Your Progress
In this transcript, you have edited

0 lines

Out of 298 available lines
0:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So, good morning. My name is Hamish Sewell and I'm speaking with Douglas. Douglas, what's your last name, Dougie. Wilson. Dougie Wilson? Douglas Wilson. Middle name? Richard. Douglas Wilson. Richard Wilson. Today's date is the 2nd of May 2016. We're here at Manshine 2016 at Lake Somerset. So, good morning. My name is Hamish Sewell and I'm speaking with Douglas. Douglas, what's your last name, Dougie. Wilson. Dougie Wilson? Douglas Wilson. Middle name? Richard. Douglas Wilson. Richard Wilson. Today's date is the 2nd of May 2016. We're here at Manshine 2016 at Lake Somerset.
0:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And Dougie, you've come in here because you wanna talk with me about the last three years and your connection with men's work. Where would you want to start? And Dougie, you've come in here because you wanna talk with me about the last three years and your connection with men's work. Where would you want to start?
0:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I guess I started. I guess I started.
0:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Developing a interest with men's work once I I met Rob Clark. Developing a interest with men's work once I I met Rob Clark.
0:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I moved to the Sunshine Coast and. I moved to the Sunshine Coast and.
0:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Landed in Crystal Waters. Landed in Crystal Waters.
0:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yep, and he invited me along to his men's group. Yep, and he invited me along to his men's group.
0:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I'm like, what the hell is men's group? And I'm like, what the hell is men's group?
0:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

He's like just come along and find out. So I was kind of. He's like just come along and find out. So I was kind of.
0:60

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Flying blind and not really knowing and and I was at an interesting point in my life. I was early 30s. Flying blind and not really knowing and and I was at an interesting point in my life. I was early 30s.
1:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I'd come from a a a culture of of umm And I'd come from a a a culture of of umm
1:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I guess the the rights of passage was was alcoholism, was partying and you know, hanging out with your mates and doing dares and [Douglas]  that was northern Sydney[Hamish]. Northern Sydney, near the suburbs, no the beaches sorry[Douglas]. What's a, what's a Dez? [Hamish] I guess the the rights of passage was was alcoholism, was partying and you know, hanging out with your mates and doing dares and [Douglas]  that was northern Sydney[Hamish]. Northern Sydney, near the suburbs, no the beaches sorry[Douglas]. What's a, what's a Dez? [Hamish]
1:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Dares you know like [Douglas] dares [Hamish], daring, daring your mates to go, go on mate I dare ya. I dare ya to do that, you know, go on jump. See if you can, you know, surf the top of that car for like 2 kilometres [laughs]  or something like that. You know crazy shit like that. Did you surf tops of cars for 2 kilometres? Not really, but I'm just using that as an example or like we do risky things with our lives to, um, see who had the courage and the guts and the, um, you know, whether you're a man or not to to do those kind of things. That was Dares you know like [Douglas] dares [Hamish], daring, daring your mates to go, go on mate I dare ya. I dare ya to do that, you know, go on jump. See if you can, you know, surf the top of that car for like 2 kilometres [laughs]  or something like that. You know crazy shit like that. Did you surf tops of cars for 2 kilometres? Not really, but I'm just using that as an example or like we do risky things with our lives to, um, see who had the courage and the guts and the, um, you know, whether you're a man or not to to do those kind of things. That was
1:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That was our. That was our.
2:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That the world that I came from and then when I landed in in the hinterland of the Sunshine Coast, life was very different. You know, it's all about nature and permaculture and and community and and all this stuff. And I I really felt I wasn't fitting in. That the world that I came from and then when I landed in in the hinterland of the Sunshine Coast, life was very different. You know, it's all about nature and permaculture and and community and and all this stuff. And I I really felt I wasn't fitting in.
2:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was finding it really difficult to. I was finding it really difficult to.
2:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

To, um. To, um.
2:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Hit the ground running kind of thing. Yeah. And I really wanted to make it work. I'd I'd gotten to a point in my life where I was getting it, I was. I was starting to get frustrated with with who I who I've become. Hit the ground running kind of thing. Yeah. And I really wanted to make it work. I'd I'd gotten to a point in my life where I was getting it, I was. I was starting to get frustrated with with who I who I've become.
2:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Like I've had this general sense of not fitting in. Like I've had this general sense of not fitting in.
2:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And then men's group, Rob er Clark, yeah he, he invited me to come along and I came along and I, I had no idea what the what was going on. So which men's group were we talking about. It was um Mulaney men's group. It was an open men's group and it's um it's been a really, um. And then men's group, Rob er Clark, yeah he, he invited me to come along and I came along and I, I had no idea what the what was going on. So which men's group were we talking about. It was um Mulaney men's group. It was an open men's group and it's um it's been a really, um.
2:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

An entry point to men's work for me and and personal growth at a at a really tangible concrete level which has been extremely supportive. An entry point to men's work for me and and personal growth at a at a really tangible concrete level which has been extremely supportive.
3:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and has helped me develop skills that I really find extremely useful in this world that I'm that I'm living in. And and has helped me develop skills that I really find extremely useful in this world that I'm that I'm living in.
3:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So can I kind of pull back a bit and ask you? So can I kind of pull back a bit and ask you?
3:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Where you were at in your life when you came to the Sunshine Coast, why did you come to the Sunshine Coast as well? So that both those questions. Ohh living in the northern beaches of Sydney, I was working in a night shift job and I was not happy. I was really missing connection with with people. Where you were at in your life when you came to the Sunshine Coast, why did you come to the Sunshine Coast as well? So that both those questions. Ohh living in the northern beaches of Sydney, I was working in a night shift job and I was not happy. I was really missing connection with with people.
3:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Working night shift. All my mates were working during the day, um and I I just wasn't connecting and there was no connection and not with myself either. I was Working night shift. All my mates were working during the day, um and I I just wasn't connecting and there was no connection and not with myself either. I was
3:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Suffering a lot of resentment and um a lot of unexpressed feelings and emotions towards my family. I knew what was going on and and I had the the fantastic story, but I'd never connected with it emotionally. What's the fantastic story? Suffering a lot of resentment and um a lot of unexpressed feelings and emotions towards my family. I knew what was going on and and I had the the fantastic story, but I'd never connected with it emotionally. What's the fantastic story?
4:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Fantastic story I guess everyone has a fantastic story and and mines basically the the trauma story of um, of my parents separating when I was when I was a young boy when I was 7, and Fantastic story I guess everyone has a fantastic story and and mines basically the the trauma story of um, of my parents separating when I was when I was a young boy when I was 7, and
4:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because you were brought up by your mum, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, I I brought up. I was brought up with mum. Because you were brought up by your mum, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, I I brought up. I was brought up with mum.
4:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And. And.
4:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was the man of the house, you know. I was given the authority to be the man of the house. I was the man of the house, you know. I was given the authority to be the man of the house.
4:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But I was also. But I was also.
4:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Not the man of the house. I was a boy, so there was this confusion there too, cause having the responsibility of being the man of the house, I'd make boy decisions and then was Not the man of the house. I was a boy, so there was this confusion there too, cause having the responsibility of being the man of the house, I'd make boy decisions and then was
4:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Kind of emasculated for those decisions. No, that's not how you do it. Like, that's wrong. Why did you do that? So who set you up, though? Who set you up with this idea that you had to be the man of the house? It was Kind of emasculated for those decisions. No, that's not how you do it. Like, that's wrong. Why did you do that? So who set you up, though? Who set you up with this idea that you had to be the man of the house? It was
5:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

My mother. My mother.
5:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So there was this this kind of like. So there was this this kind of like.
5:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Unsurety. Unsurety.
5:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Coming through I I had my father was not there he he lived with himself and er and then he found a another wife, um and they got married and and um that experience was also traumatic for me because she didn't really Coming through I I had my father was not there he he lived with himself and er and then he found a another wife, um and they got married and and um that experience was also traumatic for me because she didn't really
5:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Want me in her life Want me in her life
5:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

She made it really difficult for me to actually be in and around her. She made it really difficult for me to actually be in and around her.
5:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I struggled with that because I wanted to be around my dad. I really loved my dad. So when I was faced with this, this woman that just didn't want my existence around and made me uncomfortable and my sister And I struggled with that because I wanted to be around my dad. I really loved my dad. So when I was faced with this, this woman that just didn't want my existence around and made me uncomfortable and my sister
6:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I didn't know how to stand my ground because I felt if I did stand my ground I didn't know how to stand my ground because I felt if I did stand my ground
6:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I would threaten the connection between my father and I, and all I wanted to do was just love my dad. I would threaten the connection between my father and I, and all I wanted to do was just love my dad.
6:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and and I didn't. And and and I didn't.
6:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I wasn't able to don't connect to that way. And at the same time you had a very kind of close relationship with your mother, which was sometimes not always brilliant, was it? No, yeah, no, it had its had its moments. Yeah. She she dated er a man for 10 years, which was actually the man that I wasn't able to don't connect to that way. And at the same time you had a very kind of close relationship with your mother, which was sometimes not always brilliant, was it? No, yeah, no, it had its had its moments. Yeah. She she dated er a man for 10 years, which was actually the man that
6:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

She um became intimate with and whilst my father was and her were together. She um became intimate with and whilst my father was and her were together.
6:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And then er And then er
6:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I had I had
6:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

A really difficult time with him when he decided to show up from time to time. A really difficult time with him when he decided to show up from time to time.
6:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And um And um
6:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I had a lot of insight as a kid too in into that relationship and I would kind of talk to my mum about that and be her I had a lot of insight as a kid too in into that relationship and I would kind of talk to my mum about that and be her
7:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Her confidant. Her, even her councillor in a sense, at a young age. And um she it was like she she wouldn't listen to me as well, she would hear me, but Her confidant. Her, even her councillor in a sense, at a young age. And um she it was like she she wouldn't listen to me as well, she would hear me, but
7:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was. She would have her own It was. She would have her own
7:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Own experience, and and there would be a a bit of a an uncomfortable kind of setup there. Like a disempowerment, definitely from my part. Because I didn't feel validated, I didn't feel like anything I'd say mean meant anything. Own experience, and and there would be a a bit of a an uncomfortable kind of setup there. Like a disempowerment, definitely from my part. Because I didn't feel validated, I didn't feel like anything I'd say mean meant anything.
7:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So you decided to come up to the Sunshine Coast and at what point did you decide to come? And why the Sunshine Coast? I met a girl So you decided to come up to the Sunshine Coast and at what point did you decide to come? And why the Sunshine Coast? I met a girl
7:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

A German backpacker and um, she was footloose and fancy free and she was um, quite exciting, for me at the time. A German backpacker and um, she was footloose and fancy free and she was um, quite exciting, for me at the time.
7:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And had prospects of of a new life and she said she wanted to move to the Sunshine Coast and make make a home and life up there. And had prospects of of a new life and she said she wanted to move to the Sunshine Coast and make make a home and life up there.
8:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I'd always had a a romantic connection I guess with the Sunshine Coast because it's it's er not as cold as Sydney environmental geographically um, and the the weather patterns are quite nice and there's surf here and there's beautiful nature and it's quite, there was a calling there from from my from my heart and soul. And I'd always had a a romantic connection I guess with the Sunshine Coast because it's it's er not as cold as Sydney environmental geographically um, and the the weather patterns are quite nice and there's surf here and there's beautiful nature and it's quite, there was a calling there from from my from my heart and soul.
8:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So she decided to come to the Sunshine Coast. Was it she who decided to go to Crystal Waters? Yeah, she had all this already pre planned before she met me and we kind of connected one summer of 2000 and So she decided to come to the Sunshine Coast. Was it she who decided to go to Crystal Waters? Yeah, she had all this already pre planned before she met me and we kind of connected one summer of 2000 and
8:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

13 or 12. 2012 actually I met her 13 or 12. 2012 actually I met her
8:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Around the end of the mine calendar. Around the end of the mine calendar.
8:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was all very um, synchronistic. Right. And so I I kind of believed in that that synchronicity and I thought this must be fate. It was all very um, synchronistic. Right. And so I I kind of believed in that that synchronicity and I thought this must be fate.
8:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I followed a hunch. And you you, so you followed this woman up to the Sunshine Coast and and I met you at the Millennium Mens group. I can remember you arriving there. What was it like for you when you walked into this group of of men? Rob had said come along and you came along. What was that first, you know memory like for you? I followed a hunch. And you you, so you followed this woman up to the Sunshine Coast and and I met you at the Millennium Mens group. I can remember you arriving there. What was it like for you when you walked into this group of of men? Rob had said come along and you came along. What was that first, you know memory like for you?
9:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was somewhat like exciting and and also I was extremely nervous and and um It was somewhat like exciting and and also I was extremely nervous and and um
9:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yeah, I I didn't know what to expect. You know, I had this real sense of like this. This is important. This is something that I I really want to participate in. Yeah, I I didn't know what to expect. You know, I had this real sense of like this. This is important. This is something that I I really want to participate in.
9:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And. And.
9:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Once I I came and sat in that circle and put my, laid my eyes on you and the rest of the men. I'm like, wow, this is, this is powerful, this is there's something here for me. Once I I came and sat in that circle and put my, laid my eyes on you and the rest of the men. I'm like, wow, this is, this is powerful, this is there's something here for me.
9:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And as I fumbled my way through that first meeting and interrupted and And as I fumbled my way through that first meeting and interrupted and
9:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It it was kind of like driving a car for the first time. You know, like crunching gears and failing the turning. Ohh, they're not breaking too early or not accelerating too fast around corners. So did you feel there were a few guidelines and rules that you had to sort of work out? It it was kind of like driving a car for the first time. You know, like crunching gears and failing the turning. Ohh, they're not breaking too early or not accelerating too fast around corners. So did you feel there were a few guidelines and rules that you had to sort of work out?
10:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yeah, which I found difficult. I'm not used to rules and guidelines in my life. I'm quite free and Yeah, which I found difficult. I'm not used to rules and guidelines in my life. I'm quite free and
10:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Bit of a Bit of a
10:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I I think I'm a bit of a rogue. So that was, that really pulled me in and and gave me some discipline and boundaries to I I think I'm a bit of a rogue. So that was, that really pulled me in and and gave me some discipline and boundaries to
10:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Healthy ones to be able to connect with other people and other men particularly. What sort of rules and boundaries are we talking about? Healthy ones to be able to connect with other people and other men particularly. What sort of rules and boundaries are we talking about?
10:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Like when someone's holding the talking stick that they have the floor and and that's um, Like when someone's holding the talking stick that they have the floor and and that's um,
10:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

To not interrupt another man when he's speaking, and to to be present with with another man when he is speaking and then To not interrupt another man when he's speaking, and to to be present with with another man when he is speaking and then
10:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I didn't quite get that in the beginning. I didn't quite get that in the beginning.
10:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That once it became my turn. That once it became my turn.
11:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

To have that that, I guess it's a power in a sense, you know. To have that that, I guess it's a power in a sense, you know.
11:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I started to unpack the gifts from that and I'm like, wow, this is actually the first time I've been heard. I started to unpack the gifts from that and I'm like, wow, this is actually the first time I've been heard.
11:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

By other men like and and whatever's inside of me is coming out and I'm hearing it for the first time. By other men like and and whatever's inside of me is coming out and I'm hearing it for the first time.
11:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In a in a in a tangible, real way. And and that was really, really empowering for me because I had a lot of stories and a lot of stuff that I'd never really connected with, um, and and I was excited by that and and I found the experience extremely validating for me. In a in a in a tangible, real way. And and that was really, really empowering for me because I had a lot of stories and a lot of stuff that I'd never really connected with, um, and and I was excited by that and and I found the experience extremely validating for me.
11:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it was all pretty quick, wasn't it, from there. They're, they're, you know, I think it was within a month by the time you had first arrived that And it was all pretty quick, wasn't it, from there. They're, they're, you know, I think it was within a month by the time you had first arrived that
11:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That it all sort of took a new course didn't it? Sure did. So what happens now. So um, the call came out to come to a man showing gathering um, and Rob Clark was a he was on that committee for that year and he and at the time I I wasn't working. I didn't have much money um, coming in. None at all really. So I didn't have much means of getting there. I had a desire, um, and I didn't know how to, and Rob um, That it all sort of took a new course didn't it? Sure did. So what happens now. So um, the call came out to come to a man showing gathering um, and Rob Clark was a he was on that committee for that year and he and at the time I I wasn't working. I didn't have much money um, coming in. None at all really. So I didn't have much means of getting there. I had a desire, um, and I didn't know how to, and Rob um,
12:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Suggested that I be a volunteer and support him in the creation process of of getting that man shine to the to the Gathering. Suggested that I be a volunteer and support him in the creation process of of getting that man shine to the to the Gathering.
12:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

With these committee and I really enjoyed that I I got to make tribal group banners and With these committee and I really enjoyed that I I got to make tribal group banners and
12:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Helped set up on the day and and all that and even that experience was was daunting in itself as well. I didn't know what I was getting into. This was like a men's group on steroids. Helped set up on the day and and all that and even that experience was was daunting in itself as well. I didn't know what I was getting into. This was like a men's group on steroids.
12:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And you're in with a whole lot of fellows who who are pretty familiar with these sorts of situations and they've got families and businesses and lives and And you're in with a whole lot of fellows who who are pretty familiar with these sorts of situations and they've got families and businesses and lives and
13:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

A much more sort of a depth of understanding of where where everything fits in, I suppose with that, and you're you're sort of thrown into that. A much more sort of a depth of understanding of where where everything fits in, I suppose with that, and you're you're sort of thrown into that.
13:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

What was that like? What was that like?
13:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yeah, like a like a fish out of water. Yeah, like a like a fish out of water.
13:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I would say. I would say.
13:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But you never felt I'm I'm forgive me for interrupting you but you never I'd sense that you never felt But you never felt I'm I'm forgive me for interrupting you but you never I'd sense that you never felt
13:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Intimidated. No, no. I've been in much. Intimidated. No, no. I've been in much.
13:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In my experience in life, I've always gone to the edge. In my experience in life, I've always gone to the edge.
13:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The edge of what's possible, the the extremes. To to know how I feel about situations, like The edge of what's possible, the the extremes. To to know how I feel about situations, like
13:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I've lived in four different states in Australia and I've I've served in a bottle shop in Darwin, like in in Parap and if you know that area it's, you know there's a community of indigenous living just around the corner. So like, um,  I think I've seen quite a lot, you know, and and been to places that have quite scary. I've lived in four different states in Australia and I've I've served in a bottle shop in Darwin, like in in Parap and if you know that area it's, you know there's a community of indigenous living just around the corner. So like, um,  I think I've seen quite a lot, you know, and and been to places that have quite scary.
14:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So coming to to Manshine was actually somewhat So coming to to Manshine was actually somewhat
14:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Not scary, but also different, different kind of scary. It was the scary of the in...inner world for me that I hadn't really connected with, that I found where these other men had. So there was a level, a level of depth Not scary, but also different, different kind of scary. It was the scary of the in...inner world for me that I hadn't really connected with, that I found where these other men had. So there was a level, a level of depth
14:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That I was out of my depth with. Hmm. So you were being asked to go to new places? Yes. And you recognise that they were probably healthy, but that was still challenging in its own way. Ohh yeah, definitely. It's like I'd been learning in my life. I've only played like a piano and only the middle part. That I was out of my depth with. Hmm. So you were being asked to go to new places? Yes. And you recognise that they were probably healthy, but that was still challenging in its own way. Ohh yeah, definitely. It's like I'd been learning in my life. I've only played like a piano and only the middle part.
14:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And men's group actually, manshine and this work it enabled me to to learn how to play the whole. And men's group actually, manshine and this work it enabled me to to learn how to play the whole.
15:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Whole like see the whole keyboard to start with and it's like ohh, what does that do Ding what does that do Ding. So it's like this this new spectrum came through of depth and and that was er, by invitation it wasn't by force. I didn't have to feel like if I didn't make measure up. Whole like see the whole keyboard to start with and it's like ohh, what does that do Ding what does that do Ding. So it's like this this new spectrum came through of depth and and that was er, by invitation it wasn't by force. I didn't have to feel like if I didn't make measure up.
15:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You know it would be any lesser, lesser of a man. So it was You know it would be any lesser, lesser of a man. So it was
15:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

A beautiful experience for me because it's like, alright, this is where we're going to go. Are you going to go there? A beautiful experience for me because it's like, alright, this is where we're going to go. Are you going to go there?
15:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and that's been my my journey in in a nutshell. And and that's been my my journey in in a nutshell.
15:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because I like going there. Because I like going there.
15:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Like finding those edges. Like finding those edges.
15:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And can I ask what some of those edges have been? Sure. Sure. And can I ask what some of those edges have been? Sure. Sure.
15:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In particular the the the Manshine Committee. In particular the the the Manshine Committee.
15:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

2000 and er, 13. So, so you signed up on the same committee as I did in 2013. We did, Yep. And and that was after we'd both been to that first Manshine in 2013. 2000 and er, 13. So, so you signed up on the same committee as I did in 2013. We did, Yep. And and that was after we'd both been to that first Manshine in 2013.
16:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yes. And there's there's that process at the end where they ask for people to step forward and and to become part of the next year's committee. That's right. Yeah. To to to build the the, the, the gathering in 2014. So that was one of the the things that that took you to the edge. Yes. And there's there's that process at the end where they ask for people to step forward and and to become part of the next year's committee. That's right. Yeah. To to to build the the, the, the gathering in 2014. So that was one of the the things that that took you to the edge.
16:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yes, it it most certainly did. It gave me Yes, it it most certainly did. It gave me
16:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The awareness and the insight that I'd been looking for wisdom outside of myself. The awareness and the insight that I'd been looking for wisdom outside of myself.
16:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it showed me that And it showed me that
16:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's all inside. It's it's all here. Anything I need is I've just gotta instead of asking for it outside, I need to ask for it inside. And that was powerful. That was a hugely empowering experience, just that one piece of wisdom. But I'm not sure though how that connects. When you say that you, you know, you you. It's all inside. It's it's all here. Anything I need is I've just gotta instead of asking for it outside, I need to ask for it inside. And that was powerful. That was a hugely empowering experience, just that one piece of wisdom. But I'm not sure though how that connects. When you say that you, you know, you you.
17:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You go to the edge and you say that's an example of going to the edge. It's a small part because it's so deep to another place. And and you you mentioned wisdom there. So what's that working in that committee got to do with that? Well, to me wisdom is applied knowledge. So it's knowing something and then acting on it. OK, so You go to the edge and you say that's an example of going to the edge. It's a small part because it's so deep to another place. And and you you mentioned wisdom there. So what's that working in that committee got to do with that? Well, to me wisdom is applied knowledge. So it's knowing something and then acting on it. OK, so
17:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I actually I actually
17:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

didn't quite feel confident or not confident, but trusted myself to be able to to do the things that I really wanted to do, like stand up in front of a a bunch of didn't quite feel confident or not confident, but trusted myself to be able to to do the things that I really wanted to do, like stand up in front of a a bunch of
17:36

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

120 men and and sing to them. 120 men and and sing to them.
17:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Not drinking alcohol, you know, that was a huge thing for me because I loved singing, but it was mainly like I hung out in karaoke bars and stuff like that and and um, I'd always need a drink or two to to kind of get the get my mojo happening. But what I found was Not drinking alcohol, you know, that was a huge thing for me because I loved singing, but it was mainly like I hung out in karaoke bars and stuff like that and and um, I'd always need a drink or two to to kind of get the get my mojo happening. But what I found was
17:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

With that gathering, I I didn't need to do that. I knew that on some level that that wasn't required anymore and it was like a that was my own kind of rights of passage that I took for myself to do that and With that gathering, I I didn't need to do that. I knew that on some level that that wasn't required anymore and it was like a that was my own kind of rights of passage that I took for myself to do that and
18:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I had such a great time doing it and I got the reflection that that was a really great thing to do. And that's almost And I had such a great time doing it and I got the reflection that that was a really great thing to do. And that's almost
18:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

A separate process and being on the committee though, isn't it because the committee were a group of fellows who came together A separate process and being on the committee though, isn't it because the committee were a group of fellows who came together
18:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

To achieve the goal of pulling off a successful men's gathering. But what you're talking about there is is being in a a big group of men. Hmm. And being recognised for whatever it is that you wanted to express. That's right, yeah. Which has been a challenge for me in my life. To achieve the goal of pulling off a successful men's gathering. But what you're talking about there is is being in a a big group of men. Hmm. And being recognised for whatever it is that you wanted to express. That's right, yeah. Which has been a challenge for me in my life.
18:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That, of all, not always, but I I've haven't had the awareness that That, of all, not always, but I I've haven't had the awareness that
18:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

To do something. To do something.
18:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Don't do it for an outcome. Like, don't do it for the reward. Just do it for the joy. Do it for love. Like for the love of doing it and and Don't do it for an outcome. Like, don't do it for the reward. Just do it for the joy. Do it for love. Like for the love of doing it and and
19:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That shift in mindset or or even heart set in a sense has really That shift in mindset or or even heart set in a sense has really
19:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Opened up this this this new me. Opened up this this this new me.
19:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Of of just kind of giving from a place of no expectation or it is giving from no expectation. Of of just kind of giving from a place of no expectation or it is giving from no expectation.
19:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and with that that awareness now. That's how I meet everyone and and I meet these men in this group. I just like to give from that place, you know whether there's flow back or not. I mean it's nice when you get when you can receive too but there's there's not that attachment or that that um, And and with that that awareness now. That's how I meet everyone and and I meet these men in this group. I just like to give from that place, you know whether there's flow back or not. I mean it's nice when you get when you can receive too but there's there's not that attachment or that that um,
19:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

There's no agenda there anymore. So that was an edge for you then being able to sort of put yourself out publicly and sing in public. And I have this image of you. There's no agenda there anymore. So that was an edge for you then being able to sort of put yourself out publicly and sing in public. And I have this image of you.
19:56

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I think on one of the I think on one of the
19:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Performance nights at that first gathering. That was the 2013 Gathering. Performance nights at that first gathering. That was the 2013 Gathering.
20:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I have this image of you with everyone there in front of you and you just belting something out and having this huge grin on your face. And I have this image of you with everyone there in front of you and you just belting something out and having this huge grin on your face.
20:12

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It was a lovely image, really lovely. And you know, I'm reminded of that last night too, where, you know, it's all died down a bit and you picked up the microphone and and did you know, beautiful number just belting it out. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of my throat's a little bit raspy today. Yeah, but It was a lovely image, really lovely. And you know, I'm reminded of that last night too, where, you know, it's all died down a bit and you picked up the microphone and and did you know, beautiful number just belting it out. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of my throat's a little bit raspy today. Yeah, but
20:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That's that's one element that's really that really speaks to me that's that's been a, if I could conquer anything it would be that that kind of fear of of That's that's one element that's really that really speaks to me that's that's been a, if I could conquer anything it would be that that kind of fear of of
20:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Really being seen for who I am. Really being seen for who I am.
20:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Excuse me. It's Excuse me. It's
20:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Finding expression. Finding expression.
20:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Where there's been suppression. Where there's been suppression.
20:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and from my my journey, I've noticed that I've haven't always had the courage to speak up, particularly from my my childhood experiences. And and from my my journey, I've noticed that I've haven't always had the courage to speak up, particularly from my my childhood experiences.
21:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So. So.
21:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Dissolving that that bubble of fear is is like a daily thing for me and it becomes easier and easier. Dissolving that that bubble of fear is is like a daily thing for me and it becomes easier and easier.
21:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and thanks to to men's group and manshine where there's a a vehicle here that's available to me to be able to, I can drive to that destination. And and thanks to to men's group and manshine where there's a a vehicle here that's available to me to be able to, I can drive to that destination.
21:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So how's it giving you that confidence? So how's it giving you that confidence?
21:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Through the, through the process, through the, through the the Through the, through the process, through the, through the the
21:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

The ability to to share what's what's on my mind without interruption or what's in my heart space. Cause cause I'm hearing or I'm seeing maybe [Hamish] less interruption [Douglas]. Yeah. Alright, point taken. You want to keep on saying something? I do, I do. And I think what it is is because of that that those common ground like rules that are there that really supports me to connect with that deeper part of myself. The ability to to share what's what's on my mind without interruption or what's in my heart space. Cause cause I'm hearing or I'm seeing maybe [Hamish] less interruption [Douglas]. Yeah. Alright, point taken. You want to keep on saying something? I do, I do. And I think what it is is because of that that those common ground like rules that are there that really supports me to connect with that deeper part of myself.
21:60

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and that feeling place, it's like, well actually do feel like sharing something here. Instead of like, I've got something but it doesn't matter you know? I guess my self worth has increased and developed through this process. And and that feeling place, it's like, well actually do feel like sharing something here. Instead of like, I've got something but it doesn't matter you know? I guess my self worth has increased and developed through this process.
22:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Enables me to tell you to shut up sometimes. Hmm, sure, sure. And have there been some difficult moments on that road with the men's work? Yeah, you. Because you did mention edge. You mentioned edge before, and that's why I'm just. The edge is definitely that uncomfortable place. I guess it's where there's a point where Enables me to tell you to shut up sometimes. Hmm, sure, sure. And have there been some difficult moments on that road with the men's work? Yeah, you. Because you did mention edge. You mentioned edge before, and that's why I'm just. The edge is definitely that uncomfortable place. I guess it's where there's a point where
22:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I'm seeing the fear. I'm seeing the fear.
22:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and the fear is kind of like a pool, right? And and the fear is kind of like a pool, right?
22:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and then there's the the, the choice of, do I wanna go for a swim or do I wanna just stay dry and and and move to higher ground. Safe. Yeah. Safe. Yeah. So that, that edge is like it's dipping my toe into the fear and it's like, no, that doesn't feel really good. I might just, you know, I'm going to go for a bushwalk and and have a good time. And and then there's the the, the choice of, do I wanna go for a swim or do I wanna just stay dry and and and move to higher ground. Safe. Yeah. Safe. Yeah. So that, that edge is like it's dipping my toe into the fear and it's like, no, that doesn't feel really good. I might just, you know, I'm going to go for a bushwalk and and have a good time.
23:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because for in my life, I felt like I've been sucked into that fear and then taken in that. Because for in my life, I felt like I've been sucked into that fear and then taken in that.
23:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That experience and and felt disempowered from that. So now I feel like I've got more choice and clarity of mind to be able to choose where I want to go. That experience and and felt disempowered from that. So now I feel like I've got more choice and clarity of mind to be able to choose where I want to go.
23:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it's not from the effect of the world outside, it's it's what's happening on the inner terrain. And it's not from the effect of the world outside, it's it's what's happening on the inner terrain.
23:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So where are you now in your life, Dougie? It's three years since you started So where are you now in your life, Dougie? It's three years since you started
23:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Men's work. Men's work.
23:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and here we are at Manchin 2016. You and I haven't really seen each other now for probably the best part of, umm, you know, we've seen each other a little bit. And [Melanie?] And and here we are at Manchin 2016. You and I haven't really seen each other now for probably the best part of, umm, you know, we've seen each other a little bit. And [Melanie?]
23:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But. But.
23:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That was the gathering in 2014 that we were involved in. I came around and helped you paint your house. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, you did. Yeah. That was the gathering in 2014 that we were involved in. I came around and helped you paint your house. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, you did. Yeah.
24:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

In between them, yeah. Yeah. In between them, yeah. Yeah.
24:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Where do we go from here? Where do we go from here?
24:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I've been on a a after those gatherings. I've been on a a after those gatherings.
24:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That we were on that committee for I, I felt. That we were on that committee for I, I felt.
24:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because I was on another committee at the same time, but we won't go into that, but. Because I was on another committee at the same time, but we won't go into that, but.
24:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I experienced burnout. I I really did. I I felt. I experienced burnout. I I really did. I I felt.
24:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Like my my, my exterior world needed some some real attention. Like my my, my exterior world needed some some real attention.
24:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Needed to tend my my own world. Needed to tend my my own world.
24:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because I was focusing so much on the inner world, um so it was, I I just wanted to to have my own space. I wanted to have my own Because I was focusing so much on the inner world, um so it was, I I just wanted to to have my own space. I wanted to have my own
24:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Bring through all the gifts that I learn and and implement them into my into my world, um Bring through all the gifts that I learn and and implement them into my into my world, um
24:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I and I I And I and I I
24:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I turned my back on on the men's work. I turned my back on, on the process. I felt I turned my back on on the men's work. I turned my back on, on the process. I felt
25:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I I
25:02

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Needed to. Needed to.
25:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But now, from where I sit today, that probably was no, it was not a good decision to to make. But now, from where I sit today, that probably was no, it was not a good decision to to make.
25:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I I really did actually need to to stay connected. I I really did actually need to to stay connected.
25:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because I had a relationship with a woman and and I Because I had a relationship with a woman and and I
25:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I abandoned myself. I abandoned myself.
25:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

For her. For her.
25:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

She had all this new different way of of living and being and and it sounded great, but I found that I wasn't being validated for my experience that I'd had in in a She had all this new different way of of living and being and and it sounded great, but I found that I wasn't being validated for my experience that I'd had in in a
25:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

There wasn't a a resonance there. There wasn't a a resonance there.
25:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

She had an adverse adversity to men's work. She had an adverse adversity to men's work.
25:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And didn't see it was empowering to talk about your problems and And didn't see it was empowering to talk about your problems and
25:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I guess she didn't fully appreciate the what where we go to as men in in circle. And I guess she didn't fully appreciate the what where we go to as men in in circle.
25:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's not all about problems, you know. There there is empowerment there. There is It's not all about problems, you know. There there is empowerment there. There is
25:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Clarity of mind there. And there is also this, this connection that is created where we we connect back into the to the, to the group. Clarity of mind there. And there is also this, this connection that is created where we we connect back into the to the, to the group.
26:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Even if it is a small group, we we remind ourselves of of our humanness and I think that's really important because it it tops us up and we can take that back to the to the relationship and I just wasn't doing that. Even if it is a small group, we we remind ourselves of of our humanness and I think that's really important because it it tops us up and we can take that back to the to the relationship and I just wasn't doing that.
26:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Was constantly running on empty and and Was constantly running on empty and and
26:27

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I didn't know how to fill back up. And I didn't know how to fill back up.
26:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

By myself. By myself.
26:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I forget the phrase that you used just before, just just a couple of minutes ago, but it was something along the lines of um, you know you felt that you weren't And I forget the phrase that you used just before, just just a couple of minutes ago, but it was something along the lines of um, you know you felt that you weren't
26:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You felt that you weren't able to You felt that you weren't able to
26:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Sort of be of service to yourself or that you gave too much of yourself. You abandoned yourself, you abandoned yourself. I mean, I I'm wondering if that's not a common theme that I see with a lot of us fellows in in in the group where we're in a relationship, primarily, I'm I'm thinking of kind of heterosexual relationships here. And there's a sense that we want to do right. We want to be strong. We want to be decent. We want to step up and sort of be this thing in this relationship. Sort of be of service to yourself or that you gave too much of yourself. You abandoned yourself, you abandoned yourself. I mean, I I'm wondering if that's not a common theme that I see with a lot of us fellows in in in the group where we're in a relationship, primarily, I'm I'm thinking of kind of heterosexual relationships here. And there's a sense that we want to do right. We want to be strong. We want to be decent. We want to step up and sort of be this thing in this relationship.
27:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But it it just But it it just
27:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Doesn't seem to sort of work that way. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Doesn't seem to sort of work that way. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.
27:26

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it's And it's
27:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Absolutely true for me in that regards. I find myself, I found myself Absolutely true for me in that regards. I find myself, I found myself
27:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Wanting to give as much as I could to that person. Wanting to give as much as I could to that person.
27:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And And
27:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Had, she had the the desire or the preference that she wanted to to be the woman in in that experience Had, she had the the desire or the preference that she wanted to to be the woman in in that experience
27:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But there was definitely a um But there was definitely a um
27:50

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

A role reversal. She was the main breadwinner and I was kind of maintaining all of her world and, and I found that that there was an imbalance there. Because anytime, I struggled with it, I really struggled. A role reversal. She was the main breadwinner and I was kind of maintaining all of her world and, and I found that that there was an imbalance there. Because anytime, I struggled with it, I really struggled.
28:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Doing Doing
28:07

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Doing all the doing while she was being Doing all the doing while she was being
28:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Doing her being. Doing her being.
28:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And, there there was like there was no glue there between us, it it kept fragmenting. And, there there was like there was no glue there between us, it it kept fragmenting.
28:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Further and further in it, and I believe if there was a connection that I had with my men, I I would have Further and further in it, and I believe if there was a connection that I had with my men, I I would have
28:28

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

An opportunity to just vent. An opportunity to just vent.
28:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Any resentment that I that I accumulated over time because that's what happened. A lot of resentment built up and and then the trust started failing and falling apart and Any resentment that I that I accumulated over time because that's what happened. A lot of resentment built up and and then the trust started failing and falling apart and
28:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I I became someone that I I didn't enjoy. And I I became someone that I I didn't enjoy.
28:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And that was my reason for leaving. I I left, because I I just, I I wasn't loving myself. I didn't love who I was in that relationship. And that was my reason for leaving. I I left, because I I just, I I wasn't loving myself. I didn't love who I was in that relationship.
28:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And I'm currently now a man going his own way. I'm just And I'm currently now a man going his own way. I'm just
29:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I'm not in that old place before when I was in Sydney. I'm not in that old place before when I was in Sydney.
29:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Being kind of a, bit of a rat bag, you know, not not seeing women as as Being kind of a, bit of a rat bag, you know, not not seeing women as as
29:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Who they really are. Like Who they really are. Like
29:17

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I was seeing them as as I was seeing them as as
29:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

More objects of my attention. More objects of my attention.
29:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And now I, I, I I don't have that awareness anymore. I see them as much deeper And now I, I, I I don't have that awareness anymore. I see them as much deeper
29:29

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Intimate beings, that Intimate beings, that
29:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Have more depth and and I I should approach any kind of relationship with a bit of caution. Have more depth and and I I should approach any kind of relationship with a bit of caution.
29:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Is this the kind of person I want to connect with? Not not woman. Like they they are people. So just, like a man too. Discernment. Discernment. Yeah. Discerning whether or not this is going to be a healthy relationship or not. Whether this this person serves me or not and whether or not I can serve them. And that women by nature are not always just perfect and wonderful and goddesses. That they're actually capable of, you know, a lot more. Is this the kind of person I want to connect with? Not not woman. Like they they are people. So just, like a man too. Discernment. Discernment. Yeah. Discerning whether or not this is going to be a healthy relationship or not. Whether this this person serves me or not and whether or not I can serve them. And that women by nature are not always just perfect and wonderful and goddesses. That they're actually capable of, you know, a lot more.
30:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yes and and I think that that relationship has really shown me that it's it's really given me that awareness that um I had my awareness open to all women you know and and all people are like, I thought everyone's capable of love and and I'm the one to show them like that that capacity is available to them. Yes and and I think that that relationship has really shown me that it's it's really given me that awareness that um I had my awareness open to all women you know and and all people are like, I thought everyone's capable of love and and I'm the one to show them like that that capacity is available to them.
30:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Was Was
30:32

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Quite ignorant about that in the sense. But what it's done for me now is it's it's narrowed that and like it's given me choice and I'll come back to that. I feel like I've got choice. Where I didn't, I didn't know that I had choice before. Like there was just a complete unawareness of choice. So you felt like you should just take any woman who wanted you. Quite ignorant about that in the sense. But what it's done for me now is it's it's narrowed that and like it's given me choice and I'll come back to that. I feel like I've got choice. Where I didn't, I didn't know that I had choice before. Like there was just a complete unawareness of choice. So you felt like you should just take any woman who wanted you.
30:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yeah, yeah. I I didn't feel like I was the empowered man that I that I'd like to be. Yeah, yeah. I I didn't feel like I was the empowered man that I that I'd like to be.
31:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it's like, I can have that woman and I want that woman. And it's like, I can have that woman and I want that woman.
31:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That that that wasn't a part of my world at all. I was, I I had a lot of self worth issues. She likes me. She wants me. I'll take her. Yeah. Yeah. Any woman who will take me. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm I'm just gonna ask you to reflect on this because this is something that That that that wasn't a part of my world at all. I was, I I had a lot of self worth issues. She likes me. She wants me. I'll take her. Yeah. Yeah. Any woman who will take me. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm I'm just gonna ask you to reflect on this because this is something that
31:22

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I guess plays in my mind quite a lot in men's groups. I guess plays in my mind quite a lot in men's groups.
31:25

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Is the degree to which so many men in that group are sort of struggling with the story of who they think they should be? Yes. Is the degree to which so many men in that group are sort of struggling with the story of who they think they should be? Yes.
31:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Yes. In relationships. With women. Hmm hmm. And that that's not marrying up with what's happening in the present. The present's sort of saying, it's this. Their idea of who they Sh - Should, who they feel they should be, and even who the woman might say they should be as well. Yeah, you know, there is the story of who they should be and there is this Yes. In relationships. With women. Hmm hmm. And that that's not marrying up with what's happening in the present. The present's sort of saying, it's this. Their idea of who they Sh - Should, who they feel they should be, and even who the woman might say they should be as well. Yeah, you know, there is the story of who they should be and there is this
31:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Disconnect. Definitely. Disconnect. Definitely.
31:58

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And, that comes with, for me, the lack of um And, that comes with, for me, the lack of um
32:03

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Connection with my father. Connection with my father.
32:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

From ah, ah, a um From ah, ah, a um
32:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I believe anyway, and also with men in general, healthy connections with men, where, there's there's, there's I believe anyway, and also with men in general, healthy connections with men, where, there's there's, there's
32:15

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

There's an ability there that we can connect as men on an intimate level, and not in the intimate level of like a homosexual relationship. Well, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is, is a genuine connection that we actually seek with women. Well I do anyway as as a as a There's an ability there that we can connect as men on an intimate level, and not in the intimate level of like a homosexual relationship. Well, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is, is a genuine connection that we actually seek with women. Well I do anyway as as a as a
32:35

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

As a straight man. I want to connect with woman like that, like I did with my mum, like that, that intimacy. But I I never knew that that was available to me with a man. As a straight man. I want to connect with woman like that, like I did with my mum, like that, that intimacy. But I I never knew that that was available to me with a man.
32:48

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And to feel OK in that, you know that that I can And to feel OK in that, you know that that I can
32:53

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I I don't need to go and have relationships with with women now to experience intimacy. I can experience intimacy with men too, and that feels really good to me and healthy. I I don't need to go and have relationships with with women now to experience intimacy. I can experience intimacy with men too, and that feels really good to me and healthy.
33:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and I'd love other men out there to to really be able to connect with that too, if they're not experiencing that. And and I'd love other men out there to to really be able to connect with that too, if they're not experiencing that.
33:13

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Because I come from a place where you know, even if you you talk about your feelings, what are you, homo, you gay? Because I come from a place where you know, even if you you talk about your feelings, what are you, homo, you gay?
33:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

That kind of stuff. And and I found it really difficult because I'm a very feeling person. I use my feelings to navigate through the world and and they've kept me safe too. That kind of stuff. And and I found it really difficult because I'm a very feeling person. I use my feelings to navigate through the world and and they've kept me safe too.
33:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And clear from danger and and stuff like that where I see a lot of other people are disconnected like you were talking about before. And clear from danger and and stuff like that where I see a lot of other people are disconnected like you were talking about before.
33:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Of trying to find out who they are. Of trying to find out who they are.
33:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Through how other people think or should tell them how to be. Through how other people think or should tell them how to be.
33:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and that's been. And and that's been.
33:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Really rewarding knowing that. Really rewarding knowing that.
33:51

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I don't need anyone really. I don't need anyone really.
33:55

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

To connect with. If I can find that intimate connection with myself, then I can experience intimacy with others from a safe and grounded place. To connect with. If I can find that intimate connection with myself, then I can experience intimacy with others from a safe and grounded place.
34:05

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Without expectation, without having to sleep with them in a sense. Without expectation, without having to sleep with them in a sense.
34:09

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Doesn't doesn't have to be that clear cut you know. I, you want to sleep with me, you know, great. And then it's it's all over the next morning or something like that. That intimacy is gone. It's now longer lasting and and it's it's much richer and cleaner and healthier and there's no sabotage. There's no toxicity there. There's no expectation I think. Doesn't doesn't have to be that clear cut you know. I, you want to sleep with me, you know, great. And then it's it's all over the next morning or something like that. That intimacy is gone. It's now longer lasting and and it's it's much richer and cleaner and healthier and there's no sabotage. There's no toxicity there. There's no expectation I think.
34:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Toxicity comes with expectation. Which you need to fulfill this role because I've been intimate with you and Toxicity comes with expectation. Which you need to fulfill this role because I've been intimate with you and
34:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You know. There's certain expectations. Yeah. And in the last three years You know. There's certain expectations. Yeah. And in the last three years
34:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

You've, I mean you've been exposed to some pretty remarkable men through these organisations. How has that been for you? You've, I mean you've been exposed to some pretty remarkable men through these organisations. How has that been for you?
34:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

How has that been for me. I mean strong men, powerful men. Men who are exploring different things. Men who have taken you under their wing. I've seen that. Ah huh. Umm, because How has that been for me. I mean strong men, powerful men. Men who are exploring different things. Men who have taken you under their wing. I've seen that. Ah huh. Umm, because
35:11

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

My understanding was you saw yourself very much as a younger man, mmm mmm, and you were looking for guidance. My understanding was you saw yourself very much as a younger man, mmm mmm, and you were looking for guidance.
35:19

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

How has it been in that role and and and what sort of How has it been in that role and and and what sort of
35:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Effects as it had, I suppose, having that council of older men. Yeah, it has offered me um reassurance and um validation where I I hadn't had it before. Effects as it had, I suppose, having that council of older men. Yeah, it has offered me um reassurance and um validation where I I hadn't had it before.
35:40

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And it's also allowed me to grow that that integrity muscle that, that I had so longed to And it's also allowed me to grow that that integrity muscle that, that I had so longed to
35:47

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

To to to grow and I didn't know how to do it in a world where integrity doesn't mean anything. To to to grow and I didn't know how to do it in a world where integrity doesn't mean anything.
35:54

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's it's kind of a what, what do you mean by integrity, you know? It's it's kind of a what, what do you mean by integrity, you know?
35:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Of. Of.
36:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I do feel like I came from the mainstream, you know and and I broke free from that through through this. It's men's work is is not mainstream. It it's new or it's actually really old. It's it's kind of it is it's a primal thing it's a, it's what I do feel like I came from the mainstream, you know and and I broke free from that through through this. It's men's work is is not mainstream. It it's new or it's actually really old. It's it's kind of it is it's a primal thing it's a, it's what
36:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Our generations and generations ago would do, you know, and it's and I believe it's the the TV media things like that, like sitting in front of TV throughout my childhood really disconnected me from that connection with others. Our generations and generations ago would do, you know, and it's and I believe it's the the TV media things like that, like sitting in front of TV throughout my childhood really disconnected me from that connection with others.
36:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

So I never really got to hear. So I never really got to hear.
36:39

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And experience true integrity, um. So, meeting other strong, powerful men with integrity. Because when I see a man that has that quality, I feel drawn and attracted to him. Because it's something that I aspire to, to to become as a man of integrity. And experience true integrity, um. So, meeting other strong, powerful men with integrity. Because when I see a man that has that quality, I feel drawn and attracted to him. Because it's something that I aspire to, to to become as a man of integrity.
36:59

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And of course, we're all human too. Absolutely. And has that been disappointing, seeing the frailty, the imperfections, the blemishes there? And of course, we're all human too. Absolutely. And has that been disappointing, seeing the frailty, the imperfections, the blemishes there?
37:08

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Umm. Umm.
37:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

No and yes, I mean. No and yes, I mean.
37:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It's it's beautiful there when it's there, and it's beautiful when a man can own that. It's it's beautiful there when it's there, and it's beautiful when a man can own that.
37:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

But if if, it's not. But if if, it's not.
37:23

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

If there's an abandonment of, of responsibility of of what may have taken, or shame or guilt. If there's an abandonment of, of responsibility of of what may have taken, or shame or guilt.
37:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Then it can. It's kind of like, well there's a missed opportunity here to to really drop into a deeper place. And and I put my hand up, I I've, I've done that too. I'm not perfect Then it can. It's kind of like, well there's a missed opportunity here to to really drop into a deeper place. And and I put my hand up, I I've, I've done that too. I'm not perfect
37:41

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Really. Really.
37:43

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I really enjoy connecting um I really enjoy connecting um
37:46

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

With, with my, with, with that humanness part of myself. Because it shows me that there's something to look at and there's something I can, I can really grow here. With, with my, with, with that humanness part of myself. Because it shows me that there's something to look at and there's something I can, I can really grow here.
37:57

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

How are we going for time? How are we going for time?
38:00

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

2 minutes. OK, so we got 2 minutes left. Is there anything you want to touch on before we finish up? 2 minutes. OK, so we got 2 minutes left. Is there anything you want to touch on before we finish up?
38:14

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I guess my I guess my
38:16

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

direction in where I'm going. Um direction in where I'm going. Um
38:20

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I don't really know where I'm going. I don't know anything really. I know that I'm happy and I know that that's really important to me. I don't really know where I'm going. I don't know anything really. I know that I'm happy and I know that that's really important to me.
38:31

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I know that that I know that that
38:33

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

if I have if I have
38:34

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

or I choose things that that or I choose things that that
38:37

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

feel good in, um, and, and one of those things is definitely men's work. feel good in, um, and, and one of those things is definitely men's work.
38:44

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

It is scary and it is uncomfortable at times and and It is scary and it is uncomfortable at times and and
38:49

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

it's kind of like if I can it's kind of like if I can
38:52

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

feel that storm that I'm in, in my body, there's there can be a lot of energy moving through my body and emotion. feel that storm that I'm in, in my body, there's there can be a lot of energy moving through my body and emotion.
39:01

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And if I just And if I just
39:04

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

allow that allow that
39:06

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

and and acknowledge that I'm feeling that way, then I can really and and acknowledge that I'm feeling that way, then I can really
39:10

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

have that choice again. It's like, well what, what do I wanna feel? Where do I wanna go from here? And it's and it's always to that lighter, brighter have that choice again. It's like, well what, what do I wanna feel? Where do I wanna go from here? And it's and it's always to that lighter, brighter
39:18

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

calmness out of that storm. calmness out of that storm.
39:21

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Storm can be quite cool. Storm can be quite cool.
39:24

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

And and it can show show me parts of myself that I'm not really aware of. But when I come out of that, I I really And and it can show show me parts of myself that I'm not really aware of. But when I come out of that, I I really
39:30

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

I really go well. I handle that pretty well. So yeah, if I can continue on this journey I really go well. I handle that pretty well. So yeah, if I can continue on this journey
39:38

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Handling whatever comes my way that that's going to be really Handling whatever comes my way that that's going to be really
39:42

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

really joyful for me. Hmm. really joyful for me. Hmm.
39:45

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

OK. Should we finish there? Thank you very much. Thank you, Hamish. OK. Should we finish there? Thank you very much. Thank you, Hamish.