So we were, we were, we went to great places. We were on tour in great theatres. So we were, we were,

1:52:08

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whether we liked it or not, we were being educated all the time and I guess we were, you know, whether we liked it or not, we were being educated all the time and I guess we were, you know,

1:52:18

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we were, um, just on the up. So it was a fashion company, we were, um, just on the up. So it was a fashion company,

1:52:22

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it was a very fashionable company. it was a very fashionable company.

1:52:25

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And the dancers were all gorgeous young fashionable girls, you know, dancers. And they still are, they still are gorgeous dancers And the dancers were all gorgeous young fashionable girls, you know, dancers. And they still are, they still are gorgeous dancers

1:52:34

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but it's a different kind of company because it, it had a big audience base. I don't, I, and fash-, like but it's a different kind of company because it, it had a big audience base. I don't, I, and fash-, like

1:52:43

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like everything has a life-cycle. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] And Sydney Dance Company that was it's life cycle in my opinion of the time. My like everything has a life-cycle. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] And Sydney Dance Company that was it's life cycle in my opinion of the time. My

1:52:52

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involvement, involvement,

1:52:53

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I think we were all growing up. We were all young groovy things. I mean, like my life cycle now because I'm closer to 60 I think we were all growing up. We were all young groovy things. I mean, like my life cycle now because I'm closer to 60

1:53:07

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than in my 20s, when you work with different companies than in my 20s, when you work with different companies

1:53:11

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they probably not as interested in having an older person designing. they probably not as interested in having an older person designing.

1:53:16

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They more, they, there's a lot of young designers that need, also need to, to get a foot in the door and work their way up. They more, they, there's a lot of young designers that need, also need to, to get a foot in the door and work their way up.

1:53:24

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But I mean there's less possibilities, too. So I guess, I was there at the right time with that company. But I mean there's less possibilities, too. So I guess, I was there at the right time with that company.

1:53:37

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My evolution. [Martin] And you were lucky weren't you 'cause you were designer in residence between 1990 My evolution. [Martin] And you were lucky weren't you 'cause you were designer in residence between 1990

1:53:43

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and 1997 with the Sydney Dance Company and you had an ongoing relationship with Bangarra, um, so in a way you and 1997 with the Sydney Dance Company and you had an ongoing relationship with Bangarra, um, so in a way you

1:53:51

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were, um, you, you, you were given quite good material security as a costume designer, were, um, you, you, you were given quite good material security as a costume designer,

1:53:57

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which is a business that most people pursue as a freelancer. [Jennifer] Yeah. And the, and really, I mean, when you say I'm a resident designer at Bangarra, I'm which is a business that most people pursue as a freelancer. [Jennifer] Yeah. And the, and really, I mean, when you say I'm a resident designer at Bangarra, I'm

1:54:05

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I do their shows but I'm not employed full-time. I come, I come and go, I do their shows but I'm not employed full-time. I come, I come and go,

1:54:08

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I do, I do a show, they're on the way, I'm doing something else. I do, I do a show, they're on the way, I'm doing something else.

1:54:14

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But I was put in an extraordinary position that there is nobody that could have learnt But I was put in an extraordinary position that there is nobody that could have learnt

1:54:23

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and done more shows on-the-job. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] Because I was 'it'. And same with Bangarra, like, you know, nobody's got their foot in the door. A few people, Stephen has used and done more shows on-the-job. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] Because I was 'it'. And same with Bangarra, like, you know, nobody's got their foot in the door. A few people, Stephen has used

1:54:33

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other, other designers, but we get on so well and he, he always comes back other, other designers, but we get on so well and he, he always comes back

1:54:39

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and nobody is more surprised than I am that he keeps saying, 'Jenny do you want to do this show?' You know you think, oh you know surely, and nobody is more surprised than I am that he keeps saying, 'Jenny do you want to do this show?' You know you think, oh you know surely,

1:54:47

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surely he wants to use somebody else. surely he wants to use somebody else.

1:54:49

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[Martin] You talked about the Sydney Dance Company going through different cycles and it's amazing popularity, [Martin] You talked about the Sydney Dance Company going through different cycles and it's amazing popularity,

1:54:56

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it, it, it, despite that, it was also going through cyclically a lot of financial crises. [Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] And what happened in '97 it, it, it, despite that, it was also going through cyclically a lot of financial crises. [Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] And what happened in '97

1:55:02

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when the new, um, general manager Leigh Small launched a public appeal, um, and that's about when the new, um, general manager Leigh Small launched a public appeal, um, and that's about

1:55:08

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when you left. So why did that crisis happen? And, and how did it affect those on the creative team like you? [Jennifer] Well when you left. So why did that crisis happen? And, and how did it affect those on the creative team like you? [Jennifer] Well

1:55:15

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I didn't leave because, I, I really left because I could see this is my, I need to either go to continue to, to go I didn't leave because, I, I really left because I could see this is my, I need to either go to continue to, to go

1:55:30

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somewhere or I stay here forever. And I probably could have very easily stayed there forever somewhere or I stay here forever. And I probably could have very easily stayed there forever

1:55:36

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and strangely a couple of years later Graeme left himself. and strangely a couple of years later Graeme left himself.

1:55:39

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But there's, there wasn't the money to do the shows either. For Graeme, the shows like the Australia Council, the grants, the money, But there's, there wasn't the money to do the shows either. For Graeme, the shows like the Australia Council, the grants, the money,

1:55:49

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the, the corporate money, was going backwards. the, the corporate money, was going backwards.

1:55:51

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He, he couldn't even do shows of the same budget that he'd done five years before. He, he couldn't even do shows of the same budget that he'd done five years before.

1:55:58

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So I think possibly popularity, we all get older, audiences get younger, they want to see something new, something different. So I think possibly popularity, we all get older, audiences get younger, they want to see something new, something different.

1:56:08

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I mean it, it does evolve, things are always evolving. Um, I mean it, it does evolve, things are always evolving. Um,

1:56:13

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but I didn't leave because, I left because I just thought well this is the right time for me to, to go on but I didn't leave because, I left because I just thought well this is the right time for me to, to go on

1:56:22

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and I'd been invited to, you know Stephen's invited me to do this and so I did. [Martin] Um, given the position of the Sydney Dance Company and I'd been invited to, you know Stephen's invited me to do this and so I did. [Martin] Um, given the position of the Sydney Dance Company

1:56:32

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in Sydney culture, I suppose it's a, a natural evolution that from '98 in Sydney culture, I suppose it's a, a natural evolution that from '98

1:56:36

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then Murphy worked with the fashion designer Akiri Isigawa a lot. So it's kind of interesting that he should [Jennifer] And Sydney Dance Company is very much, then Murphy worked with the fashion designer Akiri Isigawa a lot. So it's kind of interesting that he should [Jennifer] And Sydney Dance Company is very much,

1:56:45

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they, they've always liked like fashion, they, they've always liked like fashion,

1:56:51

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they will promote, like they can promote that too. Because, because he's, he's a fashion designer, that will bring another they will promote, like they can promote that too. Because, because he's, he's a fashion designer, that will bring another

1:56:59

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audience. Like a costume designer is not a fashion designer. So it's, it is that, that will bring a new audience because oh it's, well audience. Like a costume designer is not a fashion designer. So it's, it is that, that will bring a new audience because oh it's, well

1:57:11

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why wouldn't it? [Martin] But it's a further ele-, elevation of the costume designer isn't it? Um, like in the arc of your career, why wouldn't it? [Martin] But it's a further ele-, elevation of the costume designer isn't it? Um, like in the arc of your career,

1:57:19

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um, when it's not just people who, who are sewing some costumes, it's actually designing the costumes um, when it's not just people who, who are sewing some costumes, it's actually designing the costumes

1:57:25

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and that is a significant part of, of the performing arts now, much more than it used to be. Particularly and that is a significant part of, of the performing arts now, much more than it used to be. Particularly

1:57:30

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in dance. [Jennifer] And probably my last five years have been my best years and my most significant years for people actually noticing what I've done too, in dance. [Jennifer] And probably my last five years have been my best years and my most significant years for people actually noticing what I've done too,

1:57:41

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which is a strange thing 'cause, you know, I've done thousands of the costumes over the years. which is a strange thing 'cause, you know, I've done thousands of the costumes over the years.

1:57:46

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But it's only really with Bangarra that I, that I've become more recognised. And I've won awards for Bangarra shows But it's only really with Bangarra that I, that I've become more recognised. And I've won awards for Bangarra shows

1:57:54

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where I, I, I always, Sydney Dance Company I had plenty of nominations but they never got the awards where I, I, I always, Sydney Dance Company I had plenty of nominations but they never got the awards

1:57:60

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but Bangarra for some reason. but Bangarra for some reason.

1:58:02

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But also I think I feel that I've done my best work with Bangarra because it's more com-, it's more imaginative. I can be But also I think I feel that I've done my best work with Bangarra because it's more com-, it's more imaginative. I can be

1:58:10

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more, it's absolutely unique and I can be, I, I think I push myself more to every show we do, I keep thinking, oh, more, it's absolutely unique and I can be, I, I think I push myself more to every show we do, I keep thinking, oh,

1:58:22

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you know I can do something really interesting on this one you know I can do something really interesting on this one

1:58:25

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and you try to go, keep going forward. Whereas Sydney Dance Company I used, you used to think oh well, and you try to go, keep going forward. Whereas Sydney Dance Company I used, you used to think oh well,

1:58:32

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how many, how many leotards can I make? [Martin] [Laughs]. So speaking of fashion then Jenny you went in 2001 how many, how many leotards can I make? [Martin] [Laughs]. So speaking of fashion then Jenny you went in 2001

1:58:39

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and designed Hair in a revival by Harry Miller and IMG directed by Richard Wherrett and designed Hair in a revival by Harry Miller and IMG directed by Richard Wherrett

1:58:46

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and a set by your mate Brian Thompson. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] And did you, were you remaking costumes and a set by your mate Brian Thompson. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] And did you, were you remaking costumes

1:58:52

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in the '60's. [Jennifer] No we were going to completely do it modern but it was abstracted modern in the '60's. [Jennifer] No we were going to completely do it modern but it was abstracted modern

1:58:59

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using lots of different kind of, but we had all sorts of modern crochet, modern, modern kind of, um, patterns on things, But, yeah, using lots of different kind of, but we had all sorts of modern crochet, modern, modern kind of, um, patterns on things, But, yeah,

1:59:15

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it was, it was a fashion kind of Hair. it was, it was a fashion kind of Hair.

1:59:19

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However, it never happened in the end, because they lost their, they lost their sponsorship However, it never happened in the end, because they lost their, they lost their sponsorship

1:59:24

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or the, or the people that were going to put the money into it or the, or the people that were going to put the money into it

1:59:27

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and it just didn't, or it just didn't sell pre-sale tickets and they just decided and it just didn't, or it just didn't sell pre-sale tickets and they just decided

1:59:33

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we'll pull the pin before it, before we've spent all the money. I just, I just don't think it was going to work - wrong time at the we'll pull the pin before it, before we've spent all the money. I just, I just don't think it was going to work - wrong time at the

1:59:39

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wrong place. And that would have been the last show that Richard Wherret ever did. And it didn't happen. wrong place. And that would have been the last show that Richard Wherret ever did. And it didn't happen.

1:59:44

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[Martin] 'Cause he died soon after. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] 'Cause he died soon after. [Jennifer] Mm.

1:59:45

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[Martin] The idea of doing Hair out of the '60s is a little problematic, for the 21st century. [Jennifer] I mean it was '60s [Martin] The idea of doing Hair out of the '60s is a little problematic, for the 21st century. [Jennifer] I mean it was '60s

1:59:53

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modern. Like it, it looked '60's, in the crocheting but all in the modern, a modern take. modern. Like it, it looked '60's, in the crocheting but all in the modern, a modern take.

2:00:03

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But it was still, it was still hippies, hippies, but groovy hippies [laughter]. [Martin] I think I've got the idea. Um, in 2003 But it was still, it was still hippies, hippies, but groovy hippies [laughter]. [Martin] I think I've got the idea. Um, in 2003

2:00:14

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you then went and did as a jobbing, um, costume designer, you produced all the bodysuits you then went and did as a jobbing, um, costume designer, you produced all the bodysuits

2:00:20

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and stretch for the Lion King. [Jennifer] I, well yes but... and stretch for the Lion King. [Jennifer] I, well yes but...

2:00:23

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[Martin] Which is kind of an interesting use of your experience [Jennifer] And I still do, I mean I still [Martin] in these kinds of fabrics [Martin] Which is kind of an interesting use of your experience [Jennifer] And I still do, I mean I still [Martin] in these kinds of fabrics

2:00:28

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[Jennifer] I still do a lot on the side of making, making, you know, bodysuits because I can make the best bodysuits. Well if I do say so myself, [Jennifer] I still do a lot on the side of making, making, you know, bodysuits because I can make the best bodysuits. Well if I do say so myself,

2:00:38

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but I made them for a long time, so I can actually almost do them with my eyes shut. So which is why the, I got the job with my friend Kim who but I made them for a long time, so I can actually almost do them with my eyes shut. So which is why the, I got the job with my friend Kim who

2:00:48

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designed the Matrix and like, you know, who's going to cut the costume, costumes for an action movie designed the Matrix and like, you know, who's going to cut the costume, costumes for an action movie

2:00:55

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or and say with Mission Impossible because I cut dance costumes. If you can cut dance costumes, or and say with Mission Impossible because I cut dance costumes. If you can cut dance costumes,

2:01:02

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you can make, you can make action costumes. So that's, so any you can make, you can make action costumes. So that's, so any

2:01:07

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and I do, I do all the stretch work for the Australia Opera, Opera because I can. [Martin] What's the stretch work and I do, I do all the stretch work for the Australia Opera, Opera because I can. [Martin] What's the stretch work

2:01:12

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for the Australian Opera for example? [Jennifer] Stretch, stretchwear, like all their undergarments and their leotards and their bodysuits. I for the Australian Opera for example? [Jennifer] Stretch, stretchwear, like all their undergarments and their leotards and their bodysuits. I

2:01:18

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so I still physically make them myself because, because I can. And they so I still physically make them myself because, because I can. And they

2:01:24

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and I [Martin] Can't they just buy it in a shop or something that fits? [Jennifer] No because, 'cause a designer will design a special bodysuit and it might need to and I [Martin] Can't they just buy it in a shop or something that fits? [Jennifer] No because, 'cause a designer will design a special bodysuit and it might need to

2:01:31

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be, you can't buy something for a size 22 body. [laughs] Or, or be, you can't buy something for a size 22 body. [laughs] Or, or

2:01:36

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you know like there's, there's always, or little dance-, little kids that are, that are all meant to look like they're all whitewashed and you know like there's, there's always, or little dance-, little kids that are, that are all meant to look like they're all whitewashed and

2:01:44

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they need bodysuits, who do they call - me! [laughs]. [Martin] That's a very useful line I imagine, of business. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] Um, they need bodysuits, who do they call - me! [laughs]. [Martin] That's a very useful line I imagine, of business. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] Um,

2:01:54

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you, um, you were in 2004 you, um, you were in 2004

2:01:57

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you costumed the world premiere in Sydney of Dirty Dancing. [Jennifer] Hm-mm. [Martin] Ah, which still continues you costumed the world premiere in Sydney of Dirty Dancing. [Jennifer] Hm-mm. [Martin] Ah, which still continues

2:02:03

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it's still, as we speak, touring internationally. Ah, based on the film it's still, as we speak, touring internationally. Ah, based on the film

2:02:08

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of course with Patrick Swayze made in 1987, set in a holiday camp in '63, um, [Jennifer] So that really has of course with Patrick Swayze made in 1987, set in a holiday camp in '63, um, [Jennifer] So that really has

2:02:18

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allowed me to survive in this industry working on a musical like that. Because working in the Arts you don't earn allowed me to survive in this industry working on a musical like that. Because working in the Arts you don't earn

2:02:27

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you might be very good at your job, but it doesn't earn you a lot of money. And it really doesn't. Which you might be very good at your job, but it doesn't earn you a lot of money. And it really doesn't. Which

2:02:33

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is why I do do jobs on the side. is why I do do jobs on the side.

2:02:37

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I might be at the top of my profession. Um, Dirty Dancing was a remarkable show for, for some-, for somebody like me to get. I might be at the top of my profession. Um, Dirty Dancing was a remarkable show for, for some-, for somebody like me to get.

2:02:48

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Ah, Eleanor Bergstein Ah, Eleanor Bergstein

2:02:49

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who was the [Martin] Creator and writer. [Jennifer] creator of Dirty Dancing, the movie. She, she saw the Bangarra show Rites of Spring in London, I mean, sorry in New York who was the [Martin] Creator and writer. [Jennifer] creator of Dirty Dancing, the movie. She, she saw the Bangarra show Rites of Spring in London, I mean, sorry in New York

2:03:03

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and Kevin Jacobsen, and Kevin Jacobsen,

2:03:05

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the entertainment entrepreneur in Australia who had persuaded her to do the show in Sydney as a commercial show, musical. Um, the entertainment entrepreneur in Australia who had persuaded her to do the show in Sydney as a commercial show, musical. Um,

2:03:18

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and I guess it was probably because if it flops in Australia, nobody's ever going to know. They'd do it once, they'd do it here and I guess it was probably because if it flops in Australia, nobody's ever going to know. They'd do it once, they'd do it here

2:03:26

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and then they can redo it somewhere else better. Anyway, um, Eleanor came to Australia to do it and she invited me to come and then they can redo it somewhere else better. Anyway, um, Eleanor came to Australia to do it and she invited me to come

2:03:38

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and have a look at, me to show her my designs. And she, I already had a job. She, like she loved me. [Martin] What did she like and have a look at, me to show her my designs. And she, I already had a job. She, like she loved me. [Martin] What did she like

2:03:49

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so much about Rites of Spring that Stephen Page [Jennifer] I don't know. I have no idea so much about Rites of Spring that Stephen Page [Jennifer] I don't know. I have no idea

2:03:53

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but she just liked the design but she just liked the design

2:03:56

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and she was in Australia and she's thinking, I want a dance costume designer, somebody that can design dance costumes. and she was in Australia and she's thinking, I want a dance costume designer, somebody that can design dance costumes.

2:04:05

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And she liked me, she liked me and, I, like Jacobsen's weren't really, And she liked me, she liked me and, I, like Jacobsen's weren't really,

2:04:14

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they didn't want me to do it because they'd never heard of me. I'm, they didn't want me to do it because they'd never heard of me. I'm,

2:04:17

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I work in the, the subsidised Arts, I don't work in the commercial world. And she say, 'No, I'm having I work in the, the subsidised Arts, I don't work in the commercial world. And she say, 'No, I'm having

2:04:23

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her.' So we got along really, really well. And Dirty Dancing did incredibly well commercially in Australia, her.' So we got along really, really well. And Dirty Dancing did incredibly well commercially in Australia,

2:04:32

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so it was on in Australia for probably a year. And then it was sold on to Stage Holdings in Europe, who then so it was on in Australia for probably a year. And then it was sold on to Stage Holdings in Europe, who then

2:04:42

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the first one was Hamburg so the first one was Hamburg so

2:04:45

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I spent four months in Hamburg. We built it out of London, well no, I, between London and Hamburg I was away. We built it I spent four months in Hamburg. We built it out of London, well no, I, between London and Hamburg I was away. We built it

2:04:54

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out of London, ah, then, and it evolved out of London, ah, then, and it evolved

2:04:57

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so it became a bigger show with a bigger budget. 'Cause the show in Australia was, I think I had a so it became a bigger show with a bigger budget. 'Cause the show in Australia was, I think I had a

2:05:03

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$140,000 for all $140,000 for all

2:05:04

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the costumes and the wigs, which is, doesn't buy much the costumes and the wigs, which is, doesn't buy much

2:05:07

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when you have a cast of 45 people. So the show that we did in Aus-, in Europe, um, there was only myself when you have a cast of 45 people. So the show that we did in Aus-, in Europe, um, there was only myself

2:05:17

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and Kate Champion the chor-, the choreographer and the sound designer. and Kate Champion the chor-, the choreographer and the sound designer.

2:05:24

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I think we were the only three remaining on the show. Everybody was, there was a new set designer London, I think we were the only three remaining on the show. Everybody was, there was a new set designer London,

2:05:31

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set designer London, lighting designer, London director. Um, so it evolved. So we did Hamburg we did it, then we did it in London set designer London, lighting designer, London director. Um, so it evolved. So we did Hamburg we did it, then we did it in London

2:05:41

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and it ran for nine years in London on the West End. and it ran for nine years in London on the West End.

2:05:44

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It was, it broke all box office records of any show ever, pre-sales, for any show It was, it broke all box office records of any show ever, pre-sales, for any show

2:05:50

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and still to this day of any show in the, the West End. So, it's, so now we're, what, 2000, so it's been running 12- and still to this day of any show in the, the West End. So, it's, so now we're, what, 2000, so it's been running 12-

2:06:00

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13 years round the world. Everywhere - I've built it in Toronto, Chicago, um, now I actually, I built it in Berlin. 13 years round the world. Everywhere - I've built it in Toronto, Chicago, um, now I actually, I built it in Berlin.

2:06:10

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I actually don't even need to build it anymore because it's, there's a supervisor in the US, in New York, there's a I actually don't even need to build it anymore because it's, there's a supervisor in the US, in New York, there's a

2:06:16

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supervisor in London supervisor in London

2:06:17

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and they, they create it now. So it's standardised like Lion King like all the other commercial shows and they, they create it now. So it's standardised like Lion King like all the other commercial shows

2:06:25

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and it just continues. And it's... [Martin] So how did the costumes evolve and, and particularly and it just continues. And it's... [Martin] So how did the costumes evolve and, and particularly

2:06:31

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when they get to a stage where, as you say, you don't need to build it any more, and they stop evolving? [Jennifer] So it evolved when they get to a stage where, as you say, you don't need to build it any more, and they stop evolving? [Jennifer] So it evolved

2:06:37

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once we got the London show on and, the Ham-, well we did that Hamburg show and the London show once we got the London show on and, the Ham-, well we did that Hamburg show and the London show

2:06:45

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and they became, well we had enough money to actually print fabrics and they became, well we had enough money to actually print fabrics

2:06:51

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and we had, like, we created the characters the way they should have been created, and we had, like, we created the characters the way they should have been created,

2:06:55

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the way Eleanor wanted them created. So and, it was, my budget was probably 800,000 the way Eleanor wanted them created. So and, it was, my budget was probably 800,000

2:07:02

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so it was a, it was a ... [Martin] You completely re-costumed it more extravagantly. [Jennifer] We completely redesigned it and it, so it was a, it was a ... [Martin] You completely re-costumed it more extravagantly. [Jennifer] We completely redesigned it and it,

2:07:08

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and it still, well I mean there, and it's on touring round the US now. It's never done Broadway. and it still, well I mean there, and it's on touring round the US now. It's never done Broadway.

2:07:19

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I doubt whether it ever will because Eleanor's, she doesn't I doubt whether it ever will because Eleanor's, she doesn't

2:07:22

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she's very smart, she doesn't want to put a show that might get bad reviews, and then can't go anywhere. she's very smart, she doesn't want to put a show that might get bad reviews, and then can't go anywhere.

2:07:27

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So she'll, she'll tour it all around America for ever and ever, amen, So she'll, she'll tour it all around America for ever and ever, amen,

2:07:30

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but it'll never go to Broadway because she's smart. But it did, but the, the English they I loved it, but it'll never go to Broadway because she's smart. But it did, but the, the English they I loved it,

2:07:38

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like it's, it's still running in the UK, not in, not in the West End but it's touring just, just, keep, it's gone everywhere. like it's, it's still running in the UK, not in, not in the West End but it's touring just, just, keep, it's gone everywhere.

2:07:44

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It's gone absolutely everywhere.[Martin] So, um... [Jennifer] I've seen it in Dutch, I've seen it in German, and I've seen it in It's gone absolutely everywhere.[Martin] So, um... [Jennifer] I've seen it in Dutch, I've seen it in German, and I've seen it in

2:07:52

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and, it, but, unfortunately it's presented, they sell it on now and this is the problem with commercial shows, they sell it on and, it, but, unfortunately it's presented, they sell it on now and this is the problem with commercial shows, they sell it on

2:08:00

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and they just don't spend the money to make it look good. And in actual fact it came back to Australia a couple of years ago, and they just don't spend the money to make it look good. And in actual fact it came back to Australia a couple of years ago,

2:08:07

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I didn't recognise any of the costumes. Like and but I wasn't allowed in. I wasn't in, I wasn't, that was a John Frost production I didn't recognise any of the costumes. Like and but I wasn't allowed in. I wasn't in, I wasn't, that was a John Frost production

2:08:14

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and it, I wasn't even allowed to on, to even, I, in fact I didn't even get invited to opening night. So that's how... [Martin] What was your relationship to the product, and it, I wasn't even allowed to on, to even, I, in fact I didn't even get invited to opening night. So that's how... [Martin] What was your relationship to the product,

2:08:24

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was it meant to be your costumes? was it meant to be your costumes?

2:08:25

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[Jennifer] Yes it was, I'm credited, I'm credited for it. [Martin] Even if it came with a new producer? [Jennifer] I'm credited. I get paid royalties. [Jennifer] Yes it was, I'm credited, I'm credited for it. [Martin] Even if it came with a new producer? [Jennifer] I'm credited. I get paid royalties.

2:08:31

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But, but actually the show that came to Australia looked like rubbish. [Martin] You were very, um, it's a very unusual situation that you're in a But, but actually the show that came to Australia looked like rubbish. [Martin] You were very, um, it's a very unusual situation that you're in a

2:08:41

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creative team and at least you and the sound person creative team and at least you and the sound person

2:08:44

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and someone else you said was actually taken on for the further productions. [Jennifer] Yes we were the only Australians remaining on the show. and someone else you said was actually taken on for the further productions. [Jennifer] Yes we were the only Australians remaining on the show.

2:08:50

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And now there's only me. Kate's actually not on, on it it any more. 'Cause they, they... And now there's only me. Kate's actually not on, on it it any more. 'Cause they, they...

2:08:55

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[Martin] And you've fallen off even from the Australian production that's come here, bec-, even though you're credited, but you're not, it's not your work anymore. [Martin] And you've fallen off even from the Australian production that's come here, bec-, even though you're credited, but you're not, it's not your work anymore.

2:09:02

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[Jennifer] Unfortunately some producers don't respect any involvement of any creatives. It's all about money. [Jennifer] Unfortunately some producers don't respect any involvement of any creatives. It's all about money.

2:09:11

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[Martin] Why... [Jennifer] Even though you can offer [Martin] Why... [Jennifer] Even though you can offer

2:09:13

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and say I don't want to be paid for anything, I just want it to look good. Because they bought a couple of old shows. they bought a show that had toured and say I don't want to be paid for anything, I just want it to look good. Because they bought a couple of old shows. they bought a show that had toured

2:09:19

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South Africa, South Africa,

2:09:20

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they bought one that, that had gone somewhere else, then they bought the, they bought the show and they don't [Martin] And the costumes. [Jennifer] and they don't... they bought one that, that had gone somewhere else, then they bought the, they bought the show and they don't [Martin] And the costumes. [Jennifer] and they don't...

2:09:27

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[Martin] And they just refit them on new actors. [Jennifer] But when shows are kind of, when they've gone on tour for years and years [Martin] And they just refit them on new actors. [Jennifer] But when shows are kind of, when they've gone on tour for years and years

2:09:35

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and then they've been replaced by somebody, oh that person's a new person, oh, and then they've been replaced by somebody, oh that person's a new person, oh,

2:09:41

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we need to get a costume that looks like that, and it's like a Chinese whisper we need to get a costume that looks like that, and it's like a Chinese whisper

2:09:44

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and it becomes by the, by 4 or 5 years later there's not a single original costume. Not one of them looks like and it becomes by the, by 4 or 5 years later there's not a single original costume. Not one of them looks like

2:09:51

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anything like what it was. Mind boggling. anything like what it was. Mind boggling.

2:09:59

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[Martin] And let's talk about designing for theatre which you began doing, um, this century, um, after ballet and dance [Martin] And let's talk about designing for theatre which you began doing, um, this century, um, after ballet and dance

2:10:05

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and opera. What, what, what struck you as the, um, thinking particularly of, of starting with say Belvoir Street, and opera. What, what, what struck you as the, um, thinking particularly of, of starting with say Belvoir Street,

2:10:13

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the Belvoir Street productions, what was the, what was the difference designing for theatre? [Jennifer] It's a lot easier. the Belvoir Street productions, what was the, what was the difference designing for theatre? [Jennifer] It's a lot easier.

2:10:18

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It's so much easier because they don't have to move. They, they... [Martin] Or roll around the floor It's so much easier because they don't have to move. They, they... [Martin] Or roll around the floor

2:10:24

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[Jennifer] But they, no, and, and they barely even get them washed! [laughs] And, but once again [Jennifer] But they, no, and, and they barely even get them washed! [laughs] And, but once again

2:10:33

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you have to give them a character. Working with dancers is so much easier because they actually just do what they're told you have to give them a character. Working with dancers is so much easier because they actually just do what they're told

2:10:39

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and they, they wear it and they, they wear it

2:10:40

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and they're happy. And they're absolutely happy as long as they're comfortable. But when you're working with actors, they, they actually like, and they're happy. And they're absolutely happy as long as they're comfortable. But when you're working with actors, they, they actually like,

2:10:51

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they like you to support them and give them you know, like, do you think blah blah would wear this? And you think well I don't know. Like it's a fiction, like it's a, it's a character. they like you to support them and give them you know, like, do you think blah blah would wear this? And you think well I don't know. Like it's a fiction, like it's a, it's a character.

2:11:04

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It's, oh, you kinda, you have to, you have to spoon feed actors in many ways and give them, make them feel like what they meant what It's, oh, you kinda, you have to, you have to spoon feed actors in many ways and give them, make them feel like what they meant what

2:11:16

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they need, they're more need, like they, they need props. they need, they're more need, like they, they need props.

2:11:21

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They need... [Martin] What's interesting in your productions at, um, Belvoir Street from, in Sydney from 2002 They need... [Martin] What's interesting in your productions at, um, Belvoir Street from, in Sydney from 2002

2:11:30

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beginning with My Zinc Bed, you, you did work with Neil Armfield so you built another collaborative relationship beginning with My Zinc Bed, you, you did work with Neil Armfield so you built another collaborative relationship

2:11:37

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in this case with the theatre director in this case with the theatre director

2:11:39

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Armfield. But on big urban social issue plays, by David Hare, um, which sort of at first sight seems a little odd [Jennifer] Odd, doesn't it, Armfield. But on big urban social issue plays, by David Hare, um, which sort of at first sight seems a little odd [Jennifer] Odd, doesn't it,

2:11:48

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but for some reason, Neil gives me all the jobs that are suits or, or fashion but for some reason, Neil gives me all the jobs that are suits or, or fashion

2:11:59

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or like Keating the Musical, it was all suits but it had a little bit of you know, an odd, the odd costume in there that needed a character. or like Keating the Musical, it was all suits but it had a little bit of you know, an odd, the odd costume in there that needed a character.

2:12:09

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But I mean,I don't know I, I But I mean,I don't know I, I

2:12:14

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I can, I just understand how you fit a suit and how a suit's worn and how, where the right length I can, I just understand how you fit a suit and how a suit's worn and how, where the right length

2:12:20

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and all that kind of thing. and all that kind of thing.

2:12:21

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I don't, I taught myself that. But, but, um... [Martin] So you did, um, My Zinc Bed, Stuff Happens, Gethsemane by David Hare I don't, I taught myself that. But, but, um... [Martin] So you did, um, My Zinc Bed, Stuff Happens, Gethsemane by David Hare

2:12:33

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and a very moving play the Laramie Project about a gay murder in Wyoming. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] Um, all gritty, contemporary. [Jennifer] All different and and a very moving play the Laramie Project about a gay murder in Wyoming. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] Um, all gritty, contemporary. [Jennifer] All different and

2:12:41

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[Martin] But all contemporary [Jennifer] Yeah, all contemporary. [Martin] Mm. Um, how did you approach costuming - Keating also at Belvoir Street [Martin] But all contemporary [Jennifer] Yeah, all contemporary. [Martin] Mm. Um, how did you approach costuming - Keating also at Belvoir Street

2:12:49

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the musical with all those, you had characters you, demanding actors too perhaps, but also recognisable characters. [Jennifer] Mm. the musical with all those, you had characters you, demanding actors too perhaps, but also recognisable characters. [Jennifer] Mm.

2:12:57

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[Martin] Real, real characters. [Jennifer] Well that and that is, ah, researching. The same with Stuff Happens, of actually getting the right, because they, they really weren't characters, [Martin] Real, real characters. [Jennifer] Well that and that is, ah, researching. The same with Stuff Happens, of actually getting the right, because they, they really weren't characters,

2:13:05

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like they were men in suits. like they were men in suits.

2:13:06

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But giving, giving them the right glasses, giving them the right, the right, the right things that, But giving, giving them the right glasses, giving them the right, the right, the right things that,

2:13:13

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that represent that person in real life. [Martin] Stuff Happens being about the corporate world in America, particularly that represent that person in real life. [Martin] Stuff Happens being about the corporate world in America, particularly

2:13:18

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and in Britain, ah, during the GFC. [Jennifer] What a fantastic play is, David Hare's play is just phenomenal. [Martin] Fantastic, mm. [Jennifer] And they resonate in your brain and in Britain, ah, during the GFC. [Jennifer] What a fantastic play is, David Hare's play is just phenomenal. [Martin] Fantastic, mm. [Jennifer] And they resonate in your brain

2:13:27

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when, the more you sit in rehearsal, and you hear them being spoken over and over again, when, the more you sit in rehearsal, and you hear them being spoken over and over again,

2:13:34

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they've, its the intelligence of the, of the thinking, of the writing, it's really remarkable. [Martin] And the, the social issues made flesh they've, its the intelligence of the, of the thinking, of the writing, it's really remarkable. [Martin] And the, the social issues made flesh

2:13:41

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and blood into real characters. [Jennifer] Mm, mm. [Martin] Which must have worked for you as an inspiration to how you costume those characters. [Jennifer] Mm, oh, definitely, definitely. and blood into real characters. [Jennifer] Mm, mm. [Martin] Which must have worked for you as an inspiration to how you costume those characters. [Jennifer] Mm, oh, definitely, definitely.

2:13:49

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And research of what they physically really look like too. [Martin] Yeah. Um, and in the case of, um, well it's pretty memorable isn't it, like And research of what they physically really look like too. [Martin] Yeah. Um, and in the case of, um, well it's pretty memorable isn't it, like

2:13:58

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the case of Keating, it's Keating and Howard and Hawke and Downer the case of Keating, it's Keating and Howard and Hawke and Downer

2:14:02

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and, ah... [Jennifer] Real people. Costuming real people in, in... [Martin] Exactly as they looked or with..? [Jennifer] Hope, hopefully, as close as one can make them feel and, ah... [Jennifer] Real people. Costuming real people in, in... [Martin] Exactly as they looked or with..? [Jennifer] Hope, hopefully, as close as one can make them feel

2:14:12

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that they are that character. [Martin] Right. [Jennifer] Giving them, well, the right glasses, good snappy suits, good, you know, like it's... that they are that character. [Martin] Right. [Jennifer] Giving them, well, the right glasses, good snappy suits, good, you know, like it's...

2:14:20

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[Martin] Um, at the STC, The Sydney Theatre Company, in 2000, you did, um, Soulmates [Martin] Um, at the STC, The Sydney Theatre Company, in 2000, you did, um, Soulmates

2:14:27

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and then earlier, um, Up for Grabs, that was your first production with Gale Edwards. [Jennifer] First one I did was Cyrano de Bergerac and then earlier, um, Up for Grabs, that was your first production with Gale Edwards. [Jennifer] First one I did was Cyrano de Bergerac

2:14:35

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which was... [Martin] Marian Potts director. [Jennifer] Yeah, but, it, actu-, which was... [Martin] Marian Potts director. [Jennifer] Yeah, but, it, actu-,

2:14:41

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I mean it was fashion but that was probably the most period thing I've ever done. Because it was, it, it, I mean it was fashion but that was probably the most period thing I've ever done. Because it was, it, it,

2:14:49

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I suppose it was a suggestion of fashion of period. But I guess, it was period, but, I suppose it was a suggestion of fashion of period. But I guess, it was period, but,

2:14:57

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but whatever I do it always ends up looking kind, kind of contemporary - can't help it. [Martin] Did you do your homework but whatever I do it always ends up looking kind, kind of contemporary - can't help it. [Martin] Did you do your homework

2:15:05

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then on France in the 16th century? [Jennifer] Yes, oh, I did, I did and even though you kinda, and but also you have a trademark because even what you do then on France in the 16th century? [Jennifer] Yes, oh, I did, I did and even though you kinda, and but also you have a trademark because even what you do

2:15:14

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and if you keep doing it over and over again and if you keep doing it over and over again

2:15:15

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you kinda think, doesn't that look like something I've already done? And you can't even help it. You, like you've done it and then you look you think, oh, it actually does. [laughs]. Choreographers you kinda think, doesn't that look like something I've already done? And you can't even help it. You, like you've done it and then you look you think, oh, it actually does. [laughs]. Choreographers

2:15:26

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probably have the same problem [laughs]. probably have the same problem [laughs].

2:15:29

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[Martin] What was your connection with, ah, with Gale Edwards while you were working with her in those first few productions [Martin] What was your connection with, ah, with Gale Edwards while you were working with her in those first few productions

2:15:35

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with the Sydney Theatre Company? [Jennifer] I think I was just put together with her, really. I didn't know Gale at all. with the Sydney Theatre Company? [Jennifer] I think I was just put together with her, really. I didn't know Gale at all.

2:15:43

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I think she, I think she just needed another designer. [Martin] In, ah, 2010 I think she, I think she just needed another designer. [Martin] In, ah, 2010

2:15:50

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you did Our Town with Ian Sinclair. [Jennifer] Mm, mm. And I'd never, I didn't know Ian either. So I was you did Our Town with Ian Sinclair. [Jennifer] Mm, mm. And I'd never, I didn't know Ian either. So I was

2:15:57

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and it is much harder working with somebody you don't know. [Martin] So who's making this marriage between you, ah, and it is much harder working with somebody you don't know. [Martin] So who's making this marriage between you, ah,

2:16:02

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and ah, ah, who's deciding on you? [Jennifer] The theatre companies, the theatre companies and their casting agents. and ah, ah, who's deciding on you? [Jennifer] The theatre companies, the theatre companies and their casting agents.

2:16:07

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So they've got a director that doesn't have a preferred costume designer and, and I guess they've gone, well So they've got a director that doesn't have a preferred costume designer and, and I guess they've gone, well

2:16:15

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this is a list of people. Why don't you look at these people's work and that's how you get that, this is a list of people. Why don't you look at these people's work and that's how you get that,

2:16:21

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that kind of job. 'Cause I, I mean I did know Neil. Neil had always seen Sydney Dance Company and he'd seen Bangarra. But Ian, I had, that kind of job. 'Cause I, I mean I did know Neil. Neil had always seen Sydney Dance Company and he'd seen Bangarra. But Ian, I had,

2:16:31

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I didn't know his work. He didn't, I, I, he saw my portfolio. But rarely do I, I didn't know his work. He didn't, I, I, he saw my portfolio. But rarely do I,

2:16:38

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I get jobs like that, that people, but then saying that, I did a show last year with Eamon Flack and I'd I get jobs like that, that people, but then saying that, I did a show last year with Eamon Flack and I'd

2:16:45

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and I'd never worked with him either, and I'd never worked with him either,

2:16:46

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but there's new... [Martin] The Artistic Director of Belvoir Street? [Jennifer] Yeah, there's a, I mean, there's new people that come. I, I love working with anybody if they'll but there's new... [Martin] The Artistic Director of Belvoir Street? [Jennifer] Yeah, there's a, I mean, there's new people that come. I, I love working with anybody if they'll

2:16:54

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have me. It's just they have their own people that they work with. have me. It's just they have their own people that they work with.

2:16:58

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But you can't, you need to keep working, you know, working with other people because otherwise you just, you, you need to keep But you can't, you need to keep working, you know, working with other people because otherwise you just, you, you need to keep

2:17:08

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progressing, or, or... [Martin] Well you, yes you need the job and you need the stimulation, don't you? [Jennifer] Mm, mm. [Martin] Um, with Our Town you had progressing, or, or... [Martin] Well you, yes you need the job and you need the stimulation, don't you? [Jennifer] Mm, mm. [Martin] Um, with Our Town you had

2:17:13

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an interesting challenge of interpreting a, an early 20th century American classic. an interesting challenge of interpreting a, an early 20th century American classic.

2:17:19

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[Jennifer] And we did it contemporary. So I mean, it's just, I guess Ian looked at my work and said, well I want to set it in, [Jennifer] And we did it contemporary. So I mean, it's just, I guess Ian looked at my work and said, well I want to set it in,

2:17:28

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I want them contemporary, so that's where that would have come from. I want them contemporary, so that's where that would have come from.

2:17:32

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[Martin] And you ... [Jennifer] And lots of drawings and lots of chatting, a lot of chatting. [Martin] Yeah, yeah. Um, and then you, um, worked at a little, [Martin] And you ... [Jennifer] And lots of drawings and lots of chatting, a lot of chatting. [Martin] Yeah, yeah. Um, and then you, um, worked at a little,

2:17:42

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not much, with Opera Australia, um... [Jennifer] I've done, mm. I've done Romeo and Juliet with Stuart Maunder and now I'm... [Martin] So with that's not much, with Opera Australia, um... [Jennifer] I've done, mm. I've done Romeo and Juliet with Stuart Maunder and now I'm... [Martin] So with that's

2:17:51

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went to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. Um, how did you approach this opera and, and went to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. Um, how did you approach this opera and, and

2:17:57

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and this well-known classic in 2002. [Jennifer] Ah, beauty really - beauty. Beauty and, and this well-known classic in 2002. [Jennifer] Ah, beauty really - beauty. Beauty and,

2:18:06

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and that, that was a lot of reference of the era because he wanted it in that Belle Epoque France era. But... [Martin] Belle Epoque France, and that, that was a lot of reference of the era because he wanted it in that Belle Epoque France era. But... [Martin] Belle Epoque France,

2:18:18

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Romeo and Juliet? [Jennifer] Mm. Yeah. That's the way he wanted it, and that just before Art Deco, Romeo and Juliet? [Jennifer] Mm. Yeah. That's the way he wanted it, and that just before Art Deco,

2:18:24

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so he really, um, I did a lot of, a lot of reference looking at those things and drawing and, so he really, um, I did a lot of, a lot of reference looking at those things and drawing and,

2:18:34

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but I mean I didn't know Stuart, so I'm but I mean I didn't know Stuart, so I'm

2:18:36

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kind of, you're kind of showing a lot of references, hoping that they'll say, 'Yes this is the way we want to go.' That's it is, it's not easy working with kind of, you're kind of showing a lot of references, hoping that they'll say, 'Yes this is the way we want to go.' That's it is, it's not easy working with

2:18:44

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people you don't know. 'Cause it, 'cause you, you do flounder a bit because you think, well am I doing it - do they like me, people you don't know. 'Cause it, 'cause you, you do flounder a bit because you think, well am I doing it - do they like me,

2:18:53

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do they like what I'm doing. do they like what I'm doing.

2:18:54

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And, and it's hard. It's much easier, it's much...[Martin] Were you not involved and was the set designer as well, involved in the decision of what period And, and it's hard. It's much easier, it's much...[Martin] Were you not involved and was the set designer as well, involved in the decision of what period

2:19:03

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it's going to be set in? [Jennifer] They would have told me. [Martin] Is that a creative collaboration? [Jennifer] No, they would have told me that's the period we're doing it. Because they it's going to be set in? [Jennifer] They would have told me. [Martin] Is that a creative collaboration? [Jennifer] No, they would have told me that's the period we're doing it. Because they

2:19:10

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kind, set designers and directors always have the first talks. I don't know why. [Martin] You're further down the pecking order kind, set designers and directors always have the first talks. I don't know why. [Martin] You're further down the pecking order

2:19:18

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[Jennifer] I am definitely down [Martin] as the costume designer. [Jennifer] and the lighting designers get the last talks. Isn't it weird. [Martin] And there's the sound [Jennifer] I am definitely down [Martin] as the costume designer. [Jennifer] and the lighting designers get the last talks. Isn't it weird. [Martin] And there's the sound

2:19:22

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somewhere in there. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] It's just the way it happens. It shouldn't be like that. [Martin] Let me just throw at you a quote from The Age that was critical somewhere in there. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] It's just the way it happens. It shouldn't be like that. [Martin] Let me just throw at you a quote from The Age that was critical

2:19:30

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of that production and I'm just wondering whether you feel it, of that production and I'm just wondering whether you feel it,

2:19:33

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he described it as a bewildered collection of folk, dressed in all manner of styles, he described it as a bewildered collection of folk, dressed in all manner of styles,

2:19:38

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making it difficult to tell the Montagus from the Capulets. Um... [Jennifer] Oh [laughs]. [Martin] Does costuming mean, does costuming have a dramaturgical, um, making it difficult to tell the Montagus from the Capulets. Um... [Jennifer] Oh [laughs]. [Martin] Does costuming mean, does costuming have a dramaturgical, um,

2:19:47

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role in actually making clear the story delineations and, and the, by dress? [Jennifer] Mm. Well that's interesting because with the, well with Romeo role in actually making clear the story delineations and, and the, by dress? [Jennifer] Mm. Well that's interesting because with the, well with Romeo

2:20:01

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and Juliet, that, that show I was allowed to redesign all the principals and Juliet, that, that show I was allowed to redesign all the principals

2:20:07

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and I had to use old costumes of stock for the, for the ensemble because of their budget constraints. So... [Martin] So you redesigned and I had to use old costumes of stock for the, for the ensemble because of their budget constraints. So... [Martin] So you redesigned

2:20:19

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some but you had to use old costumes for others? [Jennifer] Yeah. So all the chorus were re-, some but you had to use old costumes for others? [Jennifer] Yeah. So all the chorus were re-,

2:20:24

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we had to pull out what we could and trick them up. And, but all the principals were all made from scratch. Being, you know, the main, we had to pull out what we could and trick them up. And, but all the principals were all made from scratch. Being, you know, the main,

2:20:37

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the main principals and the minor principals. So that's interesting. [Martin] That would explain that wouldn't it? [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah. 'Cause that's exactly what it was. [laughs] the main principals and the minor principals. So that's interesting. [Martin] That would explain that wouldn't it? [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah. 'Cause that's exactly what it was. [laughs]

2:20:48

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[Martin] And also the challenge of creative collaboration involving all the partners together like your earlier work with the [Martin] And also the challenge of creative collaboration involving all the partners together like your earlier work with the

2:20:55

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Sydney Dance Company and Bangarra. Um, ah, and you're also doing the Merry Widow, speaking of Graeme Murphy who... Sydney Dance Company and Bangarra. Um, ah, and you're also doing the Merry Widow, speaking of Graeme Murphy who...

2:21:03

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[Jennifer] Yes, that we're building absolutely from scratch. And it is Art Deco and it's going to be so beautiful. Because it, the, [Jennifer] Yes, that we're building absolutely from scratch. And it is Art Deco and it's going to be so beautiful. Because it, the,

2:21:13

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the set is all black and gold and the first, and, of course, the set came first, definitely came first. And, the set is all black and gold and the first, and, of course, the set came first, definitely came first. And,

2:21:20

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and [Martin] By Michael Scott Mitchell. [Jennifer] was quite separate in our process at the beginning. So, the set Michael went away and designed and [Martin] By Michael Scott Mitchell. [Jennifer] was quite separate in our process at the beginning. So, the set Michael went away and designed

2:21:29

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his set. He, he wouldn't have a clue what I'm doing, costume-wise. He will see them his set. He, he wouldn't have a clue what I'm doing, costume-wise. He will see them

2:21:34

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when they're, when we're on stage. [Martin] I thought you were all meant to be talking to each other? [Jennifer] We talk to each other when they're, when we're on stage. [Martin] I thought you were all meant to be talking to each other? [Jennifer] We talk to each other

2:21:38

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but he wouldn't, he wouldn't know what's, what's happening. 'Cause the wardrobe department's the wardrobe department. but he wouldn't, he wouldn't know what's, what's happening. 'Cause the wardrobe department's the wardrobe department.

2:21:45

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I've seen the set being built because I walk through that set department and I, and I see the model I've seen the set being built because I walk through that set department and I, and I see the model

2:21:50

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but, and he's seen my drawings, he's seen the drawings but he hasn't actually seen the choice of fabrics but, and he's seen my drawings, he's seen the drawings but he hasn't actually seen the choice of fabrics

2:21:55

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and what, what I'm doing, you know, how I'm arriving at the drawings. But luckily because I can draw and what, what I'm doing, you know, how I'm arriving at the drawings. But luckily because I can draw

2:22:04

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I can be fairly detailed in my looks for, transit, you know, getting a cutter to understand how one makes a costume too I can be fairly detailed in my looks for, transit, you know, getting a cutter to understand how one makes a costume too

2:22:15

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because I can sew. So it's actually, a lot, a lot of designers can't sew. So it is very, it's so much because I can sew. So it's actually, a lot, a lot of designers can't sew. So it is very, it's so much

2:22:23

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you, so much easier to explain to somebody you, so much easier to explain to somebody

2:22:27

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if you understand their language. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] So, but Art Deco, so, I mean, no, Michael hasn't seen any of the costumes in reality but if you understand their language. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] So, but Art Deco, so, I mean, no, Michael hasn't seen any of the costumes in reality but

2:22:38

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I've, it, we've got a... [Martin] So the setting is an Art Deco, opulent, very French world. [Jennifer] It's Art Deco and it's opulent I've, it, we've got a... [Martin] So the setting is an Art Deco, opulent, very French world. [Jennifer] It's Art Deco and it's opulent

2:22:46

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and it's and the first act is all, Graeme wanted, well we discussed it and it's and the first act is all, Graeme wanted, well we discussed it

2:22:50

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and we decided, satins, beautiful satins, 1930s dresses which is kind of the latter part of Art Deco and we decided, satins, beautiful satins, 1930s dresses which is kind of the latter part of Art Deco

2:22:57

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and then the, the, the 2nd act is a garden party with a beautiful Monet paint-, waterlilies across the back and then the, the, the 2nd act is a garden party with a beautiful Monet paint-, waterlilies across the back

2:23:04

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and Graeme's brief was, let's make them, why don't we go down the track of light and florals and Graeme's brief was, let's make them, why don't we go down the track of light and florals

2:23:10

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and soft silks. So that's the kind of the Downton Abbey garden party and them the last act is all mirrors and silver and soft silks. So that's the kind of the Downton Abbey garden party and them the last act is all mirrors and silver

2:23:19

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and what we've, I'm, it's all velvets and kind of more graphic dresses. And the Widow, and what we've, I'm, it's all velvets and kind of more graphic dresses. And the Widow,

2:23:28

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she kind of, she's, she, you have to wait and see [laughs]. [Martin] Um, in 2015 you did with Murphy, um, Giselle, ah, she kind of, she's, she, you have to wait and see [laughs]. [Martin] Um, in 2015 you did with Murphy, um, Giselle, ah,

2:23:38

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which was, ah, [Jennifer] In Korea. [Martin] here you are doing a kind of picture book ballet for the first time which was, ah, [Jennifer] In Korea. [Martin] here you are doing a kind of picture book ballet for the first time

2:23:43

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almost. This is the first OS commission by the Univers-, the Universal Ballet of Korea almost. This is the first OS commission by the Univers-, the Universal Ballet of Korea

2:23:49

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and you're working with an old team - Damian Cooper on lights. [Jennifer] Hm-mm. [Martin] Gerard Mannion on set, um, and you're working with an old team - Damian Cooper on lights. [Jennifer] Hm-mm. [Martin] Gerard Mannion on set, um,

2:23:56

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and this is a contemporary it seems, [Jennifer] It is. [Martin] um, but also Korean retelling, um, and this is a contemporary it seems, [Jennifer] It is. [Martin] um, but also Korean retelling, um,

2:24:03

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how did you, um, how did you attempt to sort of, ah, bring Asia into your costumes, it's a bit like taking coals to Newcastle, how did you, um, how did you attempt to sort of, ah, bring Asia into your costumes, it's a bit like taking coals to Newcastle,

2:24:12

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um, doing this production in Korea. [Jennifer] And with a company that really didn't speak English. Well, um, doing this production in Korea. [Jennifer] And with a company that really didn't speak English. Well,

2:24:22

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the cost-, the costume makers and the costume department. But it was, it was such a beautiful job to do, the cost-, the costume makers and the costume department. But it was, it was such a beautiful job to do,

2:24:29

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they were such lovely people. Um, well we designed it, basically, we designed it here and then we went they were such lovely people. Um, well we designed it, basically, we designed it here and then we went

2:24:38

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and we, we presented our ideas. And it was all it was all drawings and we, we presented our ideas. And it was all it was all drawings

2:24:45

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like really I had to lots and lots of drawings of exactly what I wanted and it like really I had to lots and lots of drawings of exactly what I wanted and it

2:24:53

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well it was a contemporary version. I mean it was contemporary, all, all my Willies, the, the, the, they had white, silver-white long wigs - well it was a contemporary version. I mean it was contemporary, all, all my Willies, the, the, the, they had white, silver-white long wigs -

2:25:02

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beautiful Asian girls. [Martin] Who are the Willies again? [Jennifer] They're the witches, the, the un-, the dead. The, so normally they are in white tutus beautiful Asian girls. [Martin] Who are the Willies again? [Jennifer] They're the witches, the, the un-, the dead. The, so normally they are in white tutus

2:25:09

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with long veils with long veils

2:25:12

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and these girls [Martin] Oh, of course they're women abandoned by their men that Giselle goes to join when she's [Jennifer] we call them the witches [laughs]. [Martin] dumped by the prince, yes. and these girls [Martin] Oh, of course they're women abandoned by their men that Giselle goes to join when she's [Jennifer] we call them the witches [laughs]. [Martin] dumped by the prince, yes.

2:25:20

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[Jennifer] So they, so they were all in shredded, they were pleated, pleated dresses that had a sheen to them [Jennifer] So they, so they were all in shredded, they were pleated, pleated dresses that had a sheen to them

2:25:27

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and they had like the, the, the actual set had this big tree – it was this big dark tree that was like in the middle of the forest and they had like the, the, the actual set had this big tree – it was this big dark tree that was like in the middle of the forest

2:25:36

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and so our Willies had, looked like they had roots growing up over the, over their white glazed dresses and their long silver and so our Willies had, looked like they had roots growing up over the, over their white glazed dresses and their long silver

2:25:47

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wigs and they, you know, they all went completely mad with their, their wigs just whooshed around and around wigs and they, you know, they all went completely mad with their, their wigs just whooshed around and around

2:25:55

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and it was really fabulous seeing it. Oh, it was sensational. [Martin] And the costumes for Giselle were remarkable, um, and it was really fabulous seeing it. Oh, it was sensational. [Martin] And the costumes for Giselle were remarkable, um,

2:26:00

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drawing, it seemed to me on Bangarra, a very simple white dress that looked as though it was sort of carved out of indigenous flora or... [Jennifer] It was like feathers. drawing, it seemed to me on Bangarra, a very simple white dress that looked as though it was sort of carved out of indigenous flora or... [Jennifer] It was like feathers.

2:26:08

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It was all laser cut, laser cut little strips that were, um, like, um, oh, they were, roun-, like the, the skirt of Giselle in It was all laser cut, laser cut little strips that were, um, like, um, oh, they were, roun-, like the, the skirt of Giselle in

2:26:21

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the last act when she's dying, it was las-, the last act when she's dying, it was las-,

2:26:24

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they looked like feathers. They were little laser-cut fabric but it went they looked like feathers. They were little laser-cut fabric but it went

2:26:27

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round and round and round and round in a kind of, um, oh, how do you say it, like a topographical map that went round and round round and round and round and round in a kind of, um, oh, how do you say it, like a topographical map that went round and round

2:26:38

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and round. And like I, and round. And like I,

2:26:40

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I couldn't have afforded to do that here. Like if I'd done that with the Australian Ballet it would have taken them four months to build that I couldn't have afforded to do that here. Like if I'd done that with the Australian Ballet it would have taken them four months to build that

2:26:46

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dress. dress.

2:26:47

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They did it overnight in, in Korea. Like I, They did it overnight in, in Korea. Like I,

2:26:50

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I, I did all the, the pattern, because I get, because I can do patterns and I can draw on the whole pattern and say I, I did all the, the pattern, because I get, because I can do patterns and I can draw on the whole pattern and say

2:26:57

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you know, in, in my English version to their Korean version and going I want it round round and round. And we, you know, in, in my English version to their Korean version and going I want it round round and round. And we,

2:27:07

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we spoke the same language, even though we didn't speak the same language. And the next day it came, but I, we spoke the same language, even though we didn't speak the same language. And the next day it came, but I,

2:27:13

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I bought all the fabrics there and I bought all the fabrics there and

2:27:14

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they have the most incredible fabric supply in Korea. Like warehouses, [Martin] The markets? [Jennifer] warehouses full of every conceivable thing you'd ever they have the most incredible fabric supply in Korea. Like warehouses, [Martin] The markets? [Jennifer] warehouses full of every conceivable thing you'd ever

2:27:23

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want. And if you say, oh, want. And if you say, oh,

2:27:25

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and you look at all these samples and you think, oh, wouldn't it be nice to have that in a pink, a pink kind of ombre'd bit of and you look at all these samples and you think, oh, wouldn't it be nice to have that in a pink, a pink kind of ombre'd bit of

2:27:32

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fabric that had a bit of glaze to it. And you'd look down at the sample and you'd have it. Like, like fabric that had a bit of glaze to it. And you'd look down at the sample and you'd have it. Like, like

2:27:37

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there's nothing you could - if you can't get it there, you can-, it doesn't exist. there's nothing you could - if you can't get it there, you can-, it doesn't exist.

2:27:40

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And so I, we went out shopping looking for something that looked like a laser-cut, feathered soft, soft fabric And so I, we went out shopping looking for something that looked like a laser-cut, feathered soft, soft fabric

2:27:52

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overlay and we found this most incredible fabric. And it actually had to be taken off the backing fabric overlay and we found this most incredible fabric. And it actually had to be taken off the backing fabric

2:27:59

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and sewn on to a sheer fabric, but it was something we could use. And it was and sewn on to a sheer fabric, but it was something we could use. And it was

2:28:05

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which is why, why I like going looking for fabrics because I could see the possibilities that that fabric could do, in the way which is why, why I like going looking for fabrics because I could see the possibilities that that fabric could do, in the way

2:28:14

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we wanted to do it. [Martin] Another remarkable image was a, a kind of long dress that, um, Giselle wore - red, black we wanted to do it. [Martin] Another remarkable image was a, a kind of long dress that, um, Giselle wore - red, black

2:28:21

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sort of strep-, straps, leathery straps, um... [Jennifer] Ah, yeah, yeah. sort of strep-, straps, leathery straps, um... [Jennifer] Ah, yeah, yeah.

2:28:26

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Well I ended up doing it in silver because I couldn't find the, the colour that I wanted, Well I ended up doing it in silver because I couldn't find the, the colour that I wanted,

2:28:31

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but I found this fabulous silver ribbon that had a good weight to it. And we were able to, it was like but I found this fabulous silver ribbon that had a good weight to it. And we were able to, it was like

2:28:41

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oh, well it just, it just worked for the drawing. And I, and once again I look, I look at, there's a few people in the world oh, well it just, it just worked for the drawing. And I, and once again I look, I look at, there's a few people in the world

2:28:50

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that I love their sculptural kind of fashion and I, you look at them and you kind of, I mean, everybody steals ideas off everybody that I love their sculptural kind of fashion and I, you look at them and you kind of, I mean, everybody steals ideas off everybody

2:28:59

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but you kinda think, oh that is a great idea and then you evolve it into your own idea in a different way. [Martin] But if fashion but you kinda think, oh that is a great idea and then you evolve it into your own idea in a different way. [Martin] But if fashion

2:29:09

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is also about telling - not fashion - if costume design is also about saying something about character, what did that dress say about Giselle? is also about telling - not fashion - if costume design is also about saying something about character, what did that dress say about Giselle?

2:29:18

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[Jennifer] I guess the soft one was her, her innocence [Jennifer] I guess the soft one was her, her innocence

2:29:24

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and her vulnerability and her, just yeah this, I guess that. Because it was just a, a light soft fluttering and her vulnerability and her, just yeah this, I guess that. Because it was just a, a light soft fluttering

2:29:38

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kind of dress. [Martin] Yep, it looked like that. [Jennifer] Mm. kind of dress. [Martin] Yep, it looked like that. [Jennifer] Mm.

2:29:41

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[Martin] And the other one? [Jennifer] Well that, the was more the Nobles that girl so she needed to look strong and, [Martin] And the other one? [Jennifer] Well that, the was more the Nobles that girl so she needed to look strong and,

2:29:49

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and read from a distance, shy and beaut-, and just beauty and read from a distance, shy and beaut-, and just beauty

2:29:53

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and opulence. Wealth. [Martin] In the, ah, you mentioned it earlier in 2012 and opulence. Wealth. [Martin] In the, ah, you mentioned it earlier in 2012

2:30:01

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you did with Murphy the Austr-, and the Australian Ballet, the Narrative of Nothing. Um, so that's kind of a much more, it was you did with Murphy the Austr-, and the Australian Ballet, the Narrative of Nothing. Um, so that's kind of a much more, it was

2:30:08

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much more abstract wasn't it than the story [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] we've just been discussing, done in Korea. much more abstract wasn't it than the story [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] we've just been discussing, done in Korea.

2:30:14

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Ah, and lit very powerfully to a Brett Dean score, um, what, how did you Ah, and lit very powerfully to a Brett Dean score, um, what, how did you

2:30:20

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approach that work without any stories, characters? [Jennifer] Graeme, Graeme saying I want bodies, approach that work without any stories, characters? [Jennifer] Graeme, Graeme saying I want bodies,

2:30:26

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I want bodystockings I want bodystockings

2:30:29

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and I said, well, why, why don't, because I have done a lot of digital printing over the years where I can't find anything I like and I said, well, why, why don't, because I have done a lot of digital printing over the years where I can't find anything I like

2:30:37

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so I think oh well so I think oh well

2:30:39

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I know a body pattern shape, and especially if it's a bodystocking, a long you know an all-over, that I can do an art work and, I know a body pattern shape, and especially if it's a bodystocking, a long you know an all-over, that I can do an art work and,

2:30:49

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and paint, som-, ah, paint a design that enhances the body shape or the muscles and paint, som-, ah, paint a design that enhances the body shape or the muscles

2:30:57

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or the, so because I can, how I do something like that is I, I have the big pieces of paper, I draw my pattern out or the, so because I can, how I do something like that is I, I have the big pieces of paper, I draw my pattern out

2:31:05

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and I, because I know the shape of the bodystocking that that, not many people know how to make a good bodystocking. So I can, I and I, because I know the shape of the bodystocking that that, not many people know how to make a good bodystocking. So I can, I

2:31:15

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can actually do the drawing on it, so I can, I know exactly where the curve of the body is and the, can actually do the drawing on it, so I can, I know exactly where the curve of the body is and the,

2:31:20

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the muscle in the back leg or the blah blah. So I can design that and then you get it scanned into, on into the computer the muscle in the back leg or the blah blah. So I can design that and then you get it scanned into, on into the computer

2:31:29

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and then you can change the colours, you can do anything. So, and then you can change the colours, you can do anything. So,

2:31:32

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so I had enough budget, because it needed to be simple, I had enough budget to be able to actually design the fabric for those ones so I had enough budget, because it needed to be simple, I had enough budget to be able to actually design the fabric for those ones

2:31:41

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and that was the design, I mean that was the brief and that's what I did. and that was the design, I mean that was the brief and that's what I did.

2:31:46

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And it was abstract. It was all abstract. It was lines, it was lines but contemporary lines of colour And it was abstract. It was all abstract. It was lines, it was lines but contemporary lines of colour

2:31:53

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basically. And in that program that was Graeme's and also in that program it was Stephens, basically. And in that program that was Graeme's and also in that program it was Stephens,

2:31:59

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so I had two totally different works. And Stephen's was Warramuk, telling an indigenous story of the sky and the earth so I had two totally different works. And Stephen's was Warramuk, telling an indigenous story of the sky and the earth

2:32:09

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the, the, the evening star and the moon and, and all of that with the Bangarra company and the Australian Ballet the, the, the evening star and the moon and, and all of that with the Bangarra company and the Australian Ballet

2:32:16

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and I had the Australian Ballet. So I had two absolute totally different works to design. It was a gift. It was fabulous. and I had the Australian Ballet. So I had two absolute totally different works to design. It was a gift. It was fabulous.

2:32:24

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[Martin] As Australian, Australia, um, an Australian Ballet, Australia Ballet double bill. Um, so his was a sort of an indigenous narrative of [Martin] As Australian, Australia, um, an Australian Ballet, Australia Ballet double bill. Um, so his was a sort of an indigenous narrative of

2:32:34

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Aboriginal [Jennifer] Story. [Martin] astronomy told through seven different vignettes or something. [Jennifer] Yes stories of... Aboriginal [Jennifer] Story. [Martin] astronomy told through seven different vignettes or something. [Jennifer] Yes stories of...

2:32:40

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[Martin] And again in a Jacob Nash design - a black box. [Jennifer] Yes. And, and, and an art work really. It was [Martin] And again in a Jacob Nash design - a black box. [Jennifer] Yes. And, and, and an art work really. It was

2:32:48

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it was, 'cause now the way that Stephen does works, they're, they're, some of them it was, 'cause now the way that Stephen does works, they're, they're, some of them

2:32:53

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you go and see and you think, Oh my god, it's like walking into a gallery of art. Because especially with Jacob's, Jake's set pieces. you go and see and you think, Oh my god, it's like walking into a gallery of art. Because especially with Jacob's, Jake's set pieces.

2:33:01

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Sometimes they're just so minimal but such beautiful paintings or a such a beautiful big feather ring or Sometimes they're just so minimal but such beautiful paintings or a such a beautiful big feather ring or

2:33:14

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or a something, you know, they're, they're, they're just, they're sculptures. Of which now I'm trying to do more, my, I, or a something, you know, they're, they're, they're just, they're sculptures. Of which now I'm trying to do more, my, I,

2:33:25

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I'm really finding that the more sculptural I become with the costumes of Bangarra and the more textures I'm really finding that the more sculptural I become with the costumes of Bangarra and the more textures

2:33:32

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and the more layers, the, I, I've got, you know, we can, it becomes, they become art pieces themselves. and the more layers, the, I, I've got, you know, we can, it becomes, they become art pieces themselves.

2:33:41

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That's what I'm trying to do at Bangarra now. That's what I'm trying to do at Bangarra now.

2:33:43

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[Martin] I, I see your recent costumes as highly sculptural and, ah, and, and textual. Um, perhaps we could in our [Martin] I, I see your recent costumes as highly sculptural and, ah, and, and textual. Um, perhaps we could in our

2:33:50

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last few, um, time, last few, um, time,

2:33:53

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um, let's just concentrate on the ongoing work that you've done with Bangarra since 2000. Um, ah, you um, let's just concentrate on the ongoing work that you've done with Bangarra since 2000. Um, ah, you

2:34:02

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um, ah, you did, ah, 2002 um, ah, you did, ah, 2002

2:34:06

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The Walkabout, double bill. That must have been a moving occasion since that was the first production, well by Stephen The Walkabout, double bill. That must have been a moving occasion since that was the first production, well by Stephen

2:34:16

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since the death of his brother Russell? [Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] And, um, had, had a rush with the t-, with the Torres Strait since the death of his brother Russell? [Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] And, um, had, had a rush with the t-, with the Torres Strait

2:34:27

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Islander elder Elma Kris in it [Jennifer] Elma, yeah. [Martin] as a junkie. Islander elder Elma Kris in it [Jennifer] Elma, yeah. [Martin] as a junkie.

2:34:31

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[Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] And a second work Rations. [Jennifer] I mean sometimes these things get a bit too close to home [Jennifer] Yeah. [Martin] And a second work Rations. [Jennifer] I mean sometimes these things get a bit too close to home

2:34:36

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I think, it's like, I think, I think, it's like, I think,

2:34:38

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and... [Martin] It must have been a very dark period because [Jennifer] See Bloodlands... [Martin] Rations is a dark work, a debut by choreographer Frances Rings who you worked with a number of times. and... [Martin] It must have been a very dark period because [Jennifer] See Bloodlands... [Martin] Rations is a dark work, a debut by choreographer Frances Rings who you worked with a number of times.

2:34:47

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[Jennifer] Mm. It was very dark work. [Martin] This is Bangarra moving con-, differently from the earlier production, into a much darker urban [Jennifer] Mm. It was very dark work. [Martin] This is Bangarra moving con-, differently from the earlier production, into a much darker urban

2:34:54

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contemporary spaces. [Jennifer] Mm. And it, and and it's more statement too. It's more, I think Stephen, he's, he's trying, contemporary spaces. [Jennifer] Mm. And it, and and it's more statement too. It's more, I think Stephen, he's, he's trying,

2:35:02

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he, he's, he's becoming more political he, he's, he's becoming more political

2:35:09

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I guess in Statements, because he can. I guess in Statements, because he can.

2:35:15

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But because in the early days I, maybe he wasn't, maybe he felt that he wasn't in a position to, to say But because in the early days I, maybe he wasn't, maybe he felt that he wasn't in a position to, to say

2:35:30

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I think he, because he's, he's, he's been so successful I think he, because he's, he's, he's been so successful

2:35:34

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I think now he can start putting on stage more what he means or what he, he wants to say than the earlier works were, were, well, I think now he can start putting on stage more what he means or what he, he wants to say than the earlier works were, were, well,

2:35:45

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you know, it was earth, sky, colour. [Martin] Mm, mm. [Jennifer] They weren't political statements. And they have become more you know, it was earth, sky, colour. [Martin] Mm, mm. [Jennifer] They weren't political statements. And they have become more

2:35:52

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and Bennelong, that he's doing now, will probably be the most political work he's ever done. But it's not about Bennelong, and Bennelong, that he's doing now, will probably be the most political work he's ever done. But it's not about Bennelong,

2:36:02

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it's about, it's about white and black. It's about... [Martin] Oh but even this, they're doing, doing dance works, dance theatre works around white- it's about, it's about white and black. It's about... [Martin] Oh but even this, they're doing, doing dance works, dance theatre works around white-

2:36:13

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black contact and mutual history. black contact and mutual history.

2:36:16

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It is an unusual... [Jennifer] Like Patyegarang, Patyegarang, It is an unusual... [Jennifer] Like Patyegarang, Patyegarang,

2:36:19

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but Patyegarang wasn't, it was a nice love story. It was a, it was an interesting, you know, it wasn't a statement, it was a but Patyegarang wasn't, it was a nice love story. It was a, it was an interesting, you know, it wasn't a statement, it was a

2:36:29

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story. [Martin] So this was 2014 Patyegarang story. [Martin] So this was 2014 Patyegarang

2:36:32

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and the cultural accord between First Fleeter Lieutenant William Dawes and the cultural accord between First Fleeter Lieutenant William Dawes

2:36:37

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and the local woman by that name. Um, and I, a striking Jacob Nash sandstone wall when you were talking about his, um, and the local woman by that name. Um, and I, a striking Jacob Nash sandstone wall when you were talking about his, um,

2:36:46

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painterly sculptural impact, and Nick Schlieper doing the lights. [Jennifer] Mm. So it's the same crowd... [Martin] Um, you had to costume them painterly sculptural impact, and Nick Schlieper doing the lights. [Jennifer] Mm. So it's the same crowd... [Martin] Um, you had to costume them

2:36:54

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in their twin worlds for the first time. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] You had to, um, do some research did you on colonial history and, in their twin worlds for the first time. [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] You had to, um, do some research did you on colonial history and,

2:37:02

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and also colonial costuming, and also colonial costuming,

2:37:05

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how seriously did you, not seriously, but...? [Jennifer] Well you always have a good look how seriously did you, not seriously, but...? [Jennifer] Well you always have a good look

2:37:08

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and I do a lot of reading, I do a lot of reading. I mean I', reading a lot of books about Bennelong at the moment and I do a lot of reading, I do a lot of reading. I mean I', reading a lot of books about Bennelong at the moment

2:37:13

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but the [Martin] Which of course is from a similar period. [Jennifer] Mm. But when, but it has to be abstract. There's, there is a character Bennalong, but the [Martin] Which of course is from a similar period. [Jennifer] Mm. But when, but it has to be abstract. There's, there is a character Bennalong,

2:37:24

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but I mean there's a, there's beautiful moments. There's always going to be a ceremony. And it, 'cause Stephen but I mean there's a, there's beautiful moments. There's always going to be a ceremony. And it, 'cause Stephen

2:37:30

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always likes, you know, there's always going to be a traditional section or a ceremony and in his opening of Bennalong always likes, you know, there's always going to be a traditional section or a ceremony and in his opening of Bennalong

2:37:40

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they're now all, they're wear-, I've made leaf costumes. And they, they look, like I've never made leaf costumes, they're now all, they're wear-, I've made leaf costumes. And they, they look, like I've never made leaf costumes,

2:37:48

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but they're all, um, fabric leaves that they're all over, like they're beautiful dresses. All the women wear dresses but they're all, um, fabric leaves that they're all over, like they're beautiful dresses. All the women wear dresses

2:37:56

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so that it's on net and there's leaves all over. And then I've painted over them so they're all whites and leaves so that it's on net and there's leaves all over. And then I've painted over them so they're all whites and leaves

2:38:02

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and all the men have got trousers that look a bit. bit like chap kind of things. And they've got leaves all over them and all the men have got trousers that look a bit. bit like chap kind of things. And they've got leaves all over them

2:38:09

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and that. Like it's, it's a ceremony and that. Like it's, it's a ceremony

2:38:13

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but it's not a ceremony like you'd imagine. It's gonna look fantastic the first couple of scenes. [Martin] It's hard to believe you haven't but it's not a ceremony like you'd imagine. It's gonna look fantastic the first couple of scenes. [Martin] It's hard to believe you haven't

2:38:21

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done leaves before given... [Jennifer] I've never done leaves. [Martin] given the, your... [Jennifer] They've carried leaves, theye use leaves, done leaves before given... [Jennifer] I've never done leaves. [Martin] given the, your... [Jennifer] They've carried leaves, theye use leaves,

2:38:26

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but I've never done leaves on costumes [laughs]. [Martin] Well you've abstracted, um, flora before, um. [Jennifer] Oh, I've had emus but I've never done leaves on costumes [laughs]. [Martin] Well you've abstracted, um, flora before, um. [Jennifer] Oh, I've had emus

2:38:34

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I've had kangaroos, I've had [laughs] lizards. [Martin] And in, and Bennelong, um, which is going to open soon in this year 2017, um, I've had kangaroos, I've had [laughs] lizards. [Martin] And in, and Bennelong, um, which is going to open soon in this year 2017, um,

2:38:46

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it uses again the dramaturge, Anna Valentine, um, who worked on Patyegarang, um, are you the same it uses again the dramaturge, Anna Valentine, um, who worked on Patyegarang, um, are you the same

2:38:52

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creative team? Is it you and, um, and Stephen doing the choreography and... [Jennifer] And Jake creative team? Is it you and, um, and Stephen doing the choreography and... [Jennifer] And Jake

2:38:58

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and Nick Schlieper lighting. [Martin] Doing the lighting, oh, okay. Um, so, um, ah, you, you also did, ah, in 2012 and Nick Schlieper lighting. [Martin] Doing the lighting, oh, okay. Um, so, um, ah, you, you also did, ah, in 2012

2:39:09

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Terrain with Frances Ring. Terrain with Frances Ring.

2:39:12

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[Jennifer] I mean that was abstract. That was very abstract [Jennifer] I mean that was abstract. That was very abstract

2:39:14

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and it was about Lake Eyre. So it's, so it was drawn from the land and basically, I mean I always go in there and it was about Lake Eyre. So it's, so it was drawn from the land and basically, I mean I always go in there

2:39:24

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and say you've got to give me numbers. You've got to tell me, is it a woman's piece, is it a man's piece, is it a full company piece. and say you've got to give me numbers. You've got to tell me, is it a woman's piece, is it a man's piece, is it a full company piece.

2:39:31

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Bangarra now is 19 dancers which is the biggest its ever been in its life. But Terrain, going back to Terrain, that was Bangarra now is 19 dancers which is the biggest its ever been in its life. But Terrain, going back to Terrain, that was

2:39:38

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by, she, the way she divided it, it was salt, well it was spinifex, it was salt, by, she, the way she divided it, it was salt, well it was spinifex, it was salt,

2:39:47

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it was the scouring of the land and the water arriving and the blooming of the land. So it was the scouring of the land and the water arriving and the blooming of the land. So

2:39:56

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when you start thinking about those ideas you can certainly see plenty of images when you start thinking about those ideas you can certainly see plenty of images

2:40:01

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and you see like the girls in the Spinifex, well you're looking at the land and you see like the girls in the Spinifex, well you're looking at the land

2:40:07

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and it was all cracking and dry and then I just thought well why don't we do some big laser cut skirts with holes in them and it was all cracking and dry and then I just thought well why don't we do some big laser cut skirts with holes in them

2:40:15

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and we'll put big spinifex kind of branch headdresses that they weave through their hair and we'll put big spinifex kind of branch headdresses that they weave through their hair

2:40:21

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and, and... [Martin] It's hard to believe you didn't get tips from indigenous people themselves in the making of those costumes and, and... [Martin] It's hard to believe you didn't get tips from indigenous people themselves in the making of those costumes

2:40:29

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since you're actually using, um, the materials [Jennifer] I didn't go, I didn't go to country. [Martin] No, you didn't go to country, but since you're actually using, um, the materials [Jennifer] I didn't go, I didn't go to country. [Martin] No, you didn't go to country, but

2:40:36

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you, you're using the materials or things that are meant to look like those materials and do so, you, you're using the materials or things that are meant to look like those materials and do so,

2:40:41

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whether it's leaves or spinifex or feathers whether it's leaves or spinifex or feathers

2:40:45

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but you're abstracting. [Jennifer] But they're all contemporary. [Martin] Yeah. [Jennifer] They're all contemporary. Same with the, the salt, the section with salt, and the, the, there's a solo but you're abstracting. [Jennifer] But they're all contemporary. [Martin] Yeah. [Jennifer] They're all contemporary. Same with the, the salt, the section with salt, and the, the, there's a solo

2:40:55

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and the guys got sculptural kind of, I suppose he looks a little bit like a lizard in a way but he's got, it's all salt and the guys got sculptural kind of, I suppose he looks a little bit like a lizard in a way but he's got, it's all salt

2:41:04

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squares that represent the cracking of the salt, well... [Martin] And, and another male with, um, with feathers completely, squares that represent the cracking of the salt, well... [Martin] And, and another male with, um, with feathers completely,

2:41:12

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um... [Jennifer] Except they're not feathers. [Martin] They're not feathers, sprouting... [Jennifer] Yeah. They're little silver plastic things. And that was, that was... [Martin] Running across, um... [Jennifer] Except they're not feathers. [Martin] They're not feathers, sprouting... [Jennifer] Yeah. They're little silver plastic things. And that was, that was... [Martin] Running across,

2:41:20

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across his full arm length. [Jennifer] Yeah. That was to, the salt pans, that section across his full arm length. [Jennifer] Yeah. That was to, the salt pans, that section

2:41:25

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and then there, there was another section that I had, that was the scouring of the land and the, and the, the digging up of the land and then there, there was another section that I had, that was the scouring of the land and the, and the, the digging up of the land

2:41:32

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and that was like oil slick and that's and that was like oil slick and that's

2:41:35

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and they had black kind of licorice strips all over them and dresses. [Martin] As a pollution on them? [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] And and they had black kind of licorice strips all over them and dresses. [Martin] As a pollution on them? [Jennifer] Mm. [Martin] And

2:41:44

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the stiff webbing shapes of, um, of the women. They're, they're very sculptural pieces, um, so they're quite stiff. I was the stiff webbing shapes of, um, of the women. They're, they're very sculptural pieces, um, so they're quite stiff. I was

2:41:52

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wondering whether it was hard to dance in. [Jennifer] Those big round things? [Martin] Yes, yes. [Jennifer] That, wondering whether it was hard to dance in. [Jennifer] Those big round things? [Martin] Yes, yes. [Jennifer] That,

2:41:56

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that was in Patyegarang. [Martin] Oh right okay. Um... [Jennifer] Yeah. But they were to represent the fishing baskets. [Martin] And the spray of wigs, [Jennifer] Yeah, that was, that was in Patyegarang. [Martin] Oh right okay. Um... [Jennifer] Yeah. But they were to represent the fishing baskets. [Martin] And the spray of wigs, [Jennifer] Yeah, that was,

2:42:05

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that was, [Martin] twigs in their hair? [Jennifer] that was in the spinifex section. So, yeah, that was, [Martin] twigs in their hair? [Jennifer] that was in the spinifex section. So, yeah,

2:42:09

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I mean there's endless possibilities. Endless [laughs]. [Martin] Um, in Lore in 2015, you did a very interesting double bill of I mean there's endless possibilities. Endless [laughs]. [Martin] Um, in Lore in 2015, you did a very interesting double bill of

2:42:18

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Lore, which was Ibis, which is set in a, the name of a shop in the contemporary Torres Strait Islanders. There's a lot of stories in Lore, which was Ibis, which is set in a, the name of a shop in the contemporary Torres Strait Islanders. There's a lot of stories in

2:42:27

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that one wasn't there? It was full of very colourful that one wasn't there? It was full of very colourful

2:42:30

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[Jennifer] They were... [Martin] Tropical skirts and... [Jennifer] Yeah. And they were very Islander and, and they, and ?Wallaga? and [Jennifer] They were... [Martin] Tropical skirts and... [Jennifer] Yeah. And they were very Islander and, and they, and ?Wallaga? and

2:42:37

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Deb who'd choreographed that section they, I mean, Deb who'd choreographed that section they, I mean,

2:42:40

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they wanted the girls in the Islander dresses. So Islander dresses, like, and the, the boys were, they wanted them they wanted the girls in the Islander dresses. So Islander dresses, like, and the, the boys were, they wanted them

2:42:47

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looking like they'd come back fishing, from fishing. So I mean it's pretty literal. That whole thing was pretty literal except for the looking like they'd come back fishing, from fishing. So I mean it's pretty literal. That whole thing was pretty literal except for the

2:42:55

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section that where the, they were meant to be crayfish coming out of the, the fridges. [Martin] Oh, that's right. Yes. [laughs]. [Jennifer] You know, and that's, I, that section that where the, they were meant to be crayfish coming out of the, the fridges. [Martin] Oh, that's right. Yes. [laughs]. [Jennifer] You know, and that's, I, that

2:43:04

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I must say, it, I must say, it,

2:43:06

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it did take me a, a while to think, oh what will we do now? [laughs]. But Lore, the second half of Lore that was Fran-, Franny's it did take me a, a while to think, oh what will we do now? [laughs]. But Lore, the second half of Lore that was Fran-, Franny's

2:43:16

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that was... [Martin] She Oak. [Jennifer] She Oak yes. And I mean it became, the music was very [Martin] So this is Frances Ring's She Oak. [Jennifer] mystical. [Martin] Yeah. that was... [Martin] She Oak. [Jennifer] She Oak yes. And I mean it became, the music was very [Martin] So this is Frances Ring's She Oak. [Jennifer] mystical. [Martin] Yeah.

2:43:26

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[Jennifer] And it was very mesmerising. [Martin] And those costumes were very striking because you, [Jennifer] And it was very mesmerising. [Martin] And those costumes were very striking because you,

2:43:33

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you almost had the, the men had a sort of elevated skeletal forms on their backs. you almost had the, the men had a sort of elevated skeletal forms on their backs.

2:43:39

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[Jennifer] They had... [Martin] Um. [Jennifer] They had, well there was a lot of rope and [Jennifer] They had... [Martin] Um. [Jennifer] They had, well there was a lot of rope and

2:43:43

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and feathers and sculptural things. [Martin] Why? [Jennifer] Why? [Martin] Yes. Dramaturgically why in that dance of She Oaks? [Jennifer] Well it could have been anything really. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] Could have been and feathers and sculptural things. [Martin] Why? [Jennifer] Why? [Martin] Yes. Dramaturgically why in that dance of She Oaks? [Jennifer] Well it could have been anything really. [Martin] Mm. [Jennifer] Could have been

2:43:53

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anything. It just happened to be, ended up being that. Because, 'cause it wasn't, it wasn't really representing anything anything. It just happened to be, ended up being that. Because, 'cause it wasn't, it wasn't really representing anything

2:44:05

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and it's much harder to, to design for really abstract stuff because there's too many possibilities. and it's much harder to, to design for really abstract stuff because there's too many possibilities.

2:44:13

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So I think we just wanted, we wanted to be able to see upper body So I think we just wanted, we wanted to be able to see upper body

2:44:21

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and there were a lot of transparent cloths in that section She Oaks, so and there were a lot of transparent cloths in that section She Oaks, so

2:44:28

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I think we just, that's a, I mean it evolved from talking and saying I think we just, that's a, I mean it evolved from talking and saying

2:44:33

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well what about some very light see-through organza skirts? Because they're not on the ground. Let and well what about some very light see-through organza skirts? Because they're not on the ground. Let and

2:44:42

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and that's how it happened. It, and I, you know, I don't actually know how things happen, and that's how it happened. It, and I, you know, I don't actually know how things happen,

2:44:49

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they just, I just start working on them and making them they just, I just start working on them and making them

2:44:51

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and then they just happen. [Martin] Well it's a magic that as I've said before how you... [Jennifer] Which is why I like making them. [Martin] Oh, okay, yes. [Jennifer] Because I find it so hard, and then they just happen. [Martin] Well it's a magic that as I've said before how you... [Jennifer] Which is why I like making them. [Martin] Oh, okay, yes. [Jennifer] Because I find it so hard,

2:44:59

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well I'd certainly for Bangarra I'd do the principals because if it, especially if they're individual people because I can be well I'd certainly for Bangarra I'd do the principals because if it, especially if they're individual people because I can be

2:45:06

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really creative and I can actually, it evolves as I make it. Rather than saying okay this is the drawing, I need six of them. really creative and I can actually, it evolves as I make it. Rather than saying okay this is the drawing, I need six of them.

2:45:15

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[Martin] Let me finish with Spear the film that you designed, um, made by Stephen Page, um, [Martin] Let me finish with Spear the film that you designed, um, made by Stephen Page, um,

2:45:22

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and you've had some experience in, in film but it hasn't been your main medium, about a young city bound, um, aboriginal man, and you've had some experience in, in film but it hasn't been your main medium, about a young city bound, um, aboriginal man,

2:45:32

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played by Stephen's son, Hunter Page-Lochard [Jennifer] Hm, mm. [Martin] finding his way in the world. played by Stephen's son, Hunter Page-Lochard [Jennifer] Hm, mm. [Martin] finding his way in the world.

2:45:38

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You were nominated for Best Costume design for that in a feature film. [Jennifer] Which I find incredible [Martin[ Yes. [Jennifer] against Hacksaw You were nominated for Best Costume design for that in a feature film. [Jennifer] Which I find incredible [Martin[ Yes. [Jennifer] against Hacksaw

2:45:44

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Ridge. [laughs]. And it wasn't a costume, it was not a costume movie, it wasn't. It looked beautiful but it wasn't a costume movie Ridge. [laughs]. And it wasn't a costume, it was not a costume movie, it wasn't. It looked beautiful but it wasn't a costume movie

2:45:53

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but obviously somebody out there liked it. but obviously somebody out there liked it.

2:45:56

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[Martin] What did you use, you've worked as a costume cutter as you said on the Matrix series and Mission Impossible, but on this one, [Martin] What did you use, you've worked as a costume cutter as you said on the Matrix series and Mission Impossible, but on this one,

2:46:02

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um... [Jennifer] It was, well there was a Mother Earth. I mean there was, and also it was based on Spear, um... [Jennifer] It was, well there was a Mother Earth. I mean there was, and also it was based on Spear,

2:46:09

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um, [Martin] That's a tall order - how do you dress a Mother Earth? [Jennifer] With a, well in the um, [Martin] That's a tall order - how do you dress a Mother Earth? [Jennifer] With a, well in the

2:46:16

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Bangarra kind of aesthetic of a long dress that trails and texture that you can build on and Bangarra kind of aesthetic of a long dress that trails and texture that you can build on and

2:46:27

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add, add earth to the, you know, 'cause Stephen, and it, she did look like she came out of the earth add, add earth to the, you know, 'cause Stephen, and it, she did look like she came out of the earth

2:46:35

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when she was doing it. And I mean it was a dance movie, it was a dance movie. So. [Martin] So... [Jennifer] And it was based on Spear that we did in 2000. when she was doing it. And I mean it was a dance movie, it was a dance movie. So. [Martin] So... [Jennifer] And it was based on Spear that we did in 2000.

2:46:47

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But there were a lot of sections in it, and, and and there was a prison section, so I mean it was very loosely based on it. But there were a lot of sections in it, and, and and there was a prison section, so I mean it was very loosely based on it.

2:46:52

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But it... [Martin] And you talked before, um, about, um, But it... [Martin] And you talked before, um, about, um,

2:46:57

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how, how a, a, a quality of the Bangarra dancers is that they're always covered in the ochre and your costumes are always how, how a, a, a quality of the Bangarra dancers is that they're always covered in the ochre and your costumes are always

2:47:04

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covered in ochre, um... [Jennifer] Which is a nightmare covered in ochre, um... [Jennifer] Which is a nightmare

2:47:07

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and fantastic because... [Martin] So they've got to age, well they've got to adjust to having... [Jennifer] And I do look at the way I design costumes for them as and fantastic because... [Martin] So they've got to age, well they've got to adjust to having... [Jennifer] And I do look at the way I design costumes for them as

2:47:16

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something that's going to disintegrate over time. something that's going to disintegrate over time.

2:47:20

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But actually they get better because they get so, like ochre you can't wash off. Once it's on its on But actually they get better because they get so, like ochre you can't wash off. Once it's on its on

2:47:26

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and red, if it's on a costume you never get rid of it. and red, if it's on a costume you never get rid of it.

2:47:29

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So you've kind of gotta design something that you know is just going to get layered So you've kind of gotta design something that you know is just going to get layered

2:47:34

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and layered and layered. [Martin] This is because the dancers are often on the floor, and layered and layered. [Martin] This is because the dancers are often on the floor,

2:47:39

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but also they're rubbing ochre on them [Jennifer] On themselves and... [Martin] almost but also they're rubbing ochre on them [Jennifer] On themselves and... [Martin] almost

2:47:42

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every night before. [Jennifer] Yeah, they paint themselves up in the, the paint room out in the dressing room every night before. [Jennifer] Yeah, they paint themselves up in the, the paint room out in the dressing room

2:47:48

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and they're covered head to toe more often than not. And sometimes they run straight offstage and they're in top to tail in white and they're covered head to toe more often than not. And sometimes they run straight offstage and they're in top to tail in white

2:47:57

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then they go in, they'll do their bit then they go in, they'll do their bit

2:48:01

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they'll paint themselves, have a quick shower, completely cover themselves with red, come back on they'll paint themselves, have a quick shower, completely cover themselves with red, come back on

2:48:07

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and go and have a shower, and go white again. I, I mean it's extraordinary. And they don't mind it. And they'll do it over... and go and have a shower, and go white again. I, I mean it's extraordinary. And they don't mind it. And they'll do it over...

2:48:13

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and they become these art pieces and the floor becomes an art piece. I mean it's extraordinary and they become these art pieces and the floor becomes an art piece. I mean it's extraordinary

2:48:19

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and I actually don't get horrified. I think let's go for it, and I actually don't get horrified. I think let's go for it,

2:48:22

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and you think, you can never have too much ochre. and you think, you can never have too much ochre.

2:48:24

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[Martin] And your Mother Earth in Sp-, in the film Spear had that quality of, um, [Jennifer] Mm. And often we put, [Martin] being from the earth. [Martin] And your Mother Earth in Sp-, in the film Spear had that quality of, um, [Jennifer] Mm. And often we put, [Martin] being from the earth.

2:48:30

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we put talcum powder and stuff on the costume so that when they come out we put talcum powder and stuff on the costume so that when they come out

2:48:34

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they look like they've got, you know, had a puff of smoke or, or they are quite spiritual or, or, you know. [Martin] And that film they look like they've got, you know, had a puff of smoke or, or they are quite spiritual or, or, you know. [Martin] And that film

2:48:44

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had a very beautiful red sort of stressed dress. [Jennifer] Oh, yes, that's a knitted one. That was a knitted, [Martin] Um, which is... [Jennifer] like laddered knitted dress. [Martin] Yeah. had a very beautiful red sort of stressed dress. [Jennifer] Oh, yes, that's a knitted one. That was a knitted, [Martin] Um, which is... [Jennifer] like laddered knitted dress. [Martin] Yeah.

2:48:54

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That was for Mother Earth, that was for the Earth Mother? [Jennifer] No that was for Woman of Desire. [Martin] Oh. [Jennifer] [laughs] [Martin] I, I saw a beautiful That was for Mother Earth, that was for the Earth Mother? [Jennifer] No that was for Woman of Desire. [Martin] Oh. [Jennifer] [laughs] [Martin] I, I saw a beautiful

2:49:05

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picture of it shot in Paris for Vogue. [Jennifer] Yeah they took that over for a few, for a little Vogue shoot. Yeah it was gorgeous wasn't it? picture of it shot in Paris for Vogue. [Jennifer] Yeah they took that over for a few, for a little Vogue shoot. Yeah it was gorgeous wasn't it?

2:49:13

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[Martin] So you are doing Bennelong, you're doing the Merry Widow, um, what, [Jennifer] Yes. [Martin] So you are doing Bennelong, you're doing the Merry Widow, um, what, [Jennifer] Yes.

2:49:16

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[Martin] What is next for you? [Jennifer] That's it. That's it. Then I'll be unemployed [laughs]. Until somebody wants me again. [Martin] Jenny Irwin thank you so much for talking with me. [Jennifer] Thank you. [Martin] What is next for you? [Jennifer] That's it. That's it. Then I'll be unemployed [laughs]. Until somebody wants me again. [Martin] Jenny Irwin thank you so much for talking with me. [Jennifer] Thank you.

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