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Transcription Conventions		Examples
Language	English (Australian)	“Colour” not “Color”, “Organise” not “Organize”
Contractions	Transcribe as you hear them	“Shoulda”, “Didn’t”
Numbers	Transcribe as numerals	“11 West 40th Street”
Filled Pauses & Hesitations	Transcribe as you hear them	“ah”, “eh”, “um”
Noise	Transcribe in brackets; use descriptive language	“And then we [door slam]”, “So cold! [Brrrrr]”
Partial words	If someone stops speaking in the middle of a word, transcribe as much of the word as they say; follow it with a dash	“Tes- Testing”, “Absolu- Absolutely”
Hard-to-understand	For speech that is difficult or impossible to understand, use question marks before and after	“And she told me that ?I should just leave?”, “Her name was ?inaudible?”
Truncated Words	Sometimes words may seem to be repeated from the end of one line to the start of the next. Transcribe these as you hear them and use your best judgment

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0:01

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OK, so that's, that's rolling now. So, um, just for the purposes of the tape, I'd just like to identify myself. My name is Aaron Pegram, I'm sitting here with with John Wherry, who served with, first with 90 Squadron and 196 Squadron in RF, in in the RAF, and we're talking about his service in both of those squadrons and also his experiences in captivity in Germany. And, um, where, it's the 20th of March 2010. OK, so that's, that's rolling now. So, um, just for the purposes of the tape, I'd just like to identify myself. My name is Aaron Pegram, I'm sitting here with with John Wherry, who served with, first with 90 Squadron and 196 Squadron in RF, in in the RAF, and we're talking about his service in both of those squadrons and also his experiences in captivity in Germany. And, um, where, it's the 20th of March 2010.

0:32

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[Aaron] This is the second interview I've done with John and we're here at his residence in, in Henley, in Sydney. So John thank you very much for for having me here again. [John] Thank you for that introduction. [Aaron] This is the second interview I've done with John and we're here at his residence in, in Henley, in Sydney. So John thank you very much for for having me here again. [John] Thank you for that introduction.

0:45

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One of the things that um I always start interviews off with um talking about so pre-war experiences as well. One of the things that um I always start interviews off with um talking about so pre-war experiences as well.

0:54

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We went into this. There's probably going to be overlap with the earlier interview, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, so We went into this. There's probably going to be overlap with the earlier interview, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, so

1:03

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To start off with, can you... what can you tell me about your pre-war experiences? Whereabouts did you grow up and whereabouts were you... did you go to school? To start off with, can you... what can you tell me about your pre-war experiences? Whereabouts did you grow up and whereabouts were you... did you go to school?

1:10

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Yes, umm I was born in Sydney, Australia. In fact, Ashfield, Sydney, Australia. Yes, umm I was born in Sydney, Australia. In fact, Ashfield, Sydney, Australia.

1:17

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in 1923 in 1923

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and by way of coincidence, Aaron, I was in Ashfield only two days ago. and by way of coincidence, Aaron, I was in Ashfield only two days ago.

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My son was in Ashfield Hospital having a hernia operation and we had a few minutes and I said "I was born within a stone's throw of this hospital Peter" and he said "oh, can we have a look?" So we turned around from Victoria Street Ashfield to Queen Street Ashfield to 127 Queen Street Ashfield and there still My son was in Ashfield Hospital having a hernia operation and we had a few minutes and I said "I was born within a stone's throw of this hospital Peter" and he said "oh, can we have a look?" So we turned around from Victoria Street Ashfield to Queen Street Ashfield to 127 Queen Street Ashfield and there still

1:51

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[John] 80 years later is the same houses, we left when I was seven. [Aaron] Really. [John] 80 years later is the same houses, we left when I was seven. [Aaron] Really.

1:58

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still standing- only just- a few bits have fallen off, but it was still there. An old house at 127 still standing- only just- a few bits have fallen off, but it was still there. An old house at 127

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Queen Street Ashfield, anyway, that's digressing, but that's where I was born. Queen Street Ashfield, anyway, that's digressing, but that's where I was born.

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Due to umm, depression in 1929, Due to umm, depression in 1929,

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my father, who was a carpenter in the, my father, who was a carpenter in the,

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home builder really couldn't, home builder really couldn't,

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get a job and we bought a poultry farm at Castle Hill and I grew up there for the next five or six years. get a job and we bought a poultry farm at Castle Hill and I grew up there for the next five or six years.

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It was a very countrified Castle Hill in those days. It was a very countrified Castle Hill in those days.

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But finally, coming back to Sydney. But finally, coming back to Sydney.

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And umm went to Crows Nest High School. And umm went to Crows Nest High School.

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And umm And umm

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then then

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entered umm the workforce, working for the forerunner of Telstra, the PMG Department, entered umm the workforce, working for the forerunner of Telstra, the PMG Department,

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before I before I

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had this longing to join had this longing to join

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up because the war had started and up because the war had started and

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I wanted to join up and umm, I wanted to join up and umm,

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Aaron asked me last time "why the Air Force?" and umm I, ah, Aaron asked me last time "why the Air Force?" and umm I, ah,

3:16

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I think I felt some sort of affinity that way. I think I felt some sort of affinity that way.

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And then my friend umm, Les Witchard, he and I both wanted to join the Air Force and And then my friend umm, Les Witchard, he and I both wanted to join the Air Force and

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we did join together and because we were both W's. we did join together and because we were both W's.

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therefore, our service numbers were consecutive. therefore, our service numbers were consecutive.

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So Les and I eventually became So Les and I eventually became

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Air Force reservists. Air Force reservists.

3:49

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[John] Carrying around a little badge on your, on your suit, that you were in the Air Force Reserve- couldn't take us all at the one time. [Aaron] So just, just before you go any further John, why, you talked before about you felt an affinity towards the Air Force, [John] Carrying around a little badge on your, on your suit, that you were in the Air Force Reserve- couldn't take us all at the one time. [Aaron] So just, just before you go any further John, why, you talked before about you felt an affinity towards the Air Force,

4:05

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Why, why was that? Why? Why not the the navy or the army? Why the Air Force, do you think? Why, why was that? Why? Why not the the navy or the army? Why the Air Force, do you think?

4:12

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Well, it sounds a bit simplistic in hindsight, but I had a bicycle and I felt I could throw that bicycle around. I could do anything with that bike. I could ride no hands, I could ride one Well, it sounds a bit simplistic in hindsight, but I had a bicycle and I felt I could throw that bicycle around. I could do anything with that bike. I could ride no hands, I could ride one

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wheel and throw it around and I felt that's the sort of thing that Spitfire pilots have got to be able to do. Just be part of the machine and I felt I was part of my bike and I think that was one of the, um, wheel and throw it around and I felt that's the sort of thing that Spitfire pilots have got to be able to do. Just be part of the machine and I felt I was part of my bike and I think that was one of the, um,

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incentives that I thought - I think I could do the same thing with a fighter, and that's why I wanted to be a fighter pilot. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] Clearly thinking back. incentives that I thought - I think I could do the same thing with a fighter, and that's why I wanted to be a fighter pilot. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] Clearly thinking back.

4:55

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However, of course everybody wanted to be a fighter pilot or wanted to be a pilot, and However, of course everybody wanted to be a fighter pilot or wanted to be a pilot, and

5:03

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the categorisation board, ah, heard that my previous experience had been with the categorisation board, ah, heard that my previous experience had been with

5:09

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telephones and wireless ah telephones and wireless ah

5:12

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they categorised me as a wireless-operated air gunner. So ah... what what do you think your parents sort of attitudes towards you joining the Air Force were because your father had served in the Light Horse during the First World War and I'd assume he'd know a thing or two about what it was... what an infantryman's sort of war would have been like? they categorised me as a wireless-operated air gunner. So ah... what what do you think your parents sort of attitudes towards you joining the Air Force were because your father had served in the Light Horse during the First World War and I'd assume he'd know a thing or two about what it was... what an infantryman's sort of war would have been like?

5:32

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Yes, I don't think I got any direction from my parents though Aaron, I think, um, Yes, I don't think I got any direction from my parents though Aaron, I think, um,

5:38

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Well, I wasn't living at home at that time. We'd sort of had moved to the country and I was living with an aunt and didn't have any guidance or pushing one way or the other. I'd just Well, I wasn't living at home at that time. We'd sort of had moved to the country and I was living with an aunt and didn't have any guidance or pushing one way or the other. I'd just

5:52

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I wasn't too keen on the Navy or the Army. I just liked the Air Force, really. [Aaron] Fantastic. [John] And I think in hindsight I- I made the right decision. I wasn't too keen on the Navy or the Army. I just liked the Air Force, really. [Aaron] Fantastic. [John] And I think in hindsight I- I made the right decision.

6:03

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So we joined up and, um, So we joined up and, um,

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our first, er, our first, er,

6:08

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course we went to our course we went to our

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And then to um And then to um

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Parkes for the Wireless operator training and then to Parkes for the Wireless operator training and then to

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?2 bags, not rags?. ?2 bags, not rags?.

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To Port Pirie for Gunnery. To Port Pirie for Gunnery.

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And before we knew where we were after that, we were, found ourselves on the US And before we knew where we were after that, we were, found ourselves on the US

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passenger ship converted to a troopship and took five or six hundred of us Air Force people straight away off to passenger ship converted to a troopship and took five or six hundred of us Air Force people straight away off to

6:52

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[John] well, Europe, ah, USA. [Aaron] Just before we get to the USA, what, so, what sort of training were you doing at Bradford and Parkes? Like, you- I'd imagine you were doing some initial, ah, like, flight training?What- what sort of aircraft were you, were you flying in and what sort of training were you doing? Were you firing at- were you, as as in gunnery school were you firing at stationary targets or aerial targets? [John] Well, at Parkes we were [John] well, Europe, ah, USA. [Aaron] Just before we get to the USA, what, so, what sort of training were you doing at Bradford and Parkes? Like, you- I'd imagine you were doing some initial, ah, like, flight training?What- what sort of aircraft were you, were you flying in and what sort of training were you doing? Were you firing at- were you, as as in gunnery school were you firing at stationary targets or aerial targets? [John] Well, at Parkes we were

7:22

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Morse code really, ah, in Morse code really, ah, in

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In an office, but then we had to do so many hours, I don't think that many, 20 hours or something of flying Wacketts, I think they were. In an office, but then we had to do so many hours, I don't think that many, 20 hours or something of flying Wacketts, I think they were.

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Sending messages on Morse code from Sending messages on Morse code from

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a - an aircraft. Which on a hot day were fairly bumpy, sort of little aircraft and would often take off at dawn so that, before the a - an aircraft. Which on a hot day were fairly bumpy, sort of little aircraft and would often take off at dawn so that, before the

7:51

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heat bumps sort of started throwing these little planes around. heat bumps sort of started throwing these little planes around.

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And, um, then when we went to our gunnery course in South Australia, Port Pirie. And, um, then when we went to our gunnery course in South Australia, Port Pirie.

8:04

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Fairey Battles I think were the aircraft that, um, Fairey Battles I think were the aircraft that, um,

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probably we, we flew in and I think the drogues that were towed, that we had to shoot at were um probably we, we flew in and I think the drogues that were towed, that we had to shoot at were um

8:17

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also, Fairey Battles really. also, Fairey Battles really.

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They'd go past at a, They'd go past at a,

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a certain speed and you had to try and hit the drogue and, ah, a certain speed and you had to try and hit the drogue and, ah,

8:28

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Sound based ?supers?. I know I have in my logbook and exceptional shooter, but when we were kids we used to go shooting rabbits alot and if a rabbit was running you had to judge the lead time to shoot ahead of him or you wouldn't hit him and the same applied to these aircraft that went across your vision, you had to lead ahead to hit the the drogue and Sound based ?supers?. I know I have in my logbook and exceptional shooter, but when we were kids we used to go shooting rabbits alot and if a rabbit was running you had to judge the lead time to shoot ahead of him or you wouldn't hit him and the same applied to these aircraft that went across your vision, you had to lead ahead to hit the the drogue and

8:54

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[John] I feel I did excel there because of my shooting rabbits, on the lead. And - [Aaron] Yeah, the the the Fairey Battle had a quite unfortunate sort of service career during, during the Battle of Britain and mainly because of that turret, that, that rear turret. Yeah. [John] I know it was not that popular aircraft. [Aaron] Nah, not at all. [John] I feel I did excel there because of my shooting rabbits, on the lead. And - [Aaron] Yeah, the the the Fairey Battle had a quite unfortunate sort of service career during, during the Battle of Britain and mainly because of that turret, that, that rear turret. Yeah. [John] I know it was not that popular aircraft. [Aaron] Nah, not at all.

9:17

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Yeah, there was something with the - about the mechanism, although there was a sort of, um, Yeah, there was something with the - about the mechanism, although there was a sort of, um,

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Yeah, the mechanism in there, but which which rotated the turret was was - was quite Yeah, the mechanism in there, but which which rotated the turret was was - was quite

9:28

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[Aaron] quite difficult to manoeuvre in combat, but for training purposes, of course, it didn't sort of feel, [John] It didn't seem a problem. [Aaron] Yeah? [Aaron] quite difficult to manoeuvre in combat, but for training purposes, of course, it didn't sort of feel, [John] It didn't seem a problem. [Aaron] Yeah?

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So that was that and then we, as I say, moved on to getting into the So that was that and then we, as I say, moved on to getting into the

9:43

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European war zone, like, I think most people we were pleased we weren't going to the European war zone, like, I think most people we were pleased we weren't going to the

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Japanese, well, the Japanese war wasn't on. Well, it probably was by then. Japanese, well, the Japanese war wasn't on. Well, it probably was by then.

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Well, you're, we've got your your logbook here. Well, you're, we've got your your logbook here.

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And And

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It says that, that you qualified by 1943, April 1943 from the second, um, Wireless Operating It says that, that you qualified by 1943, April 1943 from the second, um, Wireless Operating

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[Aaron] School. So yeah, you would have, you would have - by the time you'd got to Europe the Pacific War would have, would have been in its full throes. [John] That's right, yes. [Aaron] Yeah. [Aaron] School. So yeah, you would have, you would have - by the time you'd got to Europe the Pacific War would have, would have been in its full throes. [John] That's right, yes. [Aaron] Yeah.

10:21

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Anyway, I think, um, fighting a war in Europe was, um, a little bit more civilized than up in the islands and more comfortable. We would, ah, Anyway, I think, um, fighting a war in Europe was, um, a little bit more civilized than up in the islands and more comfortable. We would, ah,

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when we did get into flying into Germany, you'd come back to eggs and bacon for breakfast and a comfortable, clean warm bed. when we did get into flying into Germany, you'd come back to eggs and bacon for breakfast and a comfortable, clean warm bed.

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Whereas up in the Pacific Islands, you would be very lucky to have those amenities when you flew off from an airfield in Whereas up in the Pacific Islands, you would be very lucky to have those amenities when you flew off from an airfield in

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some remote island. some remote island.

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So when, once you arrived in England through the United States, actually just to back- So when, once you arrived in England through the United States, actually just to back-

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backtrack there a bit, but did you, as a member of the Empire Training scheme, did you spend any time in Canada? backtrack there a bit, but did you, as a member of the Empire Training scheme, did you spend any time in Canada?

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Not at all? [John] No. [Aaron] Okay. Not at all? [John] No. [Aaron] Okay.

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So once you, once you - you arrived in, in England from through the United States, um, So once you, once you - you arrived in, in England from through the United States, um,

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you, you went to an operat- operational training unit? you, you went to an operat- operational training unit?

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I remember we went to a little, um, airfield in Scotland. We landed at Greenwich which is a I remember we went to a little, um, airfield in Scotland. We landed at Greenwich which is a

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pretty Little, ah, port, just a port, well of Glasgow really. pretty Little, ah, port, just a port, well of Glasgow really.

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One of my first memories was, this is wartime England, and as soon as we got off the boat there were a lot of ladies armed with cups of tea. One of my first memories was, this is wartime England, and as soon as we got off the boat there were a lot of ladies armed with cups of tea.

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?Will? you know? ?Will? you know?

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What you'd expect in England, really. [Laughter] These ladies wanted to give us all a cup of tea. What you'd expect in England, really. [Laughter] These ladies wanted to give us all a cup of tea.

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Which was a nice little gesture. That was the first contact we had with anybody in the UK at that, that day. Went to West ?through? which was a little, um Which was a nice little gesture. That was the first contact we had with anybody in the UK at that, that day. Went to West ?through? which was a little, um

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field in field in

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The East, West Coast of Scotland. The East, West Coast of Scotland.

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Then we went, I think to OTU Then we went, I think to OTU

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in England and in England and

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started our training. started our training.

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[John] in Wellingtons I think. [Aaron] So by that time you, you knew that you were well and truly - your your op- your your time you know for fight- you know serving in Fighter Command was sort of nipped in the bud so to speak yeah? [John] Very much so, yes. It was quite obvious we weren't going to be flying around in Spitfires. [Aaron] Yes. [John] So we did our OT- operational training unit in [John] in Wellingtons I think. [Aaron] So by that time you, you knew that you were well and truly - your your op- your your time you know for fight- you know serving in Fighter Command was sort of nipped in the bud so to speak yeah? [John] Very much so, yes. It was quite obvious we weren't going to be flying around in Spitfires. [Aaron] Yes. [John] So we did our OT- operational training unit in

12:53

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Wellingtons and then we had to form a Wellingtons and then we had to form a

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crew, and fortunately there was an Australian pilot crew, and fortunately there was an Australian pilot

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wandering around looking for a wireless operator. wandering around looking for a wireless operator.

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And we talked for a while and agreed that we'd like to fly together. And that's how I met my pilot, Keith Proud, who is, like myself, still alive, but the only two of our crew that are still alive. Keith lives in Queensland, Australia now. And we talked for a while and agreed that we'd like to fly together. And that's how I met my pilot, Keith Proud, who is, like myself, still alive, but the only two of our crew that are still alive. Keith lives in Queensland, Australia now.

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But we also had a South African engineer who was killed when we were shot down in Holland later, But we also had a South African engineer who was killed when we were shot down in Holland later,

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A Canadian rear gunner who survived our crash, A Canadian rear gunner who survived our crash,

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English navigator, Mike Powder-Hill. English navigator, Mike Powder-Hill.

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He too was killed when we were shot down. And our He too was killed when we were shot down. And our

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bomb aimer, Reg Gibbs, another Canadian, and he was killed, shot at coming down, and died in Holland. bomb aimer, Reg Gibbs, another Canadian, and he was killed, shot at coming down, and died in Holland.

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So that was our crew and, um, we moved onto So that was our crew and, um, we moved onto

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fly fly

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Verify

[John] Sterling's, I think they were mark two? oh [mumbling] [Aaron] Mark two or mark three? i'm certa-, your logbook certainly makes reference to a mark three before you upgraded to a four, which is when, what you were flying when you were at 196. But certainly when you were at 90 Squadron you were, you were flying mark threes. [John] Yes, and [John] Sterling's, I think they were mark two? oh [mumbling] [Aaron] Mark two or mark three? i'm certa-, your logbook certainly makes reference to a mark three before you upgraded to a four, which is when, what you were flying when you were at 196. But certainly when you were at 90 Squadron you were, you were flying mark threes. [John] Yes, and

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poor old Sterling's came under a lot of criticism by a lot of people, particularly Lancaster people. poor old Sterling's came under a lot of criticism by a lot of people, particularly Lancaster people.

14:45

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And of course they were superior at, ah, And of course they were superior at, ah,

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Verify

[John] greater heights than ours, but I think the Stirling carried a bigger bomb load than Lancasters. I'm not one hundred percent sure- [Aaron] I think certainly at the time in which the Stirling came into operational use, it carried the largest bomb load. Because at the time you had [John] greater heights than ours, but I think the Stirling carried a bigger bomb load than Lancasters. I'm not one hundred percent sure- [Aaron] I think certainly at the time in which the Stirling came into operational use, it carried the largest bomb load. Because at the time you had

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Halifax's, Halifax's,

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Wellingtons, you had a whole array of medium bombers, and by the time the Stirling sort of rolled off the production line and started raiding Germany, they were the largest aircraft that we could muster at the time. But of course, you know, that sort of was - Wellingtons, you had a whole array of medium bombers, and by the time the Stirling sort of rolled off the production line and started raiding Germany, they were the largest aircraft that we could muster at the time. But of course, you know, that sort of was -

15:28

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Lancasters came in from late 1942 onwards and Lancasters came in from late 1942 onwards and

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[John] Bigger, faster, [Aaron] That's right. [John] higher. [Aaron] and perhaps more romantic? [John] Bigger, faster, [Aaron] That's right. [John] higher. [Aaron] and perhaps more romantic?

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[Aaron] They were a good, they're good-looking aircraft whereas Stirling I can't say it's a very good-looking aircraft at all [Laughing]. [John] No, in hindsight, looking at them today they look a lumbering old girl and, um, certainly look old on the, of course today's standards, but the Lancaster as you say, was a pretty bomber in its own way. [Aaron] They were a good, they're good-looking aircraft whereas Stirling I can't say it's a very good-looking aircraft at all [Laughing]. [John] No, in hindsight, looking at them today they look a lumbering old girl and, um, certainly look old on the, of course today's standards, but the Lancaster as you say, was a pretty bomber in its own way.

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The view would be shared by the German The view would be shared by the German

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[John] people, but. [Aaron] No, that's very true. Yeah. What was it like to fly in the Stirling? Like, you said it was a lumbering, it looked like a lumbering old girl, but did it handle, do you think it handled like a very, very difficult? Was it very difficult to to fly? [John] people, but. [Aaron] No, that's very true. Yeah. What was it like to fly in the Stirling? Like, you said it was a lumbering, it looked like a lumbering old girl, but did it handle, do you think it handled like a very, very difficult? Was it very difficult to to fly?

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I think it was a little bit, but, um, pilots seemed to grow to love Stirlings and once they got used to one or two little idiosyncrasies, I think they were very popular with, um, with pilots. I think it was a little bit, but, um, pilots seemed to grow to love Stirlings and once they got used to one or two little idiosyncrasies, I think they were very popular with, um, with pilots.

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That's my knowledge, but as a wireless operator I can't speak first hand. That's my knowledge, but as a wireless operator I can't speak first hand.

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But, um - But, um -

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as far as we were concerned, as a wireless operator, they were very comfortable. as far as we were concerned, as a wireless operator, they were very comfortable.

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We had a good seat and underneath the seat was three inches of We had a good seat and underneath the seat was three inches of

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thick steel, which was very comforting once or twice when the, um thick steel, which was very comforting once or twice when the, um

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flack was coming up flack was coming up

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with tracer bullets that looked like a Christmas tree, uh, with tracer bullets that looked like a Christmas tree, uh,

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you would sit down on your seat and be grateful you had three inches- [Aaron] Yes! [John] -of steel under you. you would sit down on your seat and be grateful you had three inches- [Aaron] Yes! [John] -of steel under you.

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[John] It was always warm, it was, it was a nice, comfortable aircraft as far as I was concerned. [Aaron] Sure. [John] No rear gunner would say any aircraft was comfortable when they were flying out in the fresh air with, um, their turret at the same temperature as the outside. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] It was always warm, it was, it was a nice, comfortable aircraft as far as I was concerned. [Aaron] Sure. [John] No rear gunner would say any aircraft was comfortable when they were flying out in the fresh air with, um, their turret at the same temperature as the outside. [Aaron] Yeah.

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[John] 20 or 30 degrees. [Aaron] Also read just recently that, um, that some- some rear Gunners would remove part of the Perspex on their, on their turret so that they could actually, they could easily see nightfighters um they had that little bit of an edge on, on picking out nightfighters through the dark. [John] Sure. [John] 20 or 30 degrees. [Aaron] Also read just recently that, um, that some- some rear Gunners would remove part of the Perspex on their, on their turret so that they could actually, they could easily see nightfighters um they had that little bit of an edge on, on picking out nightfighters through the dark. [John] Sure.

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But at the expense, of course, of their comfort. But at the expense, of course, of their comfort.

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[John] Fresh air whizzing through their turret, [laughing] even with electric heating suits, I think they could still get frostbite if they weren't careful, if they were unlucky. [Aaron] Thats right [John] Fresh air whizzing through their turret, [laughing] even with electric heating suits, I think they could still get frostbite if they weren't careful, if they were unlucky. [Aaron] Thats right

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Yes, they Yes, they

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[John] Didn't have an enviable job in the crew of any bomber going over Germany in the winter time. [Aaron] That's right. Now, having a look through your photo album, there's a photograph of yourself and, um, what I think you referred to as your baby, your radio set, so you obviously developed a bit of a relationship with some of the equipment that you were operating in Sterling's. [John] Didn't have an enviable job in the crew of any bomber going over Germany in the winter time. [Aaron] That's right. Now, having a look through your photo album, there's a photograph of yourself and, um, what I think you referred to as your baby, your radio set, so you obviously developed a bit of a relationship with some of the equipment that you were operating in Sterling's.

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Yes, I guess so. Yes, I guess so.

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In hindsight, very antiquated, of course, but In hindsight, very antiquated, of course, but

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they were seeming to me, from memory, that was a very good unit. We never had any trouble. We got messages as far away as the Kiel Canal right into Germany, ah, you'd get a message they were seeming to me, from memory, that was a very good unit. We never had any trouble. We got messages as far away as the Kiel Canal right into Germany, ah, you'd get a message

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For some reason, or rather, you could For some reason, or rather, you could

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we of course had radio silence. We wouldn't touch a key unless you were sending an SOS or something. we of course had radio silence. We wouldn't touch a key unless you were sending an SOS or something.

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[John]So, I- I think we were very well equipped for radio transmission and receiving. [Aaron] And you were, you were saying before that the Sterlings were equipped with G? [John] Yes, [Aaron] As opposed to H2S. [John] Yes. The navigator ?attally? had H2S and [John]So, I- I think we were very well equipped for radio transmission and receiving. [Aaron] And you were, you were saying before that the Sterlings were equipped with G? [John] Yes, [Aaron] As opposed to H2S. [John] Yes. The navigator ?attally? had H2S and

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seemed to be a very good backup for his seemed to be a very good backup for his

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Astro Navigation et cetera. Astro Navigation et cetera.

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[John] Wasn't really my Department, but, ah, that was what came into play at that time. It was a bonus in navigating. [Aaron] Sure. [John] Wasn't really my Department, but, ah, that was what came into play at that time. It was a bonus in navigating. [Aaron] Sure.

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I don't recall the Germans finding an antidote to I don't recall the Germans finding an antidote to

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G, uh, to H2S. G, uh, to H2S.

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To every new system that came into play, the opponents would find a, something to To every new system that came into play, the opponents would find a, something to

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[John] help denigrate it. [Aaron] Did, just on that on that the scientific aspects of the war. We you, did you ever fly or had to drop window? [John] help denigrate it. [Aaron] Did, just on that on that the scientific aspects of the war. We you, did you ever fly or had to drop window?

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Yes, first few trips were dropping window, tinsel, silver paper to detract the, um, radar and Yes, first few trips were dropping window, tinsel, silver paper to detract the, um, radar and

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making contact with searchlights and all the rest of it. I think it was beneficial if we could mess up their tracking. making contact with searchlights and all the rest of it. I think it was beneficial if we could mess up their tracking.

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A pretty simple sort of thing, just throwing out packets of, um, silver paper, and they would flatter down tens of thousands of them, which obviously A pretty simple sort of thing, just throwing out packets of, um, silver paper, and they would flatter down tens of thousands of them, which obviously

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would give some incorrect readings for radar. would give some incorrect readings for radar.

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[Aaron] And hide the bomber stream too-, [John] Oh yes, [Aaron] -it's a disguise the bomber stream. [John] Wouldn't know if there's a hundred or twenty. [Aaron] That's right, yes. Yes, yes, OK. [Aaron] And hide the bomber stream too-, [John] Oh yes, [Aaron] -it's a disguise the bomber stream. [John] Wouldn't know if there's a hundred or twenty. [Aaron] That's right, yes. Yes, yes, OK.

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So, um, from then on So, um, from then on

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we, we trained, we, we trained,

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prelude to, uh, D-day we were training glider pilots and prelude to, uh, D-day we were training glider pilots and

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a lot of our work was taking off and landing with a lot of our work was taking off and landing with

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gliders and paratroop dropping et cetera. gliders and paratroop dropping et cetera.

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And, um, And, um,

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in the interim, we were taking, um, supplies to the French Underground and Sterlings were ideal for that sort of thing. They had low, good low level capabilities and in the interim, we were taking, um, supplies to the French Underground and Sterlings were ideal for that sort of thing. They had low, good low level capabilities and

21:52

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and moon light, full moon light times we'd go almost to Switzerland dropping and moon light, full moon light times we'd go almost to Switzerland dropping

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in a little field in a little field

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[John] supplies to the French Underground and sometimes ah, a French spy as well. [Aaron] Oh really? [John] It's, a drop a paratrooper who would [John] supplies to the French Underground and sometimes ah, a French spy as well. [Aaron] Oh really? [John] It's, a drop a paratrooper who would

22:10

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be a Frenchman to be, joined the French Underground. be a Frenchman to be, joined the French Underground.

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The Maquis and, um, The Maquis and, um,

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I do remember once we went within sight of the I do remember once we went within sight of the

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the Swiss border. You could see the bright lights of Switzerland, but we couldn't see the signal which we had to get from the field below us, which was a torch light flashing a letter. the Swiss border. You could see the bright lights of Switzerland, but we couldn't see the signal which we had to get from the field below us, which was a torch light flashing a letter.

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It didn't come, which meant we had to return to Britain with all our It didn't come, which meant we had to return to Britain with all our

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[John] panniers full of ammunition, full of guns and et cetera for the Underground and bring it all back. [Aaron] Right. [John] Which of course, [John] panniers full of ammunition, full of guns and et cetera for the Underground and bring it all back. [Aaron] Right. [John] Which of course,

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[John] The French knew the Germans were there and, ah, would have only confiscated them, and probably all get killed in the bargain. [Aaron] Yes. [John] So you just didn't drop it somewhere, if you didn't get the requisite signal. [John] The French knew the Germans were there and, ah, would have only confiscated them, and probably all get killed in the bargain. [Aaron] Yes. [John] So you just didn't drop it somewhere, if you didn't get the requisite signal.

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It's quite interesting looking through your log book, in which these, ah, it's mentioned that it says that it was, ah, It's quite interesting looking through your log book, in which these, ah, it's mentioned that it says that it was, ah,

23:14

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the operation or the sortie had been scrubbed or had been cancelled. the operation or the sortie had been scrubbed or had been cancelled.

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[Aaron] I, yeah, there or it was it actually there was some mark of the success of the operation next to next to its entry. [John] Right. [Aaron] And of course, there's no, there's no mention as to where the operation was. It was just France. [John] Yes. [Aaron] Yeah, it's always France. [John] Yes, always France for the French Underground. [Aaron] What was it- what was it like doing, doing, ah, runs to France, 'cause I've heard them- in your last interview you referred to [Aaron] I, yeah, there or it was it actually there was some mark of the success of the operation next to next to its entry. [John] Right. [Aaron] And of course, there's no, there's no mention as to where the operation was. It was just France. [John] Yes. [Aaron] Yeah, it's always France. [John] Yes, always France for the French Underground. [Aaron] What was it- what was it like doing, doing, ah, runs to France, 'cause I've heard them- in your last interview you referred to

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some of those operations is a piece of cake, and I've also thought- referred, heard them referred to as a milk run. Would you? Would you still hold that view? some of those operations is a piece of cake, and I've also thought- referred, heard them referred to as a milk run. Would you? Would you still hold that view?

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Yes, I- I think, thinking of the low level flights we did Yes, I- I think, thinking of the low level flights we did

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we could see in the, of course in the bright moon light your eyes get accustomed, and you had good young eyes in those days, you see every farm house and very often you'd get V for victory. Little flashes from people that knew who you were, and you'd get a V for victory sign. we could see in the, of course in the bright moon light your eyes get accustomed, and you had good young eyes in those days, you see every farm house and very often you'd get V for victory. Little flashes from people that knew who you were, and you'd get a V for victory sign.

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We did strike, we sort of We did strike, we sort of

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the V1 I think they were called, the 1st unmanned German the V1 I think they were called, the 1st unmanned German

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Drague. Drague.

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German German

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bomb, bombs that, at ?worst?. bomb, bombs that, at ?worst?.

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[John] flying to London. That passed us on the way through once, it was a bit of a surprise to see. [Aaron] Yeah, yes. [John] flying to London. That passed us on the way through once, it was a bit of a surprise to see. [Aaron] Yeah, yes.

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And occasionally there might be some soldier take a potshot at us. When we were so low, but never in the risk of being hit with just an odd rifle shot when you're only 500 feet up, but-. Yeah, I'd imagine that flying those low level runs, you would have been flying under the noses of German night fighters also. Yes, never never had any And occasionally there might be some soldier take a potshot at us. When we were so low, but never in the risk of being hit with just an odd rifle shot when you're only 500 feet up, but-. Yeah, I'd imagine that flying those low level runs, you would have been flying under the noses of German night fighters also. Yes, never never had any

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[John] expectation from night fighters, [Aaron] Yeah. [John] never ever saw one on those low level flights. [Aaron] When you were when you were doing those low level runs, 'cause of course as an aerial gunner - you were an aerial gunner as well, were you, you would have been manning your- your turret at that time, no? [John] No. [John] expectation from night fighters, [Aaron] Yeah. [John] never ever saw one on those low level flights. [Aaron] When you were when you were doing those low level runs, 'cause of course as an aerial gunner - you were an aerial gunner as well, were you, you would have been manning your- your turret at that time, no? [John] No.

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Stirlings only had the rear turret in those days, we never had a second turret Stirlings only had the rear turret in those days, we never had a second turret

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that I would have used, that I would have used,

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And their Gunner. And their Gunner.

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[John] never ever did fly in the turret. [Aaron] Right? right. [John] never ever did fly in the turret. [Aaron] Right? right.

25:48

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I think the early, er, early Stirlings had a mid upper turret. I think the early, er, early Stirlings had a mid upper turret.

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I'm not sure, but I think they might have. I'm not sure, but I think they might have.

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The turret the Astro dome was the only thing in the, in the middle of the aircraft which the Navigator would take his The turret the Astro dome was the only thing in the, in the middle of the aircraft which the Navigator would take his

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sights, shots from. sights, shots from.

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Um, so then after that D- day was coming along and we knew would be busy there and we were really one of the first people to Um, so then after that D- day was coming along and we knew would be busy there and we were really one of the first people to

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go into go into

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The French coast about 2:00 AM in the morning before any The French coast about 2:00 AM in the morning before any

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sea vessels landed. sea vessels landed.

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They were dropping paratroopers to hold a canal. I think it was called the ?Orne? canal. They were dropping paratroopers to hold a canal. I think it was called the ?Orne? canal.

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For some strategic reason to keep the canal For some strategic reason to keep the canal

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open for, to allow the troops to expand off the beachheads. open for, to allow the troops to expand off the beachheads.

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And, um, we dropped those at 2:00 AM in the morning, and we certainly saw some tracer bullets coming up at us that day. It was And, um, we dropped those at 2:00 AM in the morning, and we certainly saw some tracer bullets coming up at us that day. It was

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very bright with the tracer everywhere. very bright with the tracer everywhere.

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[John] But I don't think we had a bullet hole in our whole aircraft when we got back. [Aaron] Really? [John] I can't recall, I think we found there wasn't one. [Aaron] Gee, that's amazing. [John] But I don't think we had a bullet hole in our whole aircraft when we got back. [Aaron] Really? [John] I can't recall, I think we found there wasn't one. [Aaron] Gee, that's amazing.

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[John] Somewhere I think my pilot, Keith, counted 6 or something, but I don't think it was that night, but it may have been. [Aaron] Right. [John] Somewhere I think my pilot, Keith, counted 6 or something, but I don't think it was that night, but it may have been. [Aaron] Right.

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Then a few days later we had to Then a few days later we had to

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re-supply these paratroopers a couple of days later. They were still away from the main re-supply these paratroopers a couple of days later. They were still away from the main

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western western

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beachfront, beach. beachfront, beach.

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Sea- sea arriving troops were landing. Sea- sea arriving troops were landing.

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And we had to go through our own And we had to go through our own

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balloon barrage to resupply these paratroopers, which was one of the most nerve wracking things that I think we ever did during the war. You could see the balloon barrage, balloons above us, knowing that at least one cable coming down and a few other stray cables sometimes. balloon barrage to resupply these paratroopers, which was one of the most nerve wracking things that I think we ever did during the war. You could see the balloon barrage, balloons above us, knowing that at least one cable coming down and a few other stray cables sometimes.

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And if one of them hit the wing or fell- wing hit one of those And if one of them hit the wing or fell- wing hit one of those

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[John] we'd be in the, you know, we're only going at 5 or 600 feet, we'd be into the ground in the- your life would be ended in about two or three seconds. [Aaron] So how- how did you negotiate the, how did Keith negotiate the aircraft through ballo- balloon barrage? [John] we'd be in the, you know, we're only going at 5 or 600 feet, we'd be into the ground in the- your life would be ended in about two or three seconds. [Aaron] So how- how did you negotiate the, how did Keith negotiate the aircraft through ballo- balloon barrage?

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Just keeping your fingers crossed, you know, flying at 200 miles an hour you couldn't see a cable. There is no way of avoiding them, so you just, um, a wing and a prayer. Just keeping your fingers crossed, you know, flying at 200 miles an hour you couldn't see a cable. There is no way of avoiding them, so you just, um, a wing and a prayer.

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[John] The C.O. went through in front of us and we had no alternative but to do the same thing. And I think the six or eight planes that went through that balloon barrage, none of them hit a cable. [Aaron] Yeah right. [John] We were lucky. [Aaron] Yes. [John] But [John] The C.O. went through in front of us and we had no alternative but to do the same thing. And I think the six or eight planes that went through that balloon barrage, none of them hit a cable. [Aaron] Yeah right. [John] We were lucky. [Aaron] Yes. [John] But

29:08

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they're- it's a daunting thing you wouldn't go through balloon barrage, they're- it's a daunting thing you wouldn't go through balloon barrage,

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[John] no, or, unless you could avoid it. [Aaron] That's right, yeah. [John] no, or, unless you could avoid it. [Aaron] That's right, yeah.

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It's interesting that you referred to the operation for D-Day. Because I can imagine you'd be dropping paratroopers from the 6th Airborne, is that right? It's interesting that you referred to the operation for D-Day. Because I can imagine you'd be dropping paratroopers from the 6th Airborne, is that right?

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[John] I'm not sure what you mean, Aaron? [Aaron] The the British paratroopers themselves? [John] I'm not sure what you mean, Aaron? [Aaron] The the British paratroopers themselves?

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I, I the, I, I the,

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those, those paratroopers were involved in, was what was quite a significant action for that for that regiment, the battle of Pegasus Bridge. And I've just been reading a memoir of the German Panzer commander who was on the other side. And so when I'm reading- reading these, this account of this German commander coming up against these British paratroopers flying over the Orne, those, those paratroopers were involved in, was what was quite a significant action for that for that regiment, the battle of Pegasus Bridge. And I've just been reading a memoir of the German Panzer commander who was on the other side. And so when I'm reading- reading these, this account of this German commander coming up against these British paratroopers flying over the Orne,

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And I remember you were telling me this and I'm thinking, Oh wow, this is, you know, John may have actually dropped these, ah, part of the force that were dropping these British paratroopers. And I remember you were telling me this and I'm thinking, Oh wow, this is, you know, John may have actually dropped these, ah, part of the force that were dropping these British paratroopers.

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Yes, I think they sort of expected that this could happen. I know they had, um, big posts built into it, but most of the fields in that area to stop gliders coming in. So, that, probably the only way of getting troops there would have been, not gliders, but paratroopers. Yes, I think they sort of expected that this could happen. I know they had, um, big posts built into it, but most of the fields in that area to stop gliders coming in. So, that, probably the only way of getting troops there would have been, not gliders, but paratroopers.

30:34

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Anyway, that was uneventful, we Anyway, that was uneventful, we

30:37

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survived D-day and I think we only did two or three of those resupplies, and survived D-day and I think we only did two or three of those resupplies, and

30:45

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then went on to our usual then went on to our usual

30:50

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training of glider pilots and paratroop dropping until, um, training of glider pilots and paratroop dropping until, um,

30:60

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General Mc- no, General General Mc- no, General

31:04

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Montgomery! decided to shorten the war by holding the bridge over the River Rhine in Montgomery! decided to shorten the war by holding the bridge over the River Rhine in

31:14

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Holland, Holland,

31:16

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Arnhem, Arnhem,

31:18

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could shorten the war by anything up to 12 or 18 months. could shorten the war by anything up to 12 or 18 months.

31:24

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So the idea was good. Er, that he would come up with his forces from the South by road and tanks and the British paratroopers would hold the bridge at Arnhem for up to four or five days till they got there, prevent it being blown up So the idea was good. Er, that he would come up with his forces from the South by road and tanks and the British paratroopers would hold the bridge at Arnhem for up to four or five days till they got there, prevent it being blown up

31:46

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or captured so that they could get across the Rhine and then, um, or captured so that they could get across the Rhine and then, um,

31:54

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shorten the war. shorten the war.

31:56

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Unfortunately, because of, I think small mindedness in many ways, Unfortunately, because of, I think small mindedness in many ways,

32:02

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they instead of taking three days to get up there it might have been six days, and they instead of taking three days to get up there it might have been six days, and

32:09

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that was a single road that they were traveling on mainly. that was a single road that they were traveling on mainly.

32:14

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One sniper could hold up the whole line, One sniper could hold up the whole line,

32:18

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or if a vehicle broke down many minutes would be lost. or if a vehicle broke down many minutes would be lost.

32:24

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The side of the road was too soft, the road, the, The side of the road was too soft, the road, the,

32:31

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sometimes below sea level in Holland and too damp and wet to have heavy vehicles in them. So they had to stop the whole column of troops and tanks etc to flush out one, sometimes below sea level in Holland and too damp and wet to have heavy vehicles in them. So they had to stop the whole column of troops and tanks etc to flush out one,

32:46

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one sniper sometimes, or a batch of Germans, just ah, may take hours to flush out. Instead of taking three days, I think it took them six, which put to the test the one sniper sometimes, or a batch of Germans, just ah, may take hours to flush out. Instead of taking three days, I think it took them six, which put to the test the

33:01

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seven- ten thousand paratroopers that were seven- ten thousand paratroopers that were

33:05

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trying to hold the bridge open at Arnhem trying to hold the bridge open at Arnhem

33:10

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to a very, ah, strained position. The Germans, I think fortunately or accidentally, had Tiger tanks in the area at the time. It's been argued they were just there for servicing purposes, but they, to a very, ah, strained position. The Germans, I think fortunately or accidentally, had Tiger tanks in the area at the time. It's been argued they were just there for servicing purposes, but they,

33:27

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there are some who say they knew that, um, there are some who say they knew that, um,

33:31

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The story of Arnhem was coming and the tanks were there to The story of Arnhem was coming and the tanks were there to

33:35

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greet us. greet us.

33:37

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I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, but I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, but

33:42

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the paratroopers had a few anti tank guns and Jeeps but that was all they had to fight t- tiger tanks and it was a very uneven contest. the paratroopers had a few anti tank guns and Jeeps but that was all they had to fight t- tiger tanks and it was a very uneven contest.

33:54

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So, Arnhem finished up to be a glory-, glorious defeat. So, Arnhem finished up to be a glory-, glorious defeat.

34:00

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Excuse me, um. We Excuse me, um. We

34:05

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were shot down on the second or third day of the resupply of the troops. were shot down on the second or third day of the resupply of the troops.

34:13

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Mainly because in ?East Anglia? where all the fighters were stationed, Mainly because in ?East Anglia? where all the fighters were stationed,

34:20

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Were promised 1000 Spitfire, rocket firing Spitfires and Typhoons, and none took off that day because East Anglia was in fog. Were promised 1000 Spitfire, rocket firing Spitfires and Typhoons, and none took off that day because East Anglia was in fog.

34:31

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But we had to resupply and where we were coming from, from the West of England, it was clear skies. So we took off But we had to resupply and where we were coming from, from the West of England, it was clear skies. So we took off

34:39

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Not realizing that we wouldn't have any fighter cover and, ah, we were sitting ducks. Not realizing that we wouldn't have any fighter cover and, ah, we were sitting ducks.

34:45

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Whereas the day before there wasn't one anti-aircraft gun prepared to fire because they could see all the Whereas the day before there wasn't one anti-aircraft gun prepared to fire because they could see all the

34:52

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[John] rocket firing fighters above them, which would knock them out quickly. [Aaron] Yeah, yes. [John] Instead of that a lot of the aircraft were knocked out quickly, and we were hit. [John] rocket firing fighters above them, which would knock them out quickly. [Aaron] Yeah, yes. [John] Instead of that a lot of the aircraft were knocked out quickly, and we were hit.

35:06

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And, um, Keith thought we might have been carrying petrol. I'm not sure. Fuel. But we certainly had a fairly big fire And, um, Keith thought we might have been carrying petrol. I'm not sure. Fuel. But we certainly had a fairly big fire

35:16

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in the midsection of our aircraft, apart from that I think one or two engines on fire. in the midsection of our aircraft, apart from that I think one or two engines on fire.

35:23

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and we did have to bail out fairly quickly. and we did have to bail out fairly quickly.

35:26

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And And

35:30

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I think I probably bailed out at about five or six hundred feet. I think I probably bailed out at about five or six hundred feet.

35:34

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No, I think maybe more than that. But I think Keith bailed out at 500 feet, which he was the last as the captain of the plane to leave the plane, and he only No, I think maybe more than that. But I think Keith bailed out at 500 feet, which he was the last as the captain of the plane to leave the plane, and he only

35:46

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[John] opened his parachute and, or it only opened as he hit the tree tops so he didn't have many seconds- [Aaron] Yeah, [John] -to spare. Yeah, and I was up higher and I know I was being shot at. [John] opened his parachute and, or it only opened as he hit the tree tops so he didn't have many seconds- [Aaron] Yeah, [John] -to spare. Yeah, and I was up higher and I know I was being shot at.

35:59

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And when we landed, which I landed in And when we landed, which I landed in

36:04

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scrub country, just low bushes and not a forest and not, open area a bit. scrub country, just low bushes and not a forest and not, open area a bit.

36:12

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stayed stayed

36:16

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So covered as I could for the moment and then within an hour there was a, So covered as I could for the moment and then within an hour there was a,

36:23

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a line of a line of

36:26

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Elderly Germans, really, with rifles. I think there was an airfield nearby Arnhem, and the cooks and bottle washers were given a rifle, and they were twice my age, elderly Elderly Germans, really, with rifles. I think there was an airfield nearby Arnhem, and the cooks and bottle washers were given a rifle, and they were twice my age, elderly

36:42

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soldiers in a way, walking line abreast, looking for the likes of us, that had seen bailout. soldiers in a way, walking line abreast, looking for the likes of us, that had seen bailout.

36:50

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And so I put my hands up and surrendered to them. And so I put my hands up and surrendered to them.

36:56

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And they took me to a, And they took me to a,

36:59

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a road which I could see about two or three hundred yards from where I was captured. A little dirt road really a road which I could see about two or three hundred yards from where I was captured. A little dirt road really

37:08

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where I found my bomb aimer. where I found my bomb aimer.

37:11

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Had been shot on his way down, Had been shot on his way down,

37:14

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in the side, in the side,

37:16

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lying on a stretcher and they made me carry him to lying on a stretcher and they made me carry him to

37:22

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a very nice Dutch home which had been turned into a first aid place by the Germans. And a very nice Dutch home which had been turned into a first aid place by the Germans. And

37:29

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twenty or thirty twenty or thirty

37:31

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bloody wounded laying over the beautiful carpet in this lounge room. It seems so incongruous. bloody wounded laying over the beautiful carpet in this lounge room. It seems so incongruous.

37:38

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And I was made to leave Reg Gibbs my, And I was made to leave Reg Gibbs my,

37:42

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, bomb aimer and good friend , bomb aimer and good friend

37:45

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laying on this stretcher, he asked me to contact his wife and laying on this stretcher, he asked me to contact his wife and

37:50

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gave me his address, there and then, before I left him and, um, I wrote to her as soon as I got out of- got to prison camp and we were allowed to write two letters a month or something. I wrote to her, told gave me his address, there and then, before I left him and, um, I wrote to her as soon as I got out of- got to prison camp and we were allowed to write two letters a month or something. I wrote to her, told

38:05

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her that Reg was her that Reg was

38:09

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only slightly wounded and, ah, only slightly wounded and, ah,

38:13

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that he'd soon recover, but unfortunately it appears in, that he'd soon recover, but unfortunately it appears in,

38:18

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after the war, we found out that the Germans had to vacate the after the war, we found out that the Germans had to vacate the

38:23

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first aid post they had there and they just threw a few grenades in and killed all the wounded. first aid post they had there and they just threw a few grenades in and killed all the wounded.

38:31

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And that was in contradiction to what I wrote to his wife some weeks later. And that was in contradiction to what I wrote to his wife some weeks later.

38:40

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And, um, And, um,

38:42

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I said that he was alive in October whereas he died two days after. I said that he was alive in October whereas he died two days after.

38:51

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We were shot down about the 22nd of September, I think. We were shot down about the 22nd of September, I think.

38:59

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It's quite a story. It's quite a story.

39:02

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Yes, well, that of course Yes, well, that of course

39:04

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made us prisoners of war. made us prisoners of war.

39:09

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We were, We were,

39:12

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After I left Reg in the After I left Reg in the

39:15

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first aid place. We were taken to a big tennis court just a few hundred meters away. first aid place. We were taken to a big tennis court just a few hundred meters away.

39:22

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Where there were some hundreds of Where there were some hundreds of

39:28

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Prisoners, paratroopers and few Air Force, but mainly paratroopers and Prisoners, paratroopers and few Air Force, but mainly paratroopers and

39:35

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as P.O.W's as P.O.W's

39:37

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now I'll always remember there was a young now I'll always remember there was a young

39:40

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S.S. guy, he ah, came up and talked to me. I think I was about the only person around that was an officer and I'd just, ah, received my Commission, was a pilot officer and this smart young S.S. guy, he ah, came up and talked to me. I think I was about the only person around that was an officer and I'd just, ah, received my Commission, was a pilot officer and this smart young

39:54

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SS guy came up and started talking to me and he'd been ah, at University in England and he was very good English Speaking of course. SS guy came up and started talking to me and he'd been ah, at University in England and he was very good English Speaking of course.

40:05

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And, um, he And, um, he

40:08

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unlike other unlike other

40:10

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troops, they just grab their wristwatches off their arms and took them off everybody they could see, but he was polite enough to ask me if I had a wristwatch and I said no. And he troops, they just grab their wristwatches off their arms and took them off everybody they could see, but he was polite enough to ask me if I had a wristwatch and I said no. And he

40:22

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didn't search me and I carried that wristwatch through the whole of the time as a prisoner. didn't search me and I carried that wristwatch through the whole of the time as a prisoner.

40:30

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But I deflated his ego, I think, a little bit. He was saying how we were all starving in England and I said "Oh no, no we're But I deflated his ego, I think, a little bit. He was saying how we were all starving in England and I said "Oh no, no we're

40:43

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we've plenty of food. In fact tonight, If I hadn't been shot down, I was taking my girlfriend to a restaurant where we could have a steak or whatever we wanted. [Laughter] And he was really surprised and shocked that, that's how Britain was. He thought we were all starving in, in Britain and, ah, my little bit of propaganda that deflated his thoughts about that. we've plenty of food. In fact tonight, If I hadn't been shot down, I was taking my girlfriend to a restaurant where we could have a steak or whatever we wanted. [Laughter] And he was really surprised and shocked that, that's how Britain was. He thought we were all starving in, in Britain and, ah, my little bit of propaganda that deflated his thoughts about that.

41:11

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Um, after that to, we had to, Um, after that to, we had to,

41:16

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well, well,

41:18

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I think we all slept in the cellar somewhere. Some of those troops that night, it was very hard to sleep, but we find a little spot to lean against a wall and I think we all slept in the cellar somewhere. Some of those troops that night, it was very hard to sleep, but we find a little spot to lean against a wall and

41:28

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fitfully slept, and then the next day were rounded up to march to Germany, which was about 30 kilometres away, I think from memory, a little town called ?Zutphen? roughly just inside the German border. fitfully slept, and then the next day were rounded up to march to Germany, which was about 30 kilometres away, I think from memory, a little town called ?Zutphen? roughly just inside the German border.

41:45

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And, um, we marched And, um, we marched

41:49

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hundreds of, um, prisoners hundreds of, um, prisoners

41:53

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across that day. across that day.

41:55

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I think a lot of us thought of trying to escape, but, um, I think a lot of us thought of trying to escape, but, um,

41:60

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with guards along each side of us with a rifle, with guards along each side of us with a rifle,

42:05

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fairly open country, I think it would have been futile to try and escape. Maybe if there'd been a mass escape of, ah, perhaps fifty of us or everybody broke out to escape, but fairly open country, I think it would have been futile to try and escape. Maybe if there'd been a mass escape of, ah, perhaps fifty of us or everybody broke out to escape, but

42:17

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That wouldn't be possible to arrange that when you're all That wouldn't be possible to arrange that when you're all

42:22

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[John] marching along without- [Aaron] That's right. [John] -much chance of discussing things. So, um, there weren't any escapes on that walk of 30-odd kilometres. And [John] marching along without- [Aaron] That's right. [John] -much chance of discussing things. So, um, there weren't any escapes on that walk of 30-odd kilometres. And

42:34

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then we got to ?Zutphen? and slept somewhere that night, and then we got to ?Zutphen? and slept somewhere that night, and

42:39

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then we were loaded into cattle trucks to go to what we thought prisoner of war camps, but we were taken from there to Frankfurt where there was a big interrogation Center for aircrew. I think we knew all about the interrogation center before we got there. then we were loaded into cattle trucks to go to what we thought prisoner of war camps, but we were taken from there to Frankfurt where there was a big interrogation Center for aircrew. I think we knew all about the interrogation center before we got there.

43:01

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I think we were taught how to behave and to only give our name, rank and number and that etc, but I think we were taught how to behave and to only give our name, rank and number and that etc, but

43:10

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We were all put into an isolation cell and you saw no other crew or nobody else. In our case, for at least a week we were there. And it is demoralizing when you can't talk to anybody, you don't know what's happening to the rest of the crew or We were all put into an isolation cell and you saw no other crew or nobody else. In our case, for at least a week we were there. And it is demoralizing when you can't talk to anybody, you don't know what's happening to the rest of the crew or

43:32

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what is going on? what is going on?

43:35

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And the threats at the interrogators would make, they would be as nice as pie when you got in there and say all we want to know is, um, your name, rank and number. But all we were told to give was our name, rank and number. And they would say, well, we we must know where, um, And the threats at the interrogators would make, they would be as nice as pie when you got in there and say all we want to know is, um, your name, rank and number. But all we were told to give was our name, rank and number. And they would say, well, we we must know where, um,

43:53

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What squadron you were in? Because a lot of, ah, spies come over here and say they're air crew shot down and they're really spies and we think you're probably a spy anyway, so you'll go to the Gestapo if you don't tell us and the Gestapo aren't nearly as polite as we are where you're, they'll find out whether you are a spy or not. What squadron you were in? Because a lot of, ah, spies come over here and say they're air crew shot down and they're really spies and we think you're probably a spy anyway, so you'll go to the Gestapo if you don't tell us and the Gestapo aren't nearly as polite as we are where you're, they'll find out whether you are a spy or not.

44:17

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And one is tempted to say, well, And one is tempted to say, well,

44:22

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We came from so and so squadron and so on, but I never did say where we came from, but We came from so and so squadron and so on, but I never did say where we came from, but

44:28

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Somebody in our crew did. Somebody in our crew did.

44:31

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And And

44:35

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You can't really blame anybody, it was nothing very serious to say where you are, but I think once you started talking then they know you can talk some more and You can't really blame anybody, it was nothing very serious to say where you are, but I think once you started talking then they know you can talk some more and

44:46

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Maybe a lot can be got from a talkative prisoner. Maybe a lot can be got from a talkative prisoner.

44:52

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However, after six or seven days there, we were told it, where we came from, and they knew somebody had spoken of what crew we're in, or what squadron we were in. However, after six or seven days there, we were told it, where we came from, and they knew somebody had spoken of what crew we're in, or what squadron we were in.

45:06

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And then we were put in another train which took us to And then we were put in another train which took us to

45:13

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a prison camp, a prison camp,

45:17

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and that was due North of Berlin. and that was due North of Berlin.

45:20

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On the, um, On the, um,

45:22

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Baltic Sea and we were stationed very near Bath in England and our prison camp was very near a town called Bath in Germany. Baltic Sea and we were stationed very near Bath in England and our prison camp was very near a town called Bath in Germany.

45:35

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spelled B-A-R-T-H as against Bath spelled B-A-R-T-H as against Bath

45:40

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near Bristol. near Bristol.

45:42

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Then, Then,

45:44

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that was a very long, tedious flight. All prisoners of war that was a very long, tedious flight. All prisoners of war

45:51

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where, um, where, um,

45:53

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the lowest the lowest

45:55

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category troop trains, I think probably the first category, that the category troop trains, I think probably the first category, that the

46:02

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prisoner of war camps would often find ourselves in a siding for a day or 24 hours. prisoner of war camps would often find ourselves in a siding for a day or 24 hours.

46:09

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And sometimes there would be a And sometimes there would be a

46:13

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fighter bomber, come over and strafe the train and all the guards would run into the fighter bomber, come over and strafe the train and all the guards would run into the

46:19

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the culverts at the side. But they didn't let us out. [Aaron] Yeah, right. the culverts at the side. But they didn't let us out. [Aaron] Yeah, right.

46:25

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[John] That was- [Aaron] At what point were you separated from the other ranked, um, other ranks? Because as an officer you would have been treated quite differently from the other men. [John] That was- [Aaron] At what point were you separated from the other ranked, um, other ranks? Because as an officer you would have been treated quite differently from the other men.

46:36

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Yes, well, not till, um... we certainly were all sorts going to Frankfurt to the interrogation centre. Yes, well, not till, um... we certainly were all sorts going to Frankfurt to the interrogation centre.

46:47

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Then Then

46:49

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I can only remember being the only R.A.F person amongst U.S. I can only remember being the only R.A.F person amongst U.S.

46:57

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aircrew, aircrew,

46:58

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Verify

which were all Officer's. We were going to Stalag Luft 1 but, uh, we found out they were traveling to - which was an Officer's camp, which were all Officer's. We were going to Stalag Luft 1 but, uh, we found out they were traveling to - which was an Officer's camp,

47:08

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which is a mixed blessing. You aren't allowed to be made to work. You don't have to work as a non-commissioned person would. which is a mixed blessing. You aren't allowed to be made to work. You don't have to work as a non-commissioned person would.

47:19

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But I think in many ways the, uh, But I think in many ways the, uh,

47:23

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Privilege of going out to work in farms, and saw a bit of Privilege of going out to work in farms, and saw a bit of

47:28

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outside life and sometimes a little bit of extra food et cetera. Whereas we in Stalag Luft 1 outside life and sometimes a little bit of extra food et cetera. Whereas we in Stalag Luft 1

47:38

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had no- nothing apart from our Red Cross parcels, which of course kept us alive. [Aaron] Just on that subject on the- with the Red Cross. At what point did you- did you... we- we saw quite earlier on that you- you must have penned something... you must have written something down which made its way to the Red Cross. had no- nothing apart from our Red Cross parcels, which of course kept us alive. [Aaron] Just on that subject on the- with the Red Cross. At what point did you- did you... we- we saw quite earlier on that you- you must have penned something... you must have written something down which made its way to the Red Cross.

47:57

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Where, what do you, where do you think you might have sort of written to your folks to let them know that you were OK? Where, what do you, where do you think you might have sort of written to your folks to let them know that you were OK?

48:05

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Well, we were allowed 2 letters a month, I think it was, Aaron - [Aaron] Yeah. [John] -to anybody. Well, we were allowed 2 letters a month, I think it was, Aaron - [Aaron] Yeah. [John] -to anybody.

48:15

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There was an obviously a big store of Red Cross parcels in our camp. There was an obviously a big store of Red Cross parcels in our camp.

48:24

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Which were never pilfered by the Germans as far as I know. I think there was a Red Cross Which were never pilfered by the Germans as far as I know. I think there was a Red Cross

48:30

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Society person in charge of the, the, er, Society person in charge of the, the, er,

48:36

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supply of Red Cross parcels and supply of Red Cross parcels and

48:39

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there were twelve-odd thousand people in our prison camp, which comprised about ten thousand Americans and there were twelve-odd thousand people in our prison camp, which comprised about ten thousand Americans and

48:48

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About two thousand Commonwealth and About two thousand Commonwealth and

48:53

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British of course, POW's. I can remember two or three Russians, but very few Russians. But there were two or three Russians. British of course, POW's. I can remember two or three Russians, but very few Russians. But there were two or three Russians.

49:03

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Because they were given the job of cleaning out the toilets. Um, we for-, fortunately didn't have to do things like that. But the, the Russians did. Because they were given the job of cleaning out the toilets. Um, we for-, fortunately didn't have to do things like that. But the, the Russians did.

49:14

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But, um, we seemed to... if there were... sometimes we went on to half a Red Cross parcel or 1 a fortnight instead of 1 a week, but they were most sustaining and were very much helpful in keeping us healthy and fit and alive. [Aaron] Can you remember what- what they contained? But, um, we seemed to... if there were... sometimes we went on to half a Red Cross parcel or 1 a fortnight instead of 1 a week, but they were most sustaining and were very much helpful in keeping us healthy and fit and alive. [Aaron] Can you remember what- what they contained?

49:38

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Very nutritious chocolate bars. Thick, strong chocolate bars, Very nutritious chocolate bars. Thick, strong chocolate bars,

49:45

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canned meat.... canned meat....

49:47

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I think there was a hundred cigarettes in each packet. Each, er, Red Cross parcel. I think there was a hundred cigarettes in each packet. Each, er, Red Cross parcel.

49:56

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They're the only things that come to my mind, Aaron, but it was a box about, They're the only things that come to my mind, Aaron, but it was a box about,

50:02

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in the old measurements, about 18 inches square and about 10 inches high I'd say. [Aaron] Hmm. [John] It was a fairly- enough to live on for a week. [Aaron] Right. in the old measurements, about 18 inches square and about 10 inches high I'd say. [Aaron] Hmm. [John] It was a fairly- enough to live on for a week. [Aaron] Right.

50:13

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We did get supplements of We did get supplements of

50:16

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vegetables from the Germans, uh, vegetables from the Germans, uh,

50:20

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potatoes and carrots and stuff. potatoes and carrots and stuff.

50:24

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Um, Um,

50:27

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Soap in the, in the Red Cross parcels. Soap in the, in the Red Cross parcels.

50:31

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The, um, Germans supplied us with soap, but it was always assumed that they were the fat from the Jews that were killed in concentration camps. The, um, Germans supplied us with soap, but it was always assumed that they were the fat from the Jews that were killed in concentration camps.

50:45

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The sort of stories that went 'round... possibly quite true. The sort of stories that went 'round... possibly quite true.

50:49

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The Germans would give us what they called Ersatz coffee which was, um, The Germans would give us what they called Ersatz coffee which was, um,

50:55

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made out of nuts or t- tree leaves or something. It would have no resemblance to coffee as we knew it. [Aaron laughs] And of course the Red Cross parcels would have had coffee. made out of nuts or t- tree leaves or something. It would have no resemblance to coffee as we knew it. [Aaron laughs] And of course the Red Cross parcels would have had coffee.

51:07

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But the, um, But the, um,

51:09

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bartering system with the guards was very rife, and the sort of bartering system with the guards was very rife, and the sort of

51:18

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currency were cigarettes. You could currency were cigarettes. You could

51:21

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get, uh, get, uh,

51:23

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anything if you had enough cigarettes. And of course we had a radio in our camp, which anything if you had enough cigarettes. And of course we had a radio in our camp, which

51:32

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gave us the BBC News every day regardless of what happened. And we were, gave us the BBC News every day regardless of what happened. And we were,

51:40

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we would have been much more deflated if we only heard the German news, which came over the tannoy every day. But somebody walked around with a secret we would have been much more deflated if we only heard the German news, which came over the tannoy every day. But somebody walked around with a secret

51:52

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newsletter from the BBC, which gave a quite different picture to what the Germans were telling us. [Aaron] Yes. [John] That was always heartening. newsletter from the BBC, which gave a quite different picture to what the Germans were telling us. [Aaron] Yes. [John] That was always heartening.

52:03

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And those people who were bribed sufficiently to supply radio valves and radio equipment And those people who were bribed sufficiently to supply radio valves and radio equipment

52:12

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probably would have been sent to the Russian front if they were found out- [Aaron laughs] but, um, probably would have been sent to the Russian front if they were found out- [Aaron laughs] but, um,

52:18

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Like with today's Like with today's

52:22

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drug suppliers, once you do, um, one drug suppliers, once you do, um, one

52:27

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bartering with the radio supplies they- they were caught. They had to keep doing it, or you would threaten to tell their C.O. and they would be sent to the Russian front. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] So, bartering with the radio supplies they- they were caught. They had to keep doing it, or you would threaten to tell their C.O. and they would be sent to the Russian front. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] So,

52:40

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we could... and I remember once I wanted a pencil - and it sticks in my mind because I sought out a German guard that was walking around in a fairly quiet part of the camp and we could... and I remember once I wanted a pencil - and it sticks in my mind because I sought out a German guard that was walking around in a fairly quiet part of the camp and

52:54

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Said to him in my broken German ?'Haben [german is spoken] blast of bitter'?. Said to him in my broken German ?'Haben [german is spoken] blast of bitter'?.

53:02

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"Would you give me a pencil, please?" "Would you give me a pencil, please?"

53:04

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And, um, I think we bargained about whether it was 3 or 5 cigarettes, or something like that. And, um, I think we bargained about whether it was 3 or 5 cigarettes, or something like that.

53:12

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And I got a pencil off him and he got 5 cigarettes off me. [both laugh] And I got a pencil off him and he got 5 cigarettes off me. [both laugh]

53:18

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That's the sort of thing that would happen. [Aaron] What about amongst the prisoners themselves? Could you, could you sort of exchange goods within camp from other prisoners? That's the sort of thing that would happen. [Aaron] What about amongst the prisoners themselves? Could you, could you sort of exchange goods within camp from other prisoners?

53:28

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I can't ever remember it happening Aaron. I think we're all pretty much in the same boat. There might have been... you know, I can't stand bully beef and he would swap something for I can't ever remember it happening Aaron. I think we're all pretty much in the same boat. There might have been... you know, I can't stand bully beef and he would swap something for

53:39

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something else. I'm sure that went on, but I haven't any something else. I'm sure that went on, but I haven't any

53:43

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personal recollection of ever change, er, swapping things. I'm sure the non-smokers would have done so. personal recollection of ever change, er, swapping things. I'm sure the non-smokers would have done so.

53:53

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As I say, the currency was cigarettes, so perhaps a bully beef tin might have been 50 cigarettes or something- [Aaron] Hmm... yep. [John]- and the non-smokers would get a little bit more food that way. As I say, the currency was cigarettes, so perhaps a bully beef tin might have been 50 cigarettes or something- [Aaron] Hmm... yep. [John]- and the non-smokers would get a little bit more food that way.

54:06

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I always remember there was a few, I always remember there was a few,

54:10

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excuse me... feral cats that wandered around underneath the huts of the camp. And some excuse me... feral cats that wandered around underneath the huts of the camp. And some

54:18

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quite smart quite smart

54:21

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P.O.W's would manage to trap 1 or kill 1 and cook it up to get a bit more protein. [Aaron laughs] But a promulgation came round on the list of orders that we weren't to kill any more cats. [Aaron laughs] They weren't um- that was our- the British- British told us we weren't to do that. [Aaron] Yes. [John] I don't think the Germans knew about it, but I think they regarded that probably as pretty unhealthy really. [Aaron] Yes, so, um, you mentioned before that the P.O.W's would manage to trap 1 or kill 1 and cook it up to get a bit more protein. [Aaron laughs] But a promulgation came round on the list of orders that we weren't to kill any more cats. [Aaron laughs] They weren't um- that was our- the British- British told us we weren't to do that. [Aaron] Yes. [John] I don't think the Germans knew about it, but I think they regarded that probably as pretty unhealthy really. [Aaron] Yes, so, um, you mentioned before that the

54:52

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Officers weren't made to work, um, like the other ranks were. Officers weren't made to work, um, like the other ranks were.

54:57

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So I'd imagine that time in the camp itself on a daily- day- on a day to day basis must be fairly boring? So I'd imagine that time in the camp itself on a daily- day- on a day to day basis must be fairly boring?

55:04

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Yes, we were lucky. In fact, you know, in hindsight, the Germans Yes, we were lucky. In fact, you know, in hindsight, the Germans

55:10

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generally speaking, were quite decent, civilised people. generally speaking, were quite decent, civilised people.

55:16

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We had a church service that everybody was free to go to of a Sunday... and did... because it broke the monopo- monotony. We were allowed to put on We had a church service that everybody was free to go to of a Sunday... and did... because it broke the monopo- monotony. We were allowed to put on

55:29

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sort of concerts, where you would - sort of concerts, where you would -

55:33

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I remember once I was designated the job of being a pretty Fraulein, and I had to dress up I remember once I was designated the job of being a pretty Fraulein, and I had to dress up

55:41

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And say ' Ich Liebe Dich' I love you, was all I had to learn to say.[laughter] That reminds me of the concerts we used to And say ' Ich Liebe Dich' I love you, was all I had to learn to say.[laughter] That reminds me of the concerts we used to

55:50

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put on and put on and

55:53

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the Germans were quite happy to let us do that anytime we wanted to. the Germans were quite happy to let us do that anytime we wanted to.

55:59

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Um... then there were lectures put on by... and of course Um... then there were lectures put on by... and of course

56:06

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two thousand British two thousand British

56:08

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and Commonwealth and Commonwealth

56:11

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Well educated people, There was a very good smattering of every Well educated people, There was a very good smattering of every

56:16

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profession and occupation, and profession and occupation, and

56:19

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I used to go to a quite a few lectures on motor engineering. I used to go to a quite a few lectures on motor engineering.

56:24

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by motoring enthusiasts, that, uh, by motoring enthusiasts, that, uh,

56:28

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it gave me a very good understanding of an internal combustion engine and how to fo- find et cetera, et cetera. it gave me a very good understanding of an internal combustion engine and how to fo- find et cetera, et cetera.

56:37

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And I think you could learn any language... almost, if you wanted to. [Aaron] Hmm. [John] And I did learn a bit of German, which was And I think you could learn any language... almost, if you wanted to. [Aaron] Hmm. [John] And I did learn a bit of German, which was

56:45

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almost impossible not to, but you could learn a language. All those things helped, I know we had parallel bars just outside our almost impossible not to, but you could learn a language. All those things helped, I know we had parallel bars just outside our

56:59

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hut, which you could exercise on, and so on. And they didn't preclude sport playing. hut, which you could exercise on, and so on. And they didn't preclude sport playing.

57:08

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There'd be sometimes There'd be sometimes

57:10

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Somebody having a bit of a game of cricket Somebody having a bit of a game of cricket

57:14

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And if, um, And if, um,

57:16

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the ball, the ball went beyond the tripwire, which was, ah, possibly about 20 or 30 feet from the Barb wire. the ball, the ball went beyond the tripwire, which was, ah, possibly about 20 or 30 feet from the Barb wire.

57:25

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Anybody went beyond that little Anybody went beyond that little

57:28

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foot High Tripwire would be shot at automatically. foot High Tripwire would be shot at automatically.

57:35

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And, uh, you'd have to stop there and look up to the Guard and And, uh, you'd have to stop there and look up to the Guard and

57:40

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sort of, um... " Can I go and get the ball?" And most times they would give- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] - you a nod to say you could go across nearer the barbed wire to get the ball. sort of, um... " Can I go and get the ball?" And most times they would give- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] - you a nod to say you could go across nearer the barbed wire to get the ball.

57:52

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But sometimes if they're bloody-minded or But sometimes if they're bloody-minded or

57:55

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Had an idea that might have been a bit of ulterior motion or ?votive? about it all that they wouldn't. and they'd, you'd have to wait till the guard walked around. As they do all the time. Had an idea that might have been a bit of ulterior motion or ?votive? about it all that they wouldn't. and they'd, you'd have to wait till the guard walked around. As they do all the time.

58:10

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And he would retrieve the ball for them. And he would retrieve the ball for them.

58:15

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So I think we really had a fairly good So I think we really had a fairly good

58:21

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occupying our time. [Aaron] Sure. [John] I don't remember reading many books there, Aaron. I think there might have been access to a library, but I have no recollection of occupying our time. [Aaron] Sure. [John] I don't remember reading many books there, Aaron. I think there might have been access to a library, but I have no recollection of

58:32

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reading much there. [Aaron] Right, yeah. [John] Um, we used to play bridge, things like that, at night. reading much there. [Aaron] Right, yeah. [John] Um, we used to play bridge, things like that, at night.

58:42

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Thinking about night time, so, I just remember that Thinking about night time, so, I just remember that

58:46

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we had an emergency toilet at the end of every Hut, which was we had an emergency toilet at the end of every Hut, which was

58:53

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probably about 200 people in the hut. About 16 per room, fairly big room with three or four level bunks probably about 200 people in the hut. About 16 per room, fairly big room with three or four level bunks

59:03

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along the wall and a big central along the wall and a big central

59:07

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fire in the middle for cooking and keeping the hut warm. fire in the middle for cooking and keeping the hut warm.

59:12

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But at the end of the hut there was a toilet for emergencies at night time. But at the end of the hut there was a toilet for emergencies at night time.

59:20

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And I had a bit of diarrhea or something... I went down there one night and And I had a bit of diarrhea or something... I went down there one night and

59:25

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They normally had timber shutters which are closed off They normally had timber shutters which are closed off

59:30

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at night time, at night time,

59:32

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To keep the lights down apart from anything else and keep the To keep the lights down apart from anything else and keep the

59:39

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the, uh, prisoners in. the, uh, prisoners in.

59:41

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But this- the shutters on this toilet were open and one of the guards walked by with his Alsatian- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] -German Shepherd, and he jumped in But this- the shutters on this toilet were open and one of the guards walked by with his Alsatian- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] -German Shepherd, and he jumped in

59:51

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to, um, to, um,

59:53

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to have a look at me. to have a look at me.

59:56

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I, ah, I, ah,

59:58

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Verify

then the guard sort of indicated to me not to move. He said: "You'll be alright if you don't move!" So I didn't move. [Both laugh] And he called him and then this big-very big German Shepherd jumped out, back out- [Aaron] Jeez. [John]- and disappeared. So I was relieved in more ways than 1. [laughter] then the guard sort of indicated to me not to move. He said: "You'll be alright if you don't move!" So I didn't move. [Both laugh] And he called him and then this big-very big German Shepherd jumped out, back out- [Aaron] Jeez. [John]- and disappeared. So I was relieved in more ways than 1. [laughter]

1:00:20

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I would imagine that in such, in such a close confined area, that, you know, living with a whole group of other guys may have sort of been quite nerving at times, it could have, no sense of personal space, or or no privacy? I would imagine that in such, in such a close confined area, that, you know, living with a whole group of other guys may have sort of been quite nerving at times, it could have, no sense of personal space, or or no privacy?

1:00:36

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Yes, um, 1 or 2 people I know used to go to the M.O - the Medical Officer that was there, Yes, um, 1 or 2 people I know used to go to the M.O - the Medical Officer that was there,

1:00:45

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?Leslie? a captured doctor, ?Leslie? a captured doctor,

1:00:49

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With, um, problems like that saying With, um, problems like that saying

1:00:54

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They're very nervy or touchy and They're very nervy or touchy and

1:00:59

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'missing their sex life' was another. 'missing their sex life' was another.

1:01:02

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A chap I remember went to his doctor about it and he said: "Well A chap I remember went to his doctor about it and he said: "Well

1:01:06

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masturbate!" masturbate!"

1:01:10

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But you could become quite, But you could become quite,

1:01:13

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probably, hypercritical of some of your friends. Your inmates. When you're in close confines for a long time. probably, hypercritical of some of your friends. Your inmates. When you're in close confines for a long time.

1:01:23

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There was this, um... There was this, um...

1:01:26

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pretty sure he was a pretty sure he was a

1:01:28

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Welshman whom I Welshman whom I

1:01:31

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must have known on our air field, I think. He wasn't in our crew or anything, but must have known on our air field, I think. He wasn't in our crew or anything, but

1:01:37

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I knew him and liked him, but we found ourselves in the same Hut and I knew him and liked him, but we found ourselves in the same Hut and

1:01:43

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For some reason we developed a very, much, I found him a very nasty person, which I didn't For some reason we developed a very, much, I found him a very nasty person, which I didn't

1:01:51

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find in find in

1:01:53

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outside life. [Aaron] Right. [John] And outside life. [Aaron] Right. [John] And

1:01:57

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I think that sort of shows that one's temperament and change, changes a little in there, in close confines for so long. I think that sort of shows that one's temperament and change, changes a little in there, in close confines for so long.

1:02:07

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We weren't there for that long. It was nearly a year. But when you don't know how long it's going to be. We weren't there for that long. It was nearly a year. But when you don't know how long it's going to be.

1:02:16

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The Germans were quick to tell us that: The Germans were quick to tell us that:

1:02:20

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"We'll have you rebuilding our cities for the next 20 years. Once the war ends and you'll be sorry you ever bombed our cities". "We'll have you rebuilding our cities for the next 20 years. Once the war ends and you'll be sorry you ever bombed our cities".

1:02:31

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And, uh, [coughs] that's the sort of thing that went on. And, uh, [coughs] that's the sort of thing that went on.

1:02:35

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Yeah. So what... aside from the guards themselves, how- what- what sort of contact did you have with the other- other Germans? The- the say the Commandant of the camp or the administrators of the camp? Was there a sort of like a- a morning, um, apparel-like a parade? Each morning? [John] Yes, yes there was. So I was just thinking of a while ago. Yeah. So what... aside from the guards themselves, how- what- what sort of contact did you have with the other- other Germans? The- the say the Commandant of the camp or the administrators of the camp? Was there a sort of like a- a morning, um, apparel-like a parade? Each morning? [John] Yes, yes there was. So I was just thinking of a while ago.

1:02:58

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Whereas the British Commandant of our section would salute the Germans and Whereas the British Commandant of our section would salute the Germans and

1:03:06

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the formalities, and then there'd be a count of the formalities, and then there'd be a count of

1:03:11

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how many should be there. And this parade ground, I would say there was roughly 3 or 4 hundred of us in this particular small prison area. They'd be main- I think they were all R- R.A.F, R.A.A.F, R.C.A.F, er, Commonwealth. how many should be there. And this parade ground, I would say there was roughly 3 or 4 hundred of us in this particular small prison area. They'd be main- I think they were all R- R.A.F, R.A.A.F, R.C.A.F, er, Commonwealth.

1:03:32

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And, um, And, um,

1:03:34

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sometimes the- sometimes the-

1:03:37

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prearrange-they would mess up the count just to- as they'd walk along and they'd have a space and prearrange-they would mess up the count just to- as they'd walk along and they'd have a space and

1:03:46

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try and make one space into two, and all this sort of thing, and mess up the counting and there'd be too many or too little try and make one space into two, and all this sort of thing, and mess up the counting and there'd be too many or too little

1:03:54

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just to be frustrating. Or they wouldn't know whether they were just to be frustrating. Or they wouldn't know whether they were

1:04:01

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doing this to doing this to

1:04:04

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try and hide the fact that two people had escaped. try and hide the fact that two people had escaped.

1:04:08

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Whereas in- in effect at our prison camp: Stalag Luft 1, there was an order that we were not to try and escape, that it was getting too close to the end of the war, and too risky. [Aaron] And that order came from the British - senior British Officers? [John] Yep. [Aaron] Yep. [John] Uh, there was no escape committee organised. There had been earlier on... but the last year of the war, I think about the time we arrived, the escape committee had been disbanded and there was an order that we weren't to try and escape. Whereas in- in effect at our prison camp: Stalag Luft 1, there was an order that we were not to try and escape, that it was getting too close to the end of the war, and too risky. [Aaron] And that order came from the British - senior British Officers? [John] Yep. [Aaron] Yep. [John] Uh, there was no escape committee organised. There had been earlier on... but the last year of the war, I think about the time we arrived, the escape committee had been disbanded and there was an order that we weren't to try and escape.

1:04:44

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It was, um, It was, um,

1:04:46

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contrary to - contrary to -

1:04:48

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You were supposed to try and escape, but it, but it was counter, You were supposed to try and escape, but it, but it was counter,

1:04:54

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counter-designated by the, ah, senior Medi- British Officers that... 'no escaping' at that time. [Aaron] That- that's an interesting point you raise because it's- it's obviously, um, when you're in England, your training says that: 'always, at all opportunities, try and escape.' But the reality was that by 1944 onwards there was no - the- the war progressing, you know, there was perhaps little, counter-designated by the, ah, senior Medi- British Officers that... 'no escaping' at that time. [Aaron] That- that's an interesting point you raise because it's- it's obviously, um, when you're in England, your training says that: 'always, at all opportunities, try and escape.' But the reality was that by 1944 onwards there was no - the- the war progressing, you know, there was perhaps little,

1:05:23

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little reason to escape. But also after the- after the 'The Great Escape' at, um, at Sagan, [John] Yeah. [Aaron] there was an order for- for escapees who were recaptured was to- were to be shot. [John] Yes. That may have influenced our order in our camp... which may have realised the Germans weren't little reason to escape. But also after the- after the 'The Great Escape' at, um, at Sagan, [John] Yeah. [Aaron] there was an order for- for escapees who were recaptured was to- were to be shot. [John] Yes. That may have influenced our order in our camp... which may have realised the Germans weren't

1:05:45

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playing by the rules. They weren't supposed to shoot escapee prisoners, er, just recapture them and playing by the rules. They weren't supposed to shoot escapee prisoners, er, just recapture them and

1:05:52

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give them a few give them a few

1:05:54

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weeks in solitary confinement or something, but they weren't supposed to kill them. weeks in solitary confinement or something, but they weren't supposed to kill them.

1:05:59

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Yep. What sort of, ah, what sort of, um - just on the on the topic of escape- what sort of things were you briefed on in England? Like, you obviously were told of the interrogation centre at Frankfurt. But, um, did you have to complete sort of an 'escape and evasion course' as a member of Aircrew - when the reality was, that, you know, being shot down behind enemy lines was- was quite often a reality? Yep. What sort of, ah, what sort of, um - just on the on the topic of escape- what sort of things were you briefed on in England? Like, you obviously were told of the interrogation centre at Frankfurt. But, um, did you have to complete sort of an 'escape and evasion course' as a member of Aircrew - when the reality was, that, you know, being shot down behind enemy lines was- was quite often a reality?

1:06:24

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Well, we certainly did have a lot of lectures and stories of how different ones escaped. We were equipped with a... and I carried through Well, we certainly did have a lot of lectures and stories of how different ones escaped. We were equipped with a... and I carried through

1:06:36

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the whole of the war... the whole prison camp... a little compass about an inch long, which was tangled on a bit of cotton that was in my lapel of my battle dress, right through the prison camp. Nobody ever searched that- [Aaron] Right. [John]- closely to find it, and that's where we were told to just put it through the hem of the the whole of the war... the whole prison camp... a little compass about an inch long, which was tangled on a bit of cotton that was in my lapel of my battle dress, right through the prison camp. Nobody ever searched that- [Aaron] Right. [John]- closely to find it, and that's where we were told to just put it through the hem of the

1:06:58

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collar. collar.

1:07:01

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That would have helped if you wanted to know where north and south was. That would have helped if you wanted to know where north and south was.

1:07:06

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And a lot of, I think we had a lot of instruction on how to evade And a lot of, I think we had a lot of instruction on how to evade

1:07:12

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certain conditions which were more likely to lead to being captured, and stories of how people did get either down to the Swiss border or into, ah, neutral countries, certain conditions which were more likely to lead to being captured, and stories of how people did get either down to the Swiss border or into, ah, neutral countries,

1:07:27

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or to the coast and escape somehow across the water. or to the coast and escape somehow across the water.

1:07:33

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But, um, I think that's probably about all we did have in the way of escape. [Aaron] Hmm. But, um, I think that's probably about all we did have in the way of escape. [Aaron] Hmm.

1:07:42

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I don't think we were given any money or anything like that. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] Although, I may have had some German money. I vaguely remember something about I don't think we were given any money or anything like that. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] Although, I may have had some German money. I vaguely remember something about

1:07:51

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a few German notes, but a few German notes, but

1:07:55

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can't recall that. [Aaron] It's interesting though, that, yeah, despite all of this training the offer- the reality was that it may not have- can't recall that. [Aaron] It's interesting though, that, yeah, despite all of this training the offer- the reality was that it may not have-

1:08:03

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may not have come off, may not have come off,

1:08:06

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I mean, by the time you'd got to I mean, by the time you'd got to

1:08:08

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Stalag Luft 1 it was a very different story. [laughs] [John] I think so, yes. Stalag Luft 1 it was a very different story. [laughs] [John] I think so, yes.

1:08:14

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That's my recollection. That's my recollection.

1:08:18

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I suppose I must say I felt relieved that we weren't I suppose I must say I felt relieved that we weren't

1:08:22

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in fact, allowed to escape, or try to escape. in fact, allowed to escape, or try to escape.

1:08:28

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It seems such a long way right up on the, It seems such a long way right up on the,

1:08:32

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the, uh, Baltic Sea the, uh, Baltic Sea

1:08:36

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to escape, and to escape, and

1:08:38

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none of the huts were anything like near the none of the huts were anything like near the

1:08:42

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the perimeter of the camp. the perimeter of the camp.

1:08:47

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There'd been a lot of digging to get there and There'd been a lot of digging to get there and

1:08:54

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known of escapes, but I think it would be pretty hard to get out of Stalag Luft 1. [Aaron] Mmm. [John] I never heard of anybody that had escaped there. [Aaron] Hmm. known of escapes, but I think it would be pretty hard to get out of Stalag Luft 1. [Aaron] Mmm. [John] I never heard of anybody that had escaped there. [Aaron] Hmm.

1:09:05

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But, um, But, um,

1:09:07

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we used to we used to

1:09:09

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try and antagonise the guards sometimes and be a bit bloody-minded. And like we were saying on parade ground how just to upset the camp- the counting... just to annoy the guards. But sometimes the reverse would be true. On a nice crisp, cold morning they would leave us on parade for maybe 2 hours- [Aaron] Right. [John] - and let us try and antagonise the guards sometimes and be a bit bloody-minded. And like we were saying on parade ground how just to upset the camp- the counting... just to annoy the guards. But sometimes the reverse would be true. On a nice crisp, cold morning they would leave us on parade for maybe 2 hours- [Aaron] Right. [John] - and let us

1:09:36

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break from, uh, standing in- in line. break from, uh, standing in- in line.

1:09:42

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while they had a real good search thought the huts and- [Aaron] Hmm. while they had a real good search thought the huts and- [Aaron] Hmm.

1:09:46

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had a good check up on everything. But I was always surprised that they never found the radio's that we had, and we never ever went a day that we didn't get the BBC News brought 'round just on a had a good check up on everything. But I was always surprised that they never found the radio's that we had, and we never ever went a day that we didn't get the BBC News brought 'round just on a

1:10:02

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sheet of paper which was read to every room. sheet of paper which was read to every room.

1:10:07

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And And

1:10:10

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what did we call the Guards? Goons, I think. And if there's anybody- if the hut was being read the news, which the guy would probably do 8 or 10 rooms in the hut, there would be a guard at each end and they'd say 'goon up', shout out 'goon up' and the goon would know what you mean. [Aaron laughs] what did we call the Guards? Goons, I think. And if there's anybody- if the hut was being read the news, which the guy would probably do 8 or 10 rooms in the hut, there would be a guard at each end and they'd say 'goon up', shout out 'goon up' and the goon would know what you mean. [Aaron laughs]

1:10:33

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They would They would

1:10:35

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make sure that they never found who was reading out the news. The make sure that they never found who was reading out the news. The

1:10:41

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British news. British news.

1:10:44

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But, um, But, um,

1:10:47

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I can't think of any other way we were antagonistic towards the, um, I can't think of any other way we were antagonistic towards the, um,

1:10:53

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the Germans. They got a bit antagonistic towards us when there was, um, air raids on and we'd be cheering. But that would bring the worst out in the guards. And there was 1 American who was shot dead, and the war ended within weeks of this happening... but he went to the end of his hut and stood in the open doorway looking up at, the Germans. They got a bit antagonistic towards us when there was, um, air raids on and we'd be cheering. But that would bring the worst out in the guards. And there was 1 American who was shot dead, and the war ended within weeks of this happening... but he went to the end of his hut and stood in the open doorway looking up at,

1:11:21

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probably probably

1:11:24

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American bombers going over in daylight. American bombers going over in daylight.

1:11:27

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And the guard just shot him through the forehead, because all doors were supposed to be shut- [Aaron] Yes. [John]- and everybody stay inside if there's an air raid warning- [Aaron] Hmm. Hmm. [John] And he- And the guard just shot him through the forehead, because all doors were supposed to be shut- [Aaron] Yes. [John]- and everybody stay inside if there's an air raid warning- [Aaron] Hmm. Hmm. [John] And he-

1:11:41

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he died of that. he died of that.

1:11:43

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And the other sad thing, and I can only remember these two deaths in our area, And the other sad thing, and I can only remember these two deaths in our area,

1:11:50

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in the, in the,

1:11:52

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when the Ger-, when the Russians when the Ger-, when the Russians

1:11:56

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Liberated us, we were able to have a fair bit more food. Liberated us, we were able to have a fair bit more food.

1:12:01

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And some guy over-ate. And some guy over-ate.

1:12:05

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He hadn't been used to this food and he He hadn't been used to this food and he

1:12:08

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managed to get a lot of food from somewhere, and he over-ate and killed himself. [Aaron] Gee. Yes. [John] He died of over-eating. [Aaron] Gee. managed to get a lot of food from somewhere, and he over-ate and killed himself. [Aaron] Gee. Yes. [John] He died of over-eating. [Aaron] Gee.

1:12:18

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It seemed a sad thing to happen. [Aaron] Indeed. It seemed a sad thing to happen. [Aaron] Indeed.

1:12:22

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But the Germans, ah, But the Germans, ah,

1:12:26

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when the Russians moved in, they when the Russians moved in, they

1:12:29

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vacated the, all the guard towers, and the next morning we woke up and the Americans were in the guard towers. [Aaron] Right. [John] Without their rifles, but they were up there. vacated the, all the guard towers, and the next morning we woke up and the Americans were in the guard towers. [Aaron] Right. [John] Without their rifles, but they were up there.

1:12:41

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Forbid us to go Forbid us to go

1:12:44

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out of the camp, even though out of the camp, even though

1:12:47

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Left. [Aaron] Right. [John] But then the mainstream of the Russians within a few hours came through that day, and Left. [Aaron] Right. [John] But then the mainstream of the Russians within a few hours came through that day, and

1:12:57

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instructed the American. instructed the American.

1:13:01

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leaders to open the gates... that we were liberated- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John]-and get out of leaders to open the gates... that we were liberated- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John]-and get out of

1:13:09

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The Guard towers and, uh, we could do what we liked and The Guard towers and, uh, we could do what we liked and

1:13:13

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like most of them, I walked into town with a friend of mine. like most of them, I walked into town with a friend of mine.

1:13:19

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The town of Barth was say 3 or 4 kilometres from our camp. The town of Barth was say 3 or 4 kilometres from our camp.

1:13:24

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and had a look around. And some of the and had a look around. And some of the

1:13:29

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prisoners were being stupid and smashing prisoners were being stupid and smashing

1:13:36

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pubs, glass and pinching- [Aaron] Right. [John] -alcohol and getting drunk and, um, no doubt raping women, or certainly the Russians were. pubs, glass and pinching- [Aaron] Right. [John] -alcohol and getting drunk and, um, no doubt raping women, or certainly the Russians were.

1:13:47

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But, um, my memory of that day, when we went into town for a few hours But, um, my memory of that day, when we went into town for a few hours

1:13:55

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is, um, is, um,

1:13:57

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they look like Mongols-these Russians in their tanks and armoured vehicles... just driving down the tarred streets, and sometimes they'd skid off the road and smash into the shop fronts- [Aaron laughs] - as they skidded on the tar. they look like Mongols-these Russians in their tanks and armoured vehicles... just driving down the tarred streets, and sometimes they'd skid off the road and smash into the shop fronts- [Aaron laughs] - as they skidded on the tar.

1:14:12

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And we weren't far from being squashed between th- one of these, I don't think was a tank, it might have been a tank, a small tank, that just slid off and went into the shop windows, but you had to make a run for it rather than get jammed between them. And we weren't far from being squashed between th- one of these, I don't think was a tank, it might have been a tank, a small tank, that just slid off and went into the shop windows, but you had to make a run for it rather than get jammed between them.

1:14:30

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And the next day after the main Russian sort of front went through, the Americans received, took control again and shut the gates, and wouldn't let anybody in or out. And the next day after the main Russian sort of front went through, the Americans received, took control again and shut the gates, and wouldn't let anybody in or out.

1:14:45

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I know there was a woman who pleaded to be let into the camp, but, ah, she said 'I'll kill myself if you don't, because the Russians are only going to rape me and, um, I know there was a woman who pleaded to be let into the camp, but, ah, she said 'I'll kill myself if you don't, because the Russians are only going to rape me and, um,

1:14:58

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unfortunately, the American Guards wouldn't let her in, and unfortunately, the American Guards wouldn't let her in, and

1:15:04

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she did kill herself... she did kill herself...

1:15:07

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Hearing about that, Hearing about that,

1:15:09

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But, um, that was the way the But, um, that was the way the

1:15:15

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Russians behaved. And they regarded Stalag Luft 1 as quite a prize, because one of the few Russians behaved. And they regarded Stalag Luft 1 as quite a prize, because one of the few

1:15:24

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Officer camps - uh, the only one I know of with all Officers only-Air Force only. Officer camps - uh, the only one I know of with all Officers only-Air Force only.

1:15:33

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And, uh, And, uh,

1:15:35

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they would have liked to have kept us there as long as possible. And, um, they would have liked to have kept us there as long as possible. And, um,

1:15:41

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taken us back through Moscow- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John]... where the taken us back through Moscow- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John]... where the

1:15:48

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... can't think of the name of the Russian ... can't think of the name of the Russian

1:15:51

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Leader in those days. Leader in those days.

1:15:55

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[Aaron] Stalin. [John] Roosevelt and Stalin. Stalin was pretty ruthless of course, and he wanted to have as many ex-P.O.W's - or P.O.W's in Russia- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John]- as a bargaining point at the altar where he was [Aaron] Stalin. [John] Roosevelt and Stalin. Stalin was pretty ruthless of course, and he wanted to have as many ex-P.O.W's - or P.O.W's in Russia- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John]- as a bargaining point at the altar where he was

1:16:11

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bargaining about all sorts of post-war agreements with Roosevelt and Churchill. bargaining about all sorts of post-war agreements with Roosevelt and Churchill.

1:16:21

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And it turned out that there was a German General- a Russian General who had defected with a company of Russians to the German And it turned out that there was a German General- a Russian General who had defected with a company of Russians to the German

1:16:35

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Army- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] - in the Stalingrad area, Army- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] - in the Stalingrad area,

1:16:39

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and he fought against, uh, the Russians. and he fought against, uh, the Russians.

1:16:44

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And the Russians dearly wanted this General who had, uh, defected to the allies, and And the Russians dearly wanted this General who had, uh, defected to the allies, and

1:16:53

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the British had captured him in some part of Germany, and they wanted him back. the British had captured him in some part of Germany, and they wanted him back.

1:16:59

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And they did a deal that if they would let the Stalag Luft 1 people fly out straight away, that they could have this German, And they did a deal that if they would let the Stalag Luft 1 people fly out straight away, that they could have this German,

1:17:11

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Russian-come-German General, and, uh, that I think, is how we managed to get away so quickly. [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] Within a week of the Russians coming- [Aaron] Yeah. [John] -we were flying out and sometimes, uh, and I think our particular camp, which was of course in the eastern Russian-come-German General, and, uh, that I think, is how we managed to get away so quickly. [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] Within a week of the Russians coming- [Aaron] Yeah. [John] -we were flying out and sometimes, uh, and I think our particular camp, which was of course in the eastern

1:17:30

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area the Russians and British where at Rostock about 50 miles to the West, but area the Russians and British where at Rostock about 50 miles to the West, but

1:17:38

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we were well out of their zone. We might have been there for a long time and maybe had to been- go back through Russia like a lot of P.O.W's did. [Aaron] Yes. [John] And the numbers that went into Russia and the numbers that came out were significantly different at times. [Aaron] Hmm. [John] So, the jolly old Russians couldn't be trusted too much, and I think we were very lucky to we were well out of their zone. We might have been there for a long time and maybe had to been- go back through Russia like a lot of P.O.W's did. [Aaron] Yes. [John] And the numbers that went into Russia and the numbers that came out were significantly different at times. [Aaron] Hmm. [John] So, the jolly old Russians couldn't be trusted too much, and I think we were very lucky to

1:18:03

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be flown out with a, be flown out with a,

1:18:06

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many squadrons of many squadrons of

1:18:09

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American American

1:18:14

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bombers. [Aaron] B-17s? [John] Yes, B-17s. [Aaron] Yes. [John] And, ah, there was an aerodrome quite close to our prison camp bombers. [Aaron] B-17s? [John] Yes, B-17s. [Aaron] Yes. [John] And, ah, there was an aerodrome quite close to our prison camp

1:18:24

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Which seemed to have been a small miniature Which seemed to have been a small miniature

1:18:28

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concentration camp. [Aaron] Right. [John] Although we didn't know about it 'til the war was almost over. But, we heard rumours that it was, and there were electric fences around the aerodrome- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] - which was not only an aerodrome, but it was- concentration camp. [Aaron] Right. [John] Although we didn't know about it 'til the war was almost over. But, we heard rumours that it was, and there were electric fences around the aerodrome- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] - which was not only an aerodrome, but it was-

1:18:45

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a lot of the huts were in this a lot of the huts were in this

1:18:48

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confine, which were obviously... and it was said that just before the war ended, just before the Russians came, that they put all these, uh... I take it Jewish people... in a boat and took it out into the Baltic Sea, and sunk it. [Aaron] Oh really. [John] Yeah, that's how I heard it. And confine, which were obviously... and it was said that just before the war ended, just before the Russians came, that they put all these, uh... I take it Jewish people... in a boat and took it out into the Baltic Sea, and sunk it. [Aaron] Oh really. [John] Yeah, that's how I heard it. And

1:19:08

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we were there, certainly, we were there, certainly,

1:19:10

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20-uh, 6 or 7 days later, and all marched in 20-uh, 6 or 7 days later, and all marched in

1:19:16

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to the row of to the row of

1:19:20

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Flying Fortresses coming in and out and Flying Fortresses coming in and out and

1:19:23

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we didn't see any prisoners anywhere. [Aaron] Yeah, yeah, right. [John] I think that could have happened. we didn't see any prisoners anywhere. [Aaron] Yeah, yeah, right. [John] I think that could have happened.

1:19:32

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But we were safely home with But we were safely home with

1:19:36

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hundreds, I suppose, of flying fortresses came in to take out hundreds, I suppose, of flying fortresses came in to take out

1:19:43

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all those all those

1:19:46

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ten or twelve thousand. ten or twelve thousand.

1:19:49

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Yes. Yes.

1:19:50

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And so what happened once you- once you got back to the United Kingdom? What was the...? I'm assuming there was a debriefing process? And so what happened once you- once you got back to the United Kingdom? What was the...? I'm assuming there was a debriefing process?

1:19:59

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I don't think there was actually, Aaron. [Aaron] Yeah? [John] I can remember we finished up landing at Ford Airfield, I don't think there was actually, Aaron. [Aaron] Yeah? [John] I can remember we finished up landing at Ford Airfield,

1:20:09

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Must of been... I thought there were a lot of Americans with us, or whether we trans- Must of been... I thought there were a lot of Americans with us, or whether we trans-

1:20:15

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ship from ship from

1:20:18

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where we landed, but, where we landed, but,

1:20:21

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Ford was very near Brighton, and Ford was very near Brighton, and

1:20:26

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somehow we got to somehow we got to

1:20:28

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Ford Airfield and then just taken by buses back to Ford Airfield and then just taken by buses back to

1:20:32

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Brighton, where the embarkation and reception Depot for Australians Brighton, where the embarkation and reception Depot for Australians

1:20:38

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always was. [Aaron] Right. [John] Or was originally Bournemouth at the beginning of the war and then was moved to Brighton. And the R.A.A.F had the big hotels: the Metropole and the Grand, and all those other big hotels along the seafront always was. [Aaron] Right. [John] Or was originally Bournemouth at the beginning of the war and then was moved to Brighton. And the R.A.A.F had the big hotels: the Metropole and the Grand, and all those other big hotels along the seafront

1:20:55

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taken over by the RAAF. taken over by the RAAF.

1:20:58

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So we were back there the next day, So we were back there the next day,

1:21:02

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And of course, had a medical and dental examination and And of course, had a medical and dental examination and

1:21:08

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they were very good. I think I was a bit underweight, like a lot of others, and they put us on double rations for a month in Brighton, before we were talked about going home. [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] And given leave of course. And they were very good. I think I was a bit underweight, like a lot of others, and they put us on double rations for a month in Brighton, before we were talked about going home. [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] And given leave of course. And

1:21:28

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um, um,

1:21:29

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So we did quite well for ourselves for a month with extra food and all the rest of it. [Aaron] Yes. [John] That ended So we did quite well for ourselves for a month with extra food and all the rest of it. [Aaron] Yes. [John] That ended

1:21:39

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the saga of our time in England. the saga of our time in England.

1:21:46

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In hindsight, it could have been worse. [Aaron] Yes, that's- that's very true. It could have been quite a different story if you- if you hadn't made it out of the aircraft in the first place. In hindsight, it could have been worse. [Aaron] Yes, that's- that's very true. It could have been quite a different story if you- if you hadn't made it out of the aircraft in the first place.

1:21:58

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Which of course is bit of a complex story with ours. We had Which of course is bit of a complex story with ours. We had

1:22:04

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not only our own crew of six, which were not only our own crew of six, which were

1:22:08

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multinational, er, only multinational, er, only

1:22:12

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1 British R.A.F. 1 British R.A.F.

1:22:17

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our navigator Mark ?Patterhill?, our navigator Mark ?Patterhill?,

1:22:20

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two Canadians, One South African and two two Canadians, One South African and two

1:22:24

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Australians. [Aaron] But on that- on that specific trip to to Holland you were carrying a couple of other passengers also. [John] We were carrying 2 or 3, which is - still I'm not too sure about. But we certainly had 2 who were coming along. I think they were young Navy boys that were designated to help throwing out the panniers of supplies to the Australians. [Aaron] But on that- on that specific trip to to Holland you were carrying a couple of other passengers also. [John] We were carrying 2 or 3, which is - still I'm not too sure about. But we certainly had 2 who were coming along. I think they were young Navy boys that were designated to help throwing out the panniers of supplies to the

1:22:51

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paratroopers and glider pilots down below. paratroopers and glider pilots down below.

1:22:59

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But, um, But, um,

1:23:05

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those two, and there was another those two, and there was another

1:23:07

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guy, I think, in our plane who approached me about his, he rushed up to me just as we were about to bail out and said his paratroop-, his parachute was guy, I think, in our plane who approached me about his, he rushed up to me just as we were about to bail out and said his paratroop-, his parachute was

1:23:23

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at the aft end of the aircraft, at the aft end of the aircraft,

1:23:26

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bay... [woman's voice: "A sailing boat like that"] bay... [woman's voice: "A sailing boat like that"]

1:23:32

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fly. fly.

1:23:34

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he couldn't get his parachute because the flames were between him and that, and- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] "Could he jump out on my back?" he couldn't get his parachute because the flames were between him and that, and- [Aaron] Uh-hmm. [John] "Could he jump out on my back?"

1:23:41

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And I don't know to this day whether he did or he didn't. But And I don't know to this day whether he did or he didn't. But

1:23:46

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he asked me and, ah, he asked me and, ah,

1:23:49

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well he's a fairly slight chap like me and I said 'yes, hold on tight' and I jumped out through the well he's a fairly slight chap like me and I said 'yes, hold on tight' and I jumped out through the

1:23:56

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hatch hatch

1:23:58

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where the Bomb Aimer would lie- [Aaron] Hmm. [John] -up forward, and where the Bomb Aimer would lie- [Aaron] Hmm. [John] -up forward, and

1:24:03

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I don't know whether he I don't know whether he

1:24:06

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came with me. I don't think in in the end he did. I think he must have came with me. I don't think in in the end he did. I think he must have

1:24:11

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Stayed in the aircraft, but Keith Proud said he went through the Stayed in the aircraft, but Keith Proud said he went through the

1:24:15

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whole plane, and could whole plane, and could

1:24:18

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see there was nobody else before he- [Aaron] He jumped. [John]- he jumped himself. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] But our engineer he went out on one of the panniers. I think he didn't have his parachute handy and he just went down on a pannier- [Aaron] Right] [John] -er, parachute, which seemed to be see there was nobody else before he- [Aaron] He jumped. [John]- he jumped himself. [Aaron] Yeah. [John] But our engineer he went out on one of the panniers. I think he didn't have his parachute handy and he just went down on a pannier- [Aaron] Right] [John] -er, parachute, which seemed to be

1:24:37

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a good idea. [Aaron] Yes! Well, the only option available to him. a good idea. [Aaron] Yes! Well, the only option available to him.

1:24:43

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But, um, But, um,

1:24:46

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thinking of that, I do recall there were two or three thinking of that, I do recall there were two or three

1:24:50

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people in our prison camp who had been blown out or got out of their plane alive without a parachute, and- [Aaron] Yes. [John] -at 20 odd thousand feet and lived through it by landing in snow drifts or having their fall mainly broken with high trees and snow underneath them. [Aaron] That's incredible, that's- that's an amazing story. [laughs] [John] It is when you think of it. people in our prison camp who had been blown out or got out of their plane alive without a parachute, and- [Aaron] Yes. [John] -at 20 odd thousand feet and lived through it by landing in snow drifts or having their fall mainly broken with high trees and snow underneath them. [Aaron] That's incredible, that's- that's an amazing story. [laughs] [John] It is when you think of it.

1:25:16

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The other The other

1:25:18

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incident, I always remembered as quite strange how an American fighter pilot had shot a Spitfire down- [Aaron laughs] -not being too good at incident, I always remembered as quite strange how an American fighter pilot had shot a Spitfire down- [Aaron laughs] -not being too good at

1:25:28

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air recognition and, uh- aircraft recognition, and thought he was shooting at air recognition and, uh- aircraft recognition, and thought he was shooting at

1:25:35

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109, 109,

1:25:39

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and then ran into the wreckage of the Spitfire and had to bail out himself. [Aaron] Oh God. [John] And they were both in our prison camp and apparently forgave each other and- [Aaron] Oh dear! and then ran into the wreckage of the Spitfire and had to bail out himself. [Aaron] Oh God. [John] And they were both in our prison camp and apparently forgave each other and- [Aaron] Oh dear!

1:25:52

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[John] - both lived to tell the story. [Aaron] Well John, thank you very much for your- for sitting down and telling me your story. Yet again, it's been a phenomenal interview. [John] It's been a delight to talk with you, Aaron, and [John] - both lived to tell the story. [Aaron] Well John, thank you very much for your- for sitting down and telling me your story. Yet again, it's been a phenomenal interview. [John] It's been a delight to talk with you, Aaron, and

1:26:09

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thank you for taking it all down. [Aaron] Great. Thank you very much John. thank you for taking it all down. [Aaron] Great. Thank you very much John.

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