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My name's Ingrid McGaughey and I'm resuming the conversation with Dick Thompson My name's Ingrid McGaughey and I'm resuming the conversation with Dick Thompson
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on the 18th of August 2011. Dick, we're just talking about the setting-up of Mawson on the 18th of August 2011. Dick, we're just talking about the setting-up of Mawson
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in 1954. In those days, there were no maps in 1954. In those days, there were no maps
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or any sort of hydrographic surveys of Horseshoe Harbour and the seas around Mawson. or any sort of hydrographic surveys of Horseshoe Harbour and the seas around Mawson.
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How did you know where to go, or where the shoals were, and did you have any How did you know where to go, or where the shoals were, and did you have any
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mishaps along the way? Well, we uh, you're certainly correct there was no mishaps along the way? Well, we uh, you're certainly correct there was no
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hydrographic surveys of any kind and we hydrographic surveys of any kind and we
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did have an echo sounder and the echo sounder did have an echo sounder and the echo sounder
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goes straight down not forward. goes straight down not forward.
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And so we would we use the echo sounder all the time going in And so we would we use the echo sounder all the time going in
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through the ice and was interesting that the bottom of the ocean was through the ice and was interesting that the bottom of the ocean was
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completely flat. And this is because the glaciers and other stuff that come off that just completely flat. And this is because the glaciers and other stuff that come off that just
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eroded. So while, while the ship eroded. So while, while the ship
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The very first year we were still using the echo sounder, it was The very first year we were still using the echo sounder, it was
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a Kelvin Hughes model M S 120. And we a Kelvin Hughes model M S 120. And we
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we put it on board at Antarctic expense and it was showing us we put it on board at Antarctic expense and it was showing us
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a clear bottom, so we, as long as we knew it was just straight underneath and not a clear bottom, so we, as long as we knew it was just straight underneath and not
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ahead of us. In subsequent years, the captain, the master of the ship took the ship's ahead of us. In subsequent years, the captain, the master of the ship took the ship's
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boat out and did handheld surveys around Horseshoe Harbour, boat out and did handheld surveys around Horseshoe Harbour,
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just doing dips. So that was rudimentary stuff. So yes, it was all right but just doing dips. So that was rudimentary stuff. So yes, it was all right but
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we did hit an uncharted rock - it's an odd thing it's always called uncharted we did hit an uncharted rock - it's an odd thing it's always called uncharted
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rocks - there's nothing charted in the Antarctic and in the rocks - there's nothing charted in the Antarctic and in the
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2nd or the 3rd expedition we're going Prydz Bay (PRYDZ). 2nd or the 3rd expedition we're going Prydz Bay (PRYDZ).
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We're inside the ice barrier when the sunny weather is flat calm and we're We're inside the ice barrier when the sunny weather is flat calm and we're
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sailing along to do coastal exploration work, we and sailing along to do coastal exploration work, we and
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we suddenly bang we hit something and what we hit was we suddenly bang we hit something and what we hit was
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a peak like that coming up from the bottom, of rock, which a peak like that coming up from the bottom, of rock, which
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we put we put
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a hole in the bow in the right hand side of the bow up what we call a hole in the bow in the right hand side of the bow up what we call
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a puncture not a puncture not
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a great big hole but it certainly it punctured. And we a great big hole but it certainly it punctured. And we
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stuck on it, too, we were stuck on this pinnacle of course. stuck on it, too, we were stuck on this pinnacle of course.
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We found the ships used the ship's engines to try and haul us off we couldn't get We found the ships used the ship's engines to try and haul us off we couldn't get
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off. There the Danes carried out an exercise in seamanship off. There the Danes carried out an exercise in seamanship
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which I'd read about in my navy seamanship manuals but really it's which I'd read about in my navy seamanship manuals but really it's
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just these things might happen and so I might just these things might happen and so I might
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a mockup, but essentially what what happened was that they swung out a mockup, but essentially what what happened was that they swung out
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up the ship's two lifeboats and built planking across up the ship's two lifeboats and built planking across
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the top of them. The spare anchor, which is always kept on deck, was swung over the the top of them. The spare anchor, which is always kept on deck, was swung over the
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side and it was suspended in between the 2 life belts from the planking by ropes. side and it was suspended in between the 2 life belts from the planking by ropes.
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Then, the ship's work boat towed this raft, I'll call it, out way to the Then, the ship's work boat towed this raft, I'll call it, out way to the
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stern of the [vessel name] 50 meters away, connected up stern of the [vessel name] 50 meters away, connected up
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the anchor to the stern winch of [vessel name], chopped through the ropes. the anchor to the stern winch of [vessel name], chopped through the ropes.
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The anchor sank to the bottom and then they started to wind in from the winch The anchor sank to the bottom and then they started to wind in from the winch
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it had gripped on the bottom, caught through it had gripped on the bottom, caught through
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a crag on the rocky bottom and we hauled ourselves off. Marvellous piece of seamanship. a crag on the rocky bottom and we hauled ourselves off. Marvellous piece of seamanship.
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Then, they did another Captain Cook job. Then, they did another Captain Cook job.
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In the sailing ship days, you would put a tarpaulin over the hole and then pump it In the sailing ship days, you would put a tarpaulin over the hole and then pump it
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out and this is what they did. See, there's the bow of the ship there, they put the out and this is what they did. See, there's the bow of the ship there, they put the
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tarpaulin over there and wiggled it around, all the way around and then tied up tarpaulin over there and wiggled it around, all the way around and then tied up
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on deck so the tarpaulin covered this puncture, this large puncture in the right hand on deck so the tarpaulin covered this puncture, this large puncture in the right hand
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side of bow. Then they turned the pumps on and pumped out 60 tons side of bow. Then they turned the pumps on and pumped out 60 tons
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of mixed oil, diesel oil, and seawater. of mixed oil, diesel oil, and seawater.
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Then, the master of the ship, which other people call the captain, and the chief Then, the master of the ship, which other people call the captain, and the chief
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engineer got down through the manhole into that fore tank, F O R E, as it's called engineer got down through the manhole into that fore tank, F O R E, as it's called
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and they built a coffer dam around that puncture and they built a coffer dam around that puncture
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thing of quick sealing cement. Built themselves, the captain was a good carpenter, built a wooden thing of quick sealing cement. Built themselves, the captain was a good carpenter, built a wooden
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structure around there and then poured quick sealing cement in. So, that restored the structure around there and then poured quick sealing cement in. So, that restored the
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integrity - that's the word they would use - of the ship's hull. But we integrity - that's the word they would use - of the ship's hull. But we
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were not good enough to do any ice-breaking after that. You know it wasn't, were not good enough to do any ice-breaking after that. You know it wasn't,
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wouldn't be satisfactory for charging the ice. Was it wouldn't be satisfactory for charging the ice. Was it
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the clear seas the rest of the way back home? Yes, well it's rough but no trouble the clear seas the rest of the way back home? Yes, well it's rough but no trouble
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at that held.  Put into dry dock back here and fixed it. [Ingrid]Over the subsequent years at that held.  Put into dry dock back here and fixed it. [Ingrid]Over the subsequent years
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were there any other mishaps with the ships? [Dick] Well, there's, there's the well. None of that were there any other mishaps with the ships? [Dick] Well, there's, there's the well. None of that
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nature, none of that nature. If I could tell nature, none of that nature. If I could tell
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a story about this, we're inside the ice barrier, we'd gone through the pack ice and there a story about this, we're inside the ice barrier, we'd gone through the pack ice and there
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we are in calm thing but heavy fog, and I used to spend we are in calm thing but heavy fog, and I used to spend
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a lot of time with the ship's master - we became good friends. And a lot of time with the ship's master - we became good friends. And
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we, and I was to be up the mast with him and in the crows nest which is the heated we, and I was to be up the mast with him and in the crows nest which is the heated
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control cabin and we were, er, so we might control cabin and we were, er, so we might
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have been on the bridge, but anyway we were sounding off the fog horn every five minutes have been on the bridge, but anyway we were sounding off the fog horn every five minutes
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and I said between us while nobody else is around,  we'll call ourselves Hans and  Dick, and I said between us while nobody else is around,  we'll call ourselves Hans and  Dick,
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otherwise we were formal in front of other people; Captain,  Mr Thompson so otherwise we were formal in front of other people; Captain,  Mr Thompson so
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"Hans" I says, "why is he heading if off?  We all know that there are no other ships in whole of "Hans" I says, "why is he heading if off?  We all know that there are no other ships in whole of
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the Antarctic."  "At the Court of Marine Inquiry, when the judge asks me the Antarctic."  "At the Court of Marine Inquiry, when the judge asks me
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'Captain you know what the international rules are in fog, and what you have to do and 'Captain you know what the international rules are in fog, and what you have to do and
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sound your fog horn every five minutes, why did you not do that sound your fog horn every five minutes, why did you not do that
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a ship?'  'Well' he says, 'some fella called Dick Thompson who comes from the Antarctic Division told me there's no a ship?'  'Well' he says, 'some fella called Dick Thompson who comes from the Antarctic Division told me there's no
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ships down there'. (chuckles) Is he qualified? No he's not." So the Danes would always, ships down there'. (chuckles) Is he qualified? No he's not." So the Danes would always,
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that was one of their phrases, "At the Court of Marine Inquiry" they'd say, um we, so that was one of their phrases, "At the Court of Marine Inquiry" they'd say, um we, so
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at no stage, outside of the great storm down in the Prydz Bay  at no stage, outside of the great storm down in the Prydz Bay 
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area following the pioneer year landing, uh that was the really area following the pioneer year landing, uh that was the really
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big storm or the big occasion, that was after we tried to land at Scullin Monolith, big storm or the big occasion, that was after we tried to land at Scullin Monolith,
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and ah, so we were in ahh and ah, so we were in ahh
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a very, very serious trouble there. [Ingrid] What happened in the big storm? [Dick} Well we had a very, very serious trouble there. [Ingrid] What happened in the big storm? [Dick} Well we had
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after we left Mawson, Phil Law wanted (a) to go to after we left Mawson, Phil Law wanted (a) to go to
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the Scullin Monolith, and to keep on exploring down the coast to the east. The weather, the the Scullin Monolith, and to keep on exploring down the coast to the east. The weather, the
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sky was very, very dark, of course we had no forecast but it looked very, very bad sky was very, very dark, of course we had no forecast but it looked very, very bad
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indeed, and we had been in fast ice all of the time indeed, and we had been in fast ice all of the time
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earlier.  We were in open water, but there was lots of bergy bits around and quite clearly earlier.  We were in open water, but there was lots of bergy bits around and quite clearly
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it was going to be an early ice year,  and, er, we it was going to be an early ice year,  and, er, we
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and this was and this was
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a decision of the captain, having unloaded all the cargo, which means that  a decision of the captain, having unloaded all the cargo, which means that 
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the ship has everything aft, the accommodation and machinery is aft, your two the ship has everything aft, the accommodation and machinery is aft, your two
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holds are forward, and your deep tanks are forward.  The  fore tanks are the deep tanks, holds are forward, and your deep tanks are forward.  The  fore tanks are the deep tanks,
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the four tanks were empty.  It would have been sensible to the four tanks were empty.  It would have been sensible to
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or practical to have pumped  seawater into those or practical to have pumped  seawater into those
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tanks to give you the stability. But in terms of what tanks to give you the stability. But in terms of what
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the, the owners of the company like to do is, to have clean tanks, because if you have the, the owners of the company like to do is, to have clean tanks, because if you have
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put salt water in you've got to clean the tanks again, so you like to keep the tanks put salt water in you've got to clean the tanks again, so you like to keep the tanks
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empty after  empty after 
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you refill them with diesel, distillate.  So we were riding high with you refill them with diesel, distillate.  So we were riding high with
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a bow like that,  like a bow like that,  like
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a sail and the storm hit us and pushed us over like that.  [Ingrid]  So a sail and the storm hit us and pushed us over like that.  [Ingrid]  So
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literally right over, to ninety degrees?  [Dick] Yes, so we lay, the ?kaisel? wallows back, they'd been   literally right over, to ninety degrees?  [Dick] Yes, so we lay, the ?kaisel? wallows back, they'd been  
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pushed again, with this big bow  sticking up in the acting like pushed again, with this big bow  sticking up in the acting like
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a sail with this, very great winds,  hitting us and pushing us over a sail with this, very great winds,  hitting us and pushing us over
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and we'd come back again and push it over.  Phil has described this in his various books and we'd come back again and push it over.  Phil has described this in his various books
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as, you know, the most terrifying period of his life.  The Auster  as, you know, the most terrifying period of his life.  The Auster 
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aircraft, on the upper deck aft, was blown off,  in the ear..., in the daytime we  aircraft, on the upper deck aft, was blown off,  in the ear..., in the daytime we 
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woke to see this sea, the surface of the sea just looked like, if you ever woke to see this sea, the surface of the sea just looked like, if you ever
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see a ready mix concrete vehicle at see a ready mix concrete vehicle at
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at building site, pouring this stuff out,  that's what the surface is the sea looked at building site, pouring this stuff out,  that's what the surface is the sea looked
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like.  The whole of the surface of the sea was jumbled up ice.  The bergie bits like.  The whole of the surface of the sea was jumbled up ice.  The bergie bits
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crashing against the side, ah, and throwing ice all over the main  deck which crashing against the side, ah, and throwing ice all over the main  deck which
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we would get out and chuck over onto the other side.  So we were like in this  we would get out and chuck over onto the other side.  So we were like in this 
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situation for the first 24 hours then slight, slight abatements,  but, at that stage situation for the first 24 hours then slight, slight abatements,  but, at that stage
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the sea started to freeze, and so there we were with um,  I should mention at this stage the sea started to freeze, and so there we were with um,  I should mention at this stage
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that they found out that they, when they tried to ballast the ship by pumping seawater in that they found out that they, when they tried to ballast the ship by pumping seawater in
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that the feed lines had frozen and  so they couldn't, they couldn't  that the feed lines had frozen and  so they couldn't, they couldn't 
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fix the system once it started. And so there we were with fix the system once it started. And so there we were with
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a lame ship in a lame ship in
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a dreadful sea and a freezing sea  around us. Then the wind blew.  After forty eight  a dreadful sea and a freezing sea  around us. Then the wind blew.  After forty eight 
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hours the wind blew from the other direction and blew some of the ice away and we hours the wind blew from the other direction and blew some of the ice away and we
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managed to regain, through the pack ice,  into the open water, but ah managed to regain, through the pack ice,  into the open water, but ah
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without, without any doubt it was a most serious circumstance.  There without, without any doubt it was a most serious circumstance.  There
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of course was no ship in the whole of the Southern Ocean, you, er, it was of course was no ship in the whole of the Southern Ocean, you, er, it was
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no possibility of aid or assistance no possibility of aid or assistance
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of any kind, even though we had radio. That, that was, that was after of any kind, even though we had radio. That, that was, that was after
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our time at, at Scullin Monolith.  Phil was determined to go our time at, at Scullin Monolith.  Phil was determined to go
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ashore at Scullin Monolith, as part of his ego, wanting to get to these  ashore at Scullin Monolith, as part of his ego, wanting to get to these 
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places and I was the person who ran landing operations, the ship's work boat, not the  places and I was the person who ran landing operations, the ship's work boat, not the 
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life boat, but life boat, but
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the work boat, was a good boat, and the second mate, Wilhelm Peterson, with whom I  the work boat, was a good boat, and the second mate, Wilhelm Peterson, with whom I 
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still in touch, was the boat handler with me and Phil wanted to go still in touch, was the boat handler with me and Phil wanted to go
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ashore on Scullin Monolith, and take with him, the surveyor and  the geophysicist to get ashore on Scullin Monolith, and take with him, the surveyor and  the geophysicist to get
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a fix, which is what we always tried to do, was get fixes on any piece of rock along a fix, which is what we always tried to do, was get fixes on any piece of rock along
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the coast, because in those days,  the whole coastline ??? was  the coast, because in those days,  the whole coastline ??? was 
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a dotted line, because they were ice cliffs most of the way anyway, and so over the  a dotted line, because they were ice cliffs most of the way anyway, and so over the 
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ten years I was there, as we established the coastline of Antarctica. because of ten years I was there, as we established the coastline of Antarctica. because of
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the astro fixes we made at any pieces of rock we found and the astro fixes we made at any pieces of rock we found and
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so,  at Scullin, with this very dark cloud above us and so,  at Scullin, with this very dark cloud above us and
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a big, well the surface of the sea was clear and not breaking,  it was big swell a big, well the surface of the sea was clear and not breaking,  it was big swell
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running in.  The rocks at the foot of Scullin Monolith were smooth and covered with ice, running in.  The rocks at the foot of Scullin Monolith were smooth and covered with ice,
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and I said while it might be possible to land you, I would find great difficulty ever getting and I said while it might be possible to land you, I would find great difficulty ever getting
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you off. I believe you should not land. you off. I believe you should not land.
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"I want to." "I want to."
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Well I said "well we're not going to."  So we, so he accepted that and we went back Well I said "well we're not going to."  So we, so he accepted that and we went back
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to the ship.  We got onto the deck where he and I had to the ship.  We got onto the deck where he and I had
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a blazing row in front of everybody on the cargo deck top of Kista a blazing row in front of everybody on the cargo deck top of Kista
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Dan. But he said "I want to go."  So we went back again, and it was worse and I said "No. Dan. But he said "I want to go."  So we went back again, and it was worse and I said "No.
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I'm responsible for the saving of life at sea and I will, so we will not land, because I I'm responsible for the saving of life at sea and I will, so we will not land, because I
14:52

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believe that's too dangerous."    Bill Peterson, at least once believe that's too dangerous."    Bill Peterson, at least once
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a year reminds me of that, how grateful he was, that that happened, he a year reminds me of that, how grateful he was, that that happened, he
15:04

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thought Phil was so forceful, he, he thought he could not stand up to Phil, but I could. thought Phil was so forceful, he, he thought he could not stand up to Phil, but I could.
15:12

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Legend has it, amongst the expeditioners, that you said something along the lines of Legend has it, amongst the expeditioners, that you said something along the lines of
15:17

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"Don't be a bloody idiot Phil."  [Dick]  Yes, of course "Don't be a bloody idiot Phil."  [Dick]  Yes, of course
15:25

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[Ingrid]  So what was your impression of Phil Law, overall?  [Dick]  Oh look Phil was, Phil was  [Ingrid]  So what was your impression of Phil Law, overall?  [Dick]  Oh look Phil was, Phil was 
15:32

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probably ideally suited to that job.  He loved it,  he loved every bit of it. probably ideally suited to that job.  He loved it,  he loved every bit of it.
15:36

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But he, he ah, he ah, he gave But he, he ah, he ah, he gave
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everybody, in my opinion, enough rope to hang themselves with, in terms of delegation, everybody, in my opinion, enough rope to hang themselves with, in terms of delegation,
15:49

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running things, I think that, I became running things, I think that, I became
15:55

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a very senior officer in the Commonwealth Public Service, then with the  Senior Executive a very senior officer in the Commonwealth Public Service, then with the  Senior Executive
15:58

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Service, one level below Head of a Department, I largely put that down to my term in the  Service, one level below Head of a Department, I largely put that down to my term in the 
16:05

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Antarctic Division were I was given enough authority, Antarctic Division were I was given enough authority,
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delegated to run, delegated to run my own thing, and he, he was. he was good at that, delegated to run, delegated to run my own thing, and he, he was. he was good at that,
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he had he had
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a very very inquiring mind.   Practically nothing he didn't turn his mind to in terms a very very inquiring mind.   Practically nothing he didn't turn his mind to in terms
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of, of the expedition, of the work of the expedition, of the buildings, of, of the expedition, of the work of the expedition, of the buildings,
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of the clothing.  The clothing was designed by him and it was quite useful and sensible. of the clothing.  The clothing was designed by him and it was quite useful and sensible.
16:42

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He was very good.  He was pretty keen on himself, but um He was very good.  He was pretty keen on himself, but um
16:49

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when I say that Phil liked personal publicity. That's not uncommon. when I say that Phil liked personal publicity. That's not uncommon.
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And, uh, er, I enjoyed, I, I enjoyed without And, uh, er, I enjoyed, I, I enjoyed without
17:05

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any doubt the time I had working with, with, with Phil,  he and I  any doubt the time I had working with, with, with Phil,  he and I 
17:12

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knew each other so well,  we knew each other's knew each other so well,  we knew each other's
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idiosyncrasies, and you know, our little peccadilloes and our things like that. idiosyncrasies, and you know, our little peccadilloes and our things like that.
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There was nothing difficult about Phil, There was nothing difficult about Phil,
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a lot of the problems that he had with the head office in Canberra were a lot of the problems that he had with the head office in Canberra were
17:31

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a self-inflicted wounds, I believe, and because of his, of his a self-inflicted wounds, I believe, and because of his, of his
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intolerance of those people up in Canberra  intolerance of those people up in Canberra 
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with  no scientific background, you know, in inverted commas, and they didn't go out of their way with  no scientific background, you know, in inverted commas, and they didn't go out of their way
17:45

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to chase Phil around.  [Ingrid] You also worked with George Smith to chase Phil around.  [Ingrid] You also worked with George Smith
17:52

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and Fred Jacker, who were well known in ANARE circles.  What did you think of them?  and Fred Jacker, who were well known in ANARE circles.  What did you think of them? 
17:59

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Oh  George Smith was an outstanding person. George Smith was Oh  George Smith was an outstanding person. George Smith was
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a chap, who like many of us, who left school at fourteen a chap, who like many of us, who left school at fourteen
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and had gone to work and whatever, had  called up in the army, didn't volunteer and had gone to work and whatever, had  called up in the army, didn't volunteer
18:13

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we were called up in the army.  Went to New Guinea and the Solomons, Bougainville in an  we were called up in the army.  Went to New Guinea and the Solomons, Bougainville in an 
18:19

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artillery regiment as a driver of a gun tractor. Came back, got artillery regiment as a driver of a gun tractor. Came back, got
18:24

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a local job with the Air Force stores depot, which is a local job with the Air Force stores depot, which is
18:27

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assigned by them for this new Antarctic thing. George had assigned by them for this new Antarctic thing. George had
18:32

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a phenomenal memory, remembered everything,  where things were and packed and so on, like that. He was a phenomenal memory, remembered everything,  where things were and packed and so on, like that. He was
18:39

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outstan.... He was, he had no formal education beyond that fourteen, he's outstan.... He was, he had no formal education beyond that fourteen, he's
18:46

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a man of considerable intelligence and he'd done no post-school study at all but a man of considerable intelligence and he'd done no post-school study at all but
18:53

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he certainly picked up he certainly picked up
18:54

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a great deal from everything that was going on around him, and he had a great deal from everything that was going on around him, and he had
18:57

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a great deal of common sense.  [Ingrid] There are stories that George used to look at the a great deal of common sense.  [Ingrid] There are stories that George used to look at the
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groups, or the expeditioners going down south, and would secretly feed back to you groups, or the expeditioners going down south, and would secretly feed back to you
19:06

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and Phil about whether he thought they were going to be good, or it was going to be and Phil about whether he thought they were going to be good, or it was going to be
19:10

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good year.  Is that correct?   [Dick]  This is true, this is true, this is this is this is this is true. good year.  Is that correct?   [Dick]  This is true, this is true, this is this is this is this is true.
19:16

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We had one chap, we had one chap who,  it used to be very We had one chap, we had one chap who,  it used to be very
19:24

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easily corrupted the system.  Hard word that,  it wasn't really like easily corrupted the system.  Hard word that,  it wasn't really like
19:31

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that but, I would allocate out the people where they would go. I could that but, I would allocate out the people where they would go. I could
19:38

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talk later on about the training regime we instituted talk later on about the training regime we instituted
19:41

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but, so many people would go to  but, so many people would go to 
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Tottenham, so many people would be here and there, and so, one fellow worked this Tottenham, so many people would be here and there, and so, one fellow worked this
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out so he would, he would, I would send him to Tottenham.  I'd think he'd be  out so he would, he would, I would send him to Tottenham.  I'd think he'd be 
19:57

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out there and he'd go and check in with George and say he'd been told to go back to the out there and he'd go and check in with George and say he'd been told to go back to the
20:02

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office where office where
20:03

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a section,  a row, there was some cargo railway yards not so far away where they used casual a section,  a row, there was some cargo railway yards not so far away where they used casual
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labourers , and this bloke used to go and work as labourers , and this bloke used to go and work as
20:10

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a casual labourer, being paid by us, for what have and so on.   George came into town a casual labourer, being paid by us, for what have and so on.   George came into town
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every fortnight on payday, and he and I and Lem Macey would have every fortnight on payday, and he and I and Lem Macey would have
20:23

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a counter lunch and the beer together and we'd talk about the job, and a counter lunch and the beer together and we'd talk about the job, and
20:32

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it's just idle conversation about this chap. You know,  "How's he working George?" "He's  it's just idle conversation about this chap. You know,  "How's he working George?" "He's 
20:36

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supposed to be with you Dick" .  He wasn't with either of us, so yes there was supposed to be with you Dick" .  He wasn't with either of us, so yes there was
20:41

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a lot of feedback between us.  I had, I had the closest, the most harmonious a lot of feedback between us.  I had, I had the closest, the most harmonious
20:48

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working relationship with George Smith.  We were, we were at each other's wedding, working relationship with George Smith.  We were, we were at each other's wedding,
20:55

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very very
20:55

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good friends.  [Ingrid] Did you..[Dick] which was interesting because I, I was in the administrative grade good friends.  [Ingrid] Did you..[Dick] which was interesting because I, I was in the administrative grade
21:01

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I was supposed to be up there, and so on,  George was the bottom of the tree, but he was,  um I've I was supposed to be up there, and so on,  George was the bottom of the tree, but he was,  um I've
21:06

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told this story many times, we, when we came in on pan, pay day,  Phil Law would  often call an told this story many times, we, when we came in on pan, pay day,  Phil Law would  often call an
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impromptu meeting and we sit around with Phil and George and Macey and myself, going impromptu meeting and we sit around with Phil and George and Macey and myself, going
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through things. George we used to unload this back breaking through things. George we used to unload this back breaking
21:26

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work of forty four gallon drums of fuel, to run the diesel engines there.  George at one work of forty four gallon drums of fuel, to run the diesel engines there.  George at one
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stage says "You know", he says "this one brand service station business is coming in, they're stage says "You know", he says "this one brand service station business is coming in, they're
21:37

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pulling out all the 500 gallon tanks underground, underground tanks in the service  pulling out all the 500 gallon tanks underground, underground tanks in the service 
21:40

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stations, so a lot of them are going  surplus.  Try and work out stations, so a lot of them are going  surplus.  Try and work out
21:44

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a way of pumping it ashore," he says "and why don't we do that?"  So we did, and we, we talked  a way of pumping it ashore," he says "and why don't we do that?"  So we did, and we, we talked 
21:51

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to the oil companies and so we, this first time to the oil companies and so we, this first time
21:57

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engineers Frank Smith and George, Frank Smith and George Smith  between them worked out engineers Frank Smith and George, Frank Smith and George Smith  between them worked out
22:01

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a way of pumping from the sh.., at Mawson, Mawson only at this stage, pumping a way of pumping from the sh.., at Mawson, Mawson only at this stage, pumping
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pipeline, of pipes from the ship ,supported by empty drums to the shore. pipeline, of pipes from the ship ,supported by empty drums to the shore.
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So we took down ten or twelve 500 gallon tanks, all fully loaded with fuel, one was empty. So we took down ten or twelve 500 gallon tanks, all fully loaded with fuel, one was empty.
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So we got that ashore, then one after  the other we pumped them ashore, so the So we got that ashore, then one after  the other we pumped them ashore, so the
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George Smith our store man thought of this. Marvellous, you know he's a good lateral thinker. [Ingrid] So George Smith our store man thought of this. Marvellous, you know he's a good lateral thinker. [Ingrid] So
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you would pump the fuel from the full tank,  to the empty tank that was ashore and you would pump the fuel from the full tank,  to the empty tank that was ashore and
22:38

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then the empty tank, which is on the ship but then be transported to shore? [Dick] Yeah.  then the empty tank, which is on the ship but then be transported to shore? [Dick] Yeah. 
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[Ingrid]What's, what year was that?  [Dick]  Ah, that would have been um, that would have been  fifty er [Ingrid]What's, what year was that?  [Dick]  Ah, that would have been um, that would have been  fifty er
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fifty seven.  [Ingrid]  Yep. And what were your, sort of, fuel usage back then? [Dick] What? [Ingrid] What was your fuel fifty seven.  [Ingrid]  Yep. And what were your, sort of, fuel usage back then? [Dick] What? [Ingrid] What was your fuel
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usage back then for the year?  [Dick] Oh, I've got no... uh in terms of bulk ah, we're, we're only talking of Mawson usage back then for the year?  [Dick] Oh, I've got no... uh in terms of bulk ah, we're, we're only talking of Mawson
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and and you know we we had the, the one main engine, and you know, and and and you know we we had the, the one main engine, and you know, and
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there was a spare engine so, but you know, we we did,  we did  take down ten or twelve 500 gallon tanks so you're looking there was a spare engine so, but you know, we we did,  we did  take down ten or twelve 500 gallon tanks so you're looking
23:17

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at 6000 gallons. [Ingrid]Did George have any other innovations? at 6000 gallons. [Ingrid]Did George have any other innovations?
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Yes he did but I can't think of any for the moment, but he certainly, he certainly Yes he did but I can't think of any for the moment, but he certainly, he certainly
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did. [Ingrid] So he was a major contributor to the program? [Dick]  He was a major contributor did. [Ingrid] So he was a major contributor to the program? [Dick]  He was a major contributor
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a significant contributor.  [Ingrid] Did you have much contact with Fred Jacka a significant contributor.  [Ingrid] Did you have much contact with Fred Jacka
23:38

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Not, not as much as I had with George,  we always worked well and harmoniously Not, not as much as I had with George,  we always worked well and harmoniously
23:43

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together, Fred and I, and, I uh, he lived at Eltham and on together, Fred and I, and, I uh, he lived at Eltham and on
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occasions, he'd have evenings at his place, and my wife and I would visit them there and I occasions, he'd have evenings at his place, and my wife and I would visit them there and I
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always got on well with, with Fred. He was, he was a always got on well with, with Fred. He was, he was a
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very very very good physicist, and,  er, and in fact that very very very good physicist, and,  er, and in fact that
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until he went to the Mawson Institute, the newly formed Mawson Institute in Adelaide, until he went to the Mawson Institute, the newly formed Mawson Institute in Adelaide,
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that would have been his sole job, after he left university, he'd been one of  Phil's students. that would have been his sole job, after he left university, he'd been one of  Phil's students.
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He went to Heard Island with the very first  expedition, came back and, ever since, after that, he worked He went to Heard Island with the very first  expedition, came back and, ever since, after that, he worked
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in the office with one  um comptometrist er, as in the office with one  um comptometrist er, as
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people, as women who used to operate adding machines. Ursula La Brente, Mrs Ursula  people, as women who used to operate adding machines. Ursula La Brente, Mrs Ursula 
24:41

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La Brente, and er she was,  had experience in these things, La Brente, and er she was,  had experience in these things,
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it was a highly complicated machine she used to run.  So there she is,  banging  all this it was a highly complicated machine she used to run.  So there she is,  banging  all this
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information about cosmic rays, and then Fred got Jim Valentine, an instrument maker information about cosmic rays, and then Fred got Jim Valentine, an instrument maker
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of outstanding er qualities, and then the second one,  Jim Nesbit. of outstanding er qualities, and then the second one,  Jim Nesbit.
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He staffed,  but of course of all of,  all of the cosray physicists who were going He staffed,  but of course of all of,  all of the cosray physicists who were going
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south would work with with Fred before and after their times there, and he south would work with with Fred before and after their times there, and he
25:16

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was also, you know, running the program at the University of Tasmania where Nod  Parsons and Rob was also, you know, running the program at the University of Tasmania where Nod  Parsons and Rob
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Jacklyn were, so Fred ran, Fred ran all of the upper atmosphere Jacklyn were, so Fred ran, Fred ran all of the upper atmosphere
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physics work and, er, probably, with Phil sticking his nose in, physics work and, er, probably, with Phil sticking his nose in,
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and Phil looked after the biological sciences and and Phil looked after the biological sciences and
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I think Fred might have take, taken that over I think Fred might have take, taken that over
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too, later on as chief scientist. And indeed, in the, the years I'm talking about we too, later on as chief scientist. And indeed, in the, the years I'm talking about we
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always had two, two biologists at Heard and Macquarie Island and they were, involved in seals and penguins always had two, two biologists at Heard and Macquarie Island and they were, involved in seals and penguins
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and every other bit of life that's going on around there. The first, and every other bit of life that's going on around there. The first,
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the first biologist at Macquarie Island,  Ron Kenny was supposed to be writing the life the first biologist at Macquarie Island,  Ron Kenny was supposed to be writing the life
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cycle of um, of elephant seals, and, at the time he went off to the university, the cycle of um, of elephant seals, and, at the time he went off to the university, the
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brand new university of James Cook University at Townsville, he hadn't finished it, so brand new university of James Cook University at Townsville, he hadn't finished it, so
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whether anybody's done the life cycle of elephant seals, I don't know. [Ingrid] And what whether anybody's done the life cycle of elephant seals, I don't know. [Ingrid] And what
26:31

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role did Lem Macey role did Lem Macey
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have within the Antarctic Division? [Dick]  Lem, Lem originally had been a radio operator have within the Antarctic Division? [Dick]  Lem, Lem originally had been a radio operator
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at the Heard Island, and ah, Heard was  at the Heard Island, and ah, Heard was 
26:47

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a bit older than most of the other people.  He'd been, before the shore, before the a bit older than most of the other people.  He'd been, before the shore, before the
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war, he had war, he had
26:54

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a ship's radio operator on the Australian coast.  Mainly in  shipping trawlers  a ship's radio operator on the Australian coast.  Mainly in  shipping trawlers 
26:58

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in fishing trawlers and, so he was used to being at sea in fishing trawlers and, so he was used to being at sea
27:05

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then he'd, he was then he'd, he was
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a member of the citizens' Air Force, which is the Air Force Reserve, and so he a member of the citizens' Air Force, which is the Air Force Reserve, and so he
27:12

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had had
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a pilot licence too, so he was called up immediately, be, be at the start of a pilot licence too, so he was called up immediately, be, be at the start of
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the war and, that because they probably thought he's more valuable as a radio the war and, that because they probably thought he's more valuable as a radio
27:23

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man they, um never made him  man they, um never made him 
27:26

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a pilot, and so he, he became an instructor and a pilot, and so he, he became an instructor and
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a radio technician both in Australia and  a radio technician both in Australia and 
27:34

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in New Guinea and other places, and then, so after in New Guinea and other places, and then, so after
27:42

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a year at Heard, they were back and in the second year at Macquarie Island there was a year at Heard, they were back and in the second year at Macquarie Island there was
27:49

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some problem and uh, there was some problem and uh, there was
27:56

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some personnel problems there, I'm not sure, I'm not sure of it now, because I wasn't there at some personnel problems there, I'm not sure, I'm not sure of it now, because I wasn't there at
28:02

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the time and it was decided that Bob Dovers, who'd been the surveyor at Mawson, at the time and it was decided that Bob Dovers, who'd been the surveyor at Mawson, at
28:09

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Mawson Island in the 1st year, and Lem, should go there.  Two experienced hands to help run the Mawson Island in the 1st year, and Lem, should go there.  Two experienced hands to help run the
28:14

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place and a Norwegian frigate, the St Austell Bay, was still in the area and so they place and a Norwegian frigate, the St Austell Bay, was still in the area and so they
28:20

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went and were dropped off at ah, and they bought off this other chap, who, whether he was ill or went and were dropped off at ah, and they bought off this other chap, who, whether he was ill or
28:26

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whether he was difficult. And so, those two were responsible for fixing the whether he was difficult. And so, those two were responsible for fixing the
28:33

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morale and sorting things out.  Now then, we created the job, morale and sorting things out.  Now then, we created the job,
28:41

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that stage, back in the office, and when I was there, we'd, we'd had no technical people of any that stage, back in the office, and when I was there, we'd, we'd had no technical people of any
28:47

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long, of any standing or long standing, and so we created the job of senior technical long, of any standing or long standing, and so we created the job of senior technical
28:52

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officer, which is officer, which is
28:53

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a rank public service and Lem, who had some job elsewhere in Sydney, joined the a rank public service and Lem, who had some job elsewhere in Sydney, joined the
29:00

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Antarctic Division as Antarctic Division as
29:01

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senior technical officer, where he looked after all the mechanical and the radio senior technical officer, where he looked after all the mechanical and the radio
29:06

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matters and he was very,  very good indeed.  And we, he, so we matters and he was very,  very good indeed.  And we, he, so we
29:14

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became - oh that's our cleaners, I'd forgotten [Ingrid]  Alright we might just have became - oh that's our cleaners, I'd forgotten [Ingrid]  Alright we might just have
29:19

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a quick break. a quick break.