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This is Lesley Jenkins conducting an interview with Clive Hughes in his home at Hollywell and this interview is for the Kurilpa Childcare Centre History and it's the 15th of July 2008. Clive, can I start by asking you your full name and your date and place of birth? This is Lesley Jenkins conducting an interview with Clive Hughes in his home at Hollywell and this interview is for the Kurilpa Childcare Centre History and it's the 15th of July 2008. Clive, can I start by asking you your full name and your date and place of birth?
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Full name Clive Melwyn, MELWYN Hughes. Full name Clive Melwyn, MELWYN Hughes.
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Place of Birth New Farm, 1924. Place of Birth New Farm, 1924.
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New Farm, Brisbane. [Lesley] New Farm, Brisbane, and can you tell me just a little bit about your background? When did you enter politics? New Farm, Brisbane. [Lesley] New Farm, Brisbane, and can you tell me just a little bit about your background? When did you enter politics?
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[Clive] Firstly, as in those days they were called Aldermen and now they are called Councillors in the city in the City Hall, Brisbane. [Clive] Firstly, as in those days they were called Aldermen and now they are called Councillors in the city in the City Hall, Brisbane.
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And then uh And then uh
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To ah - um, went to Parliament as member for Kurilpa. As the seat was then called, the area, the electorate was then called. To ah - um, went to Parliament as member for Kurilpa. As the seat was then called, the area, the electorate was then called.
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And and do you remember what year that was that you were elected as the member for Kurilpa? And and do you remember what year that was that you were elected as the member for Kurilpa?
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Ohh 19 - Ohh 19 -
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I think it would be about 1946 because I was in the Air Force four years and I was discharged in '46. I think it would be about 1946 because I was in the Air Force four years and I was discharged in '46.
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So it would be even later than that. No I can't exactly remember. So it would be even later than that. No I can't exactly remember.
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And were you an Alderman with the Brisbane City Council - [Clive] City Council yes. [Lesley] - for very many years? And were you an Alderman with the Brisbane City Council - [Clive] City Council yes. [Lesley] - for very many years?
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Two or three terms there. Two or three terms there.
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I know the last term, I was elected to Parliament while still an Alderman in the Brisbane City Council and uh - I know the last term, I was elected to Parliament while still an Alderman in the Brisbane City Council and uh -
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And it was - I, I was asked to continue, And it was - I, I was asked to continue,
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And as a - as both Alderman and member to avoid a - a by-election because I think we only had about, And as a - as both Alderman and member to avoid a - a by-election because I think we only had about,
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9 to 12 months before the general election and for a council and they did not want the uh 9 to 12 months before the general election and for a council and they did not want the uh
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Administrators of - of the parties did not want a by election, save the cost of it as well as, uh, the problems of it. So I was both an Alderman and a member of parliament and I remember on many an occasions Administrators of - of the parties did not want a by election, save the cost of it as well as, uh, the problems of it. So I was both an Alderman and a member of parliament and I remember on many an occasions
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a Telephone call would come to Parliament House while the house was in session and sitting and I asked if I a Telephone call would come to Parliament House while the house was in session and sitting and I asked if I
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could get down to the council quick, there's going to be a division in 5 minutes. So I had plenty of exercise running between Parliament and City Hall and then back again and so as required. [Lesley] And when you were the member for Kurilpa, which political party were you a member of? could get down to the council quick, there's going to be a division in 5 minutes. So I had plenty of exercise running between Parliament and City Hall and then back again and so as required. [Lesley] And when you were the member for Kurilpa, which political party were you a member of?
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The Liberals. The Liberals.
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And, um, um, tell me a little bit about your association with Gladys Midwinter. How - how did you know her? And, um, um, tell me a little bit about your association with Gladys Midwinter. How - how did you know her?
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By virtue of the fact that I was, uh By virtue of the fact that I was, uh
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Involved with the areas around that - in that district and I Involved with the areas around that - in that district and I
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I took a great interest in those days in schools and and public beneficiary organisations. I took a great interest in those days in schools and and public beneficiary organisations.
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And um I And um I
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I called in there as a matter of course. I called in there as a matter of course.
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And then to see if there was any way to introduce myself, any way they - they - they needed any help or anything like that, I could be of any assistance to them. So, ah, at least we did it on a personal basis then. And then to see if there was any way to introduce myself, any way they - they - they needed any help or anything like that, I could be of any assistance to them. So, ah, at least we did it on a personal basis then.
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And that's how I became, uh And that's how I became, uh
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Knowledge of the Kurilpa Childcare Centre. Knowledge of the Kurilpa Childcare Centre.
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But, uh But, uh
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It - it boomed and blossomed not because of me but the way it was run and it was a very popular district function. [Lesley] And do you remember roughly what year it was that you became involved with the childcare centre? It - it boomed and blossomed not because of me but the way it was run and it was a very popular district function. [Lesley] And do you remember roughly what year it was that you became involved with the childcare centre?
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I have to go - try to get it backwards. I have to go - try to get it backwards.
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4 years. I became 18 in 1942 and joined the Air Force. 4 years. I became 18 in 1942 and joined the Air Force.
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And I was discharged in 1946. And I was discharged in 1946.
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It was, uh, when the war was over. It was, uh, when the war was over.
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And, uh And, uh
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It was some time, ohh, I think even. It was some time, ohh, I think even.
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Yeah, I would think it was even a couple of years after that before I got involved with the Yeah, I would think it was even a couple of years after that before I got involved with the
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With the, ah - [Lesley] So do you think the late 1940s? [Clive] Yes. With the, ah - [Lesley] So do you think the late 1940s? [Clive] Yes.
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And the council 19 - And the council 19 -
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1946. 1946.
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I was a Liberal by pers- political persuasion and, ah, it was a - that area was a, uh, as I say, I was Alderman for Yeronga. I was a Liberal by pers- political persuasion and, ah, it was a - that area was a, uh, as I say, I was Alderman for Yeronga.
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But that area was a uh a, um But that area was a uh a, um
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What was known to be a diehard Labor seat because South Brisbane, West End and then out to What was known to be a diehard Labor seat because South Brisbane, West End and then out to
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A little bit of Fairfield, but just touching on Fairfield, A little bit of Fairfield, but just touching on Fairfield,
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And it had a long history of being held by the Labor Party and uh And it had a long history of being held by the Labor Party and uh
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I was approached by the Liberal Party, ah to, ah - I was not a member of the Liberal Party at the time, but I was approached and asked to stand for the seat for the Liberal Party because they, ah, they wanted to get as many seats as they could to try and be able to uh I was approached by the Liberal Party, ah to, ah - I was not a member of the Liberal Party at the time, but I was approached and asked to stand for the seat for the Liberal Party because they, ah, they wanted to get as many seats as they could to try and be able to uh
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Take government Take government
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at the time. at the time.
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You know, I did stand and, ah, won the seat. You know, I did stand and, ah, won the seat.
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And uh And uh
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I stayed in two jobs as both Alderman and to - to avoid a by-election. I stayed in two jobs as both Alderman and to - to avoid a by-election.
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Both Alderman and uh Both Alderman and uh
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And a member of Parliament at the one time, and I was working like a 1 armed paper hanger with the hives, believe me, [interviewer laughs] running between both places when they were both sitting on the same sitting day and, ah, and when there was to be a division in the house in Parliament or the council - a phone call 'Clive get back here quick' there will be a division coming up. And a member of Parliament at the one time, and I was working like a 1 armed paper hanger with the hives, believe me, [interviewer laughs] running between both places when they were both sitting on the same sitting day and, ah, and when there was to be a division in the house in Parliament or the council - a phone call 'Clive get back here quick' there will be a division coming up.
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You know, going there for voting. You know, going there for voting.
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You know, in in the, ah, meeting. [Lesley] And was Gladys Midwinter a- a- of a Liberal persuasion? [Clive] No. [Lesley] She was Labor was she? [Clive] Yes. [Lesley] A Labor thinking person? [Clive] Yes. But that that didn't, ah, - I mean people's politics didn't worry me one little bit and they're entitled them the same as religion. And I was never that sort of a diehard Liberal that I wouldn't speak to somebody who was Labor. I I think that's just plain stupidity. But there are people like that. [Lesley] Yes. [Clive] Or there were in those days. You know, in in the, ah, meeting. [Lesley] And was Gladys Midwinter a- a- of a Liberal persuasion? [Clive] No. [Lesley] She was Labor was she? [Clive] Yes. [Lesley] A Labor thinking person? [Clive] Yes. But that that didn't, ah, - I mean people's politics didn't worry me one little bit and they're entitled them the same as religion. And I was never that sort of a diehard Liberal that I wouldn't speak to somebody who was Labor. I I think that's just plain stupidity. But there are people like that. [Lesley] Yes. [Clive] Or there were in those days.
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Uh. Uh.
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And at that time, can you describe where the childcare centre was, what what was [it] like? And at that time, can you describe where the childcare centre was, what what was [it] like?
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I have memories of it being in a - in an old house. I have memories of it being in a - in an old house.
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In, in, in, just at that area. In, in, in, just at that area.
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Near the near the West End library. Was it near there? [Clive] Yes, yes. [Lesley] But so it wasn't in the hall next door? [Clive] No no. [Lesley] It was in a house? [Clive] Yes. And, ah, that's how I first remember it. Mind you it was very Near the near the West End library. Was it near there? [Clive] Yes, yes. [Lesley] But so it wasn't in the hall next door? [Clive] No no. [Lesley] It was in a house? [Clive] Yes. And, ah, that's how I first remember it. Mind you it was very
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Very, ah, small number of, ah, of children at that time. Very, ah, small number of, ah, of children at that time.
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And then uh And then uh
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It became It became
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You know, quite uh You know, quite uh
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Almost fashionable that, ah, married women folk could get back in the workforce, and so many, many more kept work- started getting back into the workforce. Almost fashionable that, ah, married women folk could get back in the workforce, and so many, many more kept work- started getting back into the workforce.
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People wanting to save up to buy a house of their own and that sort of thing. People wanting to save up to buy a house of their own and that sort of thing.
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And uh And uh
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As a result, it grew from that. As a result, it grew from that.
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From an old house, that was there From an old house, that was there
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Before Before
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The numbers required that it that it necess- of necessity it required more space and it had to be put on a more businesslike basis too. The numbers required that it that it necess- of necessity it required more space and it had to be put on a more businesslike basis too.
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Well. Well.
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I was that - that's when I was asked to, ah, to, ah, take a a more major role in in the, ah, in the centres. I was that - that's when I was asked to, ah, to, ah, take a a more major role in in the, ah, in the centres.
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And, ah, it came up that of necessity because of demand that women folk getting back in the workforce and wanting to have their children minded to enable that to happen. And, ah, it came up that of necessity because of demand that women folk getting back in the workforce and wanting to have their children minded to enable that to happen.
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This childcare centre came into being in an old house there, sorry, and then, um, This childcare centre came into being in an old house there, sorry, and then, um,
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Then as numbers grew and demand for, you know, for the community demand for child caring Then as numbers grew and demand for, you know, for the community demand for child caring
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Wherever it was decided that we Wherever it was decided that we
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That that we would build a a centre of our own so we obtained the land, and, ah, I knew Robin Gibson, who was a prominent architect in Brisbane in those days. That that we would build a a centre of our own so we obtained the land, and, ah, I knew Robin Gibson, who was a prominent architect in Brisbane in those days.
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And, ah, I I asked Robin if he'd draw the plans for a Centre for us, gave him the details of of our of the requirements, and it went from there. And, ah, I I asked Robin if he'd draw the plans for a Centre for us, gave him the details of of our of the requirements, and it went from there.
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So Robin Gibson designed the Centre in Bound - 164 Boundary Street? [Clive] Yes. So Robin Gibson designed the Centre in Bound - 164 Boundary Street? [Clive] Yes.
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And how was the childcare centre run at that time? Was it a management committee structure? And how was the childcare centre run at that time? Was it a management committee structure?
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Not at the start. It was just sort of Not at the start. It was just sort of
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A few people who were involved in in in running the centre, ah, and minding the children through the day, ah, as a, ah,  A few people who were involved in in in running the centre, ah, and minding the children through the day, ah, as a, ah, 
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Community minded citizens, you might say, got together and did this and then it became, Community minded citizens, you might say, got together and did this and then it became,
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enlarged by a number of people wanting enlarged by a number of people wanting
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to uh to uh
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For it's use that uh it was just impossible to go on in that sort of situation. So I I uh For it's use that uh it was just impossible to go on in that sort of situation. So I I uh
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We arranged with the Council, We arranged with the Council,
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for a for a
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for a leases of land and for a leases of land and
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And then acquired land to build the Centre. And then acquired land to build the Centre.
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And that's when the trustees were, of necessity, required under the law. You just couldn't build a centre owned by Tom Dick or Harry for community purposes and because we got the land And that's when the trustees were, of necessity, required under the law. You just couldn't build a centre owned by Tom Dick or Harry for community purposes and because we got the land
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I remember we got the land from the Council. We didn't get it from, we didn't buy it. I remember we got the land from the Council. We didn't get it from, we didn't buy it.
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And I think it was And I think it was
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originally originally
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started on that basis, because the centre didn't have any money. started on that basis, because the centre didn't have any money.
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It was just a fledgling, yeah, organisation then. It was just a fledgling, yeah, organisation then.
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And, ah, as trustees were required that the land had to go into the name of the centre. But the centre had to have trustees who held the assets of it. And it's it's still commonly used today, not that centre, but various organisations and public purpose community areas and buildings are not owned by one or two people. There's got to be, there's got to be some authority to take And, ah, as trustees were required that the land had to go into the name of the centre. But the centre had to have trustees who held the assets of it. And it's it's still commonly used today, not that centre, but various organisations and public purpose community areas and buildings are not owned by one or two people. There's got to be, there's got to be some authority to take
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responsibility for the conduct, running, the upkeep and all that of these buildings. And that's how the trust - they must have trustees. [Lesley] So do you remember who who who else apart from yourself was a trustee in those early days?  [Clive] Now if you had asked me these questions a few years ago I could have given you almost their blood group of people, their names, addresses, their blood groups. Now I'm flat out remembering my name. [laughter] responsibility for the conduct, running, the upkeep and all that of these buildings. And that's how the trust - they must have trustees. [Lesley] So do you remember who who who else apart from yourself was a trustee in those early days?  [Clive] Now if you had asked me these questions a few years ago I could have given you almost their blood group of people, their names, addresses, their blood groups. Now I'm flat out remembering my name. [laughter]
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No. [Lesley] Well, was your background... [Clive] Caswell, Col Caswell the chemist. [Lesley] Col Caswell. [Clive] Who was Davies Pharmacy on the corner of Vulture and Boundary St. He was a knowledgeable about all these things. He might be helpful to you. No. [Lesley] Well, was your background... [Clive] Caswell, Col Caswell the chemist. [Lesley] Col Caswell. [Clive] Who was Davies Pharmacy on the corner of Vulture and Boundary St. He was a knowledgeable about all these things. He might be helpful to you.
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And um. And um.
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Before you entered politics, what was your profession? Before you entered politics, what was your profession?
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I I
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I was a build - I was a - started off as a saw miller. I was a build - I was a - started off as a saw miller.
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After the war, I was in the Air Force in the war years, and after discharge thousands of men were discharged and women folk too at the same time virtually, so the After the war, I was in the Air Force in the war years, and after discharge thousands of men were discharged and women folk too at the same time virtually, so the
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Unemployment was high because there were not the jobs, you know, business and industry, industries and those things. Unemployment was high because there were not the jobs, you know, business and industry, industries and those things.
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Just were Just were
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closed right down, a lot of them, through the war years, except the essential industries and so unemployment was high and, ah, so I think, right well - I found my own job, I started a sawmill because there were lots of people getting out of out of the services all at once. 10s of thousands of men and many women folk because they were women's services as well and uh closed right down, a lot of them, through the war years, except the essential industries and so unemployment was high and, ah, so I think, right well - I found my own job, I started a sawmill because there were lots of people getting out of out of the services all at once. 10s of thousands of men and many women folk because they were women's services as well and uh
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They  -these people were getting married and and they needed a home. They  -these people were getting married and and they needed a home.
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And family and get on with their lives, so there was a great demand then for accommodation. And family and get on with their lives, so there was a great demand then for accommodation.
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And so I started a, ah, a sawmill a- at Strathpine. And so I started a, ah, a sawmill a- at Strathpine.
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To to, ah, because I had been building - so I - to get my own timber supplies and it grew on from there. To to, ah, because I had been building - so I - to get my own timber supplies and it grew on from there.
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And you were asked to stand for the...? [Clive] Yes And you were asked to stand for the...? [Clive] Yes
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[Lesley] How did they know you? How did the Liberal Party know about you? [Clive] Oh, it'd be because I'd been an Alderman in the Brisbane City Council. [Lesley] Oh, I see. [Clive] And, ah, I think it could be safely said that my name was fairly well, ah, known by then. [Lesley] Yes. [Lesley] How did they know you? How did the Liberal Party know about you? [Clive] Oh, it'd be because I'd been an Alderman in the Brisbane City Council. [Lesley] Oh, I see. [Clive] And, ah, I think it could be safely said that my name was fairly well, ah, known by then. [Lesley] Yes.
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[Clive] Because of being an Alderman. [Lesley] Yeah. [Clive] And uh- [Clive] Because of being an Alderman. [Lesley] Yeah. [Clive] And uh-
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The, ah, Brisbane Telegraph was the afternoon newspaper and somehow The, ah, Brisbane Telegraph was the afternoon newspaper and somehow
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And the Courier Mail and the Telegraph, were the two Brisbane papers. And the Courier Mail and the Telegraph, were the two Brisbane papers.
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And Councils met, Council met 2:00 - I think it was Tuesday afternoon. And Councils met, Council met 2:00 - I think it was Tuesday afternoon.
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Once a week and Once a week and
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So their reporters would be there. So their reporters would be there.
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And uh And uh
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Why? I'm not so sure. But anyway, I seem to get more than my fair share of publicity. Fortunately, it was Why? I'm not so sure. But anyway, I seem to get more than my fair share of publicity. Fortunately, it was
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Ohh all good publicity and that did a lot to Ohh all good publicity and that did a lot to
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To get my name known as well as then, the Liberal Party wanted somebody to stand for Kurilpa. To get my name known as well as then, the Liberal Party wanted somebody to stand for Kurilpa.
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And I said, 'you won't win that seat'. And I said, 'you won't win that seat'.
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And they said 'because that had been Labor from the year dot'. And they said 'because that had been Labor from the year dot'.
15:52

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And while I was in the Lib while I was in Council, I was a member of Citizens municipal organisation which was theoretically a a non political party. And while I was in the Lib while I was in Council, I was a member of Citizens municipal organisation which was theoretically a a non political party.
16:06

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And uh And uh
16:08

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Although I must say that most of its members were of a Although I must say that most of its members were of a
16:13

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Liberal Liberal
16:16

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Politics persuasion. Politics persuasion.
16:18

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Sir John Chandler was the Lord Mayor at the time and he was the owner of  4BH Brisbane. Sir John Chandler was the Lord Mayor at the time and he was the owner of  4BH Brisbane.
16:27

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And it was through having a sawmill that I got to know Sir John Chandler. And it was through having a sawmill that I got to know Sir John Chandler.
16:31

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He was an orchid fancier, very well respected and well known. He was an orchid fancier, very well respected and well known.
16:36

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And uh And uh
16:37

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In those days there was ah say In those days there was ah say
16:40

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Many people being discharged from the Services and uh Many people being discharged from the Services and uh
16:45

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They had not been houses built for years because They had not been houses built for years because
16:49

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Both of the shortage of materials and labour, you know. Both of the shortage of materials and labour, you know.
16:55

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There was a lot of the the carpenters and those people had joined the Services through the war, so there was a real hiatus there. There was a lot of the the carpenters and those people had joined the Services through the war, so there was a real hiatus there.
17:04

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And I took this up and and built a sawmill, and although I knew nothing about sawmilling. I got a man who did know a lot. Bill Sinclair came from Brooks Joinery Works. I got to know him earlier and so I asked him if he'd come along and help to get this sawmill built because I knew nothing about them. And I took this up and and built a sawmill, and although I knew nothing about sawmilling. I got a man who did know a lot. Bill Sinclair came from Brooks Joinery Works. I got to know him earlier and so I asked him if he'd come along and help to get this sawmill built because I knew nothing about them.
17:25

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And we we built the sawmill at Strathpine And we we built the sawmill at Strathpine
17:30

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And we had to uh And we had to uh
17:35

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We could only get a permit We could only get a permit
17:40

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To operate a sawmill if you To operate a sawmill if you
17:44

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Used only timber, logs got your logs from private supplies, private property. Used only timber, logs got your logs from private supplies, private property.
17:52

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You know, by, obviously by making deals of of the ownership of the property. You know, by, obviously by making deals of of the ownership of the property.
17:57

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Right, I've got this licence and I Right, I've got this licence and I
18:01

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had to prove that we did have supplies enough required had to prove that we did have supplies enough required
18:05

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to run the mill, my mother who had sold a very large boarding house we once owned at Bowen Hills. to run the mill, my mother who had sold a very large boarding house we once owned at Bowen Hills.
18:13

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She loaned to me a £1000 in those days, which was a lot of money and that enabled me to She loaned to me a £1000 in those days, which was a lot of money and that enabled me to
18:20

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buy a 1000 acres of land at Burpengary, Nerangba. buy a 1000 acres of land at Burpengary, Nerangba.
18:27

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A pound an acre. A pound an acre.
18:28

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And also some money to buy the necessary And also some money to buy the necessary
18:34

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Even the minimum minimum amount of equipment to run a sawmill. Even the minimum minimum amount of equipment to run a sawmill.
18:39

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And that had to be made in Sydney and sent up by rail. And that had to be made in Sydney and sent up by rail.
18:45

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So that's how that got going, the sawmill and building business.... Mm and when you were a member for Kurilpa who managed the business? So that's how that got going, the sawmill and building business.... Mm and when you were a member for Kurilpa who managed the business?
18:55

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A chap called Sinclair, who taught me what I know about sawmilling. He was at Brooks joining works at Kedron. A long time family owned business. A chap called Sinclair, who taught me what I know about sawmilling. He was at Brooks joining works at Kedron. A long time family owned business.
19:06

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And I think it even might still be operating. And I think it even might still be operating.
19:09

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But Bill Sinclair was the manager of that business and I got to know him earlier and asked him if he'd But Bill Sinclair was the manager of that business and I got to know him earlier and asked him if he'd
19:19

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Advise me on how to start a sawmill? Which he did and he later came and managed it for us. And how long were you Minister for Kurilpa for? Advise me on how to start a sawmill? Which he did and he later came and managed it for us. And how long were you Minister for Kurilpa for?
19:29

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How long were you were a politician for? Oh How long were you were a politician for? Oh
19:33

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1960. 1960.
19:39

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 this might help us.  ohh, you've got time, your [....]. Mm.  this might help us.  ohh, you've got time, your [....]. Mm.