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Okay, we're on. Okay, we're on.
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Okay, it's Sunday the 1st of May and uh, we're at Manshine 2016. I'm John Rosenberg, I'm 51 years old, um, and I'm uh, having a conversation with [Andrew] Andrew Blakely, and I am 34. Okay, it's Sunday the 1st of May and uh, we're at Manshine 2016. I'm John Rosenberg, I'm 51 years old, um, and I'm uh, having a conversation with [Andrew] Andrew Blakely, and I am 34.
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One of the things that I am really interested in- in doing in this conversation is talking about One of the things that I am really interested in- in doing in this conversation is talking about
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Your experiences as a- as a uh, first timer at a men's gathering, and my experience as a man who's been to a lot of- a lot of men's gatherings. [Andrew] Right. [John] Because I think that there's different experiences that we bring to uh, to this gathering and to this conversation. Uh, each has its own wisdom. We each have our own knowing, and I- I think it would be really interesting to talk about the way that we experi- or the ways that we experience this gathering uh, differently and- and alike. Your experiences as a- as a uh, first timer at a men's gathering, and my experience as a man who's been to a lot of- a lot of men's gatherings. [Andrew] Right. [John] Because I think that there's different experiences that we bring to uh, to this gathering and to this conversation. Uh, each has its own wisdom. We each have our own knowing, and I- I think it would be really interesting to talk about the way that we experi- or the ways that we experience this gathering uh, differently and- and alike.
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[Andrew] Sounds good. [laughter] [John] Okay. I, I wanted to ask this question of you about f- what- what brought you here? Why are you here at Manshine? [Andrew] Well, I've uh, basically been looking into to- this type of uh- a men's um, organization or something. I've- I've been yearning for it, I guess for the last 10 years of my life. And um, it's really come to a- a head earlier this year when my wife um, participated in one of the women's well-being gatherings. [Andrew] Sounds good. [laughter] [John] Okay. I, I wanted to ask this question of you about f- what- what brought you here? Why are you here at Manshine? [Andrew] Well, I've uh, basically been looking into to- this type of uh- a men's um, organization or something. I've- I've been yearning for it, I guess for the last 10 years of my life. And um, it's really come to a- a head earlier this year when my wife um, participated in one of the women's well-being gatherings.
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And I saw the- the impact that that had on her um, from that uh, involvement with that community and thought there has to be something like this for men. So by researching women's well-being, I found the 'brother group', so to speak, being men's well-being, and um, saw that there was Manshine coming up, and that it was close by, being a SE Queenslander. And I saw the- the impact that that had on her um, from that uh, involvement with that community and thought there has to be something like this for men. So by researching women's well-being, I found the 'brother group', so to speak, being men's well-being, and um, saw that there was Manshine coming up, and that it was close by, being a SE Queenslander.
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And I thought, Yep, I'm committing, I'm going. I'm gonna get the uh, the super early bloke special. And I thought, Yep, I'm committing, I'm going. I'm gonna get the uh, the super early bloke special.
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I'm uh [laughter] I'm gonna jump in with both feet, so and here I am, and it's um I'm uh [laughter] I'm gonna jump in with both feet, so and here I am, and it's um
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Needless to say it has been a very Needless to say it has been a very
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Interesting and opening experience for me. Interesting and opening experience for me.
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[John] 'kay. [John] 'kay.
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I um, I wonder if we can talk a bit more about that in a minute, 'cause I- I'd like to talk about my own experience of coming into um, into Manshine as well. [Andrew] Absolutely. [John] So, um, I've been coming to men's gatherings, uh for probably about 12 years, um, so I've probably been to about 15 or 16. I um, I wonder if we can talk a bit more about that in a minute, 'cause I- I'd like to talk about my own experience of coming into um, into Manshine as well. [Andrew] Absolutely. [John] So, um, I've been coming to men's gatherings, uh for probably about 12 years, um, so I've probably been to about 15 or 16.
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So, I guess there are two things I'd say. One- one is why I came in the 1st place and then why I s- keep coming back. So, I guess there are two things I'd say. One- one is why I came in the 1st place and then why I s- keep coming back.
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So, so the reason I first started doing um, uh, men's work was I- I started with Common Ground, ah, and then in the middle of Common Ground, the facilitator said, um, "We're not here next week because we'll all be recovering from Manshine". And I thought, Well, what the Hell's that? And [laughter] you know uh, and so the facilitator o-of- of Common Ground, the [...] talk- talked to us about So, so the reason I first started doing um, uh, men's work was I- I started with Common Ground, ah, and then in the middle of Common Ground, the facilitator said, um, "We're not here next week because we'll all be recovering from Manshine". And I thought, Well, what the Hell's that? And [laughter] you know uh, and so the facilitator o-of- of Common Ground, the [...] talk- talked to us about
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About uh, Manshine and this idea of a gathering. About uh, Manshine and this idea of a gathering.
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And uh-uh yeah, I- I'd done a lot of personal development work, but I'd never done anything specifically focused on men, masculinity, myself as a man. And uh-uh yeah, I- I'd done a lot of personal development work, but I'd never done anything specifically focused on men, masculinity, myself as a man.
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I'm a husband and I'm a father, ah and a dog owner. [Laughter] So, you know that there's this sense of m- my, uh, my role as a man that kinda wasn't well defined. Um, I'm also, [Andrew] Are you- [John] I'm also a nurse by profession, so I work amongst women, um [Andrew] Sure. [John] and I have a- a I'm a husband and I'm a father, ah and a dog owner. [Laughter] So, you know that there's this sense of m- my, uh, my role as a man that kinda wasn't well defined. Um, I'm also, [Andrew] Are you- [John] I'm also a nurse by profession, so I work amongst women, um [Andrew] Sure. [John] and I have a- a
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Great number of uh, friends who are women. So, you know there wasn't- there wasn't a lot of the masculine [Andrew] Yep. [John] -in my life. So that- that was- that was part of what um, what uh, motivated me to- to- to come to the men's gathering. Great number of uh, friends who are women. So, you know there wasn't- there wasn't a lot of the masculine [Andrew] Yep. [John] -in my life. So that- that was- that was part of what um, what uh, motivated me to- to- to come to the men's gathering.
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Why do I keep coming back? Ah, Why do I keep coming back? Ah,
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Because this, this journey of um, personal development never stops in- in my life and so this is one of the things I do to keep that happening. [Andrew] To service that. [John] Absolutely. Yeah. It's- it's a bit, it's a bit like servicing this old uh, this old carcass of mine. You know, [Laughter] this uh- 51 isn't a carcass yet, but um, yeah, you know I- I just, I'm here to r-renew, and to delve deeper and to be Because this, this journey of um, personal development never stops in- in my life and so this is one of the things I do to keep that happening. [Andrew] To service that. [John] Absolutely. Yeah. It's- it's a bit, it's a bit like servicing this old uh, this old carcass of mine. You know, [Laughter] this uh- 51 isn't a carcass yet, but um, yeah, you know I- I just, I'm here to r-renew, and to delve deeper and to be
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uh, scared by stuff, and to be drawn to stuff and to experience joy in it too. So. [Andrew] Great. [John] Yeah, that's- that's part of what um, what's happening for me. [Andrew] Yeah. I can certainly relate, uh as far as those emotions you just described and the- the experiences it's... it is, as I mentioned before, very opening, so. uh, scared by stuff, and to be drawn to stuff and to experience joy in it too. So. [Andrew] Great. [John] Yeah, that's- that's part of what um, what's happening for me. [Andrew] Yeah. I can certainly relate, uh as far as those emotions you just described and the- the experiences it's... it is, as I mentioned before, very opening, so.
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The space to be able to share um, some of the personal struggles that- that I have and that we have, as men, um, that's safe, uh The space to be able to share um, some of the personal struggles that- that I have and that we have, as men, um, that's safe, uh
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trusting, supportive community, that's created by this group, I think... is wonderful. Uh, I- I can't, uh trusting, supportive community, that's created by this group, I think... is wonderful. Uh, I- I can't, uh
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certainly cannot put it down, that is for sure, and- and I wouldn't want to. certainly cannot put it down, that is for sure, and- and I wouldn't want to.
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It's a space, I think, that- that we need in society at the moment. Uh, especially with the- the current mentality of- of downtroddeness that- that sometimes gets cast over men in general but probably um, a-adults in general in our- our sort of western um, western society, but um. It's a space, I think, that- that we need in society at the moment. Uh, especially with the- the current mentality of- of downtroddeness that- that sometimes gets cast over men in general but probably um, a-adults in general in our- our sort of western um, western society, but um.
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Coming here has- I- I tried not to have any expectations. Coming here has- I- I tried not to have any expectations.
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When- When-
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When I uh, committed to come, obviously there were- there was some information on the- the workshops and- and certain things to be expected, but uh, as much as that was When I uh, committed to come, obviously there were- there was some information on the- the workshops and- and certain things to be expected, but uh, as much as that was
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Summarized, I- I just tried to come with an open mind, and I've been rewarded by an amazing experience. So it's um, Summarized, I- I just tried to come with an open mind, and I've been rewarded by an amazing experience. So it's um,
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It's certainly not a walk in the park, but it is- it's very rewarding. Um, I'm feeling uplifted. Um, I've f-felt the emotion of some of the other men. It's certainly not a walk in the park, but it is- it's very rewarding. Um, I'm feeling uplifted. Um, I've f-felt the emotion of some of the other men.
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been- been emotionally touched in- in that regard through the- the trust um, that- that some of the men have um, by sharing their stories. Um, and by going through the workshops, and the- the wisdom of the facilitators um, along with the- the- uh, elders of the community as well, and just being able to converse with men from all different walks of life and been- been emotionally touched in- in that regard through the- the trust um, that- that some of the men have um, by sharing their stories. Um, and by going through the workshops, and the- the wisdom of the facilitators um, along with the- the- uh, elders of the community as well, and just being able to converse with men from all different walks of life and
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just, just chat with them, just talk to them. just, just chat with them, just talk to them.
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That- that openness of conversation that you can have here, uh, the barriers are, are broken down. That- that openness of conversation that you can have here, uh, the barriers are, are broken down.
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It's very refreshing. So, I'm- I'm normally a very open person um, and I- I try to- to be that way and- and maintain um, integrity in that regard as well, and to see that reflected in a lot of men here is- it's- yeah, like I said, very refreshing. So, it's um, it's a very welcome change in my life, so. Being in the construction industry, um, there's a very, it's- it's probably polar um, to being It's very refreshing. So, I'm- I'm normally a very open person um, and I- I try to- to be that way and- and maintain um, integrity in that regard as well, and to see that reflected in a lot of men here is- it's- yeah, like I said, very refreshing. So, it's um, it's a very welcome change in my life, so. Being in the construction industry, um, there's a very, it's- it's probably polar um, to being
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Being a nurse. [John] Mm. [Andrew] Um, there are a lot of men in the construction industry, um, there's a lot of gruffness and- and machoness that- that comes with the construction industry, so Being a nurse. [John] Mm. [Andrew] Um, there are a lot of men in the construction industry, um, there's a lot of gruffness and- and machoness that- that comes with the construction industry, so
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With that, I think, comes a lot of fear from men individually um, being in that- that group, fear of sharing their emotion for fear of being put down, and With that, I think, comes a lot of fear from men individually um, being in that- that group, fear of sharing their emotion for fear of being put down, and
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And um, And um,
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Being in a space like this, is uh, again, very refreshing. [Laughter] [John] I- I picked up on um, something you said there about it not being a walk in the park, and uh, you know within the bounds of- of what you're uh, [clang] happy to share.  Being in a space like this, is uh, again, very refreshing. [Laughter] [John] I- I picked up on um, something you said there about it not being a walk in the park, and uh, you know within the bounds of- of what you're uh, [clang] happy to share. 
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You know, what um, w-what are some of the challenges that you've experienced uh, in participating in- in this men's gathering? You know, what um, w-what are some of the challenges that you've experienced uh, in participating in- in this men's gathering?
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[Andrew] Again, I- I personally am- am [Andrew] Again, I- I personally am- am
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Consider myself to be open, but coming from that background um, the- again not to- to stigmatise the- the construction industry, but um, Consider myself to be open, but coming from that background um, the- again not to- to stigmatise the- the construction industry, but um,
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Not sharing the depth of emotion um, that- that comes along with- with our stories, or with my story uh, Not sharing the depth of emotion um, that- that comes along with- with our stories, or with my story uh,
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And- and feeling And- and feeling
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the pain from some of the other men as well, that's relating to that and being able to- to sit with that. the pain from some of the other men as well, that's relating to that and being able to- to sit with that.
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It can be a struggle. It can be a struggle.
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To feel- to feel their pain, um. To feel my own pain, from my own- my own story, my own struggles that I've had, and to revisit some of those things to identify if uh, if there's further healing to be done. So, by that, it can be To feel- to feel their pain, um. To feel my own pain, from my own- my own story, my own struggles that I've had, and to revisit some of those things to identify if uh, if there's further healing to be done. So, by that, it can be
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It can be a bit of a struggle, but um, It can be a bit of a struggle, but um,
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It's something that if you're willing to make the effort to- to go through, it's- it's met with those rewards, [John] Mm. [Andrew] Uh, of- of healing, of- of sharing, of community, um, of a deeper form of- of mateship, I guess, um, that It's something that if you're willing to make the effort to- to go through, it's- it's met with those rewards, [John] Mm. [Andrew] Uh, of- of healing, of- of sharing, of community, um, of a deeper form of- of mateship, I guess, um, that
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The surface relationships um, that you have outside of here just, generally don't have.  That I generally don't have. The surface relationships um, that you have outside of here just, generally don't have.  That I generally don't have.
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[John] Do you have m-uh, mates outside of here that [John] Do you have m-uh, mates outside of here that
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Go- your friendships go beyond that superficial? [Andrew] Look I- I could probably only say that I have one or two. [John] Mm. [Andrew] So, from Go- your friendships go beyond that superficial? [Andrew] Look I- I could probably only say that I have one or two. [John] Mm. [Andrew] So, from
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the the
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teenage years of my life, teenage years of my life,
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To um, to where I am now. Obviously having a- a large social circle then um, then getting married, it um, it shrinks that social circle a bit, uh, but for- with- for good reason as well, it- it kind of starts cutting the fat out of your- your life in a way, there's- there's ah, so many superficial relationships, if I can call them that, not to discredit any of the- the so-called friends that I [laughter] that I had during that time but, To um, to where I am now. Obviously having a- a large social circle then um, then getting married, it um, it shrinks that social circle a bit, uh, but for- with- for good reason as well, it- it kind of starts cutting the fat out of your- your life in a way, there's- there's ah, so many superficial relationships, if I can call them that, not to discredit any of the- the so-called friends that I [laughter] that I had during that time but,
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Have- have- getting married, then having children um, and- and then having more children. So, we have three children. Have- have- getting married, then having children um, and- and then having more children. So, we have three children.
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Living that life and then needing to focus on my career as well as my family, the- the mates that I had have shrunk down to really the- the ones that I- I can consider to be very important. Living that life and then needing to focus on my career as well as my family, the- the mates that I had have shrunk down to really the- the ones that I- I can consider to be very important.
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And it, ah, out of those one or two mates, um, there's probably another three or four that are the next step along. Uh. And it, ah, out of those one or two mates, um, there's probably another three or four that are the next step along. Uh.
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That I could, uh, go sort of halfway with, half- half deep [laughter]. That I could, uh, go sort of halfway with, half- half deep [laughter].
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But uh- [John] You're a- you're a half deep rather than a half shallow kind of guy, by the sound of it. [laughter] [Andrew] Yeah. But uh- [John] You're a- you're a half deep rather than a half shallow kind of guy, by the sound of it. [laughter] [Andrew] Yeah.
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I like to dive in. [laughter] I like to dive in. [laughter]
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Can be to my own detriment at times, but um, certainly not in this uh, in this space at Manshine. [John] With um, you know, one of the things that has happened for me and that I've observed in o-other men, over the years that I've been coming to uh, to men's gatherings, is that um. There are friendships that are formed here, that are taken from here, outside to the real world. [Andrew] That's uh- [John] If I can do that with air quotes. [laughter] Can be to my own detriment at times, but um, certainly not in this uh, in this space at Manshine. [John] With um, you know, one of the things that has happened for me and that I've observed in o-other men, over the years that I've been coming to uh, to men's gatherings, is that um. There are friendships that are formed here, that are taken from here, outside to the real world. [Andrew] That's uh- [John] If I can do that with air quotes. [laughter]
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But also, uh, you know, I mean, I- I experienced, I- I guess an enrichment of my existing friendships um, as a result of- of uh, attending these- these gatherings. But also, uh, you know, I mean, I- I experienced, I- I guess an enrichment of my existing friendships um, as a result of- of uh, attending these- these gatherings.
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So that it- it wasn't just So that it- it wasn't just
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constrained to the guys that I met here that I was beginning to, sort of, socialise with or meet up with in men's group, [Andrew] Sure. [John] but- but that my other f-friendships were- were benefiting from it too. constrained to the guys that I met here that I was beginning to, sort of, socialise with or meet up with in men's group, [Andrew] Sure. [John] but- but that my other f-friendships were- were benefiting from it too.
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So I- I mean, I said, you know, I've done a lot of personal development work before I started attending men's groups. And, ah, I guess, you know, many of my friendships were already pretty deep. Like you, you know, that- there's the- there's that inner circle of depth- [Andrew] That's right. [John] and it's a bit like an inverted cone, y'know? [Andrew] Exactly. [John] You know, you've got the real deep ones at th- at th- and you just come up and, and- and- [Andrew] That's right. [John] Yeah, and um, not- not being a shy type um, you know, a large circle of friends at that sort of superficial So I- I mean, I said, you know, I've done a lot of personal development work before I started attending men's groups. And, ah, I guess, you know, many of my friendships were already pretty deep. Like you, you know, that- there's the- there's that inner circle of depth- [Andrew] That's right. [John] and it's a bit like an inverted cone, y'know? [Andrew] Exactly. [John] You know, you've got the real deep ones at th- at th- and you just come up and, and- and- [Andrew] That's right. [John] Yeah, and um, not- not being a shy type um, you know, a large circle of friends at that sort of superficial
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Social level. [Andrew] Yeah, yep. [John] Yeah, yeah. But um, so I mean, I found that perhaps it has given me different Social level. [Andrew] Yeah, yep. [John] Yeah, yeah. But um, so I mean, I found that perhaps it has given me different
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Language, and- and- and some of the learnings I guess that I've brought away from here um, are influencing those existing or pre-existing relationships. Language, and- and- and some of the learnings I guess that I've brought away from here um, are influencing those existing or pre-existing relationships.
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[Andrew] Yeah, I can certainly see that's um, there's potential for that, just uh, the way that I'm learning to communicate differently. [John] Mm. [Andrew] Yeah, I can certainly see that's um, there's potential for that, just uh, the way that I'm learning to communicate differently. [John] Mm.
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[Andrew] Yeah, I can- I can certainly see there's gonna be impacts beyond this weekend um, that are positive impacts, things that are going to uh [Andrew] Yeah, I can- I can certainly see there's gonna be impacts beyond this weekend um, that are positive impacts, things that are going to uh
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As you mentioned, enrich uh, relationships outside of this As you mentioned, enrich uh, relationships outside of this
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men's well-being circle, this Manshine um, community. [John] Yeah. [Andrew] So it's um. men's well-being circle, this Manshine um, community. [John] Yeah. [Andrew] So it's um.
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Yeah, definitely looking forward to see what transpires over the coming weeks. [John] Yeah. Do you have any uh, do you have any sort of hints that you think are being shown, uh like little- little um, seeds that have been sown already? So we're only halfway through- the gathering [Andrew] Yeah. [John] That- that you're going to take with you? [Andrew] Ah, that's right. John, you do go deep, don't you? Yeah, definitely looking forward to see what transpires over the coming weeks. [John] Yeah. Do you have any uh, do you have any sort of hints that you think are being shown, uh like little- little um, seeds that have been sown already? So we're only halfway through- the gathering [Andrew] Yeah. [John] That- that you're going to take with you? [Andrew] Ah, that's right. John, you do go deep, don't you?
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Look, I could probably Look, I could probably
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I think one of the things that may um, be an immediate effect would be the relationship I have with my sons. So, it's- it was something I was always aware of, of trying to uh, nurture, as- as well as nurturing the relationship with my daughter. But um, being in that position to be the man that I need to be, as their father and- and to show them uh, I think one of the things that may um, be an immediate effect would be the relationship I have with my sons. So, it's- it was something I was always aware of, of trying to uh, nurture, as- as well as nurturing the relationship with my daughter. But um, being in that position to be the man that I need to be, as their father and- and to show them uh,
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the vulnerability, that a man the vulnerability, that a man
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can have, and- and should have as part of being a man. Um, we're not just this hard shell that needs to be bouncing all the worries of the world um, [John] Mm. [Andrew] -away. So, and I guess for the most extent of um, my fathering I have- I have probably been too hard in that regard and this- this is identifying to me that that's- that's certainly an area in my life that I can can have, and- and should have as part of being a man. Um, we're not just this hard shell that needs to be bouncing all the worries of the world um, [John] Mm. [Andrew] -away. So, and I guess for the most extent of um, my fathering I have- I have probably been too hard in that regard and this- this is identifying to me that that's- that's certainly an area in my life that I can
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loosen up a bit in front of my boys and show them that it's okay to be vulnerable. Um, it's part of being a man, and it helps you to be a better man. [John] Mm. loosen up a bit in front of my boys and show them that it's okay to be vulnerable. Um, it's part of being a man, and it helps you to be a better man. [John] Mm.
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Robbie Williams just suddenly came to mind in his song about being a better man. Um yeah, which uh, might have been before your time, young fellow. I don't know. [Andrew] Oh, no, no. Robbie Williams just suddenly came to mind in his song about being a better man. Um yeah, which uh, might have been before your time, young fellow. I don't know. [Andrew] Oh, no, no.
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[laughter] [laughter]
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[John] Yeah, I just uh- you know, reflecting on what you're uh, on what you're saying and- and um, yeah that yearning that um, that you've described and that- that I've experienced too, you know, to- to be a better man, to be a better um, partner, um, to be a better father, to be better at my job. [Andrew] Yep. [clears throat] [John] Uh, and to be more connected. [John] Yeah, I just uh- you know, reflecting on what you're uh, on what you're saying and- and um, yeah that yearning that um, that you've described and that- that I've experienced too, you know, to- to be a better man, to be a better um, partner, um, to be a better father, to be better at my job. [Andrew] Yep. [clears throat] [John] Uh, and to be more connected.
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[Andrew] Yeah, I think that's- that's probably a key as well, is to [Andrew] Yeah, I think that's- that's probably a key as well, is to
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get that connection, however you're wanting to be connected, you need to get that connection, however you're wanting to be connected, you need to
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need to know really who you are. need to know really who you are.
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And I think that's- [John] Mm. [Andrew] that's, probably one of the things that um, that I also needed to come and experience this to really know who I am. So- [John] Mm. [Andrew] Self discovery is um, very much a part of it and uh- [John] Yeah. And I think that's- [John] Mm. [Andrew] that's, probably one of the things that um, that I also needed to come and experience this to really know who I am. So- [John] Mm. [Andrew] Self discovery is um, very much a part of it and uh- [John] Yeah.
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[Andrew] And I'm- I'm certainly getting [Andrew] And I'm- I'm certainly getting
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getting a good feel of that- [John] [laughter] [Andrew] -during this weekend so far. [John] Yeah. getting a good feel of that- [John] [laughter] [Andrew] -during this weekend so far. [John] Yeah.
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[Andrew] So, um. [Andrew] So, um.
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Yeah, look, I- Yeah, look, I-
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I cannot compliment uh, I cannot compliment uh,
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The- the organisers and the- the men that are here um, enough, [John] Mm. [Andrew] for- for what this The- the organisers and the- the men that are here um, enough, [John] Mm. [Andrew] for- for what this
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gathering this uh, this community has created. It's uh, gathering this uh, this community has created. It's uh,
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Yeah, it's Yeah, it's
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Very much what I needed in my life, I think. Very much what I needed in my life, I think.
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[John] Mm. [John] Mm.
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One of the things that I have observed over the years is- is that One of the things that I have observed over the years is- is that
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the association, men's well-being, is a community of men. So whilst there's a- there's a uh, uh, governance body, a- a board or a committee or whatever their name they call themselves, you know th-there is that group and- and, you know, organizing large groups of people requires there to be, you know, the usual administration [Andrew] Of course. [John] of an association. [Andrew] Yep. [John] But what- what it is the association, men's well-being, is a community of men. So whilst there's a- there's a uh, uh, governance body, a- a board or a committee or whatever their name they call themselves, you know th-there is that group and- and, you know, organizing large groups of people requires there to be, you know, the usual administration [Andrew] Of course. [John] of an association. [Andrew] Yep. [John] But what- what it is
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Which is what you said Which is what you said
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Is it is a community. It's a community of men and indeed it's a community of women because um, the- the women in our lives are uh, are- are sort of affiliated almost with um, [Andrew] Ah, absolutely. [John] with this, and- and then there's women, women's well-being as well. [Andrew] Yeah. [John] To me, that's that's the big difference is that there's the interconnection between men that creates this association. Is it is a community. It's a community of men and indeed it's a community of women because um, the- the women in our lives are uh, are- are sort of affiliated almost with um, [Andrew] Ah, absolutely. [John] with this, and- and then there's women, women's well-being as well. [Andrew] Yeah. [John] To me, that's that's the big difference is that there's the interconnection between men that creates this association.
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So it's not trickle down from the top, it's actually um, it's actually the men, the community that have created this association to make it work. [Andrew] Absolutely. [John] Mm. So it's not trickle down from the top, it's actually um, it's actually the men, the community that have created this association to make it work. [Andrew] Absolutely. [John] Mm.
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One of the things I wanted to uh, I wanted to talk about was um One of the things I wanted to uh, I wanted to talk about was um
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Coming into men's work um, and meeting open-hearted men, Coming into men's work um, and meeting open-hearted men,
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Meeting men who are journeying, just like me and have some of the same struggles or challenges as me um, has been one of the great benefits of- of men's work. [Andrew] Sure. [John] And I think the thing, you know, I was talking before about Meeting men who are journeying, just like me and have some of the same struggles or challenges as me um, has been one of the great benefits of- of men's work. [Andrew] Sure. [John] And I think the thing, you know, I was talking before about
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Coming in from uh, a female dominated profession, you know, I've done a lot of personal development work, as I said. So you know, I'm this kind of, sort of, you know, what some people would think was kind of a soft Coming in from uh, a female dominated profession, you know, I've done a lot of personal development work, as I said. So you know, I'm this kind of, sort of, you know, what some people would think was kind of a soft
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kind of a bloke, you know, in touch with my emotions and- [Andrew] Right, okay. [John] all that sort of stuff. So part- part of- bringing- getting me here was, because I was afraid of men. [Andrew] Okay, so you wanted to sort of be reminded of your um, masculinity, in a sense. Would that be fair? [John] I- I- I think- I'd- I'd use the word consolidate. It was sort of like it was just, you know, I- I just didn't have sort of solid kind of a bloke, you know, in touch with my emotions and- [Andrew] Right, okay. [John] all that sort of stuff. So part- part of- bringing- getting me here was, because I was afraid of men. [Andrew] Okay, so you wanted to sort of be reminded of your um, masculinity, in a sense. Would that be fair? [John] I- I- I think- I'd- I'd use the word consolidate. It was sort of like it was just, you know, I- I just didn't have sort of solid
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boundaries around my sense of myself as a man. [Andrew] Sure. [John] Um, you know I'm- I'm a functioning human being, but I [laughter] just, you know, I- I- I just, um. I was frightened of men. [Andrew] [...]. [John] So it was difficult to figure out how to- [Andrew] Or develop relationships. [John] well, how to- how to be- how to be a man, if- if- [Andrew] Yeah, okay. [John] I mean, I grew up in a small country town- [Andrew] Yep. [John] um, filled with yobbos and bogans, boundaries around my sense of myself as a man. [Andrew] Sure. [John] Um, you know I'm- I'm a functioning human being, but I [laughter] just, you know, I- I- I just, um. I was frightened of men. [Andrew] [...]. [John] So it was difficult to figure out how to- [Andrew] Or develop relationships. [John] well, how to- how to be- how to be a man, if- if- [Andrew] Yeah, okay. [John] I mean, I grew up in a small country town- [Andrew] Yep. [John] um, filled with yobbos and bogans,
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Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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And- and, you know, th-there was only one way to be a man in my hometown, in my upbringing. I couldn't get out of the place soon enough. [Andrew] That's right. Ah, look yeah. We're all different, aren't we? [John] Good at school, creative. Musical. [Andrew] Yep. [John] Um. Intelligent. You know, um. Articulate. And because [Andrew] It's, yeah. [John] I couldn't drunk- and I couldn't grunt and uh, go off and get pissed every night, um, you know, [Andrew] That's right, you had the different mold for what a man was in that community. [John] Yeah, yeah. I didn't quite fit the demographic, you know. [Andrew] Yeah, sure. [John] Um. And so I- one of the really big moments And- and, you know, th-there was only one way to be a man in my hometown, in my upbringing. I couldn't get out of the place soon enough. [Andrew] That's right. Ah, look yeah. We're all different, aren't we? [John] Good at school, creative. Musical. [Andrew] Yep. [John] Um. Intelligent. You know, um. Articulate. And because [Andrew] It's, yeah. [John] I couldn't drunk- and I couldn't grunt and uh, go off and get pissed every night, um, you know, [Andrew] That's right, you had the different mold for what a man was in that community. [John] Yeah, yeah. I didn't quite fit the demographic, you know. [Andrew] Yeah, sure. [John] Um. And so I- one of the really big moments
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for me in- in that journey h- was at the intro night of Common Ground. Um. There were some men there who weren't um, going to remain with the program, but they were experienced men who were coming in just to be supportive. [Andrew] Okay. [John] Uh, and to uh, and to, you know for me in- in that journey h- was at the intro night of Common Ground. Um. There were some men there who weren't um, going to remain with the program, but they were experienced men who were coming in just to be supportive. [Andrew] Okay. [John] Uh, and to uh, and to, you know
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round it out and f- and fill it out a bit. And one of the things we had to do is- we had- we had to go round it out and f- and fill it out a bit. And one of the things we had to do is- we had- we had to go
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to a man in this large group in the introductory night to a man in this large group in the introductory night
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who we wouldn't naturally um, go to. [Andrew] Gravitate. Okay. [John] Wouldn't gravitate to them, yeah. [Andrew] Right. [John] And uh, and so um, there was a bloke there um, and he's- he's uh well known in this community. Short, stocky. Long hair. Piercings, tattoos. All of this stuff. who we wouldn't naturally um, go to. [Andrew] Gravitate. Okay. [John] Wouldn't gravitate to them, yeah. [Andrew] Right. [John] And uh, and so um, there was a bloke there um, and he's- he's uh well known in this community. Short, stocky. Long hair. Piercings, tattoos. All of this stuff.
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And um, I just thought, oh, well, [laughter] you know. [Andrew] Here we go. [John] So I went over to him, and- and uh, you know, and h-he said, so why? And I- I told him, I said y-you're the- you're the sort of guy who looks like a man I'd be scared of. [Andrew] [That?] stereotype. [John] Yeah, absolutely. And they- they were my judgments in the same way that I was subject to the judgments of And um, I just thought, oh, well, [laughter] you know. [Andrew] Here we go. [John] So I went over to him, and- and uh, you know, and h-he said, so why? And I- I told him, I said y-you're the- you're the sort of guy who looks like a man I'd be scared of. [Andrew] [That?] stereotype. [John] Yeah, absolutely. And they- they were my judgments in the same way that I was subject to the judgments of
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others because of, [Andrew] Yep. [John] You know, being soft or being whatever, uh- [Andrew] Whatever society places upon you and your- your role. [John] Absolutely, absolutely. And- and not- and not only um, society but you know specifically the people that I worked with, the people that I uh, know, the people that I'm friends with, my family, you know. [Andrew] Sure. [John] I-It's- it's not all-  it's not all derogatory, but there is this kind of, um, others because of, [Andrew] Yep. [John] You know, being soft or being whatever, uh- [Andrew] Whatever society places upon you and your- your role. [John] Absolutely, absolutely. And- and not- and not only um, society but you know specifically the people that I worked with, the people that I uh, know, the people that I'm friends with, my family, you know. [Andrew] Sure. [John] I-It's- it's not all-  it's not all derogatory, but there is this kind of, um,
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this set of judgments that are made- [Andrew] That's right. [John] -about a man like that. [Andrew] That's it, isn't it? [John] Yeah. [Andrew] It's the judgments. It's the, yeah. And I, that's- uh, I can relate, [John] Mm. [Andrew] Very much so to that, and- and wanting to be that. this set of judgments that are made- [Andrew] That's right. [John] -about a man like that. [Andrew] That's it, isn't it? [John] Yeah. [Andrew] It's the judgments. It's the, yeah. And I, that's- uh, I can relate, [John] Mm. [Andrew] Very much so to that, and- and wanting to be that.
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Either break that mold or fit that mold, but that- that's just it. We're- we're neither of those um, [John] Yeah. [Andrew] is what I'm- I'm getting from here. Yeah, every man is- is unique, but we- we share Either break that mold or fit that mold, but that- that's just it. We're- we're neither of those um, [John] Yeah. [Andrew] is what I'm- I'm getting from here. Yeah, every man is- is unique, but we- we share
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So much. [John] Yeah. [Andrew] So, uh, So much. [John] Yeah. [Andrew] So, uh,
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So uh, just coming back to the- the Common Ground So uh, just coming back to the- the Common Ground
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experience that you- you had there was these- these other experienced men. Do you feel- h-have you been now going to Common Ground as those support, as a- as a support member in that role now yourself? [John] No, I haven't yet. [Andrew] Okay. [John] I actually went off and did a second one, um. experience that you- you had there was these- these other experienced men. Do you feel- h-have you been now going to Common Ground as those support, as a- as a support member in that role now yourself? [John] No, I haven't yet. [Andrew] Okay. [John] I actually went off and did a second one, um.
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I- I did a second Common Ground as a- as a participant. [Andrew] Okay, yeah. [John] There were two things about that that were um, significant to me. One- one was that uh, my wife had a major health I- I did a second Common Ground as a- as a participant. [Andrew] Okay, yeah. [John] There were two things about that that were um, significant to me. One- one was that uh, my wife had a major health
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A problem and it was very, you know, destabilising not to our marriage but but to you know, our sense of security in the world was a life threatening illness and and so that that was, that was huge. That would have been tough. Look it was and. A problem and it was very, you know, destabilising not to our marriage but but to you know, our sense of security in the world was a life threatening illness and and so that that was, that was huge. That would have been tough. Look it was and.
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Just to go sideways for a minute, you know, one of the things that that she did when she was diagnosed with cancer was that she brought in a circle of women around her. And there were about 10 women in her life. You know, her mother and her sister, our daughter, who was only like 8 or something at the time, and some other close women friends in order to form that circle around her as she went through this, this cancer journey, That's support. Absolutely, absolutely and a different. Just to go sideways for a minute, you know, one of the things that that she did when she was diagnosed with cancer was that she brought in a circle of women around her. And there were about 10 women in her life. You know, her mother and her sister, our daughter, who was only like 8 or something at the time, and some other close women friends in order to form that circle around her as she went through this, this cancer journey, That's support. Absolutely, absolutely and a different.
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Lot of support than than what others could give you know something very unique about that but one of the one of the things that I was able to take to my men's group was this kind of sense of because I belonged to a men's group after common ground you know. Lot of support than than what others could give you know something very unique about that but one of the one of the things that I was able to take to my men's group was this kind of sense of because I belonged to a men's group after common ground you know.
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One that just met regularly, you know, outside of the programs, OK. One that just met regularly, you know, outside of the programs, OK.
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Was that those men said to me when I was telling them about, you know, Karen bringing these circles? Was that those men said to me when I was telling them about, you know, Karen bringing these circles?
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The circle around her. The circle around her.
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Was they said how can we serve you and your wife and and that really blew me away, you know, yeah. Wow. They they they just said what can we do? And I said well. Was they said how can we serve you and your wife and and that really blew me away, you know, yeah. Wow. They they they just said what can we do? And I said well.
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Can you cook? And so I had, I had three or four men come to the house on the day that we had this initial circle and they cooked food and served food and facilitated all of those practicalities so that this circle of women could meet and support Karen. That's awesome. You know, and it was, it was, it was awesome and it was supportive to me in my support of her. And so that was that was an enduring part of. Can you cook? And so I had, I had three or four men come to the house on the day that we had this initial circle and they cooked food and served food and facilitated all of those practicalities so that this circle of women could meet and support Karen. That's awesome. You know, and it was, it was, it was awesome and it was supportive to me in my support of her. And so that was that was an enduring part of.
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The, the, the belonging to this community, yeah, that's that's incredible. Look And and if we can't. The, the, the belonging to this community, yeah, that's that's incredible. Look And and if we can't.
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If we can't. If we can't.
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Serve one another. If I can't serve another man in his struggling in the **** he's dealing with, and what am I doing? You know, it's not just about me. That's right. You know, I do have to do my own inner work, but for me it's about doing that inner work so that I am. Serve one another. If I can't serve another man in his struggling in the **** he's dealing with, and what am I doing? You know, it's not just about me. That's right. You know, I do have to do my own inner work, but for me it's about doing that inner work so that I am.
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The kind of man that I. The kind of man that I.
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And capable of being for other men and for other people. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Being that that sort of role model in. In a sense as well, Yeah. When you say role model, I suddenly feel uncomfortable because I don't sort of see myself in that way. Identified with that. No, no. But. But there's a way of being in the world and people do notice. Yeah. But yeah, in lots of ways it's it's because in and of itself, it's. It's. And capable of being for other men and for other people. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Being that that sort of role model in. In a sense as well, Yeah. When you say role model, I suddenly feel uncomfortable because I don't sort of see myself in that way. Identified with that. No, no. But. But there's a way of being in the world and people do notice. Yeah. But yeah, in lots of ways it's it's because in and of itself, it's. It's.
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Worthy thing to do, yeah. The other thing I wanted to just quickly say about the common ground thing the second time I did it. Worthy thing to do, yeah. The other thing I wanted to just quickly say about the common ground thing the second time I did it.
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I was in my mid 40s, right. And we did that thing where you line up all the men who were gathered in order of age. Ohh. OK, right. And of course, you know, when I've done it the first time, I was kind of midway. And when I come to these gatherings, I'm kind of midway because I'm in that demographic, you know, and bugging me if I wasn't the eldest man participating. Ohh wow. And and I I just. Elder John, Elder John. I was in my mid 40s, right. And we did that thing where you line up all the men who were gathered in order of age. Ohh. OK, right. And of course, you know, when I've done it the first time, I was kind of midway. And when I come to these gatherings, I'm kind of midway because I'm in that demographic, you know, and bugging me if I wasn't the eldest man participating. Ohh wow. And and I I just. Elder John, Elder John.
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I and I I I said I'm, I'm, I'm too young to be an elder. You know. I had one facilitator who was older than me. But when we just looked at the participants, I was, I was the eldest. I and I I I said I'm, I'm, I'm too young to be an elder. You know. I had one facilitator who was older than me. But when we just looked at the participants, I was, I was the eldest.
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And so that really challenged my sense of eldership. And of course, in this community, you know, once a man sort of hits fifty, he is. And so that really challenged my sense of eldership. And of course, in this community, you know, once a man sort of hits fifty, he is.
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Presented with that opportunity to step up as an elder and it's not something that I have felt able to do. Yeah, right. So is that are you considering exploring that further or just putting that aside for the moment, I think percolate is what I'm doing with it. I'm just letting it sit there. I'm listening. Absolutely. You know, I'm listening to the other men talk about their eldership and and what it. Presented with that opportunity to step up as an elder and it's not something that I have felt able to do. Yeah, right. So is that are you considering exploring that further or just putting that aside for the moment, I think percolate is what I'm doing with it. I'm just letting it sit there. I'm listening. Absolutely. You know, I'm listening to the other men talk about their eldership and and what it.
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What it means to them and what it means to this community. I notice, you know, when the elders stood up there that there was that there was one man who I know to be, you know, about my age or a little bit older. So he's a young elder. What it means to them and what it means to this community. I notice, you know, when the elders stood up there that there was that there was one man who I know to be, you know, about my age or a little bit older. So he's a young elder.
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Yeah. So. So it's just something I'll sit with and I'm. I'm not giving it a lot of attention. Yeah, OK. At the moment, Yeah, I guess it's a space that you really need to. Yeah. So. So it's just something I'll sit with and I'm. I'm not giving it a lot of attention. Yeah, OK. At the moment, Yeah, I guess it's a space that you really need to.
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To sort of own, isn't it? To have that responsibility of an elder, it's. To sort of own, isn't it? To have that responsibility of an elder, it's.
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It's not to be taken lightly, I suppose. It's not to be taken lightly, I suppose.
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Yeah, you're really that well, coming back to that. Yeah, you're really that well, coming back to that.
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That role model again, you you really standing in that sort of position then, aren't you? So one of the one of the funny things, I think it's funny or ironic or something. But you know, when I've talked to some of the men who are elders in this community, you know, I come with this assumption in this judgment that they've got it all figured out. And they know, you know, they're, they're wise enough to be an elder. But of course the wise ones are the ones that are saying no, I don't have it all figured out at all. That's it. No idea what. That role model again, you you really standing in that sort of position then, aren't you? So one of the one of the funny things, I think it's funny or ironic or something. But you know, when I've talked to some of the men who are elders in this community, you know, I come with this assumption in this judgment that they've got it all figured out. And they know, you know, they're, they're wise enough to be an elder. But of course the wise ones are the ones that are saying no, I don't have it all figured out at all. That's it. No idea what.
29:13

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Dude, that's funny, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, I've lately, I've often started spooking the phrase. It's. The older I get, the more I know, the less I know. Yeah. Yeah. Ohh, absolutely. Yeah. That's my experience too, is the deeper I dig, the further I've gotta go. And our little pointy cone, you know, has got a hole in the bottom, I think. I think it does. Dude, that's funny, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, I've lately, I've often started spooking the phrase. It's. The older I get, the more I know, the less I know. Yeah. Yeah. Ohh, absolutely. Yeah. That's my experience too, is the deeper I dig, the further I've gotta go. And our little pointy cone, you know, has got a hole in the bottom, I think. I think it does.
29:40

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I've gotta go. I've gotta go.
29:42

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Even I might open up again once you get to the bottom. Yeah, it it, yeah, it might be a a mirror image mixing our metaphors there. Even I might open up again once you get to the bottom. Yeah, it it, yeah, it might be a a mirror image mixing our metaphors there.
29:51

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So. So.
29:52

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You halfway through, halfway through this gathering, You're first gathering. Yep. Look, it's. You halfway through, halfway through this gathering, You're first gathering. Yep. Look, it's.
29:59

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As I mentioned, I've I've certainly been opened up. As I mentioned, I've I've certainly been opened up.
30:03

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I felt my heart opening up to other men, just just in discussions. I felt my heart opening up to other men, just just in discussions.
30:12

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Feeling. Feeling.
30:16

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Feeling the the love that is available. Feeling the the love that is available.
30:21

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Between us as humans and that's that's not to to go into that. Between us as humans and that's that's not to to go into that.
30:28

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Not love like you have between partners. Yeah, like a man and wife, for example. Not not that sort of love, but love. Not love like you have between partners. Yeah, like a man and wife, for example. Not not that sort of love, but love.
30:36

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As in the that strength of trust and community and being there for someone, so just feeling that sort of love has been. As in the that strength of trust and community and being there for someone, so just feeling that sort of love has been.
30:46

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Been something I have experienced here and just meeting the eyes of another man who is in struggles and being steadfast for them and having that reflected in my own story when I have discussed my struggles or things that I have. Been something I have experienced here and just meeting the eyes of another man who is in struggles and being steadfast for them and having that reflected in my own story when I have discussed my struggles or things that I have.
31:07

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That have worried me over the years and just seeing that solidarity reflected back in the the men that I've had conversations with is it's very safe and it's very welcomed. That have worried me over the years and just seeing that solidarity reflected back in the the men that I've had conversations with is it's very safe and it's very welcomed.
31:25

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No, I would. No, I would.
31:27

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I would go so far as to to see some of the other men in my life outside of of mentioning that I think would deeply benefit from, from being involved in this, the sort of community that's here. Because again, a lot of the guys that I know they're that they're that shell that you know, they've got that barrier up on the outside you try to go. I would go so far as to to see some of the other men in my life outside of of mentioning that I think would deeply benefit from, from being involved in this, the sort of community that's here. Because again, a lot of the guys that I know they're that they're that shell that you know, they've got that barrier up on the outside you try to go.
31:50

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You know, try to go deep where you try to to say something and there's a a sarcastic comment. Yeah, in response. That's that shield. It's not, you know, getting in here, brother. Yeah. So it's it's very, very nice to be able to. You know, try to go deep where you try to to say something and there's a a sarcastic comment. Yeah, in response. That's that shield. It's not, you know, getting in here, brother. Yeah. So it's it's very, very nice to be able to.
32:07

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Breathe that out. Just to let the barriers melt away and to to be vulnerable, as I I mentioned before, just and just to be in that space and and realise that that's part of part of who I am and essentially part of who we all are. We all have a level of vulnerability and we. Breathe that out. Just to let the barriers melt away and to to be vulnerable, as I I mentioned before, just and just to be in that space and and realise that that's part of part of who I am and essentially part of who we all are. We all have a level of vulnerability and we.
32:26

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It's OK. Yeah, So that's. It's OK. Yeah, So that's.
32:29

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Yeah, One of the beautiful things that I've I've discovered so far. So but. Yeah, One of the beautiful things that I've I've discovered so far. So but.
32:37

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Yeah. Yeah.
32:38

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Amazing, amazing bunch of guys. Amazing, amazing bunch of guys.
32:40

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Do you have you know? What are you feeling about the the the second-half is is there a sense of anticipation or is there you know? Do you have you know? What are you feeling about the the the second-half is is there a sense of anticipation or is there you know?
32:51

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Guys happening. It's funny, I'm like I said, I'm an open sort of guy and I I came in here without the expectations and I'm kind of at that point where I still don't have expectations of what's to come. I'm just being with it, just going with the flow and seeing where it takes me and. Guys happening. It's funny, I'm like I said, I'm an open sort of guy and I I came in here without the expectations and I'm kind of at that point where I still don't have expectations of what's to come. I'm just being with it, just going with the flow and seeing where it takes me and.
33:10

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As one of the workshops that we did, I'm just trying to be trying to follow my inner compass. Yeah. So I'm trying to to be intuitively guided as to what's going to best suit me. And that may be the case that I don't actually do one of the next workshops. I might just go for a walk or spend some time by myself instead. I don't know just yet. There's some wonderful workshops that are coming up. So it's. It would seem a shame not to take advantage of that while they are here. But again, it's. As one of the workshops that we did, I'm just trying to be trying to follow my inner compass. Yeah. So I'm trying to to be intuitively guided as to what's going to best suit me. And that may be the case that I don't actually do one of the next workshops. I might just go for a walk or spend some time by myself instead. I don't know just yet. There's some wonderful workshops that are coming up. So it's. It would seem a shame not to take advantage of that while they are here. But again, it's.
33:40

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We all have their different journey. So I'm, I'm on my journey, so I'll I'll just try and be in that, that heart space and and try and be guided by that as opposed to thinking what's going to be best for me. Just feel what's gonna be best for me. We all have their different journey. So I'm, I'm on my journey, so I'll I'll just try and be in that, that heart space and and try and be guided by that as opposed to thinking what's going to be best for me. Just feel what's gonna be best for me.
33:56

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So yeah. So yeah.
33:58

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That would have to be where I'm at at the halfway point. Yeah. Yeah. How about yourself as far as the what you've the workshops And. And I understand you're gonna be facilitating one of the workshops coming up. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That would have to be where I'm at at the halfway point. Yeah. Yeah. How about yourself as far as the what you've the workshops And. And I understand you're gonna be facilitating one of the workshops coming up. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
34:14

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One of the things that because I have a a cerebral job you know, I, I, I'm, I'm I'm my job is to think and you know because I'm I'm a I'm a researcher in in the nursing profession and you know when I come to gatherings it normally takes me you know roughly 24 hours to to kind of unhook from that and get out of my head and and and stop thinking stuff through and get into my heart. And I did. One of the things that because I have a a cerebral job you know, I, I, I'm, I'm I'm my job is to think and you know because I'm I'm a I'm a researcher in in the nursing profession and you know when I come to gatherings it normally takes me you know roughly 24 hours to to kind of unhook from that and get out of my head and and and stop thinking stuff through and get into my heart. And I did.
34:42

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I did a workshop yesterday morning, so you know, the 1st morning of of it. OK, yeah. Which was really physical, you know, lots of jumping around and lots of physical. Ohh look it it was, I mean, you know. I did a workshop yesterday morning, so you know, the 1st morning of of it. OK, yeah. Which was really physical, you know, lots of jumping around and lots of physical. Ohh look it it was, I mean, you know.
34:56

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I was trying to think what it was about and what it was for and what it all meant but. I was trying to think what it was about and what it was for and what it all meant but.
35:02

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I kind of. I kind of.
35:04

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Couldn't keep that up because we were being so physical. So by the end of the first session yesterday, ohh, as loose as could be. And I'm just feeling all buzzy and all good about about that. So that that helped me really let go of this. Gotta think stuff through, yeah. Having said that. Couldn't keep that up because we were being so physical. So by the end of the first session yesterday, ohh, as loose as could be. And I'm just feeling all buzzy and all good about about that. So that that helped me really let go of this. Gotta think stuff through, yeah. Having said that.
35:22

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There is this awareness that I have that tomorrow morning I have to facilitate a a workshop. I don't have to. I have elected to facilitate a workshop. There is this awareness that I have that tomorrow morning I have to facilitate a a workshop. I don't have to. I have elected to facilitate a workshop.
35:36

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And one of the things that's different for me this time, because I've facilitated other workshops before, is. And one of the things that's different for me this time, because I've facilitated other workshops before, is.
35:45

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That this one's at the last. It's on the last morning and it's the last lot of workshops. Yep. And I'm just in a much better heart space and headspace to facilitate that now, you know, I hope that lunchtime tomorrow, I'm not sort of. That this one's at the last. It's on the last morning and it's the last lot of workshops. Yep. And I'm just in a much better heart space and headspace to facilitate that now, you know, I hope that lunchtime tomorrow, I'm not sort of.
36:00

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Sitting there ruminating, saying, well, I really stuffed that up, but but I, you know, I. Sitting there ruminating, saying, well, I really stuffed that up, but but I, you know, I.
36:07

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The the experience of of getting out of my head, getting into my heart, listening, engaging, connecting with men. Puts me in a better space. Yeah. To anticipate that, Sure. Yeah. The the experience of of getting out of my head, getting into my heart, listening, engaging, connecting with men. Puts me in a better space. Yeah. To anticipate that, Sure. Yeah.
36:22

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No. Well, I'll be looking forward to it. It's one that I've put on my list. Ohh OK Ohh. As a go to. Yeah. So you're more than welcome. Yeah. Would be interesting. Yeah. So let's hope I'm not at that point where I wanna go for a walk. No. Well, I'll be looking forward to it. It's one that I've put on my list. Ohh OK Ohh. As a go to. Yeah. So you're more than welcome. Yeah. Would be interesting. Yeah. So let's hope I'm not at that point where I wanna go for a walk.
36:35

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You gotta line up, schedule that somewhere else, please. Yeah, I might go for the walk later today. We'll see what happens. Yeah. So you know, I mean, I'm because my life is is so structured outside of here. You gotta line up, schedule that somewhere else, please. Yeah, I might go for the walk later today. We'll see what happens. Yeah. So you know, I mean, I'm because my life is is so structured outside of here.
36:47

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It's probably taken me all of that time, you know, all of those years too, and all of those gatherings to to really. It's probably taken me all of that time, you know, all of those years too, and all of those gatherings to to really.
36:57

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Loosen up and let go of that need to to, you know, schedule my my time here and everything. I went for a swim yesterday. During one of the sessions, none of them actually called to me. I was looking for some time away and so I took that and that was very. Loosen up and let go of that need to to, you know, schedule my my time here and everything. I went for a swim yesterday. During one of the sessions, none of them actually called to me. I was looking for some time away and so I took that and that was very.
37:14

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Children's relaxing, Yeah, that's good. That's good, mate. We're nearly out of time. So I guess, you know, here's a chance for us to to say one last thing each, Yeah, we're here for. I just have to say that I'm very appreciative of the opportunity to be a part of this. It's as I have said in the beginning and said all the way through, it's been, it's been opening, it's been enriching. Children's relaxing, Yeah, that's good. That's good, mate. We're nearly out of time. So I guess, you know, here's a chance for us to to say one last thing each, Yeah, we're here for. I just have to say that I'm very appreciative of the opportunity to be a part of this. It's as I have said in the beginning and said all the way through, it's been, it's been opening, it's been enriching.
37:38

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I can certainly see myself being a part of future man shines and and and other man's gathering. So looking forward to what the future holds. Yeah, yeah. I can certainly see myself being a part of future man shines and and and other man's gathering. So looking forward to what the future holds. Yeah, yeah.
37:51

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Ohh yeah, I, I I hear that and and honour that that's you know that's a that's a an amazing place to be in halfway through your first ever gathering and you know that that willingness to. Ohh yeah, I, I I hear that and and honour that that's you know that's a that's a an amazing place to be in halfway through your first ever gathering and you know that that willingness to.
38:06

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To be open, I think is what I've experienced as as the. To be open, I think is what I've experienced as as the.
38:11

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As though the real linchpin to to these gatherings being most fruitful, you know. As though the real linchpin to to these gatherings being most fruitful, you know.
38:18

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He's he's, you know, because I've been open to it. I've reaped the benefits and been able to give back. He's he's, you know, because I've been open to it. I've reaped the benefits and been able to give back.
38:25

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And look, it's been great to to talk with you, you know, likewise. Yeah. Thank you for the invitation. Ohh, looking great. I just think we come from, we come from different experiences, but we each have each have our own knowing to bring to a conversation like this. So that's it. Common ground without coining a phrase. And look, it's been great to to talk with you, you know, likewise. Yeah. Thank you for the invitation. Ohh, looking great. I just think we come from, we come from different experiences, but we each have each have our own knowing to bring to a conversation like this. So that's it. Common ground without coining a phrase.
38:44

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Don't know. Don't know.