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Okay, we're on. Okay, we're on.
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Okay, it's Sunday the 1st of May and, ah, we're at Manshine 2016. I'm John Rosenberg. I'm 51 years old, um, and I'm having a conversation with...Andrew Blakely and I am 34. Okay, it's Sunday the 1st of May and, ah, we're at Manshine 2016. I'm John Rosenberg. I'm 51 years old, um, and I'm having a conversation with...Andrew Blakely and I am 34.
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One of the things that I am really interested in, in doing in this conversation, is talking about One of the things that I am really interested in, in doing in this conversation, is talking about
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your experiences as a, as a first timer at a men's gathering and my experience as a man who's been to a lot of, a lot of men's gatherings. Right. Because I think that there's different experiences that we bring to, to this gathering and to this conversation. Ah, each has its own wisdom. We each have our own knowing and I, I think it would be really interesting to talk about the way that we experience or the ways that we experience this gathering differently and, and alike. your experiences as a, as a first timer at a men's gathering and my experience as a man who's been to a lot of, a lot of men's gatherings. Right. Because I think that there's different experiences that we bring to, to this gathering and to this conversation. Ah, each has its own wisdom. We each have our own knowing and I, I think it would be really interesting to talk about the way that we experience or the ways that we experience this gathering differently and, and alike.
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Sounds good. Okay. I, I wanted to ask this question of you about what, what brought you here? Why are you here at Manshine? Well, I've, ah, basically been looking into this type of men's organisation or something like that. I've been yearning for it, I guess, for the last 10 years of my life and, um, it's really come to a head earlier this year when my wife, ah, participated in one of the women's well-being gatherings. Sounds good. Okay. I, I wanted to ask this question of you about what, what brought you here? Why are you here at Manshine? Well, I've, ah, basically been looking into this type of men's organisation or something like that. I've been yearning for it, I guess, for the last 10 years of my life and, um, it's really come to a head earlier this year when my wife, ah, participated in one of the women's well-being gatherings.
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And I saw the impact that that had on her, um, from that involvement with that community and thought there has to be something like this for men. So by researching women's well-being, I found the brother group, so to speak, being men's well-being and, ah, saw that there was Manshine coming up, that it was close by, being a south-east Queenslander And I saw the impact that that had on her, um, from that involvement with that community and thought there has to be something like this for men. So by researching women's well-being, I found the brother group, so to speak, being men's well-being and, ah, saw that there was Manshine coming up, that it was close by, being a south-east Queenslander
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and I thought, yep, I'm committing, I'm going, I'm going to get the, ah, the super early bloke special and I thought, yep, I'm committing, I'm going, I'm going to get the, ah, the super early bloke special
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and I'm gonna jump in with both feet, so and here I am and it's, um,  and I'm gonna jump in with both feet, so and here I am and it's, um, 
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needless to say it has been a very needless to say it has been a very
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interesting and opening experience for me. interesting and opening experience for me.
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Okay. Okay.
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I, um, I wonder if we can talk a bit more about that in a minute, because I, I'd like to talk about my own experience of coming into, ah, coming into Manshine as well. Absolutely. So I've been coming to men's gatherings for probably about 12 years, ah, so I've probably been to about 15 or 16. I, um, I wonder if we can talk a bit more about that in a minute, because I, I'd like to talk about my own experience of coming into, ah, coming into Manshine as well. Absolutely. So I've been coming to men's gatherings for probably about 12 years, ah, so I've probably been to about 15 or 16.
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So I guess there are two things I'd say. One is why I came in the first place and then why I keep coming back. So I guess there are two things I'd say. One is why I came in the first place and then why I keep coming back.
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So, so the reason I first started doing, um, men's work was I, I started with Common Ground, ah, and then in the middle of Common Ground the facilitator said, um, we're not here next week because we'll all be recovering from Manshine. And I thought, well, what the hell's that? And you know, ah, and so the facilitator of, of Common Ground, the main one, talked, talked to us about So, so the reason I first started doing, um, men's work was I, I started with Common Ground, ah, and then in the middle of Common Ground the facilitator said, um, we're not here next week because we'll all be recovering from Manshine. And I thought, well, what the hell's that? And you know, ah, and so the facilitator of, of Common Ground, the main one, talked, talked to us about
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about, ah, Manshine and this idea of a gathering about, ah, Manshine and this idea of a gathering
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and, ah, ah, yeah, I'd done a lot of personal development work, but I'd never done anything specifically focused on men, masculinity, myself as a man. and, ah, ah, yeah, I'd done a lot of personal development work, but I'd never done anything specifically focused on men, masculinity, myself as a man.
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I'm a husband and I'm a father, ah, and a dog owner, ah, so, you know, that there's this sense of my, ah, my role as a man that kind of wasn't well defined. Um, I'm also, I'm also a nurse by profession, so I work amongst women, um, and I have a I'm a husband and I'm a father, ah, and a dog owner, ah, so, you know, that there's this sense of my, ah, my role as a man that kind of wasn't well defined. Um, I'm also, I'm also a nurse by profession, so I work amongst women, um, and I have a
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great number of, ah, friends who are women. So, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of the masculine in my life. So that, that was, that was part of what, ah, what, ah, motivated me to, to, to come to the men's gathering. great number of, ah, friends who are women. So, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of the masculine in my life. So that, that was, that was part of what, ah, what, ah, motivated me to, to, to come to the men's gathering.
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Why do I keep coming back? Why do I keep coming back?
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Because this this journey of personal development never stops in in my life and so this is one of the things I do to keep that happening to service that. Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's a bit it's a bit like servicing this old this old carcass of mine. You know this 51 isn't a carcass yet but yeah you know I I just I'm here to renew and to delve deeper and to be. Because this this journey of personal development never stops in in my life and so this is one of the things I do to keep that happening to service that. Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's a bit it's a bit like servicing this old this old carcass of mine. You know this 51 isn't a carcass yet but yeah you know I I just I'm here to renew and to delve deeper and to be.
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I scared by stuff and to be drawn to stuff and to experience joy in it too. So that's great. Yeah, that's that's part of what what's happening for me. Yeah. I can certainly relate as far as those emotions you just described and the experiences it's it is, as I mentioned before, very opening, so. I scared by stuff and to be drawn to stuff and to experience joy in it too. So that's great. Yeah, that's that's part of what what's happening for me. Yeah. I can certainly relate as far as those emotions you just described and the experiences it's it is, as I mentioned before, very opening, so.
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The space to be able to share some of the personal struggles that that I have and that we have as men, that's safe. The space to be able to share some of the personal struggles that that I have and that we have as men, that's safe.
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Trusting, supportive community that's created by this group, I think is wonderful. I can't. Trusting, supportive community that's created by this group, I think is wonderful. I can't.
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I certainly cannot put it down, that is for sure, and and I wouldn't want to. I certainly cannot put it down, that is for sure, and and I wouldn't want to.
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It's a space, I think, that that we need in society at the moment, especially with the the current mentality of downtrodden Ness that that sometimes gets cast over men in general, but probably adults in general in our sort of western, western society, but. It's a space, I think, that that we need in society at the moment, especially with the the current mentality of downtrodden Ness that that sometimes gets cast over men in general, but probably adults in general in our sort of western, western society, but.
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Coming here has I? I tried not to have any expectations. Coming here has I? I tried not to have any expectations.
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When? When?
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When I committed to come, obviously there were there was some information on the the workshops and and certain things to be expected, but as much as that was. When I committed to come, obviously there were there was some information on the the workshops and and certain things to be expected, but as much as that was.
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Summarized I I just tried to come with an open mind, and I've been rewarded by an amazing experience. So it's. Summarized I I just tried to come with an open mind, and I've been rewarded by an amazing experience. So it's.
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It's certainly not a walk in the park, but it is. It's very rewarding. I'm feeling uplifted. I've felt the emotion of some of the other men. It's certainly not a walk in the park, but it is. It's very rewarding. I'm feeling uplifted. I've felt the emotion of some of the other men.
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And been been emotionally touched in in that regard through the the trust that that some of the men have by sharing their stories and by going through the workshops and the wisdom of the facilitators along with the elders of the community as well and just being able to converse with men from all different walks of life and. And been been emotionally touched in in that regard through the the trust that that some of the men have by sharing their stories and by going through the workshops and the wisdom of the facilitators along with the elders of the community as well and just being able to converse with men from all different walks of life and.
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And just just chat with them, just talk to them. And just just chat with them, just talk to them.
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That, that openness of conversation that you can have here, the barriers are, are broken down. That, that openness of conversation that you can have here, the barriers are, are broken down.
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It's very refreshing So I'm I'm normally a very open person and I I try to to be that way and and maintain integrity in that regard as well and to see that reflected in a lot of men here is it's yeah like I said very refreshing So it's it's a very welcome change in my life So being in the construction industry there's a very it's it's probably polar to. It's very refreshing So I'm I'm normally a very open person and I I try to to be that way and and maintain integrity in that regard as well and to see that reflected in a lot of men here is it's yeah like I said very refreshing So it's it's a very welcome change in my life So being in the construction industry there's a very it's it's probably polar to.
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Being being a nurse, there are a lot of men in the construction industry and there's a lot of gruffness and and marchioness that that comes with the construction industry, so. Being being a nurse, there are a lot of men in the construction industry and there's a lot of gruffness and and marchioness that that comes with the construction industry, so.
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With that I think comes a lot of fear from men individually being in that, that group, fear of sharing their emotion for fear of being put down and. With that I think comes a lot of fear from men individually being in that, that group, fear of sharing their emotion for fear of being put down and.
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And. And.
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Being in a space like this is again very refreshing. I I picked up on something you said there about it not being a walk in the park and you know within the bounds of of what you're happy to share. Being in a space like this is again very refreshing. I I picked up on something you said there about it not being a walk in the park and you know within the bounds of of what you're happy to share.
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You know what some What are some of the challenges that you've experienced in participating in in this men's gathering? You know what some What are some of the challenges that you've experienced in participating in in this men's gathering?
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Again, I I personally AM. Again, I I personally AM.
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Consider myself to be open, but coming from that background the again not to to stigmatise the the construction industry, but. Consider myself to be open, but coming from that background the again not to to stigmatise the the construction industry, but.
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Not sharing the depth of emotion that that comes along with with our stories or with my story. Not sharing the depth of emotion that that comes along with with our stories or with my story.
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And and feeling. And and feeling.
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The pain from some of the other men as well, that's relating to that and being able to to sit with that. The pain from some of the other men as well, that's relating to that and being able to to sit with that.
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It can be a struggle. It can be a struggle.
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To feel, to feel their pain. To feel my own pain from my own, my own story, my own struggles that I've had, and to revisit some of those things to identify if if there's further healing to be done. So by that, it can be. To feel, to feel their pain. To feel my own pain from my own, my own story, my own struggles that I've had, and to revisit some of those things to identify if if there's further healing to be done. So by that, it can be.
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It can be a bit of a struggle, but. It can be a bit of a struggle, but.
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It's something that if you're willing to make the effort to to go through, it's it's met with those rewards of of healing, of of sharing, of community, of a deeper form of of mateship, I guess that. It's something that if you're willing to make the effort to to go through, it's it's met with those rewards of of healing, of of sharing, of community, of a deeper form of of mateship, I guess that.
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The surface relationships that you have outside of here just generally don't have that eye generally don't have. The surface relationships that you have outside of here just generally don't have that eye generally don't have.
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Do you have mates outside of here that? Do you have mates outside of here that?
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Go your friendships go beyond that superficial look, I I could probably only say that I have one or two. So from. Go your friendships go beyond that superficial look, I I could probably only say that I have one or two. So from.
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The. The.
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Teenage years of my life. Teenage years of my life.
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To to where I am now obviously having a a large social circle then then getting married it it shrinks that social circle a bit but for with for good reason as well it it kind of starts cutting the fat out of your your life in a way there's there's so many superficial relationships if I can call them that not to discredit any of the the so-called friends that I I had during that time but. To to where I am now obviously having a a large social circle then then getting married it it shrinks that social circle a bit but for with for good reason as well it it kind of starts cutting the fat out of your your life in a way there's there's so many superficial relationships if I can call them that not to discredit any of the the so-called friends that I I had during that time but.
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Have getting married and having children and and and then having more children. So we have three children. Have getting married and having children and and and then having more children. So we have three children.
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Living that life and then needing to focus on my career as well as my family, the the mates that I had have shrunk down to really the the ones that I I can consider to be very important. Living that life and then needing to focus on my career as well as my family, the the mates that I had have shrunk down to really the the ones that I I can consider to be very important.
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And it out of those one or two mates, there's probably another three or four that are the next step along. And it out of those one or two mates, there's probably another three or four that are the next step along.
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That I could go sort of halfway with half, half deep. That I could go sort of halfway with half, half deep.
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But you're you're a half deep rather than 1/2 shallow kind of guy by the sound of it. But you're you're a half deep rather than 1/2 shallow kind of guy by the sound of it.
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Like to dive in? Like to dive in?
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I can be to my own detriment at times, but certainly not in this, in this space at mansion with some, you know, one of the things that has happened for me and that I've observed in other men over the years that I've been coming to to men's gatherings, is that there are friendships that are formed here that are taken from here outside to the real world. If I can do that with air quotes. I can be to my own detriment at times, but certainly not in this, in this space at mansion with some, you know, one of the things that has happened for me and that I've observed in other men over the years that I've been coming to to men's gatherings, is that there are friendships that are formed here that are taken from here outside to the real world. If I can do that with air quotes.
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But also, you know, I mean, I I experienced, I I guess an enrichment of my existing friendships as a result of of attending these these gatherings. But also, you know, I mean, I I experienced, I I guess an enrichment of my existing friendships as a result of of attending these these gatherings.
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So that it it wasn't just. So that it it wasn't just.
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Constrained to the guys that I met here that I was beginning to sort of socialise with or meet up with in men's group, but but that my other friendships were were benefiting from it too. Constrained to the guys that I met here that I was beginning to sort of socialise with or meet up with in men's group, but but that my other friendships were were benefiting from it too.
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So I I mean, I said, you know, I've done a lot of personal development work before I started attending men's groups. And I guess, you know, many of my friendships were already pretty deep like you, you know, there's the, there's that inner circle of depth and it's a bit like an inverted cone. You know, you've got the real deep ones at that and you just come up and and yeah, and not not being a shy type, you know, a large circle of friends at that sort of superficial. So I I mean, I said, you know, I've done a lot of personal development work before I started attending men's groups. And I guess, you know, many of my friendships were already pretty deep like you, you know, there's the, there's that inner circle of depth and it's a bit like an inverted cone. You know, you've got the real deep ones at that and you just come up and and yeah, and not not being a shy type, you know, a large circle of friends at that sort of superficial.
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Social level. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. But so, I mean, I found that perhaps it has given me different. Social level. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. But so, I mean, I found that perhaps it has given me different.
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Language and and and some of the learnings I guess that I've brought away from here are influencing those existing or pre-existing relationships. Language and and and some of the learnings I guess that I've brought away from here are influencing those existing or pre-existing relationships.
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Yeah, I can certainly see that there's potential for that just to the way that I'm learning to communicate differently. Yeah, I can certainly see that there's potential for that just to the way that I'm learning to communicate differently.
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Yeah, I can. I can certainly see there's gonna be impacts beyond this weekend that are positive impacts, things that are going to. Yeah, I can. I can certainly see there's gonna be impacts beyond this weekend that are positive impacts, things that are going to.
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As you mentioned in rich relationships outside of this. As you mentioned in rich relationships outside of this.
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Men's world being circled, This man showing community. Yeah, so it's. Men's world being circled, This man showing community. Yeah, so it's.
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Yeah, definitely. Looking forward to see what transpires over the coming weeks, Yeah. Do you have any, do you have any sort of hints that you think are being shown like little little seeds that have been sown already? We're only halfway through the gathering that you're going to take with. You do go deep, don't you? Yeah, definitely. Looking forward to see what transpires over the coming weeks, Yeah. Do you have any, do you have any sort of hints that you think are being shown like little little seeds that have been sown already? We're only halfway through the gathering that you're going to take with. You do go deep, don't you?
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Look, I could probably. Look, I could probably.
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I think one of the things that may be an immediate effect would be the relationship I have with my sons. So it's it was something I was always aware of trying to nurture as as well as nurturing the relationship with my daughter. But being in that position to be the man that I need to be as their father and and to show them. I think one of the things that may be an immediate effect would be the relationship I have with my sons. So it's it was something I was always aware of trying to nurture as as well as nurturing the relationship with my daughter. But being in that position to be the man that I need to be as their father and and to show them.
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The vulnerability that a man. The vulnerability that a man.
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Can't have and and should have as part of being a man. We're not just this hard shell that needs to be bouncing all the worries of the world away. So and I guess for the most extent of my fathering I have, I have probably been too hard in that regard and this this is identifying to me that that's that's certainly an area in my life that I can. Can't have and and should have as part of being a man. We're not just this hard shell that needs to be bouncing all the worries of the world away. So and I guess for the most extent of my fathering I have, I have probably been too hard in that regard and this this is identifying to me that that's that's certainly an area in my life that I can.
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Loosen up a bit in front of my boys and show them that it's OK to be vulnerable. It's part of being a man and it helps you to be a better man. Loosen up a bit in front of my boys and show them that it's OK to be vulnerable. It's part of being a man and it helps you to be a better man.
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Robbie Williams just suddenly came to mind in his song about being a better man. Yeah, which might have been before your time, young fellow. I don't know. No, no. Robbie Williams just suddenly came to mind in his song about being a better man. Yeah, which might have been before your time, young fellow. I don't know. No, no.
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Uh. Uh.
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Yeah, I just you know, reflecting on what you're on what you're saying and and you know that yearning that that you've described and that that I've experienced too, You know, to to be a better man, to be a better partner, to be a better father, to be better at my job and to be more connected. Yeah, I just you know, reflecting on what you're on what you're saying and and you know that yearning that that you've described and that that I've experienced too, You know, to to be a better man, to be a better partner, to be a better father, to be better at my job and to be more connected.
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Yeah, I think that's that's probably a key as well as to. Yeah, I think that's that's probably a key as well as to.
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To get that connection, however you're wanting to be connected, you need to. To get that connection, however you're wanting to be connected, you need to.
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Need to know really who you are. Need to know really who you are.
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And I think that's that's probably one of the things that that I also needed to come and experience this to really know who I am. So self discovery is very much a part of it and. And I think that's that's probably one of the things that that I also needed to come and experience this to really know who I am. So self discovery is very much a part of it and.
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And I'm I'm certainly getting. And I'm I'm certainly getting.
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Getting a good feel of that during this weekend so far. Getting a good feel of that during this weekend so far.
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So. So.
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Yeah, look, I. Yeah, look, I.
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I cannot compliment. I cannot compliment.
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The, the organisers and the the men that are here enough for for what this. The, the organisers and the the men that are here enough for for what this.
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Gathering this, this community has created it's. Gathering this, this community has created it's.
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Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's.
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Very much what I needed in my life, I think. Very much what I needed in my life, I think.
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Hmm. Hmm.
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One of the things that I have observed over the years is, is that. One of the things that I have observed over the years is, is that.
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The association means, well-being is a community of men. So whilst there's a there's a governance body, a board or a committee or whatever their name they call themselves, you know there is that group and and you know, organizing large groups of people requires there to be, you know, the usual administration of an association, but what it what it is. The association means, well-being is a community of men. So whilst there's a there's a governance body, a board or a committee or whatever their name they call themselves, you know there is that group and and you know, organizing large groups of people requires there to be, you know, the usual administration of an association, but what it what it is.
17:51

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Which is what you said. Which is what you said.
17:53

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Is is it is a community. It's a community of men and indeed it's a community of women because the women in our lives are are sort of affiliated almost with with this and and then there's women, women's well-being as well. Yeah to me that's that's the big difference is that there's the interconnection between men that creates this association. Is is it is a community. It's a community of men and indeed it's a community of women because the women in our lives are are sort of affiliated almost with with this and and then there's women, women's well-being as well. Yeah to me that's that's the big difference is that there's the interconnection between men that creates this association.
18:20

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So it's not trickle down from the top, it's actually it's actually the min the community that have created this association to make it work absolutely. So it's not trickle down from the top, it's actually it's actually the min the community that have created this association to make it work absolutely.
18:44

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One of the things I wanted to I wanted to talk about was. One of the things I wanted to I wanted to talk about was.
18:51

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Coming into men's work and meeting open hearted men. Coming into men's work and meeting open hearted men.
18:58

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Meeting men who are journeying just like me and have some of the same struggles or challenges as me has been one of the great benefits of men's work. Sure. And I think the thing, you know, I was talking before about. Meeting men who are journeying just like me and have some of the same struggles or challenges as me has been one of the great benefits of men's work. Sure. And I think the thing, you know, I was talking before about.
19:15

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Coming in from a female dominated profession, you know, I've done a lot of personal development work, as I said. So you know, I'm this kind of sort of, you know, what some people would think was kind of a soft. Coming in from a female dominated profession, you know, I've done a lot of personal development work, as I said. So you know, I'm this kind of sort of, you know, what some people would think was kind of a soft.
19:27

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Kind of a bloke, you know, in touch with my emotions and. Right, OK stuff. So part part of bringing getting me here was because I was afraid of men. OK, So you want to sort of be reminded of your masculinity in a sense. Would that be fair? I think I'd use the word consolidate. It's sort of like it was just, you know, I I just didn't have sort of solid. Kind of a bloke, you know, in touch with my emotions and. Right, OK stuff. So part part of bringing getting me here was because I was afraid of men. OK, So you want to sort of be reminded of your masculinity in a sense. Would that be fair? I think I'd use the word consolidate. It's sort of like it was just, you know, I I just didn't have sort of solid.
19:53

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Boundaries around my sense of myself as a man. Sure, I'm I'm a functioning human being, but I just, you know, I I I just, I was frightened of men. So it was difficult to figure out how to how to be, how to be a man. If I mean, I grew up in a small country town filled with ****** and bogans. Boundaries around my sense of myself as a man. Sure, I'm I'm a functioning human being, but I just, you know, I I I just, I was frightened of men. So it was difficult to figure out how to how to be, how to be a man. If I mean, I grew up in a small country town filled with ****** and bogans.
20:16

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Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
20:19

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And and, you know, there was only one way to be a man in my hometown, in my upbringing. I couldn't get out of the place soon enough. That's right. Yeah. You know, yeah. Good at school, creative. Musical, intelligent. You know, articulate. And because I couldn't drunk and I couldn't grunt and go off and get ****** every night, You know, you have the different mold for what a man was in that community. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't quite fit the demographic, you know. Yeah, sure. And so one of the really big. And and, you know, there was only one way to be a man in my hometown, in my upbringing. I couldn't get out of the place soon enough. That's right. Yeah. You know, yeah. Good at school, creative. Musical, intelligent. You know, articulate. And because I couldn't drunk and I couldn't grunt and go off and get ****** every night, You know, you have the different mold for what a man was in that community. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't quite fit the demographic, you know. Yeah, sure. And so one of the really big.
20:49

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Moments for me in in that journey. It was at the intro night of Common Ground. There were some men there who weren't going to remain with the program, but they were experienced men who were coming in just to be supportive, OK? And to and to, you know. Moments for me in in that journey. It was at the intro night of Common Ground. There were some men there who weren't going to remain with the program, but they were experienced men who were coming in just to be supportive, OK? And to and to, you know.
21:06

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Just round it out and and fill it out a bit and one of the things we have to do is we have to go. Just round it out and and fill it out a bit and one of the things we have to do is we have to go.
21:12

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2A man in this large group in the introductory night. 2A man in this large group in the introductory night.
21:16

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Who we wouldn't naturally go to, it wouldn't gravitate to them. Yeah, right. And so there was a bloke there and he's well known in this community, a short, stocky, long hair, piercings, tattoos, all of this stuff. Who we wouldn't naturally go to, it wouldn't gravitate to them. Yeah, right. And so there was a bloke there and he's well known in this community, a short, stocky, long hair, piercings, tattoos, all of this stuff.
21:36

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And I just thought, ohh, well you know here we go. So I went over to him and and and you know, and he said, so why? And I I told him, he said you're the you're the sort of guy who looks like a man. I'd be scared of that stereotype. Yeah, absolutely. And they they were my judgments in the same way that I was subject to the judgments of. And I just thought, ohh, well you know here we go. So I went over to him and and and you know, and he said, so why? And I I told him, he said you're the you're the sort of guy who looks like a man. I'd be scared of that stereotype. Yeah, absolutely. And they they were my judgments in the same way that I was subject to the judgments of.
21:56

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Others because of you know being soft or being whatever whatever society places upon you and your your role. Absolutely, absolutely and and not and not only society but you know specifically the people that I worked with, the people that I know the people that I'm friends with my family. You know it's it's not all it's not all derogatory but there is this kind of. Others because of you know being soft or being whatever whatever society places upon you and your your role. Absolutely, absolutely and and not and not only society but you know specifically the people that I worked with, the people that I know the people that I'm friends with my family. You know it's it's not all it's not all derogatory but there is this kind of.
22:20

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This set of judgments that are made about a man like that. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Judgments. It's that. Yeah. And I that's I can relate, umm, very much so to that and wanting to be that. This set of judgments that are made about a man like that. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Judgments. It's that. Yeah. And I that's I can relate, umm, very much so to that and wanting to be that.
22:34

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Either break that mold or fit that mold, but that that's just it. When? When neither of those is what I'm getting from here. Yeah, every man is unique, but we share. Either break that mold or fit that mold, but that that's just it. When? When neither of those is what I'm getting from here. Yeah, every man is unique, but we share.
22:48

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So much. Yeah. So. So much. Yeah. So.
22:58

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So just coming back to the common ground. So just coming back to the common ground.
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The experience that you you had there was these these other experienced men. Do you feel have you been now going to common ground as those support as a as a support member in that role now yourself? No, I haven't yet. I actually went off and did a second one. The experience that you you had there was these these other experienced men. Do you feel have you been now going to common ground as those support as a as a support member in that role now yourself? No, I haven't yet. I actually went off and did a second one.
23:19

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I I did a second common ground as a participant, OK? And there were two things about that that were significant to me. One one was that my wife had a major health. I I did a second common ground as a participant, OK? And there were two things about that that were significant to me. One one was that my wife had a major health.
23:33

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A problem and it was very, you know, destabilising not to our marriage but but to you know, our sense of security in the world was a life threatening illness and and so that that was, that was huge. That would have been tough. Look it was and. A problem and it was very, you know, destabilising not to our marriage but but to you know, our sense of security in the world was a life threatening illness and and so that that was, that was huge. That would have been tough. Look it was and.
23:51

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Just to go sideways for a minute, you know, one of the things that that she did when she was diagnosed with cancer was that she brought in a circle of women around her. And there were about 10 women in her life. You know, her mother and her sister, our daughter, who was only like 8 or something at the time, and some other close women friends in order to form that circle around her as she went through this, this cancer journey, That's support. Absolutely, absolutely and a different. Just to go sideways for a minute, you know, one of the things that that she did when she was diagnosed with cancer was that she brought in a circle of women around her. And there were about 10 women in her life. You know, her mother and her sister, our daughter, who was only like 8 or something at the time, and some other close women friends in order to form that circle around her as she went through this, this cancer journey, That's support. Absolutely, absolutely and a different.
24:21

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Lot of support than than what others could give you know something very unique about that but one of the one of the things that I was able to take to my men's group was this kind of sense of because I belonged to a men's group after common ground you know. Lot of support than than what others could give you know something very unique about that but one of the one of the things that I was able to take to my men's group was this kind of sense of because I belonged to a men's group after common ground you know.
24:40

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One that just met regularly, you know, outside of the programs, OK. One that just met regularly, you know, outside of the programs, OK.
24:46

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Was that those men said to me when I was telling them about, you know, Karen bringing these circles? Was that those men said to me when I was telling them about, you know, Karen bringing these circles?
24:52

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The circle around her. The circle around her.
24:54

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Was they said how can we serve you and your wife and and that really blew me away, you know, yeah. Wow. They they they just said what can we do? And I said well. Was they said how can we serve you and your wife and and that really blew me away, you know, yeah. Wow. They they they just said what can we do? And I said well.
25:05

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Can you cook? And so I had, I had three or four men come to the house on the day that we had this initial circle and they cooked food and served food and facilitated all of those practicalities so that this circle of women could meet and support Karen. That's awesome. You know, and it was, it was, it was awesome and it was supportive to me in my support of her. And so that was that was an enduring part of. Can you cook? And so I had, I had three or four men come to the house on the day that we had this initial circle and they cooked food and served food and facilitated all of those practicalities so that this circle of women could meet and support Karen. That's awesome. You know, and it was, it was, it was awesome and it was supportive to me in my support of her. And so that was that was an enduring part of.
25:32

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The, the, the belonging to this community, yeah, that's that's incredible. Look And and if we can't. The, the, the belonging to this community, yeah, that's that's incredible. Look And and if we can't.
25:39

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If we can't. If we can't.
25:41

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Serve one another. If I can't serve another man in his struggling in the **** he's dealing with, and what am I doing? You know, it's not just about me. That's right. You know, I do have to do my own inner work, but for me it's about doing that inner work so that I am. Serve one another. If I can't serve another man in his struggling in the **** he's dealing with, and what am I doing? You know, it's not just about me. That's right. You know, I do have to do my own inner work, but for me it's about doing that inner work so that I am.
26:00

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The kind of man that I. The kind of man that I.
26:03

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And capable of being for other men and for other people. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Being that that sort of role model in. In a sense as well, Yeah. When you say role model, I suddenly feel uncomfortable because I don't sort of see myself in that way. Identified with that. No, no. But. But there's a way of being in the world and people do notice. Yeah. But yeah, in lots of ways it's it's because in and of itself, it's. It's. And capable of being for other men and for other people. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Being that that sort of role model in. In a sense as well, Yeah. When you say role model, I suddenly feel uncomfortable because I don't sort of see myself in that way. Identified with that. No, no. But. But there's a way of being in the world and people do notice. Yeah. But yeah, in lots of ways it's it's because in and of itself, it's. It's.
26:33

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Worthy thing to do, yeah. The other thing I wanted to just quickly say about the common ground thing the second time I did it. Worthy thing to do, yeah. The other thing I wanted to just quickly say about the common ground thing the second time I did it.
26:40

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I was in my mid 40s, right. And we did that thing where you line up all the men who were gathered in order of age. Ohh. OK, right. And of course, you know, when I've done it the first time, I was kind of midway. And when I come to these gatherings, I'm kind of midway because I'm in that demographic, you know, and bugging me if I wasn't the eldest man participating. Ohh wow. And and I I just. Elder John, Elder John. I was in my mid 40s, right. And we did that thing where you line up all the men who were gathered in order of age. Ohh. OK, right. And of course, you know, when I've done it the first time, I was kind of midway. And when I come to these gatherings, I'm kind of midway because I'm in that demographic, you know, and bugging me if I wasn't the eldest man participating. Ohh wow. And and I I just. Elder John, Elder John.
27:11

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I and I I I said I'm, I'm, I'm too young to be an elder. You know. I had one facilitator who was older than me. But when we just looked at the participants, I was, I was the eldest. I and I I I said I'm, I'm, I'm too young to be an elder. You know. I had one facilitator who was older than me. But when we just looked at the participants, I was, I was the eldest.
27:22

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And so that really challenged my sense of eldership. And of course, in this community, you know, once a man sort of hits fifty, he is. And so that really challenged my sense of eldership. And of course, in this community, you know, once a man sort of hits fifty, he is.
27:31

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Presented with that opportunity to step up as an elder and it's not something that I have felt able to do. Yeah, right. So is that are you considering exploring that further or just putting that aside for the moment, I think percolate is what I'm doing with it. I'm just letting it sit there. I'm listening. Absolutely. You know, I'm listening to the other men talk about their eldership and and what it. Presented with that opportunity to step up as an elder and it's not something that I have felt able to do. Yeah, right. So is that are you considering exploring that further or just putting that aside for the moment, I think percolate is what I'm doing with it. I'm just letting it sit there. I'm listening. Absolutely. You know, I'm listening to the other men talk about their eldership and and what it.
28:01

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What it means to them and what it means to this community. I notice, you know, when the elders stood up there that there was that there was one man who I know to be, you know, about my age or a little bit older. So he's a young elder. What it means to them and what it means to this community. I notice, you know, when the elders stood up there that there was that there was one man who I know to be, you know, about my age or a little bit older. So he's a young elder.
28:16

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Yeah. So. So it's just something I'll sit with and I'm. I'm not giving it a lot of attention. Yeah, OK. At the moment, Yeah, I guess it's a space that you really need to. Yeah. So. So it's just something I'll sit with and I'm. I'm not giving it a lot of attention. Yeah, OK. At the moment, Yeah, I guess it's a space that you really need to.
28:29

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To sort of own, isn't it? To have that responsibility of an elder, it's. To sort of own, isn't it? To have that responsibility of an elder, it's.
28:34

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It's not to be taken lightly, I suppose. It's not to be taken lightly, I suppose.
28:39

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Yeah, you're really that well, coming back to that. Yeah, you're really that well, coming back to that.
28:43

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That role model again, you you really standing in that sort of position then, aren't you? So one of the one of the funny things, I think it's funny or ironic or something. But you know, when I've talked to some of the men who are elders in this community, you know, I come with this assumption in this judgment that they've got it all figured out. And they know, you know, they're, they're wise enough to be an elder. But of course the wise ones are the ones that are saying no, I don't have it all figured out at all. That's it. No idea what. That role model again, you you really standing in that sort of position then, aren't you? So one of the one of the funny things, I think it's funny or ironic or something. But you know, when I've talked to some of the men who are elders in this community, you know, I come with this assumption in this judgment that they've got it all figured out. And they know, you know, they're, they're wise enough to be an elder. But of course the wise ones are the ones that are saying no, I don't have it all figured out at all. That's it. No idea what.
29:13

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Dude, that's funny, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, I've lately, I've often started spooking the phrase. It's. The older I get, the more I know, the less I know. Yeah. Yeah. Ohh, absolutely. Yeah. That's my experience too, is the deeper I dig, the further I've gotta go. And our little pointy cone, you know, has got a hole in the bottom, I think. I think it does. Dude, that's funny, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, I've lately, I've often started spooking the phrase. It's. The older I get, the more I know, the less I know. Yeah. Yeah. Ohh, absolutely. Yeah. That's my experience too, is the deeper I dig, the further I've gotta go. And our little pointy cone, you know, has got a hole in the bottom, I think. I think it does.
29:40

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I've gotta go. I've gotta go.
29:42

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Even I might open up again once you get to the bottom. Yeah, it it, yeah, it might be a a mirror image mixing our metaphors there. Even I might open up again once you get to the bottom. Yeah, it it, yeah, it might be a a mirror image mixing our metaphors there.
29:51

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So. So.
29:52

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You halfway through, halfway through this gathering, You're first gathering. Yep. Look, it's. You halfway through, halfway through this gathering, You're first gathering. Yep. Look, it's.
29:59

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As I mentioned, I've I've certainly been opened up. As I mentioned, I've I've certainly been opened up.
30:03

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I felt my heart opening up to other men, just just in discussions. I felt my heart opening up to other men, just just in discussions.
30:12

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Feeling. Feeling.
30:16

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Feeling the the love that is available. Feeling the the love that is available.
30:21

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Between us as humans and that's that's not to to go into that. Between us as humans and that's that's not to to go into that.
30:28

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Not love like you have between partners. Yeah, like a man and wife, for example. Not not that sort of love, but love. Not love like you have between partners. Yeah, like a man and wife, for example. Not not that sort of love, but love.
30:36

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As in the that strength of trust and community and being there for someone, so just feeling that sort of love has been. As in the that strength of trust and community and being there for someone, so just feeling that sort of love has been.
30:46

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Been something I have experienced here and just meeting the eyes of another man who is in struggles and being steadfast for them and having that reflected in my own story when I have discussed my struggles or things that I have. Been something I have experienced here and just meeting the eyes of another man who is in struggles and being steadfast for them and having that reflected in my own story when I have discussed my struggles or things that I have.
31:07

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That have worried me over the years and just seeing that solidarity reflected back in the the men that I've had conversations with is it's very safe and it's very welcomed. That have worried me over the years and just seeing that solidarity reflected back in the the men that I've had conversations with is it's very safe and it's very welcomed.
31:25

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No, I would. No, I would.
31:27

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I would go so far as to to see some of the other men in my life outside of of mentioning that I think would deeply benefit from, from being involved in this, the sort of community that's here. Because again, a lot of the guys that I know they're that they're that shell that you know, they've got that barrier up on the outside you try to go. I would go so far as to to see some of the other men in my life outside of of mentioning that I think would deeply benefit from, from being involved in this, the sort of community that's here. Because again, a lot of the guys that I know they're that they're that shell that you know, they've got that barrier up on the outside you try to go.
31:50

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You know, try to go deep where you try to to say something and there's a a sarcastic comment. Yeah, in response. That's that shield. It's not, you know, getting in here, brother. Yeah. So it's it's very, very nice to be able to. You know, try to go deep where you try to to say something and there's a a sarcastic comment. Yeah, in response. That's that shield. It's not, you know, getting in here, brother. Yeah. So it's it's very, very nice to be able to.
32:07

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Breathe that out. Just to let the barriers melt away and to to be vulnerable, as I I mentioned before, just and just to be in that space and and realise that that's part of part of who I am and essentially part of who we all are. We all have a level of vulnerability and we. Breathe that out. Just to let the barriers melt away and to to be vulnerable, as I I mentioned before, just and just to be in that space and and realise that that's part of part of who I am and essentially part of who we all are. We all have a level of vulnerability and we.
32:26

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It's OK. Yeah, So that's. It's OK. Yeah, So that's.
32:29

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Yeah, One of the beautiful things that I've I've discovered so far. So but. Yeah, One of the beautiful things that I've I've discovered so far. So but.
32:37

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Yeah. Yeah.
32:38

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Amazing, amazing bunch of guys. Amazing, amazing bunch of guys.
32:40

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Do you have you know? What are you feeling about the the the second-half is is there a sense of anticipation or is there you know? Do you have you know? What are you feeling about the the the second-half is is there a sense of anticipation or is there you know?
32:51

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Guys happening. It's funny, I'm like I said, I'm an open sort of guy and I I came in here without the expectations and I'm kind of at that point where I still don't have expectations of what's to come. I'm just being with it, just going with the flow and seeing where it takes me and. Guys happening. It's funny, I'm like I said, I'm an open sort of guy and I I came in here without the expectations and I'm kind of at that point where I still don't have expectations of what's to come. I'm just being with it, just going with the flow and seeing where it takes me and.
33:10

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As one of the workshops that we did, I'm just trying to be trying to follow my inner compass. Yeah. So I'm trying to to be intuitively guided as to what's going to best suit me. And that may be the case that I don't actually do one of the next workshops. I might just go for a walk or spend some time by myself instead. I don't know just yet. There's some wonderful workshops that are coming up. So it's. It would seem a shame not to take advantage of that while they are here. But again, it's. As one of the workshops that we did, I'm just trying to be trying to follow my inner compass. Yeah. So I'm trying to to be intuitively guided as to what's going to best suit me. And that may be the case that I don't actually do one of the next workshops. I might just go for a walk or spend some time by myself instead. I don't know just yet. There's some wonderful workshops that are coming up. So it's. It would seem a shame not to take advantage of that while they are here. But again, it's.
33:40

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We all have their different journey. So I'm, I'm on my journey, so I'll I'll just try and be in that, that heart space and and try and be guided by that as opposed to thinking what's going to be best for me. Just feel what's gonna be best for me. We all have their different journey. So I'm, I'm on my journey, so I'll I'll just try and be in that, that heart space and and try and be guided by that as opposed to thinking what's going to be best for me. Just feel what's gonna be best for me.
33:56

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So yeah. So yeah.
33:58

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That would have to be where I'm at at the halfway point. Yeah. Yeah. How about yourself as far as the what you've the workshops And. And I understand you're gonna be facilitating one of the workshops coming up. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That would have to be where I'm at at the halfway point. Yeah. Yeah. How about yourself as far as the what you've the workshops And. And I understand you're gonna be facilitating one of the workshops coming up. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
34:14

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One of the things that because I have a a cerebral job you know, I, I, I'm, I'm I'm my job is to think and you know because I'm I'm a I'm a researcher in in the nursing profession and you know when I come to gatherings it normally takes me you know roughly 24 hours to to kind of unhook from that and get out of my head and and and stop thinking stuff through and get into my heart. And I did. One of the things that because I have a a cerebral job you know, I, I, I'm, I'm I'm my job is to think and you know because I'm I'm a I'm a researcher in in the nursing profession and you know when I come to gatherings it normally takes me you know roughly 24 hours to to kind of unhook from that and get out of my head and and and stop thinking stuff through and get into my heart. And I did.
34:42

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I did a workshop yesterday morning, so you know, the 1st morning of of it. OK, yeah. Which was really physical, you know, lots of jumping around and lots of physical. Ohh look it it was, I mean, you know. I did a workshop yesterday morning, so you know, the 1st morning of of it. OK, yeah. Which was really physical, you know, lots of jumping around and lots of physical. Ohh look it it was, I mean, you know.
34:56

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I was trying to think what it was about and what it was for and what it all meant but. I was trying to think what it was about and what it was for and what it all meant but.
35:02

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I kind of. I kind of.
35:04

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Couldn't keep that up because we were being so physical. So by the end of the first session yesterday, ohh, as loose as could be. And I'm just feeling all buzzy and all good about about that. So that that helped me really let go of this. Gotta think stuff through, yeah. Having said that. Couldn't keep that up because we were being so physical. So by the end of the first session yesterday, ohh, as loose as could be. And I'm just feeling all buzzy and all good about about that. So that that helped me really let go of this. Gotta think stuff through, yeah. Having said that.
35:22

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There is this awareness that I have that tomorrow morning I have to facilitate a a workshop. I don't have to. I have elected to facilitate a workshop. There is this awareness that I have that tomorrow morning I have to facilitate a a workshop. I don't have to. I have elected to facilitate a workshop.
35:36

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And one of the things that's different for me this time, because I've facilitated other workshops before, is. And one of the things that's different for me this time, because I've facilitated other workshops before, is.
35:45

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That this one's at the last. It's on the last morning and it's the last lot of workshops. Yep. And I'm just in a much better heart space and headspace to facilitate that now, you know, I hope that lunchtime tomorrow, I'm not sort of. That this one's at the last. It's on the last morning and it's the last lot of workshops. Yep. And I'm just in a much better heart space and headspace to facilitate that now, you know, I hope that lunchtime tomorrow, I'm not sort of.
36:00

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Sitting there ruminating, saying, well, I really stuffed that up, but but I, you know, I. Sitting there ruminating, saying, well, I really stuffed that up, but but I, you know, I.
36:07

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The the experience of of getting out of my head, getting into my heart, listening, engaging, connecting with men. Puts me in a better space. Yeah. To anticipate that, Sure. Yeah. The the experience of of getting out of my head, getting into my heart, listening, engaging, connecting with men. Puts me in a better space. Yeah. To anticipate that, Sure. Yeah.
36:22

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No. Well, I'll be looking forward to it. It's one that I've put on my list. Ohh OK Ohh. As a go to. Yeah. So you're more than welcome. Yeah. Would be interesting. Yeah. So let's hope I'm not at that point where I wanna go for a walk. No. Well, I'll be looking forward to it. It's one that I've put on my list. Ohh OK Ohh. As a go to. Yeah. So you're more than welcome. Yeah. Would be interesting. Yeah. So let's hope I'm not at that point where I wanna go for a walk.
36:35

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You gotta line up, schedule that somewhere else, please. Yeah, I might go for the walk later today. We'll see what happens. Yeah. So you know, I mean, I'm because my life is is so structured outside of here. You gotta line up, schedule that somewhere else, please. Yeah, I might go for the walk later today. We'll see what happens. Yeah. So you know, I mean, I'm because my life is is so structured outside of here.
36:47

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It's probably taken me all of that time, you know, all of those years too, and all of those gatherings to to really. It's probably taken me all of that time, you know, all of those years too, and all of those gatherings to to really.
36:57

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Loosen up and let go of that need to to, you know, schedule my my time here and everything. I went for a swim yesterday. During one of the sessions, none of them actually called to me. I was looking for some time away and so I took that and that was very. Loosen up and let go of that need to to, you know, schedule my my time here and everything. I went for a swim yesterday. During one of the sessions, none of them actually called to me. I was looking for some time away and so I took that and that was very.
37:14

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Children's relaxing, Yeah, that's good. That's good, mate. We're nearly out of time. So I guess, you know, here's a chance for us to to say one last thing each, Yeah, we're here for. I just have to say that I'm very appreciative of the opportunity to be a part of this. It's as I have said in the beginning and said all the way through, it's been, it's been opening, it's been enriching. Children's relaxing, Yeah, that's good. That's good, mate. We're nearly out of time. So I guess, you know, here's a chance for us to to say one last thing each, Yeah, we're here for. I just have to say that I'm very appreciative of the opportunity to be a part of this. It's as I have said in the beginning and said all the way through, it's been, it's been opening, it's been enriching.
37:38

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I can certainly see myself being a part of future man shines and and and other man's gathering. So looking forward to what the future holds. Yeah, yeah. I can certainly see myself being a part of future man shines and and and other man's gathering. So looking forward to what the future holds. Yeah, yeah.
37:51

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Ohh yeah, I, I I hear that and and honour that that's you know that's a that's a an amazing place to be in halfway through your first ever gathering and you know that that willingness to. Ohh yeah, I, I I hear that and and honour that that's you know that's a that's a an amazing place to be in halfway through your first ever gathering and you know that that willingness to.
38:06

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To be open, I think is what I've experienced as as the. To be open, I think is what I've experienced as as the.
38:11

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As though the real linchpin to to these gatherings being most fruitful, you know. As though the real linchpin to to these gatherings being most fruitful, you know.
38:18

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He's he's, you know, because I've been open to it. I've reaped the benefits and been able to give back. He's he's, you know, because I've been open to it. I've reaped the benefits and been able to give back.
38:25

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And look, it's been great to to talk with you, you know, likewise. Yeah. Thank you for the invitation. Ohh, looking great. I just think we come from, we come from different experiences, but we each have each have our own knowing to bring to a conversation like this. So that's it. Common ground without coining a phrase. And look, it's been great to to talk with you, you know, likewise. Yeah. Thank you for the invitation. Ohh, looking great. I just think we come from, we come from different experiences, but we each have each have our own knowing to bring to a conversation like this. So that's it. Common ground without coining a phrase.
38:44

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Don't know. Don't know.