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Language	English (Australian)	“Colour” not “Color”, “Organise” not “Organize”
Contractions	Transcribe as you hear them	“Shoulda”, “Didn’t”
Filled Pauses & Hesitations	Transcribe as you hear them	“ah”, “eh”, “um”
Noise	Transcribe in brackets; use descriptive language	“And then we [door slam]”, “So cold! [Brrrrr]”
Numbers	Transcribe street address numbers as numerals, all other numbers as words	“11 West 40th Street”
Hard-to-understand	For speech that is difficult or impossible to understand, use question marks before and after	“And she told me that ?I should just leave?”, “Her name was ?inaudible?”
Truncated Words	Sometimes words may seem to be repeated from the end of one line to the start of the next. Transcribe these as you hear them and use your best judgment
Partial words	If someone stops speaking in the middle of a word, transcribe as much of the word as they say; follow it with a comma	“Tes, Testing”, “Absolu, Absolutely”
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0:01

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This is David Abrahams, uh, recording an interview with Doctor Richard Scotton at his lovely home in Melbourne, on the 3rd of April 2009, for the Clarence River Sesquicentenary Project of Reflections on the Clarence being conducted by Year 3A. Good morning Richard and thanks very much for your time. Good morning David, very nice to meet up with you. Yeah, that's good. We'll just start off with a few formal things. Uh, can you give us your, when you were born and where? This is David Abrahams, uh, recording an interview with Doctor Richard Scotton at his lovely home in Melbourne, on the 3rd of April 2009, for the Clarence River Sesquicentenary Project of Reflections on the Clarence being conducted by Year 3A. Good morning Richard and thanks very much for your time. Good morning David, very nice to meet up with you. Yeah, that's good. We'll just start off with a few formal things. Uh, can you give us your, when you were born and where?

0:30

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Yes, I was born in Lithgow, 19th of December 1930 in the height of the depression and you can imagine what Lithgow was like in those days. Yeah. With all the, all the industry Yes, I was born in Lithgow, 19th of December 1930 in the height of the depression and you can imagine what Lithgow was like in those days. Yeah. With all the, all the industry

0:43

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but, uh, broke the Australian Iron and Steel, they'd just pulled out and gone to Woolongong. The small arms factory closed down, the, the knitting mills, which were the, you know, employed a lot of the working people there, closed down. So it must have been pretty grim times, but I have no personal recollection of that. But, uh. Yeah. It must have been, you know, it's a pretty grim place. but, uh, broke the Australian Iron and Steel, they'd just pulled out and gone to Woolongong. The small arms factory closed down, the, the knitting mills, which were the, you know, employed a lot of the working people there, closed down. So it must have been pretty grim times, but I have no personal recollection of that. But, uh. Yeah. It must have been, you know, it's a pretty grim place.

1:10

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Did you come from Lithgow directly to Grafton? No, we, when I, in 1934, I was born in 1930, 1934 we moved to Tumut, Did you come from Lithgow directly to Grafton? No, we, when I, in 1934, I was born in 1930, 1934 we moved to Tumut,

1:20

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and that's where I started school. Right. And I think I was in, I was in the middle of 4th class when we left Tumut in 1939, June 1939, and moved to Grafton. Yeah. And your father was a Dentist? He was a Dentist. Yes. and, uh, where, where, where was your father born? and that's where I started school. Right. And I think I was in, I was in the middle of 4th class when we left Tumut in 1939, June 1939, and moved to Grafton. Yeah. And your father was a Dentist? He was a Dentist. Yes. and, uh, where, where, where was your father born?

1:41

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He was He was

1:43

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I'm, I'm, I would have to look up my genealogical stuff. I think, his, his parents lived most of their lives in, in, in Armidale. Oh yeah. I'm not sure whether he was born I'm, I'm, I would have to look up my genealogical stuff. I think, his, his parents lived most of their lives in, in, in Armidale. Oh yeah. I'm not sure whether he was born

1:55

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in, in, uh, in, in, uh,

1:58

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Hexham, where they lived before that. Yeah. Or they moved, they moved from there to Armidale about the time of his birth, somewhere on. When was he born...1900? He was born in November '01. '01, yeah. Hexham, where they lived before that. Yeah. Or they moved, they moved from there to Armidale about the time of his birth, somewhere on. When was he born...1900? He was born in November '01. '01, yeah.

2:14

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Mother? She was born? She, she was born Mother? She was born? She, she was born

2:18

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a couple of, couple of years later Yeah. At Hurstville. At Hurstville, in Sydney. Hmm. She was, she was always a city girl. Yeah. And she was a couple of, couple of years later Yeah. At Hurstville. At Hurstville, in Sydney. Hmm. She was, she was always a city girl. Yeah. And she was

2:28

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a very bright girl, got a lot of encouragement at school. Her father was, you know, um, not well educated but very, very highly intelligent and she was their only child. Yeah. The apple of their eye and she went to Sydney girls high and then to Sydney, to Sydney, won a scholarship went to Sydney University, graduated with them, graduated with honours in Latin and Mathematics. Did she? And was a High School teacher for a very bright girl, got a lot of encouragement at school. Her father was, you know, um, not well educated but very, very highly intelligent and she was their only child. Yeah. The apple of their eye and she went to Sydney girls high and then to Sydney, to Sydney, won a scholarship went to Sydney University, graduated with them, graduated with honours in Latin and Mathematics. Did she? And was a High School teacher for

2:58

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quite a few years until my father bought her out before the end of her bonded period, [laughter] And they got married so. And she then had to give up? She had, yes, teachers, you know, couldn't have, there were, there were no married women teachers in those days. As soon as you were, as soon as you're married, you're out. quite a few years until my father bought her out before the end of her bonded period, [laughter] And they got married so. And she then had to give up? She had, yes, teachers, you know, couldn't have, there were, there were no married women teachers in those days. As soon as you were, as soon as you're married, you're out.

3:19

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So she, So she,

3:20

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she, I think she, I think she had, uh, bonded for five years and she got married four years after her, I think she was in the teaching for four years. Yeah. And she taught Mathematics and Latin. she, I think she, I think she had, uh, bonded for five years and she got married four years after her, I think she was in the teaching for four years. Yeah. And she taught Mathematics and Latin.

3:33

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Where, where, where was that? Where would that have been? Was that, Where, where, where was that? Where would that have been? Was that,

3:38

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been in Sydney? been in Sydney?

3:40

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No, it was all, it was always, it was in, Inverell and Cowra, were the two places. Oh, right. Yeah. Didn't, you had to be well up the tree before you got a teaching job in Sydney and, of course, a much larger proportion of the population lived in the country in those days. That's right. No, it was all, it was always, it was in, Inverell and Cowra, were the two places. Oh, right. Yeah. Didn't, you had to be well up the tree before you got a teaching job in Sydney and, of course, a much larger proportion of the population lived in the country in those days. That's right.

4:02

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Than is presently the case. Yeah. So you started teaching life in the back, you know, in the, in the back blocks in those days. Yeah. Than is presently the case. Yeah. So you started teaching life in the back, you know, in the, in the back blocks in those days. Yeah.

4:11

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And, uh, you came to Grafton in '39? '39, June '39. And you were, you were nine years old then, and you. I would have been eight. I had my ninth birthday in December 1939. Yeah. And I was in fourth class, which was a year ahead of everybody else, because when I, when I started school in Tumut, And, uh, you came to Grafton in '39? '39, June '39. And you were, you were nine years old then, and you. I would have been eight. I had my ninth birthday in December 1939. Yeah. And I was in fourth class, which was a year ahead of everybody else, because when I, when I started school in Tumut,

4:33

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it was a a set up where there were sort of four rows of people and one row which were, I suppose, the bright kids went on to second class... Oh yeah. And the rest of them repeated first class. Oh. It was a sort of kinder, there was no formal kindergarten in there, so I, it was a a set up where there were sort of four rows of people and one row which were, I suppose, the bright kids went on to second class... Oh yeah. And the rest of them repeated first class. Oh. It was a sort of kinder, there was no formal kindergarten in there, so I,

4:52

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I really spent my entire school life. A year ahead? A year ahead I was, I was always a little over twelve months younger than the average age of the class. That's right. And, uh, can you remember your teachers at Grafton Primary school at all? Oh, yes, yes, I got, I got up, I went up to Tom Morris's class. Right. And I've never seen kids belted before. I really spent my entire school life. A year ahead? A year ahead I was, I was always a little over twelve months younger than the average age of the class. That's right. And, uh, can you remember your teachers at Grafton Primary school at all? Oh, yes, yes, I got, I got up, I went up to Tom Morris's class. Right. And I've never seen kids belted before.

5:22

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And Lenny Woods was in the class and he was the butt of, of uh, And Lenny Woods was in the class and he was the butt of, of uh,

5:30

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Tom Morris, 'cause he used to get him out in the front and cane him. I mean it was just absolute atrocious and I was horrified, I was absolutely horrified. I don't want to see any of it. It was a, Tom Morris, 'cause he used to get him out in the front and cane him. I mean it was just absolute atrocious and I was horrified, I was absolutely horrified. I don't want to see any of it. It was a,

5:45

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it was something that should never have been allowed in our educational system because poor old Roy was, was half witted. I mean he had no chance. Yeah. He was much older than the rest of us and he was just, you know, he should have, should have been in a special school somewhere but there were no such things in those days. Yeah. And Tom was just a bully. Right. it was something that should never have been allowed in our educational system because poor old Roy was, was half witted. I mean he had no chance. Yeah. He was much older than the rest of us and he was just, you know, he should have, should have been in a special school somewhere but there were no such things in those days. Yeah. And Tom was just a bully. Right.

6:09

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And then you went on to High School? Oh, yes, I went to, I, I then, I was only there for half a year, we arrived in June '39. Yeah. It was in, in, the in, in two more in fifth and sixth class and then went to Grafton High and I was there for three years and I had my, I did my intermediate from Grafton. Yeah. And then went down to Sydney Grammar School. And then you went on to High School? Oh, yes, I went to, I, I then, I was only there for half a year, we arrived in June '39. Yeah. It was in, in, the in, in two more in fifth and sixth class and then went to Grafton High and I was there for three years and I had my, I did my intermediate from Grafton. Yeah. And then went down to Sydney Grammar School.

6:35

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Sydney Grammar school. I did three actually, because I, I, I, see I started school, and I, when I was just five. Right. And ah Sydney Grammar school. I did three actually, because I, I, I, see I started school, and I, when I was just five. Right. And ah

6:49

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it had a system where you're, there were four rows of people and one row went up and the other row stayed on for another year. So I actually went, I spent my, I had no kindergarten, if you like. I was a year younger than the average age throughout my entire school career, marginally more than a year younger than the average age. And did you repeat a year at Sydney Grammar virtually? I repeated, I repeated my final year Leaving Certificate, basically because it had a system where you're, there were four rows of people and one row went up and the other row stayed on for another year. So I actually went, I spent my, I had no kindergarten, if you like. I was a year younger than the average age throughout my entire school career, marginally more than a year younger than the average age. And did you repeat a year at Sydney Grammar virtually? I repeated, I repeated my final year Leaving Certificate, basically because

7:19

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they wouldn't accept me at Wesley College and they wouldn't accept me at Wesley College and

7:23

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have anyone that young, have anyone that young,

7:25

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Yeah. In, in the place, you just wouldn't, uh, I see. Actually it would be quite, it would be socially, so I had a really good second year, I did, and played, played rugby and, and you know, Yeah. In, in the place, you just wouldn't, uh, I see. Actually it would be quite, it would be socially, so I had a really good second year, I did, and played, played rugby and, and you know,

7:38

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and then, then enjoyed my school year, did much, did much better and got a University exhibition actually. And so, at the end of the second year. So, you know, it was a year that I, that I enjoyed and I also enjoyed it because I lived with my grandmother instead of being a house boy. Oh right. Which rendered me vastly, vastly free of life. Yes, that was Parkes Road wasn't it? Yeah. and then, then enjoyed my school year, did much, did much better and got a University exhibition actually. And so, at the end of the second year. So, you know, it was a year that I, that I enjoyed and I also enjoyed it because I lived with my grandmother instead of being a house boy. Oh right. Which rendered me vastly, vastly free of life. Yes, that was Parkes Road wasn't it? Yeah.

8:08

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Boarding house. Yeah. Boarding house. Yeah.

8:11

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We might just stay with your career a little bit and and then come back to Grafton and after that your education at University, you, what did you do? I did, I did an Arts Degree to start with. Hmm. We might just stay with your career a little bit and and then come back to Grafton and after that your education at University, you, what did you do? I did, I did an Arts Degree to start with. Hmm.

8:26

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And, uh, I played up a bit at Wesley College and, and after, after two years I think the Master said that, you know, you, I was, I was a year younger, I was young and silly. Anyway, the Master said to me I think you know you'd be better suited in some different form of residence than this, [laughs] and it was really good, I got out. And, uh, I played up a bit at Wesley College and, and after, after two years I think the Master said that, you know, you, I was, I was a year younger, I was young and silly. Anyway, the Master said to me I think you know you'd be better suited in some different form of residence than this, [laughs] and it was really good, I got out.

8:51

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Got a job, I got a, got a job with the Commercial Banking Company of Sydney. Got a job, I got a, got a job with the Commercial Banking Company of Sydney.

8:58

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And I spent, I spent a further And I spent, I spent a further

9:01

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six years I think as an evening student, I finished the last year of my Arts Degree six years I think as an evening student, I finished the last year of my Arts Degree

9:08

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and went on and did an, did an Honours Degree in, uh, and went on and did an, did an Honours Degree in, uh,

9:13

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first class, finished with a first class Honours Degree in first class, finished with a first class Honours Degree in

9:18

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Public Administration. Yeah. By that time I was married with a child. So Yeah you know, this is the growing up period, see. Public Administration. Yeah. By that time I was married with a child. So Yeah you know, this is the growing up period, see.

9:26

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And then your career And then your career

9:30

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with the? Well, I joined the, I joined the Commercial Banking Company of Sydney. That's right. I had, I had one, I had, I'm just trying to think how many, how many years in college. I had two, I had two years in college. Yeah. with the? Well, I joined the, I joined the Commercial Banking Company of Sydney. That's right. I had, I had one, I had, I'm just trying to think how many, how many years in college. I had two, I had two years in college. Yeah.

9:45

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And then I went out and got a job in the bank and became an evening student Yeah. finished my Arts degree, did another five years to finish the economic so I had six years as an, as an evening student. And then I went out and got a job in the bank and became an evening student Yeah. finished my Arts degree, did another five years to finish the economic so I had six years as an, as an evening student.

9:59

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You came out with Honours in Economics? I graduated with Honours, and I actually was top of my University year. Yeah, that's very good. You came out with Honours in Economics? I graduated with Honours, and I actually was top of my University year. Yeah, that's very good.

10:10

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And then settled down and uh, I settled down and behaved myself a bit. [laughs] And then settled down and uh, I settled down and behaved myself a bit. [laughs]

10:15

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Well, until we married, in fact, uh, Well, until we married, in fact, uh,

10:18

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and I'm not, I'm not [Inaudible] I got a photo there, my, uh, graduate, graduation when I had a and I'm not, I'm not [Inaudible] I got a photo there, my, uh, graduate, graduation when I had a

10:25

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two year old son sitting on my lap by that stage. Even when you graduated? Yeah. [laughs] two year old son sitting on my lap by that stage. Even when you graduated? Yeah. [laughs]

10:30

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Yeah, righto, had to take some responsibility. Yeah, righto, had to take some responsibility.

10:34

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And, and your career after the bank, did you? Uh, yes, uh, And, and your career after the bank, did you? Uh, yes, uh,

10:42

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Well, I stayed in the bank for quite, for, for quite a long time. Yeah. I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to think but, but you know, by this stage I had married. I went to, I spent two years with the bank in London. Yeah. From 1948 to 1950. I came back. Well, I stayed in the bank for quite, for, for quite a long time. Yeah. I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to think but, but you know, by this stage I had married. I went to, I spent two years with the bank in London. Yeah. From 1948 to 1950. I came back.

11:02

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Might have been be '50, '50, I don't remember Yeah. I, I came back as, as the Bank's Economist, Might have been be '50, '50, I don't remember Yeah. I, I came back as, as the Bank's Economist,

11:09

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which was, you know, uh, they'd created that, that position which was, you know, uh, they'd created that, that position

11:15

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and I only lasted there about five years because I had a yen to further my academic career and I was offered a, a, a research fellowship at the, at the end, at Melbourne University. I was a beneficiary of Bob Menzies who was very keen on, on the universities and. Yes he was. He made a donation to all the universities. Melbourne used its donation to establish the Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research employing Professor Ronald Henderson as and I only lasted there about five years because I had a yen to further my academic career and I was offered a, a, a research fellowship at the, at the end, at Melbourne University. I was a beneficiary of Bob Menzies who was very keen on, on the universities and. Yes he was. He made a donation to all the universities. Melbourne used its donation to establish the Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research employing Professor Ronald Henderson as

11:45

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it's, as it's head. Yeah. And there were five it's, as it's head. Yeah. And there were five

11:49

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created, the money was enough, the endowment was enough to create, to pay for five created, the money was enough, the endowment was enough to create, to pay for five

11:55

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research fellowships research fellowships

11:57

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at the top. at the top.

11:60

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So they put in my case at the top of the lecture scale. Yeah. Which was less than I had been earning but, but enough to, enough to live on and start, [laughs] and start a new life. So that was where I left at that point. Right. Where I had been economist of the, of the bank for five years. Yeah. And I left and, and So they put in my case at the top of the lecture scale. Yeah. Which was less than I had been earning but, but enough to, enough to live on and start, [laughs] and start a new life. So that was where I left at that point. Right. Where I had been economist of the, of the bank for five years. Yeah. And I left and, and

12:19

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and I was able to, part of the deal was, of the Research Fellowship was, you could, and I was able to, part of the deal was, of the Research Fellowship was, you could,

12:27

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you were expected to work towards your PhD, which I did have a PhD in economics, you were expected to work towards your PhD, which I did have a PhD in economics,

12:35

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and it finished off with. Yeah. Brought my studies, years of study to an end. and it finished off with. Yeah. Brought my studies, years of study to an end.

12:41

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Was that a finite position that you had, that you had to do so many years at, at, at that,or? It, it was a research, research fellowship it was a, it was only for a five year appointment. I see, yeah. But the understanding was that if they had the money you'd, you'd, you'd be around for as long as they wanted to keep it that way, but hadn't, it had no, no, no security of tenure. I see. I mean it's, which worried June a bit, didn't worry me. Was that a finite position that you had, that you had to do so many years at, at, at that,or? It, it was a research, research fellowship it was a, it was only for a five year appointment. I see, yeah. But the understanding was that if they had the money you'd, you'd, you'd be around for as long as they wanted to keep it that way, but hadn't, it had no, no, no security of tenure. I see. I mean it's, which worried June a bit, didn't worry me.

13:10

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You know, I reckoned You know, I reckoned

13:12

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I'd find a job anywhere. Right. And I'd find a job anywhere. Right. And

13:16

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We had a very good time in the bank. We had two years in the London office. Yeah. And I had, I had We had a very good time in the bank. We had two years in the London office. Yeah. And I had, I had

13:26

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the time at Melbourne and, and then I got a, a Professorial the time at Melbourne and, and then I got a, a Professorial

13:34

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Fellowship with Monash Fellowship with Monash

13:37

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University. Yeah. Where I spent the rest of my career. Right. The rest of my academic career was at, was, was at Monash. University. Yeah. Where I spent the rest of my career. Right. The rest of my academic career was at, was, was at Monash.

13:47

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What, did you, you did some overseas work too. Was that What, did you, you did some overseas work too. Was that

13:53

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when, when you? I had a spell, I had a spell in London with the bank. With the bank and then? With the London office of the Bank for two years. Yeah. And at one, at one stage, uh, I, I, I, I had, I got, I got uh, a position with the Research and Statistics division at the Canadian Department of National Health and Welfare. Oh yeah. Because I, when, when you? I had a spell, I had a spell in London with the bank. With the bank and then? With the London office of the Bank for two years. Yeah. And at one, at one stage, uh, I, I, I, I had, I got, I got uh, a position with the Research and Statistics division at the Canadian Department of National Health and Welfare. Oh yeah. Because I,

14:17

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I was interested in finding out something about health insurance and its administration and so on, and they'd had a national, they'd had a, they'd had a National Health Insurance program for quite a few years. Yeah. So I worked in that and, uh, I actually developed a lot of computer programs for them, I was interested in finding out something about health insurance and its administration and so on, and they'd had a national, they'd had a, they'd had a National Health Insurance program for quite a few years. Yeah. So I worked in that and, uh, I actually developed a lot of computer programs for them,

14:38

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and came back. and came back.

14:42

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And then you worked on the Medibank there? I came back, I came back in time for the election of Gough Whitlam. Yeah. But John Deibel and I had actually formulated the, the program. I see. Now known as Medic, Medicare, but Medibank in those days that was, that was the product of our academic research which we published. Oh I see, that. We published that. Yeah. And then you worked on the Medibank there? I came back, I came back in time for the election of Gough Whitlam. Yeah. But John Deibel and I had actually formulated the, the program. I see. Now known as Medic, Medicare, but Medibank in those days that was, that was the product of our academic research which we published. Oh I see, that. We published that. Yeah.

15:10

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before I went over to Canada. before I went over to Canada.

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And, uh, and John, it had been taken up by Gough Whitlam personally. And, uh, and John, it had been taken up by Gough Whitlam personally.

15:19

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And John Deible had, but while I was away, I was away between 1969 and '72. I just got back in time for the 1972 election actually. Right. From, from, from Canada but I had done a lot of work on, in Canada. I was in, in the, in the Research and Statistics Directorate of the Department of National Health and Welfare, which administered the statistical programs of the, of the Canadian Health Insurance program. And John Deible had, but while I was away, I was away between 1969 and '72. I just got back in time for the 1972 election actually. Right. From, from, from Canada but I had done a lot of work on, in Canada. I was in, in the, in the Research and Statistics Directorate of the Department of National Health and Welfare, which administered the statistical programs of the, of the Canadian Health Insurance program.

15:49

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In fact, I developed and wrote In fact, I developed and wrote

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huge FORTRAN Program, in fact, which we, the Canadian government had started it as a provincial, the provinces had started and the Canadian government had developed a sort of umbrella program and they paid 50% of the costs. Did they? On the provincial programs, which were run by provincial, are still run by, provincial authorities. Yeah. It became more and more a national program and they had no statistics. And I got over there, I said to them, you know, you don't collect any huge FORTRAN Program, in fact, which we, the Canadian government had started it as a provincial, the provinces had started and the Canadian government had developed a sort of umbrella program and they paid 50% of the costs. Did they? On the provincial programs, which were run by provincial, are still run by, provincial authorities. Yeah. It became more and more a national program and they had no statistics. And I got over there, I said to them, you know, you don't collect any

16:22

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any data on this, it's just, you're just sort of paying money out to these people. any data on this, it's just, you're just sort of paying money out to these people.

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And, uh, they said : "Oh, we don't, you know..." I said: "Have you got a computer here, I've done a lot of computer work." And so I And, uh, they said : "Oh, we don't, you know..." I said: "Have you got a computer here, I've done a lot of computer work." And so I

16:34

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wrote a huge PL1 program. That was, that was, that was, that was the coming language. That was IBM's answer to everything. Yeah. And the beauty of it was, it incorporated everything that was in both FORTRAN and COBOL. wrote a huge PL1 program. That was, that was, that was, that was the coming language. That was IBM's answer to everything. Yeah. And the beauty of it was, it incorporated everything that was in both FORTRAN and COBOL.

16:52

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So we, I built this program which allowed the provinces to send us their data in any form in which they liked, from there they all ran computer, similar systems for administrative purposes. Oh yeah. I understood it. And I could read anything, and I can read anything and I wrote this mon, monstrous program, which actually delivered the first National Statistics. Yeah. For, for Canada, So we, I built this program which allowed the provinces to send us their data in any form in which they liked, from there they all ran computer, similar systems for administrative purposes. Oh yeah. I understood it. And I could read anything, and I can read anything and I wrote this mon, monstrous program, which actually delivered the first National Statistics. Yeah. For, for Canada,

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I mean they're just paying out money to these folk and not have any idea what was going on. So, Yeah that's it. so that, that so you know and I, I virtually developed their entire computer system, they have, they have big, I mean they're just paying out money to these folk and not have any idea what was going on. So, Yeah that's it. so that, that so you know and I, I virtually developed their entire computer system, they have, they have big,

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huge IBM computer that they used for administrative purposes of some kind and scientific stuff. So I sort of rode on the back of that. Alright, yeah. And so I did, I had a very happy time. Yeah, that's great. In Canada and huge IBM computer that they used for administrative purposes of some kind and scientific stuff. So I sort of rode on the back of that. Alright, yeah. And so I did, I had a very happy time. Yeah, that's great. In Canada and

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left that behind and came back. We arrived back left that behind and came back. We arrived back

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virtually in the, in the, virtually in the, in the,

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in, in the 1972 election campaign. Right. So it was about a month in, in Melbourne before we went off to in, in the 1972 election campaign. Right. So it was about a month in, in Melbourne before we went off to

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to, get to, to Canberra. Right. Where I was to, get to, to Canberra. Right. Where I was

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finished up as the Chairman of the Health Insurance Commission. Yeah. finished up as the Chairman of the Health Insurance Commission. Yeah.

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Well now, that's interesting. Yeah, great career, several highlights. It was sort of being in the, right around at the right time, in the right place. Oh yeah. I mean things, I don't think you could sort of walk into things, No, you manufacture them. Well now, that's interesting. Yeah, great career, several highlights. It was sort of being in the, right around at the right time, in the right place. Oh yeah. I mean things, I don't think you could sort of walk into things, No, you manufacture them.

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These days. It will be, it's, it's, it, it was a time of great, great fluidity. Yeah. In Health Insurance. That's right. These days. It will be, it's, it's, it, it was a time of great, great fluidity. Yeah. In Health Insurance. That's right.

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You, you um, You, you um,

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you certainly had a very interesting time on that, uh, now, now let's get back to Grafton, and just, for the time being, and your father was fairly heavily involved in community affairs and, uh, Yes he was, he, he was an Alderman for quite a, quite a number of years. Oh yes, yes. you certainly had a very interesting time on that, uh, now, now let's get back to Grafton, and just, for the time being, and your father was fairly heavily involved in community affairs and, uh, Yes he was, he, he was an Alderman for quite a, quite a number of years. Oh yes, yes.

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He was a, he was a very keen, keen swimmer. And we, we, were, no, he wasn't a He was a, he was a very keen, keen swimmer. And we, we, were, no, he wasn't a

19:13

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he, he wasn't a strong or really, you know, a good swimmer, top swimmer himself, but he's a very enthusiastic swimmer and. Right. he, he wasn't a strong or really, you know, a good swimmer, top swimmer himself, but he's a very enthusiastic swimmer and. Right.

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So we were all taught to swim around about four or something like that. Yeah. And he was very keen on, on the the baths were his big project. Right. He had a lot, you know, he, he was, I can't say that he was So we were all taught to swim around about four or something like that. Yeah. And he was very keen on, on the the baths were his big project. Right. He had a lot, you know, he, he was, I can't say that he was

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the driving force, but that was his mission actually to, uh, the driving force, but that was his mission actually to, uh,

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to get the proper, proper baths particularly, particularly after the Cubs disaster. Yeah, well, you were very closely involved in that, your family, weren't they? Well, I had two brothers there and to get the proper, proper baths particularly, particularly after the Cubs disaster. Yeah, well, you were very closely involved in that, your family, weren't they? Well, I had two brothers there and

19:58

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Barry, uh, the elder of the two, you know, sort of dragged Rod up onto the top of the overturned boat, Barry, uh, the elder of the two, you know, sort of dragged Rod up onto the top of the overturned boat,

20:09

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and he was, he was a good enough swimmer and he was, he was a good enough swimmer

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to be able to do that I think, we were all taught, and my father was a very keen swimmer and we were all taken to the water and taught to swim as soon as we were physically capable of doing it. Well, you lived on the riverbank, didn't you and. Yeah. We'd always been, before that? Yeah, we lived, yeah, we hadn't, we hadn't, we, our first house was not on the river bank. That's right. At the top end of Bacon, Bacon Street and McHugh Street corner. to be able to do that I think, we were all taught, and my father was a very keen swimmer and we were all taken to the water and taught to swim as soon as we were physically capable of doing it. Well, you lived on the riverbank, didn't you and. Yeah. We'd always been, before that? Yeah, we lived, yeah, we hadn't, we hadn't, we, our first house was not on the river bank. That's right. At the top end of Bacon, Bacon Street and McHugh Street corner.

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I mean, we were, we were within sight of it virtually. We could, if you stand on tiptoe you'd probably see a spot of the water but, And with Barry there was Rod was it? Was Rod in the, in the Cubs with him? Yes, Rod was in the Cubs. Right. Barry was two years older. I'm two years older than Barry and Barry's two years older than Rod. Yeah. And so, I mean, we were, we were within sight of it virtually. We could, if you stand on tiptoe you'd probably see a spot of the water but, And with Barry there was Rod was it? Was Rod in the, in the Cubs with him? Yes, Rod was in the Cubs. Right. Barry was two years older. I'm two years older than Barry and Barry's two years older than Rod. Yeah. And so,

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Barry was a better, Barry was a better swimmer. And anyway, he was, he was able to, as I say, drag Rod up onto the, onto the bottom of the upturned boat. Yeah. And they were fortunate, you know, we had some families lost two children. Yeah. We had two children. They were both saved. Yeah. I mean, Barry was a better, Barry was a better swimmer. And anyway, he was, he was able to, as I say, drag Rod up onto the, onto the bottom of the upturned boat. Yeah. And they were fortunate, you know, we had some families lost two children. Yeah. We had two children. They were both saved. Yeah. I mean,

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and it would have had something to do with the fact that our father being so keen and having us taught to swim. Yeah, there was an interesting statistic that was brought out about that, that none of the boys that drowned, lived within two blocks of the river. and it would have had something to do with the fact that our father being so keen and having us taught to swim. Yeah, there was an interesting statistic that was brought out about that, that none of the boys that drowned, lived within two blocks of the river.

21:39

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but quite a few of the boys who lived close to the river had survived. Right. And but quite a few of the boys who lived close to the river had survived. Right. And

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those, uh, those, uh,

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you know, just one of those things that when you lived on the river you sort of learn, learned to swim a bit better than. Well, that could have been so, although we, as I say, we. Yeah. We were taught, we were taught to swim, you know, by the time we were four, you know. Yeah. You're taking the swimming lessons and it was one of those, you know, just one of those things that when you lived on the river you sort of learn, learned to swim a bit better than. Well, that could have been so, although we, as I say, we. Yeah. We were taught, we were taught to swim, you know, by the time we were four, you know. Yeah. You're taking the swimming lessons and it was one of those,

22:07

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one of those things that was part and we've done that to our family too, as soon as, one of those things that was part and we've done that to our family too, as soon as,

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soon as they're physically capable of swimming. Hmm. That's excellent. We get 'em, get 'em into the water. So they're all strong swimmers. I mean none of us have been champion swimmers but we're all, we're all, we're all competent swimmers and we're all, you know, enjoy body surfing and that sort of thing. soon as they're physically capable of swimming. Hmm. That's excellent. We get 'em, get 'em into the water. So they're all strong swimmers. I mean none of us have been champion swimmers but we're all, we're all, we're all competent swimmers and we're all, you know, enjoy body surfing and that sort of thing.

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And, and you, your father was involved in the Jacaranda Festival, you were saying, and you've given me a And, and you, your father was involved in the Jacaranda Festival, you were saying, and you've given me a

22:37

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a DVD of film that he took in, He was the official photographer of the, of the, of the Jacaranda Festival. He was on, he was on the committee. Basically photographer, not basically concerned with the organisation of things. His function was, a DVD of film that he took in, He was the official photographer of the, of the, of the Jacaranda Festival. He was on, he was on the committee. Basically photographer, not basically concerned with the organisation of things. His function was,

22:59

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he was a member of the committee, but he, he's primarily responsible for, for, for he was a member of the committee, but he, he's primarily responsible for, for, for

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pictorial record. Yeah. He had some very good equipment, I think at the time. Well by the standards of amateur photography of the day he had, he had, he'd been in, he'd, he'd, he, he, he, he was, he'd been into home movies for a very long time. Yeah. But, you know, he was just a, pictorial record. Yeah. He had some very good equipment, I think at the time. Well by the standards of amateur photography of the day he had, he had, he'd been in, he'd, he'd, he, he, he, he was, he'd been into home movies for a very long time. Yeah. But, you know, he was just a,

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he was just a competent and experienced amateur photographer, he wasn't, he was just a competent and experienced amateur photographer, he wasn't,

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and he could splice film, and he could splice film,

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there's a lot of head splicing in here. Yeah. And that sort of stuff. Yeah. And this, DVD you've given me is of, is of the 1950 flood? That's, that's right. That's the 1950 flood. That's about the last of his photography actually. Yeah. He was going downhill there's a lot of head splicing in here. Yeah. And that sort of stuff. Yeah. And this, DVD you've given me is of, is of the 1950 flood? That's, that's right. That's the 1950 flood. That's about the last of his photography actually. Yeah. He was going downhill

23:54

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by that, by that stage and there's not, there's not much after that. What about the story of, of the, that actual film? He sat in the back of the boat or? Well, we had, yeah, we had, we had a boat and, and they managed to drag it up out of the river and got it down to the front yard or our front, by that, by that stage and there's not, there's not much after that. What about the story of, of the, that actual film? He sat in the back of the boat or? Well, we had, yeah, we had, we had a boat and, and they managed to drag it up out of the river and got it down to the front yard or our front,

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the house faced the river so I suppose it was our back yard. Yeah. So the house faced the river so I suppose it was our back yard. Yeah. So

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opened the gate and then the film speaks for itself, they got it, they got it out. opened the gate and then the film speaks for itself, they got it, they got it out.

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Peter Lippman was rowing, and my father was sitting up the back of the boat running, running his camera after. Yeah, that's, that's going to be, uh. Yeah, yeah, Peter Lippman was rowing, and my father was sitting up the back of the boat running, running his camera after. Yeah, that's, that's going to be, uh. Yeah, yeah,

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he was quite, he was he was quite, he was

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quite inventive in, in, in many ways a lot of these, he did quite interesting things. He, some of his films that haven't survived but he, he got himself out in front of a flying boat one time, right out on the nose cone.[laughs] Oh right. quite inventive in, in, in many ways a lot of these, he did quite interesting things. He, some of his films that haven't survived but he, he got himself out in front of a flying boat one time, right out on the nose cone.[laughs] Oh right.

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And he actually, in his own way, he's, he's a mad keen motorbike, motorbike, bike? Oh right. In his young days. Yeah, I think I remember. And went all over, all over the country and you know, when my mother, when they had the courting days, he got a side-car and I think it might have been in their early married days, I'm not sure, but, And he actually, in his own way, he's, he's a mad keen motorbike, motorbike, bike? Oh right. In his young days. Yeah, I think I remember. And went all over, all over the country and you know, when my mother, when they had the courting days, he got a side-car and I think it might have been in their early married days, I'm not sure, but,

25:13

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uh, he had, they did a lot of travelling uh, he had, they did a lot of travelling

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in, in the motorbike and side-car and I think probably it was only when I was born in 1930, they'd been married not two years at that stage, that they bought a, actually bought a car. Yeah. Do I remember seeing photographs of him on a motorbike at your house? Was that? I wouldn't be surprised, there was a photo of him. I'm sure. That's him sitting on the Douglas motorbike. Yeah. That's, that's what comes back in my mind. Yes. Yeah. in, in the motorbike and side-car and I think probably it was only when I was born in 1930, they'd been married not two years at that stage, that they bought a, actually bought a car. Yeah. Do I remember seeing photographs of him on a motorbike at your house? Was that? I wouldn't be surprised, there was a photo of him. I'm sure. That's him sitting on the Douglas motorbike. Yeah. That's, that's what comes back in my mind. Yes. Yeah.

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But, um, But, um,

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Mother wasn't to keen on the motorbike I think. Mother wasn't to keen on the motorbike I think.

25:49

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Got him into a car as soon as they were, they were married. Yeah. It might have been before, Got him into a car as soon as they were, they were married. Yeah. It might have been before,

25:55

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probably about the time they got married they got a little three-wheeler. And, uh, probably about the time they got married they got a little three-wheeler. And, uh,

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Richard, we were talking last night about, about your mother's family and particularly about her grandfather, that was Clerk of Works with the. Oh yes, her, her grandfather, Richard, we were talking last night about, about your mother's family and particularly about her grandfather, that was Clerk of Works with the. Oh yes, her, her grandfather,

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William Ferrier William Ferrier

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was, was, uh, much to my mother's concern, she didn't broadcast it, but he was a Foundation Member of the was, was, uh, much to my mother's concern, she didn't broadcast it, but he was a Foundation Member of the

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Labor Party Labor Party

26:27

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and in fact, to the point where he was actually offered and in fact, to the point where he was actually offered

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a seat in Parliament, a seat in Parliament,

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but Parliament in the 1892 election and, uh, but Parliament in the 1892 election and, uh,

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and he, he was the seat of Balmain, an eminently winnable seat. Yeah. And it was the time the Labor Party came from nothing to, to be a major party. Right. And the, the stipend of a, of a, of a, of, of parliamentary salary was not sufficient to support a very large family that he had. They had twelve or thirteen children, I think. Right. And he got a, he got a job with the prisons department and he, he was the seat of Balmain, an eminently winnable seat. Yeah. And it was the time the Labor Party came from nothing to, to be a major party. Right. And the, the stipend of a, of a, of a, of, of parliamentary salary was not sufficient to support a very large family that he had. They had twelve or thirteen children, I think. Right. And he got a, he got a job with the prisons department

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actually, as, as, actually, as, as,

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as a trainer, a trainer of as a trainer, a trainer of

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vocational training. Yes. Of the prisoners. Oh. They went to Bathurst and that meant a lot better pay than the parliamentarian. Yeah. And the, the fellow that, the one that took the place that was offered to him stayed as the Member for Balmain for twenty two years. vocational training. Yes. Of the prisoners. Oh. They went to Bathurst and that meant a lot better pay than the parliamentarian. Yeah. And the, the fellow that, the one that took the place that was offered to him stayed as the Member for Balmain for twenty two years.

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So certainly it was an offer, it was not a shaky seat. So certainly it was an offer, it was not a shaky seat.

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I don't think it's ever been held by anybody for that long. I don't think it's ever been held by anybody for that long.

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Look, I don't know much about that. Look, I don't know much about that.

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But still, But still,

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certainly this fella spent his entire parliamentary life as, uh. Yeah. Was he with the Department of Works later was that? He was number three, Chief Clerk of Works. Yeah. He actually supervised the building of Central Railway Station. Right. That's one of the great buildings in Sydney. He was the number three man in the Department of Public Works or something, which of course was one of the major, particularly in those days, where the functions of Government were more limited than they, certainly this fella spent his entire parliamentary life as, uh. Yeah. Was he with the Department of Works later was that? He was number three, Chief Clerk of Works. Yeah. He actually supervised the building of Central Railway Station. Right. That's one of the great buildings in Sydney. He was the number three man in the Department of Public Works or something, which of course was one of the major, particularly in those days, where the functions of Government were more limited than they,

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than they are in recent times. Yeah. It was one of the big, big departments. Oh yes. than they are in recent times. Yeah. It was one of the big, big departments. Oh yes.

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They're responsible for all the public works in New South Wales. Indeed. He did a lot of the, the, the planning for the City Railway, Underground Railway Oh right. It was his major, that was his They're responsible for all the public works in New South Wales. Indeed. He did a lot of the, the, the planning for the City Railway, Underground Railway Oh right. It was his major, that was his

28:39

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big project in his, his later, later years. big project in his, his later, later years.

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Unfortunately, he, uh, had worked a lot in the, in quarries and that sort of thing. He finished up with cancer of the lung and died prematurely. Umm. Otherwise I think he would have been a departmental head. Yeah. Unfortunately, he, uh, had worked a lot in the, in quarries and that sort of thing. He finished up with cancer of the lung and died prematurely. Umm. Otherwise I think he would have been a departmental head. Yeah.

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And, uh, He was a great Labour man. He organised the, the, the eight-hour day marches or ten-hour days or what And, uh, He was a great Labour man. He organised the, the, the eight-hour day marches or ten-hour days or what

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he was, uh, Secretary of the Trades and Labor Council and the, became a Senior Public Servant. Yeah. he was, uh, Secretary of the Trades and Labor Council and the, became a Senior Public Servant. Yeah.

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Very, in fact, a very religious and conservative family man. I mean, he's not a, he was, Very, in fact, a very religious and conservative family man. I mean, he's not a, he was,

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the Labor Party was, I think, a broader church in those days than it is now. the Labor Party was, I think, a broader church in those days than it is now.

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And did you, were you in Grafton during any of the floods when you, personally, were you? No. Yeah. Never, there was never a flood. I went down to school, see I, I went, we went to Grafton in mid,1939. I went to school in 19- at the beginning of 1945. Yeah. And there was no flood in Grafton during that period. That's right. I do remember And did you, were you in Grafton during any of the floods when you, personally, were you? No. Yeah. Never, there was never a flood. I went down to school, see I, I went, we went to Grafton in mid,1939. I went to school in 19- at the beginning of 1945. Yeah. And there was no flood in Grafton during that period. That's right. I do remember

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passing through a flood at Kempsey or some, somewhere at, at, at one stage while either going to school or college or something like that. Oh right. But I, passing through a flood at Kempsey or some, somewhere at, at, at one stage while either going to school or college or something like that. Oh right. But I,

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I, I never, I, I never,

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and I think probably the last flood and I think probably the last flood

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June and I, it was like just when, it was 1953. June and I, it was like just when, it was 1953.

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'Cause, I know that because we came with our, with our first, first-born son who was probably about seven or eight months old at that stage. Yeah. And we came up to Grafton. The train managed after to struggle through to South Grafton and so it wasn't that, it wasn't a really big flood and I had to leave June and, and, and our baby son 'Cause, I know that because we came with our, with our first, first-born son who was probably about seven or eight months old at that stage. Yeah. And we came up to Grafton. The train managed after to struggle through to South Grafton and so it wasn't that, it wasn't a really big flood and I had to leave June and, and, and our baby son

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there at the station while I walked over, there's no telephones, nothing was going at that stage. Yeah. And I walked over the bridge and sprung a great surprise on my mother. there at the station while I walked over, there's no telephones, nothing was going at that stage. Yeah. And I walked over the bridge and sprung a great surprise on my mother.

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She said: "Your father's 'round at the club. " She said... and there were no phones of course, the phones were all out of order. Yeah. So he got out his old bike and pumped up the tyres and rode around Victoria Street there on the high ground. Yeah. Which is out of floodwater. Gave him a great surprise. It got him out of the bar, got him home, we went home. He had, had the car there, of course. Yeah. So we went to pick, rescue, Go and pick June up at the railway station. [laughter] June at the Railway Station where she was sheltering with a lot of other people. She said: "Your father's 'round at the club. " She said... and there were no phones of course, the phones were all out of order. Yeah. So he got out his old bike and pumped up the tyres and rode around Victoria Street there on the high ground. Yeah. Which is out of floodwater. Gave him a great surprise. It got him out of the bar, got him home, we went home. He had, had the car there, of course. Yeah. So we went to pick, rescue, Go and pick June up at the railway station. [laughter] June at the Railway Station where she was sheltering with a lot of other people.

31:27

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who were stranded 'cause that was as far as the train got, South Grafton was the end of it, was the end of the line at that stage. That's a great anecdote too. [laughter] who were stranded 'cause that was as far as the train got, South Grafton was the end of it, was the end of the line at that stage. That's a great anecdote too. [laughter]

31:38

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And you remember your involvement in the Jacaranda Festival at all, you, you, left school? Look I left Grafton for all intents and purposes at my Intermediate Certificate, which was in 1940... it was 1944. Right. And you remember your involvement in the Jacaranda Festival at all, you, you, left school? Look I left Grafton for all intents and purposes at my Intermediate Certificate, which was in 1940... it was 1944. Right.

31:58

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I, I was drafted into the school, you know, marches and, and, and the school, the mass, the mass things I, I was drafted into the school, you know, marches and, and, and the school, the mass, the mass things

32:08

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upside down and exercise, the physical. Oh that's right. in, in, in Jacaranda Festivals but, uh, upside down and exercise, the physical. Oh that's right. in, in, in Jacaranda Festivals but, uh,

32:18

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no, and I, I, I was very, no, and I, I, I was very,

32:21

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I, I was very young, I, I was very young,

32:24

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in that I, I went to school, in that I, I went to school,

32:28

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I started at the age of 5, which is the usual age, but at Tumut where I went to school I started at the age of 5, which is the usual age, but at Tumut where I went to school

32:35

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there were four rows of people and the, the ones that were considered the brighter went straight up Yeah. straight up into second class and the, and the, the other three classes,- three lots, stayed down there were four rows of people and the, the ones that were considered the brighter went straight up Yeah. straight up into second class and the, and the, the other three classes,- three lots, stayed down

32:50

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and that meant that I spent my entire school life and that meant that I spent my entire school life

32:54

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a year a year

32:56

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[inaudible] [inaudible]

32:58

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sat for the Leaving Certificate at the age of fifteen sat for the Leaving Certificate at the age of fifteen

33:02

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and, uh, I wanted to go to Wesley College and the Master said: "I'm not having anyone that young here, go back to school." Which I did and I repeated and and, uh, I wanted to go to Wesley College and the Master said: "I'm not having anyone that young here, go back to school." Which I did and I repeated and

33:10

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did much, did much better and enjoyed playing rugby and so on, it was. did much, did much better and enjoyed playing rugby and so on, it was.

33:16

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Alright, maybe we should place on record, um, your family. You married June, and she was from Broken Hill? Broken Hill, yes. June? Gregson she was. Gregson, yes. And, well, I had two years of Wesley College, which I played, I played up a bit. Alright, maybe we should place on record, um, your family. You married June, and she was from Broken Hill? Broken Hill, yes. June? Gregson she was. Gregson, yes. And, well, I had two years of Wesley College, which I played, I played up a bit.

33:37

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Not the greatest years of my life Not the greatest years of my life

33:39

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and, uh, the Master got me in one day and he said: "Look, I think that you're not really suited to this style of life. I think it would be better if you found, you looked around for some other place to live." Yeah. and, uh, the Master got me in one day and he said: "Look, I think that you're not really suited to this style of life. I think it would be better if you found, you looked around for some other place to live." Yeah.

33:51

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And so, uh, I thought: "I'll, you know, I'll get a job. So I got, I was going to continue as a, as an evening student. So, so I did that, I got a job, And so, uh, I thought: "I'll, you know, I'll get a job. So I got, I was going to continue as a, as an evening student. So, so I did that, I got a job,

34:05

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the CBC Bank over South Bank. Yeah. So my father took me around to the local bank manager and said, you know, if the bank would take young Dickie. the CBC Bank over South Bank. Yeah. So my father took me around to the local bank manager and said, you know, if the bank would take young Dickie.

34:14

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"Certainly," he said..."that'd be alright." "Certainly," he said..."that'd be alright."

34:17

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So I start, I started as the junior. Yeah. up at the Double Bay branch. Oh, that'd be good. Yeah. of, of the CBC, which I enjoyed Yeah. but, but one of the, one of the chemists, one of the chemists had a very nice young girl who used to come and do the paying in So I start, I started as the junior. Yeah. up at the Double Bay branch. Oh, that'd be good. Yeah. of, of the CBC, which I enjoyed Yeah. but, but one of the, one of the chemists, one of the chemists had a very nice young girl who used to come and do the paying in

34:36

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and I plucked up courage after, after and I plucked up courage after, after

34:41

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about about

34:45

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I thought: "I'm about to be moved and I'll never see this girl again." Yeah. So, I plucked up my courage and asked her out. I thought: "I'm about to be moved and I'll never see this girl again." Yeah. So, I plucked up my courage and asked her out.

34:52

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That was June and the rest is history. [Richard & David laughs] That was June and the rest is history. [Richard & David laughs]

34:58

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And what, what children do you have? We have three sons. Three sons. And what, what children do you have? We have three sons. Three sons.

35:03

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And they are, in? And they are, in?

35:06

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One's in Canada or America, USA? Yes. Uh, our eldest son, John, is, is, uh, he's now got, retirement age, he's just had his fifty fifth birthday, which is just as well, being in Holden's. He's a very senior executive, probably One's in Canada or America, USA? Yes. Uh, our eldest son, John, is, is, uh, he's now got, retirement age, he's just had his fifty fifth birthday, which is just as well, being in Holden's. He's a very senior executive, probably

35:26

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well well

35:27

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he'd probably rank third in G.M.H. Right. He ranks third, he may rank second. But he's very senior executive in, Right. in General Motors Holdings, which he has spent his entire career since Uni, since he graduated. Yeah, right. Like me he did an Economics degree. Yeah. he'd probably rank third in G.M.H. Right. He ranks third, he may rank second. But he's very senior executive in, Right. in General Motors Holdings, which he has spent his entire career since Uni, since he graduated. Yeah, right. Like me he did an Economics degree. Yeah.

35:46

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Our second son is, is Jeffrey, Our second son is, is Jeffrey,

35:49

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who, uh, who, uh,

35:51

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he had, uh, some, he had, uh, some,

35:54

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he had, he had a, uh, he had, he had a, uh,

35:57

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very unhappy time when he, uh, very unhappy time when he, uh,

36:01

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his fiancee, his fiancee,

36:03

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loved her very dearly loved her very dearly

36:06

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uh, uh,

36:08

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basically, basically,

36:10

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Heather had a heart attack and died at the age of nineteen or twenty, Oh. or something like that. It was a terrible blow. Heather had a heart attack and died at the age of nineteen or twenty, Oh. or something like that. It was a terrible blow.

36:18

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He, he, they were incredibly He, he, they were incredibly

36:22

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devoted couple. And we thought we'd better, you know, give, give him something to devoted couple. And we thought we'd better, you know, give, give him something to

36:29

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get him out of this. And so we persuaded him, he'd, he'd done a, he'd done his degree by this time, he'd done a Science Degree. Hmm. And we got him, get him out of this. And so we persuaded him, he'd, he'd done a, he'd done his degree by this time, he'd done a Science Degree. Hmm. And we got him,

36:42

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we arranged for him to go to Canada, uh, to the University of British Columbia and, and, do a Master, for a Masters degree. Oh yeah. Where he got a, got a, got a Tutor's job and one of the people that he was tutoring was a nice young lady. Right. whom, who we arranged for him to go to Canada, uh, to the University of British Columbia and, and, do a Master, for a Masters degree. Oh yeah. Where he got a, got a, got a Tutor's job and one of the people that he was tutoring was a nice young lady. Right. whom, who

37:02

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he married. And now have lived on the West Coast for many years. Yeah. They have two children. We get, they come out to Yamba every, every so often. We see them, shall see them again this Christmas. That's good. We get over there. Yeah. You know, these these days, it's not he married. And now have lived on the West Coast for many years. Yeah. They have two children. We get, they come out to Yamba every, every so often. We see them, shall see them again this Christmas. That's good. We get over there. Yeah. You know, these these days, it's not

37:19

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the other side, you don't you don't lose touch with people in the way, if they went to live in America once that would be the end of it. Yeah, no. There's a lot of there's a lot of trans-Pacific travel goes on now. the other side, you don't you don't lose touch with people in the way, if they went to live in America once that would be the end of it. Yeah, no. There's a lot of there's a lot of trans-Pacific travel goes on now.

37:35

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And your number three son? And your number three son?

37:39

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Our number number three, yes, our number three son, Our number number three, yes, our number three son,

37:45

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Michael, Michael,

37:46

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he's probably, he would be academically the best of them. Oh yes. And he's done a, they've all got Masters Degrees, four Masters Degrees, I think, between the three of them he's probably, he would be academically the best of them. Oh yes. And he's done a, they've all got Masters Degrees, four Masters Degrees, I think, between the three of them

37:57

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and he is now a very senior public servant. He would probably be, when I last heard of it I would say he would be ranking number three in the Defence Department in Canberra. Oh right. and he is now a very senior public servant. He would probably be, when I last heard of it I would say he would be ranking number three in the Defence Department in Canberra. Oh right.

38:10

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And he's in a position which does not allow him to tell us very much about what he's doing. And he's in a position which does not allow him to tell us very much about what he's doing.

38:17

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Fair enough. Fair enough.

38:19

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Yeah. Yeah.

38:21

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Yes, well that's all very interesting and Yes, well that's all very interesting and

38:26

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I think we can wrap it up and on that note and say, you know, thank you very much for your time and I'm sure it'll be much, great interest to many people, I think we can wrap it up and on that note and say, you know, thank you very much for your time and I'm sure it'll be much, great interest to many people,

38:38

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I'm just talking to Richard Scotton again. We've come back on to, we didn't talk about the history of the house in Grafton, and this is one in which Richard's done quite a bit of research, so I'm just talking to Richard Scotton again. We've come back on to, we didn't talk about the history of the house in Grafton, and this is one in which Richard's done quite a bit of research, so

38:52

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Can you just briefly bring us up to date? Or not briefly, go as long as you like. Can you just briefly bring us up to date? Or not briefly, go as long as you like.

38:58

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Oh well, Oh well,

38:59

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the house, the house has a great history, and it's not the first house to be built on the site. the house, the house has a great history, and it's not the first house to be built on the site.

39:07

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It, although it's on the riverbank, it is in fact, I believe, the highest point in Grafton It, although it's on the riverbank, it is in fact, I believe, the highest point in Grafton

39:14

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and it was built by the original surveyor of the town. And he knew all about his heights and where would, where, where, where would he build his house? That was Greaves, wasn't it? Greaves. Where would he build his house in a, in a flood, prone area than, other than the highest point in town, particularly it had a marvellous riverside, riverside situation. Yeah. So. and it was built by the original surveyor of the town. And he knew all about his heights and where would, where, where, where would he build his house? That was Greaves, wasn't it? Greaves. Where would he build his house in a, in a flood, prone area than, other than the highest point in town, particularly it had a marvellous riverside, riverside situation. Yeah. So.

39:41

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When, I must say that when we came to Grafton, When, I must say that when we came to Grafton,

39:45

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in 19' which was in 1939, we, we lived in the, at the top end of Bacon on the corner of Bacon and McHugh Streets, and that was not really considered to be our permanent place. When my when my father came home and said he proposed to acquire Dovedale because he really, if you live in Grafton and you, you had had the means, I mean you'd want to live on the river, wouldn't you? That's right, yes. in 19' which was in 1939, we, we lived in the, at the top end of Bacon on the corner of Bacon and McHugh Streets, and that was not really considered to be our permanent place. When my when my father came home and said he proposed to acquire Dovedale because he really, if you live in Grafton and you, you had had the means, I mean you'd want to live on the river, wouldn't you? That's right, yes.

40:15

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That's, so he, he said that he he'd bought this house. He started, he started, drew up plans for a house on the corner of Bacon Street and Breimba Street, where Schafer's house was That's, so he, he said that he he'd bought this house. He started, he started, drew up plans for a house on the corner of Bacon Street and Breimba Street, where Schafer's house was

40:31

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and then this this came up with the death of of Miss McBride and we were horrified because to us that was a haunted house. Yes, it was all overgrown. Totally overgrown. It had and then this this came up with the death of of Miss McBride and we were horrified because to us that was a haunted house. Yes, it was all overgrown. Totally overgrown. It had

40:44

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shrubs and trees and grass feet high, and this old witch of a lady, which it seemed to us at that age. Yes. Lived by herself and had lived by herself in it. I knew, we knew for a long time, and I've got the found the history of the house. shrubs and trees and grass feet high, and this old witch of a lady, which it seemed to us at that age. Yes. Lived by herself and had lived by herself in it. I knew, we knew for a long time, and I've got the found the history of the house.

41:03

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So we we were quite horrified by it. Yeah. And So we we were quite horrified by it. Yeah. And

41:09

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my father, this was during the war, my father, this was during the war,

41:13

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and it was not a time when doing any substantial rebuilding was, or house remodelling was very easy. So and it was not a time when doing any substantial rebuilding was, or house remodelling was very easy. So

41:24

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the house was the house was

41:26

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somewhat somewhat modified, but not probably, somewhat somewhat modified, but not probably,

41:32

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it was, you know, a lot of, a lot more of the original house remained than might have been otherwise the case but it was a marvelous place. But it it was, the original house was built in 1850. I think it was? We've got a, we've got a written record just given to me, so. it was, you know, a lot of, a lot more of the original house remained than might have been otherwise the case but it was a marvelous place. But it it was, the original house was built in 1850. I think it was? We've got a, we've got a written record just given to me, so.

41:55

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The history of the house, this, this house, probably The history of the house, this, this house, probably

41:58

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it certainly dates back before the, the turn of the century. One of the interesting things that most people wouldn't, wouldn't know. But we it certainly dates back before the, the turn of the century. One of the interesting things that most people wouldn't, wouldn't know. But we

42:09

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used to play under the house quite a bit. There was a lot of room under there when we were kids, Yeah. And there was an enormous hole there used to play under the house quite a bit. There was a lot of room under there when we were kids, Yeah. And there was an enormous hole there

42:16

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that can only have been where an, a huge one of the huge, what were the trees? What did? What sort of forest was it that they? that can only have been where an, a huge one of the huge, what were the trees? What did? What sort of forest was it that they?

42:26

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Cedar. Cedar. It must have been an absolutely enormous, Is that right? cedar tree had been taken out. Yeah. And and this hole, which would be Cedar. Cedar. It must have been an absolutely enormous, Is that right? cedar tree had been taken out. Yeah. And and this hole, which would be

42:39

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twice, twice,

42:41

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imagine, two metres wide. Yes, and and went down, would have been probably four feet. Yeah. So it hadn't been entirely, it must have been a hell of a hole in the first place. It hadn't been completely filled in. Wasn't filled in, yeah. And so that, that, imagine, two metres wide. Yes, and and went down, would have been probably four feet. Yeah. So it hadn't been entirely, it must have been a hell of a hole in the first place. It hadn't been completely filled in. Wasn't filled in, yeah. And so that, that,

42:59

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there's a bit, a bit bit of history there. Yeah, and it was Miss McBride, wasn't it? Miss McBride but it was, it was, it was the house, it was the site selected by the surveyor. It was the high, in the, of what was on the river bank, it was the highest point in town. Yeah. there's a bit, a bit bit of history there. Yeah, and it was Miss McBride, wasn't it? Miss McBride but it was, it was, it was the house, it was the site selected by the surveyor. It was the high, in the, of what was on the river bank, it was the highest point in town. Yeah.

43:18

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That's a good place to buy. That's it. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, that's very interesting. Thanks, thanks a lot for that add-on. That's a good place to buy. That's it. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, that's very interesting. Thanks, thanks a lot for that add-on.

43:26

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Thank you very much. Thanks very much. Nice to see you, nice to see you again David. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thanks very much. Nice to see you, nice to see you again David. Yeah.

43:32

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Choose A Speaker
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Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)

Choose A Speaker
(only necessary when speaker changes)