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I'm John Kellerman. I'm sitting here with Oliver Burgle at I'm John Kellerman. I'm sitting here with Oliver Burgle at
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Man Shine 2016 the 1st of May. Man Shine 2016 the 1st of May.
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And And
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I wanted to ask Oliver what it, where did this idea of a desert rite of passage come from? I wanted to ask Oliver what it, where did this idea of a desert rite of passage come from?
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It came Hi John, it had came from ah, It came Hi John, it had came from ah,
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in 2009 I was kicking, kicking around and feeling very frustrated with with my life, in 2009 I was kicking, kicking around and feeling very frustrated with with my life,
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and so I decided to go and walk the Camino de Santiago in Spain with my wife. and so I decided to go and walk the Camino de Santiago in Spain with my wife.
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And we walked for 10 weeks, hmm, across Spain and France, 1600 kilometres. And I found that the simple act of walking was a process that facilitated change and awareness raising and brought insights to my life and the nature of life and so And we walked for 10 weeks, hmm, across Spain and France, 1600 kilometres. And I found that the simple act of walking was a process that facilitated change and awareness raising and brought insights to my life and the nature of life and so
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with that I then with that I then
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began to formulate an idea of how I could bring a walking workshop and it just made so much sense because I've done a lot of workshops as a man and I often see myself and other men struggling to sit still. began to formulate an idea of how I could bring a walking workshop and it just made so much sense because I've done a lot of workshops as a man and I often see myself and other men struggling to sit still.
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Into you know we we like, you know The Walking thing was great and the adventures thing was great and being out and challenging the physical aspect was fantastic. So all these bits came together and I also knew that that what would really work would be a workshop where you walked and then as the insights and realizations came along because I discovered this when I was walking into Spain was The Walking in the time allowed things to process. So when I got to the end of the workshop things were integrated I want. Into you know we we like, you know The Walking thing was great and the adventures thing was great and being out and challenging the physical aspect was fantastic. So all these bits came together and I also knew that that what would really work would be a workshop where you walked and then as the insights and realizations came along because I discovered this when I was walking into Spain was The Walking in the time allowed things to process. So when I got to the end of the workshop things were integrated I want.
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On some great big high and then I go group at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. On some great big high and then I go group at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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So then, I don't know, a couple of years later all the bits started to come together and I heard about this walk in the central Australian desert called the Larapinta Trail, 200 kilometres, Very wild, rugged, remote, So then, I don't know, a couple of years later all the bits started to come together and I heard about this walk in the central Australian desert called the Larapinta Trail, 200 kilometres, Very wild, rugged, remote,
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and I formulated a very loose idea and I put out to a network of men that I knew and I presented it as an experiment, and I formulated a very loose idea and I put out to a network of men that I knew and I presented it as an experiment,
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and as you know, because you were there, I came along. That's right. Why did you come along? Well, it's yeah, I'd like you. I've done a lot of workshops and, and as you know, because you were there, I came along. That's right. Why did you come along? Well, it's yeah, I'd like you. I've done a lot of workshops and,
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just just quietly and so, yeah. just just quietly and so, yeah.
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It appealed to me because it was an adventure, It appealed to me because it was an adventure,
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out in the desert and it is one of the top ten walks of the world, so that was an appealing aspect. out in the desert and it is one of the top ten walks of the world, so that was an appealing aspect.
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I had no idea what to expect in terms of a facilitation or a process. I had no idea what to expect in terms of a facilitation or a process.
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But having done a lot of workshops, But having done a lot of workshops,
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it was a pretty easy yes for me to get out there and be on an adventure in Central Australia. I love that country. it was a pretty easy yes for me to get out there and be on an adventure in Central Australia. I love that country.
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And and look, in a way it was a little, I must say it was a little clunky that first year. And and look, in a way it was a little, I must say it was a little clunky that first year.
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And the facilitation team hadn't got their thoughts together as well as they initially thought. And the facilitation team hadn't got their thoughts together as well as they initially thought.
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And And
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And I suppose I thought to myself, I could actually make something out of this bit better. And I think I came to you rather than you to me. And I suppose I thought to myself, I could actually make something out of this bit better. And I think I came to you rather than you to me.
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You don't think so? I don't recall, but it was definitely clunky. I totally agree with you. It was clunky. But I saw the potential. Yeah. I saw the potential and I must have as well. Yeah. How did we end up going to the next level? We did. Ohh. We had. I'm pretty sure I I came to you and said, do you want to join me in doing the facilitation? I know I did. You don't think so? I don't recall, but it was definitely clunky. I totally agree with you. It was clunky. But I saw the potential. Yeah. I saw the potential and I must have as well. Yeah. How did we end up going to the next level? We did. Ohh. We had. I'm pretty sure I I came to you and said, do you want to join me in doing the facilitation? I know I did.
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And because I saw the way that you were working with men, although you were participant, you were working with men there at the same time and, And because I saw the way that you were working with men, although you were participant, you were working with men there at the same time and,
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and we'd worked well, you know, we we had met. and we'd worked well, you know, we we had met.
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There were times out there in that first one where There were times out there in that first one where
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I acknowledged you as a teacher, Umm, and there were times out there. I acknowledged you as a teacher, Umm, and there were times out there.
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When you acknowledge me as a teacher and we we met, you know, on a on an equal footing playing field, that's right. And. When you acknowledge me as a teacher and we we met, you know, on a on an equal footing playing field, that's right. And.
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We could work together, so we did and and. We could work together, so we did and and.
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And I've been running rights passage programs for teenage boys with their fathers and mentors for. And I've been running rights passage programs for teenage boys with their fathers and mentors for.
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Crocky A decade or more before that. So I'd spent a lot of time working with men. Umm, and. Crocky A decade or more before that. So I'd spent a lot of time working with men. Umm, and.
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I could see the possibility of not having the boys, but focusing on the men only using the skills I developed out in that country, that the two of us could work well together. So it wasn't hard. It wasn't hard. Yes, you did ask me. I could see the possibility of not having the boys, but focusing on the men only using the skills I developed out in that country, that the two of us could work well together. So it wasn't hard. It wasn't hard. Yes, you did ask me.
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And so then the following year, we. And so then the following year, we.
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We. We.
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You know we kind of grounded much further, took a lot of the clunkiness out. Absolutely and and jettisoned the bits that weren't working that obviously weren't working and and enhanced and put more meat onto the bits that did work and. You know we kind of grounded much further, took a lot of the clunkiness out. Absolutely and and jettisoned the bits that weren't working that obviously weren't working and and enhanced and put more meat onto the bits that did work and.
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And another group of guys came forward and and I mean we knew what we were going into this time that was a cause cause the first year I was completely blind. I'd never walked the trail I. And another group of guys came forward and and I mean we knew what we were going into this time that was a cause cause the first year I was completely blind. I'd never walked the trail I.
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I am. I am.
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I took enormous risks in many ways, you know, trusting that it was all going to come together. Some guys have died out there. Yeah, it's a wild place. It's a rugged country and it's a tough walk. It's a really, really tough walk. Tell me about the toughness of it. Well, physically it's really tough. Some of the uphill and downhill climbs in the heat. I remember a couple of them and they're still scare me a little. They are. I took enormous risks in many ways, you know, trusting that it was all going to come together. Some guys have died out there. Yeah, it's a wild place. It's a rugged country and it's a tough walk. It's a really, really tough walk. Tell me about the toughness of it. Well, physically it's really tough. Some of the uphill and downhill climbs in the heat. I remember a couple of them and they're still scare me a little. They are.
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The the heat coming off that western slope from Ripley's bluff and that slippery steps that sometimes they're two 2 1/2 foot, you know, 700 mil deep steps and it goes down and down and down and it never seems to stop and the the gravels loose and if you lose your footing you could sprain an ankle, hit your head break a leg. It it's it's it's rugged country to climb. And then there's a couple of other uphill climbs that seem to go on forever as well up to that great lookout spot where can't speak. The the heat coming off that western slope from Ripley's bluff and that slippery steps that sometimes they're two 2 1/2 foot, you know, 700 mil deep steps and it goes down and down and down and it never seems to stop and the the gravels loose and if you lose your footing you could sprain an ankle, hit your head break a leg. It it's it's it's rugged country to climb. And then there's a couple of other uphill climbs that seem to go on forever as well up to that great lookout spot where can't speak.
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Bounce peak. Yeah. And I wanna go see. Yeah, look at it physically, it's pretty an arduous trick. We we walk. Bounce peak. Yeah. And I wanna go see. Yeah, look at it physically, it's pretty an arduous trick. We we walk.
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Somehow it's one days, 13 hours. I think last year we did a 13 hour day. Many days are 10 hours, yeah. And and and you think ohh, 20 kilometres. It's a four or five hour, 6 hour walk. But it's not because it's it's steep, it's rugged, it's slippery, it's it's it's dangerous and and you're not just walking. So while we're walking we're engaged in an inner process and. Somehow it's one days, 13 hours. I think last year we did a 13 hour day. Many days are 10 hours, yeah. And and and you think ohh, 20 kilometres. It's a four or five hour, 6 hour walk. But it's not because it's it's steep, it's rugged, it's slippery, it's it's it's dangerous and and you're not just walking. So while we're walking we're engaged in an inner process and.
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You know it's it's. You know it's it's.
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A very, very different model, but it's in. It's a model that works because you get to inquire and explore yourself and converse and share as we go along. A very, very different model, but it's in. It's a model that works because you get to inquire and explore yourself and converse and share as we go along.
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In this most amazing countryside, I mean the the such potently alive and and beautiful country to be in it. It's ancient country that goes back a billion or more years. The apparently the Fink river and the other two rivers there have been in the same location for 350 million years and I find that it's that the the majesty of that. In this most amazing countryside, I mean the the such potently alive and and beautiful country to be in it. It's ancient country that goes back a billion or more years. The apparently the Fink river and the other two rivers there have been in the same location for 350 million years and I find that it's that the the majesty of that.
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Country is overwhelms the little me. Hmm. So that it's not about me anymore. It's about country and me. Hmm. And and then it's silly as it may sound, I start to talk to the country because it's even bigger than me and it starts to talk back. And that may be the result of turning off the phone and getting back to a slow pace of walking for days and days at a time. And it also combined with the fact that we are sharing our truth in a vulnerable but safe location in terms of of men's group. Country is overwhelms the little me. Hmm. So that it's not about me anymore. It's about country and me. Hmm. And and then it's silly as it may sound, I start to talk to the country because it's even bigger than me and it starts to talk back. And that may be the result of turning off the phone and getting back to a slow pace of walking for days and days at a time. And it also combined with the fact that we are sharing our truth in a vulnerable but safe location in terms of of men's group.
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And. And.
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Yeah, and that and and that country communicates with me. And if I ask a question and wait, the answer comes if I'm prepared to wait. Yeah, and that and and that country communicates with me. And if I ask a question and wait, the answer comes if I'm prepared to wait.
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Yeah, so write a passage. Yeah, so write a passage.
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Contains 5 components and. The first one is exclusion of a group of people of the same gender into a. Contains 5 components and. The first one is exclusion of a group of people of the same gender into a.
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Separate location or different location. So that's works really well there. And then there's challenge and where a lot of what we do has has levels of challenge, there's the obvious great physical challenge and then there's the. Separate location or different location. So that's works really well there. And then there's challenge and where a lot of what we do has has levels of challenge, there's the obvious great physical challenge and then there's the.
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The personal challenge and there's that comes in so many, many different ways that that that. The personal challenge and there's that comes in so many, many different ways that that that.
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The the challenge that we give the men from the work to inquire to ask this question and come up with the truth you know something that's real and and the other levels of challenge that we we work with and and come out with physical challenge. The the challenge that we give the men from the work to inquire to ask this question and come up with the truth you know something that's real and and the other levels of challenge that we we work with and and come out with physical challenge.
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And we, you and I as facilitators are challenged as well challenged to be to be on for to hear what's being said to know what's being not being said challenged by planning the journey and. And we, you and I as facilitators are challenged as well challenged to be to be on for to hear what's being said to know what's being not being said challenged by planning the journey and.
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Being on target on board for 12/14/16 hours a day for about two weeks? Yep. Facilitating from the beginning of wake up till they go to bed, Yeah. Being on target on board for 12/14/16 hours a day for about two weeks? Yep. Facilitating from the beginning of wake up till they go to bed, Yeah.
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And then the third element is the law of man or the story of Miller man. Yeah the man coming. We're coming. Well I frame it up in the in the in the literature is really coming to terms with law which is you know integrity that the the truth that guides us through life and the fundamentals of life. You know what is life who am I in the universe. And and and those are questions we face head on. You know these are the things that we explore and we've and. And then the third element is the law of man or the story of Miller man. Yeah the man coming. We're coming. Well I frame it up in the in the in the literature is really coming to terms with law which is you know integrity that the the truth that guides us through life and the fundamentals of life. You know what is life who am I in the universe. And and and those are questions we face head on. You know these are the things that we explore and we've and.
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Even that they're walking for hours and hours at a time, they have lots of time to explore a specific question like that. And what we do is often simply keep holding them focused in that direction. So as that the mind has its nature wandering and going off and doing it, you know, keep keep coming back to what's what's. Even that they're walking for hours and hours at a time, they have lots of time to explore a specific question like that. And what we do is often simply keep holding them focused in that direction. So as that the mind has its nature wandering and going off and doing it, you know, keep keep coming back to what's what's.
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Have you learned what where you at. And we and we build a container of safety with these men. We become quite intimate with each other. So that when one man and we give everyone the opportunity to share what pops up as we're walking. We'll stop briefly and you know what's coming up here. What's coming up for you or for a for a couple of them. And and I noticed that when one shares something the other there's a lot of our haha or nodding from others. So we become a collective masculine. Have you learned what where you at. And we and we build a container of safety with these men. We become quite intimate with each other. So that when one man and we give everyone the opportunity to share what pops up as we're walking. We'll stop briefly and you know what's coming up here. What's coming up for you or for a for a couple of them. And and I noticed that when one shares something the other there's a lot of our haha or nodding from others. So we become a collective masculine.
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Growing awareness in masculinity as a collective is probably the best word, yeah. Growing awareness in masculinity as a collective is probably the best word, yeah.
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And then there's honoring, which is another beautiful part of the work that that. And then there's honoring, which is another beautiful part of the work that that.
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We we honor and acknowledge primarily to ourselves who we are and what we are. Yeah, and and and conduct so many about. We we honor and acknowledge primarily to ourselves who we are and what we are. Yeah, and and and conduct so many about.
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Placing that foreground and central in your life. Hmm. Placing that foreground and central in your life. Hmm.
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And never return. And never return.
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Returned back to their community. Yeah, yeah. And unlike some of the many, many workshops I've got, we don't get men going. As you started conversation, we don't seem to get men going down afterwards. I spoke to one of our participants this morning and asked him. Returned back to their community. Yeah, yeah. And unlike some of the many, many workshops I've got, we don't get men going. As you started conversation, we don't seem to get men going down afterwards. I spoke to one of our participants this morning and asked him.
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What really changed for him? What really changed for him?
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You know, because he was on the walk last year. Yeah, one of our older men. You know, because he was on the walk last year. Yeah, one of our older men.
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And he he looked up and he thought. And he he looked up and he thought.
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He said. I came to the realization. He said. I came to the realization.
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That I am loved. That I am loved.
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Lovable. Lovable.
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And loving. And loving.
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And. And.
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And I asked him if that's made a difference in his life. He said it's completely changed my life. Nothing's changed it. It's completely changed my life. And I asked him what else has changed. And I asked him if that's made a difference in his life. He said it's completely changed my life. Nothing's changed it. It's completely changed my life. And I asked him what else has changed.
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And he said. And he said.
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And if I recall it correctly. And if I recall it correctly.
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I've gone blank and what he saying It'll come to me later. I've gone blank and what he saying It'll come to me later.
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So why you having to think about that? Umm, I'll say this, OK. So why you having to think about that? Umm, I'll say this, OK.
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As John indicated, he's done a lot of work with rites of passage with boys or contemporary rights of passage for boys in this modern society. And and. As John indicated, he's done a lot of work with rites of passage with boys or contemporary rights of passage for boys in this modern society. And and.
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What I say is that this, a rite of passage for men, is a very different thing for right of passage with boys, with a boy, a ride. The passage is about acknowledging really that beautiful essence of that young man before it gets completely lost in Korea and in confusion and and and identity in other aspects of the world such as marriage or professionalism. But in the wider message we've. What I say is that this, a rite of passage for men, is a very different thing for right of passage with boys, with a boy, a ride. The passage is about acknowledging really that beautiful essence of that young man before it gets completely lost in Korea and in confusion and and and identity in other aspects of the world such as marriage or professionalism. But in the wider message we've.
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Man, elder men can't value and acknowledge that because that moments last lost and what we do. Man, elder men can't value and acknowledge that because that moments last lost and what we do.
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It's provide a vehicle where the individual. It's provide a vehicle where the individual.
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Can validate those essential parts of ourselves so often get forgotten. Can validate those essential parts of ourselves so often get forgotten.
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And we put them foreground because when in our life we go out into the world. And we put them foreground because when in our life we go out into the world.
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We base decisions on things. We base decisions on things.
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And what I provide and what we provide through this work is something. And what I provide and what we provide through this work is something.
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Else to base the decisions of life on other than am I going to make money? Is it going to give me whatever? Else to base the decisions of life on other than am I going to make money? Is it going to give me whatever?
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That's gonna feed some sort of external source of happiness and in the end. That's gonna feed some sort of external source of happiness and in the end.
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That's not gonna cut the mustard then it's it's gonna run out and and we provide an internal source of happiness or a reference for that that you then have to then go and maintain in your life. And it's really simply love as contrite as it is that as you were saying before with with the fellow that you were speaking to that you come to acknowledge that he's loving and and it has connection within that and and you know as human beings that's all we want and then all the other stuff superfluous. I recall the other thing. That's not gonna cut the mustard then it's it's gonna run out and and we provide an internal source of happiness or a reference for that that you then have to then go and maintain in your life. And it's really simply love as contrite as it is that as you were saying before with with the fellow that you were speaking to that you come to acknowledge that he's loving and and it has connection within that and and you know as human beings that's all we want and then all the other stuff superfluous. I recall the other thing.
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He said, he said I realised and he told me exactly where it happened, where we were. And he said I realized I'm not broken, huh? I don't need fixing. So with that out of the way, I can be a loving person, so a nicely How's that? How's that impacted your life? So just completely changed our relationship with the my primary relationship. He said, he said I realised and he told me exactly where it happened, where we were. And he said I realized I'm not broken, huh? I don't need fixing. So with that out of the way, I can be a loving person, so a nicely How's that? How's that impacted your life? So just completely changed our relationship with the my primary relationship.
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I I can be seen. I can sit with her. I can be with her. I can be. I I can be seen. I can sit with her. I can be with her. I can be.
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Intimate with her and she can be with me. She already was. I was the one that had to changed. So it's yeah, it's changed his life. He he now knows that when he needs to make a decision, he can make it from love. Yeah. Not from the other driving forces that men tend to fall back on. Yeah. You know the thoughts of the mind and the am I going to achieve this? What people think of me. Will I make money out of it You know will I get what I want. Intimate with her and she can be with me. She already was. I was the one that had to changed. So it's yeah, it's changed his life. He he now knows that when he needs to make a decision, he can make it from love. Yeah. Not from the other driving forces that men tend to fall back on. Yeah. You know the thoughts of the mind and the am I going to achieve this? What people think of me. Will I make money out of it You know will I get what I want.
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Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah. How many of these things have we done now? Is it four or five? We've done 4. We've got our fifth one coming up in October in Morton Island. We've done four walks. Yeah, four walks. So we've done nearly 1000 kilometres. Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah. How many of these things have we done now? Is it four or five? We've done 4. We've got our fifth one coming up in October in Morton Island. We've done four walks. Yeah, four walks. So we've done nearly 1000 kilometres.
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And one of my second pair of boots and you are too. And one of my second pair of boots and you are too.
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Dear. Dear.
16:12

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Hmm. Hmm.
16:15

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So tell me, John. So tell me, John.
16:18

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What have you learned or you know how is doing this work with me? What have you learned or you know how is doing this work with me?
16:22

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Changed your life and and what have been the challenges for you? Changed your life and and what have been the challenges for you?
16:27

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Hmm. Hmm.
16:30

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I can recall. I can recall.
16:33

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Once I'll record, the first thing that comes to mind was May the 21st. Once I'll record, the first thing that comes to mind was May the 21st.
16:39

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On our well, well, sometimes years ago because it was my son's birthday was the day my son was born. On our well, well, sometimes years ago because it was my son's birthday was the day my son was born.
16:48

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And at that time we were He was not talking to me, my oldest son. And at that time we were He was not talking to me, my oldest son.
16:56

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And. And.
16:59

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We will count. We're climbing council peak, I think. We will count. We're climbing council peak, I think.
17:02

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Hmm. And. Hmm. And.
17:06

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I played, I played my flute in the morning, first time in public and I and I always felt very vulnerable when I did that. I played, I played my flute in the morning, first time in public and I and I always felt very vulnerable when I did that.
17:14

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Sounds silly, I know, but it was. It was a big moment for me to do that and and it cracked open. It took the facilitator hat off and made me a participant. Sounds silly, I know, but it was. It was a big moment for me to do that and and it cracked open. It took the facilitator hat off and made me a participant.
17:25

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Again, it was must have been our second walk because our first workout was a participant and the second walk it was, you know, a few days in and I had my facilitator hat on and and I do that well. Again, it was must have been our second walk because our first workout was a participant and the second walk it was, you know, a few days in and I had my facilitator hat on and and I do that well.
17:38

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But the but the the country up there had another had another idea for me and it was it was the IT was the birthing day of my son. And my son was born at 1:00 in the morning and a very, very difficult birth. But the but the the country up there had another had another idea for me and it was it was the IT was the birthing day of my son. And my son was born at 1:00 in the morning and a very, very difficult birth.
17:51

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Everything went wrong and he was taken from his mother. Everything went wrong and he was taken from his mother.
17:55

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And he was put in a humidity crib. He couldn't breathe. And he was put in a humidity crib. He couldn't breathe.
17:59

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And she was, and he was taken 50 miles away. And she was, and he was taken 50 miles away.
18:03

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And and I was 21 years old and the doctor just did what the doctor, the doctor the country hospital did, what the country hospital did, did back then in 1974. And and I was 21 years old and the doctor just did what the doctor, the doctor the country hospital did, what the country hospital did, did back then in 1974.
18:14

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And and then. And and then.
18:16

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And so that all came rushing back to me on this, on this climb up this hill. And I remember as I remembered it, and I'm feeling it now. And so that all came rushing back to me on this, on this climb up this hill. And I remember as I remembered it, and I'm feeling it now.
18:26

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I cried the grief. I cried the grief.
18:30

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That hadn't felt as the 21 year old holding it together for his lost son who'd been taken away and possibly could die. That hadn't felt as the 21 year old holding it together for his lost son who'd been taken away and possibly could die.
18:42

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And I was first time ever, ever feeling that grief as I walked up the hill. And I'm feeling it again now. And I was first time ever, ever feeling that grief as I walked up the hill. And I'm feeling it again now.
18:49

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And and I I pulled out. I turned on my mobile phone and I started, because it doesn't work out there. But I was using it for notes and I started to write him a letter of my walk up to the top of the hill. And I'd walk about. I talk. I'd write about the walk. Here I am. I'm walking up this pad and I've just fallen or I'm I've I'd actually went to my knees at one stage in tears. And I wrote about that and interspersed every second paragraph was what I was thinking about. I was thinking. And and I I pulled out. I turned on my mobile phone and I started, because it doesn't work out there. But I was using it for notes and I started to write him a letter of my walk up to the top of the hill. And I'd walk about. I talk. I'd write about the walk. Here I am. I'm walking up this pad and I've just fallen or I'm I've I'd actually went to my knees at one stage in tears. And I wrote about that and interspersed every second paragraph was what I was thinking about. I was thinking.
19:19

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About how we got how you were born or or being born and the and what I was feeling and how at the end of the most dramatic part was at the end of the birth. About how we got how you were born or or being born and the and what I was feeling and how at the end of the most dramatic part was at the end of the birth.
19:28

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Which had gone on for hours 12 hours. Which had gone on for hours 12 hours.
19:31

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He's gone. He's gone.
19:34

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My wife, whom I was married to. My wife, whom I was married to.
19:38

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Was left in the in the bed, and I'm in the hallway and at two 3:00 in the morning in a cold country hospital. Was left in the in the bed, and I'm in the hallway and at two 3:00 in the morning in a cold country hospital.
19:47

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Thinking. Thinking.
19:48

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What? What happened? And I'm trying to describe that in my letter to my son. What? What happened? And I'm trying to describe that in my letter to my son.
19:54

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Ohh I'd do my best to write it all down and tell him cause he didn't know about the story of his birth. Ohh I'd do my best to write it all down and tell him cause he didn't know about the story of his birth.
19:60

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And when I told him, I hadn't told him. And when I told him, I hadn't told him.
20:03

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And and. And and.
20:06

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Yeah, so that was the first time that the country cracked me open. Yeah, so that was the first time that the country cracked me open.
20:12

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And made me feel that which I hadn't felt before, which was just an overwhelming grief. And it went on all morning till we got to the top of the hill. It was probably a four or five hour walk that this process took. These are not a 5 minute cathartic exercise. This was a four to five or six hour walk, plus down coming down again integrating it. So it was a day, a full day of feeling that which I'd put away for 50 years or 4048 years. And made me feel that which I hadn't felt before, which was just an overwhelming grief. And it went on all morning till we got to the top of the hill. It was probably a four or five hour walk that this process took. These are not a 5 minute cathartic exercise. This was a four to five or six hour walk, plus down coming down again integrating it. So it was a day, a full day of feeling that which I'd put away for 50 years or 4048 years.
20:42

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And I ended up sending him the letter. And I ended up sending him the letter.
20:45

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And well, some time later he came back. And now we're really good friends. And well, some time later he came back. And now we're really good friends.
20:53

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That was one example, and I'm feeling it right now. One example of how that land humbled me, cracked me open. Ripped off a mask, pulled off a shell. That was one example, and I'm feeling it right now. One example of how that land humbled me, cracked me open. Ripped off a mask, pulled off a shell.
21:06

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An armor that I had. An armor that I had.
21:08

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And. And.
21:10

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To put, you know, yeah, an armour that I pulled put up when I was 21 because I didn't know anything else. To put, you know, yeah, an armour that I pulled put up when I was 21 because I didn't know anything else.
21:21

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I'm going to ask you the same question. I'm going to ask you the same question.
21:25

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So all of that was it changed you? So all of that was it changed you?
21:34

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Well, what straight away comes to mind is the. Well, what straight away comes to mind is the.
21:38

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The first one that I did. The first one that I did.
21:44

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I've been doing a lot of meditation. Well, I've done a lot of meditation in my life and and and had somewhat of a esoteric or little. I've been doing a lot of meditation. Well, I've done a lot of meditation in my life and and and had somewhat of a esoteric or little.
21:53

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Being being in that. Being being in that.
21:55

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Vein of meditation and that style of work and. Vein of meditation and that style of work and.
21:59

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And. And.
21:60

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And I'm really. And I'm really.
22:02

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Had come to. Had come to.
22:04

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Realize that. Realize that.
22:06

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I've been waiting for some sort of direction and orientation as to what to do with my life and how to serve in my bigger community and unless I put myself in the position. I've been waiting for some sort of direction and orientation as to what to do with my life and how to serve in my bigger community and unless I put myself in the position.
22:16

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To for that to happen. Nothing was gonna happen, you know? Well, if I don't. To for that to happen. Nothing was gonna happen, you know? Well, if I don't.
22:21

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Do something. Nothing happened. So I decided to do something. Umm. And this thing happened and I really didn't know what I was gonna do. Do something. Nothing happened. So I decided to do something. Umm. And this thing happened and I really didn't know what I was gonna do.
22:29

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It was a great lesson in trust for me and and and and to trusting my own intuitive strength. It was a great lesson in trust for me and and and and to trusting my own intuitive strength.
22:37

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And. And.
22:39

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To audaciously, you know, take 12 or 15 men and we'll have them. And it was with with with nothing more than a very. To audaciously, you know, take 12 or 15 men and we'll have them. And it was with with with nothing more than a very.
22:49

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Slight plan. Umm, and and and an energetic connection to what it is I want it to impart. Slight plan. Umm, and and and an energetic connection to what it is I want it to impart.
22:59

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And to trust that process, I really went out on a limb in a way I've never done before, and it grew me up and it it it has changed my life. And to trust that process, I really went out on a limb in a way I've never done before, and it grew me up and it it it has changed my life.
23:10

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I've had successes in a way I've never experienced successes in my life before and and being able to bring to birth this this process that we have and and to be able to not only create this thing but but then allow you into that process to Co create and share And that was a process too wasn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. You want to talk about that or. I've had successes in a way I've never experienced successes in my life before and and being able to bring to birth this this process that we have and and to be able to not only create this thing but but then allow you into that process to Co create and share And that was a process too wasn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. You want to talk about that or.
23:39

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Because it occurs to me that we've come from very, very different backgrounds, and yet it's a it's almost a a marriage made in facilitator heaven because we works like 2 cogs when I speak. Because it occurs to me that we've come from very, very different backgrounds, and yet it's a it's almost a a marriage made in facilitator heaven because we works like 2 cogs when I speak.
23:55

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You just follow when you speak. I just follow. We we so rarely do we contradict or cross each other and yet there's no plan hmm. So that and and and why don't I say we've got completely different backgrounds as you said you had done 20 or 30 years of meditation spiritual seeking and I had been a business or I am a businessman and a you know a successful businessman who had a a motorbike crash and. You just follow when you speak. I just follow. We we so rarely do we contradict or cross each other and yet there's no plan hmm. So that and and and why don't I say we've got completely different backgrounds as you said you had done 20 or 30 years of meditation spiritual seeking and I had been a business or I am a businessman and a you know a successful businessman who had a a motorbike crash and.
24:22

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You know, smash myself up and that was the that was the first humbling experience that waked me up. Yeah. And. And I wasn't seeking enlightenment. I wasn't speaking. I was not a spiritual seeker. I was seeking fame and wealth and and here I am humbled by by this broken spine and being in a wheelchair and and then their recovery from that, they're healing has been an awakening and it is an ongoing awakening. You know, smash myself up and that was the that was the first humbling experience that waked me up. Yeah. And. And I wasn't seeking enlightenment. I wasn't speaking. I was not a spiritual seeker. I was seeking fame and wealth and and here I am humbled by by this broken spine and being in a wheelchair and and then their recovery from that, they're healing has been an awakening and it is an ongoing awakening.
24:52

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And and without seeking it it's like I have I have this amazing ohh about amazing. I have this vision of myself. If I was to write a book the cover of the book would be the hand of God. Beautiful hand of God with me cupped in it. Sitting in his hand with my feet on the ground as he pushes me along and my heels digging in the ground. Which like it was for me. It's been opposite. I've been screaming and chasing me. Come and get me Come and get me. I'm yours and and. And and without seeking it it's like I have I have this amazing ohh about amazing. I have this vision of myself. If I was to write a book the cover of the book would be the hand of God. Beautiful hand of God with me cupped in it. Sitting in his hand with my feet on the ground as he pushes me along and my heels digging in the ground. Which like it was for me. It's been opposite. I've been screaming and chasing me. Come and get me Come and get me. I'm yours and and.
25:22

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Prostate on the ground and and seeking, seeking greatly earnestly these spiritual revelations that finally came by way and and no it didn't kind of make me wonderful. It just kind of humiliated me and humbled me too. Yeah in in in the enormity of it and the how do I take this gift gift and and and serve unity and and really. Prostate on the ground and and seeking, seeking greatly earnestly these spiritual revelations that finally came by way and and no it didn't kind of make me wonderful. It just kind of humiliated me and humbled me too. Yeah in in in the enormity of it and the how do I take this gift gift and and and serve unity and and really.
25:53

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Waiting years, yeah, years for something to come along. Waiting years, yeah, years for something to come along.
25:58

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Well, you know, like for me it was, it was, it was forced on to me it was, it was something I didn't ask for. But I got a second chance at life. I didn't expect that I should have died. So I got a second chance. So I at least have the wisdom to think, well, this is the second chance, John, what are you going to do? And and it it slowly, slowly, ever so slowly emerged to that my generosity and my service to others arose out of that and and and, and that's another thing. Well, you know, like for me it was, it was, it was forced on to me it was, it was something I didn't ask for. But I got a second chance at life. I didn't expect that I should have died. So I got a second chance. So I at least have the wisdom to think, well, this is the second chance, John, what are you going to do? And and it it slowly, slowly, ever so slowly emerged to that my generosity and my service to others arose out of that and and and, and that's another thing.
26:28

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Has changed as a result of the walk. Instead of just service to others, it's really service to love. Yeah. Well, that's what's come. That's where we do. Yeah. You know, that's our connecting point. Yeah, that's right. So if we're two very different COGS, we have the same drive shaft and that service to love. Yeah. Yeah. And that's incredibly bored. I mean, it's. Has changed as a result of the walk. Instead of just service to others, it's really service to love. Yeah. Well, that's what's come. That's where we do. Yeah. You know, that's our connecting point. Yeah, that's right. So if we're two very different COGS, we have the same drive shaft and that service to love. Yeah. Yeah. And that's incredibly bored. I mean, it's.
26:47

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It it's to men, to to life, yeah. And the truth in ourselves and everything I've I've discovered is that. It it's to men, to to life, yeah. And the truth in ourselves and everything I've I've discovered is that.
26:57

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I didn't realise it was from that, but looking back now. I didn't realise it was from that, but looking back now.
27:01

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We are really intuitive in the way we do it, like you and intuiting completely differently, but yet you're intuiting how this process is going to go, what we're gonna do with these men, how we're gonna deal with it. I'm the same. It's a very intuitive process now. Umm, because we serve the one purpose. And at the end of the day, no matter what book you read, there is no other purpose but the surplus. There is nothing else but life. So it's an easy one. We are really intuitive in the way we do it, like you and intuiting completely differently, but yet you're intuiting how this process is going to go, what we're gonna do with these men, how we're gonna deal with it. I'm the same. It's a very intuitive process now. Umm, because we serve the one purpose. And at the end of the day, no matter what book you read, there is no other purpose but the surplus. There is nothing else but life. So it's an easy one.
27:29

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What else did you learn? What personally, what else did I learn? What else did you learn? What personally, what else did I learn?
27:33

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What's? I mean, if it's a big challenge, isn't it for you personally? I mean, you got how much, how many, how much titanium you got in your leg? Yeah, 600 millimetres titanium by 19 millimetres of titanium. Yeah, yeah, I'm an inch and a half shorter than they used to be. Should be. I got one leg shorter than the other. Yeah, you should be. You should be in a wheelchair. Well, not should be. I have been. I was. And that was really humbling to be 4 foot six tall. What's? I mean, if it's a big challenge, isn't it for you personally? I mean, you got how much, how many, how much titanium you got in your leg? Yeah, 600 millimetres titanium by 19 millimetres of titanium. Yeah, yeah, I'm an inch and a half shorter than they used to be. Should be. I got one leg shorter than the other. Yeah, you should be. You should be in a wheelchair. Well, not should be. I have been. I was. And that was really humbling to be 4 foot six tall.
27:56

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Because I'm over 6 foot, so, you know, for a big fella to be humble, I was. That was one of the first rumblings, yeah. Because I'm over 6 foot, so, you know, for a big fella to be humble, I was. That was one of the first rumblings, yeah.
28:05

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What else have I learned out there? What else have I learned out there?
28:08

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Hmm. Hmm.
28:13

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Has it been over? But this how has it been working with me? You know we're we're this team and. Has it been over? But this how has it been working with me? You know we're we're this team and.
28:23

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Yes, well the interestingly yesterday we did a workshop, a 2 hour workshop on an, I named it. I thought I woke up the other I woke up out of bed and thought about running a workshop and I named it ending the war within. Yes, well the interestingly yesterday we did a workshop, a 2 hour workshop on an, I named it. I thought I woke up the other I woke up out of bed and thought about running a workshop and I named it ending the war within.
28:40

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AKA otherwise known as falling in love with where you are. AKA otherwise known as falling in love with where you are.
28:45

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And that means falling in love with who you are, what you are, what you're doing, who's in front of you, falling in love with where you are. And that means falling in love with who you are, what you are, what you're doing, who's in front of you, falling in love with where you are.
28:53

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And. And.
28:55

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And so we we we didn't have a plan for this workshop. We just grabbed the 20 odd, 20 odd men turned up and us, you and I. And so we we we didn't have a plan for this workshop. We just grabbed the 20 odd, 20 odd men turned up and us, you and I.
29:02

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And we we asked them to name what's there, where they what the how old they are, where, who they live with and what is their war within. Name it. And we we asked them to name what's there, where they what the how old they are, where, who they live with and what is their war within. Name it.
29:12

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What are they struggling with? What are they struggling with?
29:14

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And they did. And from that, from that, from what was in the room, we just massaged work together. And they did. And from that, from that, from what was in the room, we just massaged work together.
29:22

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To have them all see that war as their current doorway back to their heart, which is what we do out there too, isn't. Yeah, you know, we take whatever's here now and work with it and use it as a hence the no need for a structure, because whatever is there is the doorway back to the house, so everything is welcome. To have them all see that war as their current doorway back to their heart, which is what we do out there too, isn't. Yeah, you know, we take whatever's here now and work with it and use it as a hence the no need for a structure, because whatever is there is the doorway back to the house, so everything is welcome.
29:41

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And that applies to me. When I'm out there, if something goes not the way I expect it, if you know that's I've learned that don't have expectations. But if something goes the the way, I don't expect it. That's a doorway. Always. It's a doorway back to the heart. And that applies to me. When I'm out there, if something goes not the way I expect it, if you know that's I've learned that don't have expectations. But if something goes the the way, I don't expect it. That's a doorway. Always. It's a doorway back to the heart.
29:57

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That's right, blisters, dust, pain. That's right, blisters, dust, pain.
30:03

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I remember a big lesson for me last time on the last walk. I remember a big lesson for me last time on the last walk.
30:09

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And. And.
30:11

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We were at. We were at.
30:13

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We were before in Lunga Pass. We were before in Lunga Pass.
30:15

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And we'd walk down the dirt track to the water tanks to fill our water bottles and we're in circle. Before we departed and I had both my knees were playing up. Normally I have one knee playing up, but both knees in stereo giving me the same pain. And so I thought, this is here's my doorway. I've got both knees giving me stereo stereoscopic pain. And it's not even uphill yet. We're on the flat. Something's going on, so I'm going to name it. So I stood in the circle and I said both my knees are playing up. And as soon as I named it. And we'd walk down the dirt track to the water tanks to fill our water bottles and we're in circle. Before we departed and I had both my knees were playing up. Normally I have one knee playing up, but both knees in stereo giving me the same pain. And so I thought, this is here's my doorway. I've got both knees giving me stereo stereoscopic pain. And it's not even uphill yet. We're on the flat. Something's going on, so I'm going to name it. So I stood in the circle and I said both my knees are playing up. And as soon as I named it.
30:46

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What happened was I got to ask these younger fellows for help to carry some of my weight because I had four or five litres of water, 5 litres of water, 5 kilograms of water. And as the tears rolled down my cheeks, I kept talking and asking for someone to help me carry 1 kilogram of water while all the young fellows, not all more than enough, volunteered. But the the humility, I had to. What happened was I got to ask these younger fellows for help to carry some of my weight because I had four or five litres of water, 5 litres of water, 5 kilograms of water. And as the tears rolled down my cheeks, I kept talking and asking for someone to help me carry 1 kilogram of water while all the young fellows, not all more than enough, volunteered. But the the humility, I had to.
31:16

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Allow in in order to ask for help was huge. Hmm. So how has it changed me? Allow in in order to ask for help was huge. Hmm. So how has it changed me?
31:25

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I'm humbled again. Yeah. Yeah. I'm humbled again. Yeah. Yeah.
31:31

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Yeah, that was a big one, yeah. Yeah, that was a big one, yeah.
31:33

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And and I know it's big when the tears are like crocodile tears coming down my face and I'm still trying to talk and I'm talking, yeah, and asking for help. Not often. It hasn't been often in my past that I've been able to ask for help. And I reckon there's a lot of men that are like that. They can't ask for help. And and I know it's big when the tears are like crocodile tears coming down my face and I'm still trying to talk and I'm talking, yeah, and asking for help. Not often. It hasn't been often in my past that I've been able to ask for help. And I reckon there's a lot of men that are like that. They can't ask for help.
31:50

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Doesn't go well. And our culture does it. No, no, not, not, not talk that one. No, no, we're not. Doesn't go well. And our culture does it. No, no, not, not, not talk that one. No, no, we're not.
31:58

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So we've done this thing 545 times and we've managed not to kill anyone. We've only had to take someone to hospital once. So we've done this thing 545 times and we've managed not to kill anyone. We've only had to take someone to hospital once.
32:04

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And and and and it really is incredibly. And and and and it really is incredibly.
32:09

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Risky Business and. Risky Business and.
32:11

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On one level, that's what works, because it's got this kind of raw edge that you know once you start walking. On one level, that's what works, because it's got this kind of raw edge that you know once you start walking.
32:18

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You either got to get to the other end or probably get flown out by helicopter. You either got to get to the other end or probably get flown out by helicopter.
32:23

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Either live in a body bag because it's. Yeah, it's there's no, there's no escape. There's no escape. There's no, there's no exit plan. So everyone is committed. Yeah, yeah, you know. Either live in a body bag because it's. Yeah, it's there's no, there's no escape. There's no escape. There's no, there's no exit plan. So everyone is committed. Yeah, yeah, you know.
32:34

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And now that we've taken this. And now that we've taken this.
32:37

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Process. And we've refined it over four walks and feel like we've really got hold of the thing and got it done. We're going to give it a go. We're trying it on a different location. It's not so arduous, not so dangerous. Process. And we've refined it over four walks and feel like we've really got hold of the thing and got it done. We're going to give it a go. We're trying it on a different location. It's not so arduous, not so dangerous.
32:52

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And and. And and.
32:54

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And allows for the depth of the process to go deeper because. And allows for the depth of the process to go deeper because.
32:60

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We've noticed that, you know, as we've got we're both, you know, five years aged. We've noticed that, you know, as we've got we're both, you know, five years aged.
33:05

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That we haven't got the umph. That we haven't got the umph.
33:07

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Can we can we transfer it to another location and make it more involved? Yeah. And and as I walked last year and we were walking for whatever. Can we can we transfer it to another location and make it more involved? Yeah. And and as I walked last year and we were walking for whatever.
33:17

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100 hours or something like that. The one thing that kept repeating was it doesn't have to be this hard. Yes, challenge is important, but it doesn't have to be this hard. And and and regularly I said that to you. This is the message I'm getting from country or it doesn't need to be this hard. So we've chosen Morton Island just off Brisbane. 100 hours or something like that. The one thing that kept repeating was it doesn't have to be this hard. Yes, challenge is important, but it doesn't have to be this hard. And and and regularly I said that to you. This is the message I'm getting from country or it doesn't need to be this hard. So we've chosen Morton Island just off Brisbane.
33:39

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Because it's pristine National Park. It's beautiful country. We've both been out there. Because it's pristine National Park. It's beautiful country. We've both been out there.
33:46

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And we can spend more time in the doing the work and less time trudging. And we can spend more time in the doing the work and less time trudging.
33:52

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Up and down hills, right? It's all flat. It's beautiful. Up and down hills, right? It's all flat. It's beautiful.
33:56

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And and it's cheaper. We don't have to pay for all those support vehicle and and and expensive food and airfares and et cetera. And it won't be as cold because it gets down to -8 degrees. One night it got down to an that was wild wasn't it was freezing our water bottles throws. And and it's cheaper. We don't have to pay for all those support vehicle and and and expensive food and airfares and et cetera. And it won't be as cold because it gets down to -8 degrees. One night it got down to an that was wild wasn't it was freezing our water bottles throws.
34:14

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Ohh, don't sleep in a riverbed. Sleep in a bit of bed. Yeah, we learned a lot. Ohh, don't sleep in a riverbed. Sleep in a bit of bed. Yeah, we learned a lot.
34:21

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Oh, oh, but I know I love that country. I'm gonna miss it. I I really, I've been touched deeply by by those. I too love it. And I'm going back this year with my wife and her family. We're taking mixed couples out there for for half the Larapinta Trail, the easy half. So we're going to do it easily. Oh, oh, but I know I love that country. I'm gonna miss it. I I really, I've been touched deeply by by those. I too love it. And I'm going back this year with my wife and her family. We're taking mixed couples out there for for half the Larapinta Trail, the easy half. So we're going to do it easily.
34:44

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Yeah, I love it out there. I I know I'll be back and back. Yeah, I love it out there. I I know I'll be back and back.
34:55

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So what is it? So what is it?
34:58

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At the end of the day, that takes you there or makes you do what you do and step up the way you have. Umm. At the end of the day, that takes you there or makes you do what you do and step up the way you have. Umm.
35:11

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Well, when I really am honest with myself, John, that. Well, when I really am honest with myself, John, that.
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As you said many years, I was a seeker and that seeking was to come to a possibility of myself that I could be in the world. As you said many years, I was a seeker and that seeking was to come to a possibility of myself that I could be in the world.
35:30

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And not be a reflection of my pain or my suffering, but actually could be a reflection of the whole and the beautiful and the loving human being that I am. And not be a reflection of my pain or my suffering, but actually could be a reflection of the whole and the beautiful and the loving human being that I am.
35:42

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And to be of service to. And to be of service to.
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That love, and to fellow humanity, I. That love, and to fellow humanity, I.
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And I. And I.
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I mean for me as a human being to be given this gift of being able to to provide this vehicle for other men. I mean for me as a human being to be given this gift of being able to to provide this vehicle for other men.
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And to provide an opportunity for me to be a Co creator with life and to be able to share the facilitation and in that beautiful dance that we play out there. But it always, always be in this. And to provide an opportunity for me to be a Co creator with life and to be able to share the facilitation and in that beautiful dance that we play out there. But it always, always be in this.
36:22

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Wonderful. Wonderful.
36:23

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Vessel of service. It's been such an enriching and life affirming. Vessel of service. It's been such an enriching and life affirming.
36:31

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Process and the gift to do. Process and the gift to do.
36:34

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And and that's. And and that's.
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Really, all there is left in life to do after I've done my growing. What's left is the bit that wants to serve. Hmm. And and it's, it's, yes, it's men, but it's this the the, the, the bit of men. Really, all there is left in life to do after I've done my growing. What's left is the bit that wants to serve. Hmm. And and it's, it's, yes, it's men, but it's this the the, the, the bit of men.
36:48

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That that is so needed in this world which is the the the the the loving. Yeah. I mean to be empowered masculine loving man. Yeah. Not the not the, you know the weak kind of snaggy sort of loving hang off. But this man that can hold integrity and and and and be the the full potential of years and we call it love. You know it has so many other different flavours. Yeah. But in the end it comes back to that and yeah and to be in service to that. That that is so needed in this world which is the the the the the loving. Yeah. I mean to be empowered masculine loving man. Yeah. Not the not the, you know the weak kind of snaggy sort of loving hang off. But this man that can hold integrity and and and and be the the full potential of years and we call it love. You know it has so many other different flavours. Yeah. But in the end it comes back to that and yeah and to be in service to that.
37:18

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Yeah, really. And hold to that. So why? Because I get to serve, Yeah. I get to serve myself. I get to serve others, Yeah. Yeah, really. And hold to that. So why? Because I get to serve, Yeah. I get to serve myself. I get to serve others, Yeah.
37:27

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Yeah, you mentioned the the components of a rite of passage. And yeah, my brief study of the anthropologists written stories about successful tribes, the ones that made it, They put an enormous amount of effort into the right of passage for teenage boys into manhood. Why? Because they need men who can serve from the strong masculine presence and and in serving, they're providing a safe container for the women. Yeah, you mentioned the the components of a rite of passage. And yeah, my brief study of the anthropologists written stories about successful tribes, the ones that made it, They put an enormous amount of effort into the right of passage for teenage boys into manhood. Why? Because they need men who can serve from the strong masculine presence and and in serving, they're providing a safe container for the women.
37:58

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The children in the community, because if they didn't then another tribe would take their women and children, Simply put, or their land or their food or whatever. So they need a strong, loving, masculine that will that he's not in the role for himself, but he's in the role for the community he lives in and in a broader sense that we're here, we're in terms of men's well-being community or our communities where we live. The children in the community, because if they didn't then another tribe would take their women and children, Simply put, or their land or their food or whatever. So they need a strong, loving, masculine that will that he's not in the role for himself, but he's in the role for the community he lives in and in a broader sense that we're here, we're in terms of men's well-being community or our communities where we live.
38:23

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We are. We are.
38:25

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Helping men find that in themselves. We don't teach it, and clearly we can't teach it. We can only ask the questions so they find in themselves that healthy, loving, strong, masculine presence. Helping men find that in themselves. We don't teach it, and clearly we can't teach it. We can only ask the questions so they find in themselves that healthy, loving, strong, masculine presence.
38:37

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That sounds for and their families. Yeah. Yeah. And the world and yeah. Yeah. So that's why I do it. And I yeah. And I I often. That sounds for and their families. Yeah. Yeah. And the world and yeah. Yeah. So that's why I do it. And I yeah. And I I often.
38:49

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2. 2.
38:50

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And often come to the. And often come to the.
38:53

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If people ask why do I do it? Because I make an ordinary, extraordinary effort and I always, always fall back on I'm come in service. But I have to add, I'm deeply rewarded by that. If people ask why do I do it? Because I make an ordinary, extraordinary effort and I always, always fall back on I'm come in service. But I have to add, I'm deeply rewarded by that.
39:03

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That's the nature of the beast. Yeah, it is. It just, I just get filled up. It's like kind of petrol station. I just get filled up with my love and their love. Hmm. So I can do it some more. That's the nature of the beast. Yeah, it is. It just, I just get filled up. It's like kind of petrol station. I just get filled up with my love and their love. Hmm. So I can do it some more.
39:14

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So I mean it's a correct flow if we're talking about an energetic flow, this is the correct flow. Yeah, it's in the right way, yeah. When you, when you give off your heart then you get back tenfold and that's, that's what. So I mean it's a correct flow if we're talking about an energetic flow, this is the correct flow. Yeah, it's in the right way, yeah. When you, when you give off your heart then you get back tenfold and that's, that's what.
39:26

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And yet we do it not for that reason, but that's a byproduct. Exactly. Yeah. And yet we do it not for that reason, but that's a byproduct. Exactly. Yeah.
39:32

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It's great. It's good to actually spend time talking about it. Yeah. So thank you. Beautiful thing we do. Yeah. It's great. It's good to actually spend time talking about it. Yeah. So thank you. Beautiful thing we do. Yeah.