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Identification is tape one, of an interview recorded on the 24th of November 1989 in Perth with Fred Marchese who trained in the 5th anti aircraft battery, then served in Darwin in 1943 and 1944, as an anti aircraft gunner and then overseas with the 63rd Infantry Battalion on Morotai and Ambon Islands. The interviewer is Jane Fleming-Panegyres. Identification is tape one, of an interview recorded on the 24th of November 1989 in Perth with Fred Marchese who trained in the 5th anti aircraft battery, then served in Darwin in 1943 and 1944, as an anti aircraft gunner and then overseas with the 63rd Infantry Battalion on Morotai and Ambon Islands. The interviewer is Jane Fleming-Panegyres.
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End of identification of Tape 1. End of identification of Tape 1.
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[Jane] Now your legal name, and you're generally known as Fred, but in fact you're baptised name was an Italian... [Fred] Yeah, I was named after me Grandfather, Fortunato. [Jane] Now your legal name, and you're generally known as Fred, but in fact you're baptised name was an Italian... [Fred] Yeah, I was named after me Grandfather, Fortunato.
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[Fred] Which is similar to fortunate. The only thing there, where there is an 'e', there is an 'o'! That's the only difference. [Jane] And what made you decide to change your name? [Fred] Well, actually it wasn't that I was made to change me name. I knocked around with kids, you know, British children of British descent and we used to run around together, around Fremantle, so I suppose they couldn't pronounce my name. So somebody must have suggested I [Fred] Which is similar to fortunate. The only thing there, where there is an 'e', there is an 'o'! That's the only difference. [Jane] And what made you decide to change your name? [Fred] Well, actually it wasn't that I was made to change me name. I knocked around with kids, you know, British children of British descent and we used to run around together, around Fremantle, so I suppose they couldn't pronounce my name. So somebody must have suggested I
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Call him Fred. And from that day onwards, I'm talking about the time where I'd be around about maybe six years of age, maybe a little bit earlier. Thereabouts that. So the name stuck to me. Call him Fred. And from that day onwards, I'm talking about the time where I'd be around about maybe six years of age, maybe a little bit earlier. Thereabouts that. So the name stuck to me.
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and  and 
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its being a good thing really, because it's hard to tell people your European name because 9 times out of 10 they wouldn't be able to pronounce it. But you actually got around to changing it officially . Yeah, eventually I my Christian names Fred just plain Fred and Joseph, which was a confirmation name when I got confirmed. its being a good thing really, because it's hard to tell people your European name because 9 times out of 10 they wouldn't be able to pronounce it. But you actually got around to changing it officially . Yeah, eventually I my Christian names Fred just plain Fred and Joseph, which was a confirmation name when I got confirmed.
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[Fred] And that's about it. [Jane] Where did your parents come from in Italy? [Fred] Yeah. My parents came from a place called Mum come from Capo d'Orlando [Fred] And that's about it. [Jane] Where did your parents come from in Italy? [Fred] Yeah. My parents came from a place called Mum come from Capo d'Orlando
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in Sicily. in Sicily.
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and Dad come not far distant a place called Milazzo. and Dad come not far distant a place called Milazzo.
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And of course, eventually when they got married - they got married at a place called Capo d'Orlando And of course, eventually when they got married - they got married at a place called Capo d'Orlando
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But Dad, he was in the Italian Navy as a young chap,  But Dad, he was in the Italian Navy as a young chap, 
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and  and 
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he went on to go to China  he went on to go to China 
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during the Boxer rebellion. during the Boxer rebellion.
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And when that was completed  And when that was completed 
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he more or less left Italy and he came to Australia. he more or less left Italy and he came to Australia.
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By memory, I'd say between  By memory, I'd say between 
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[Fred] 1902 to maybe 1904, but that's a guess, but no later than 1904, I'd say. [Jane] Do you know why he chose Australia? Did he have friends out here ? Or any family? [Fred] Well, it's quite possible that there might have been  [Fred] 1902 to maybe 1904, but that's a guess, but no later than 1904, I'd say. [Jane] Do you know why he chose Australia? Did he have friends out here ? Or any family? [Fred] Well, it's quite possible that there might have been 
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a relation or a friend that came out here.  a relation or a friend that came out here. 
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Now, the people that I refer to  Now, the people that I refer to 
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come out around about that era, maybe some  come out around about that era, maybe some 
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towards the late 1800's to very early 1900's and they all come from  towards the late 1800's to very early 1900's and they all come from 
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areas very close to one another. areas very close to one another.
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And  And 
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of course, when they came out here, well, their employment  of course, when they came out here, well, their employment 
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was fishing. was fishing.
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The people that I knew well were mainly fishing  The people that I knew well were mainly fishing 
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and and
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Of course, eventually when children come along  Of course, eventually when children come along 
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they either went fishing,  they either went fishing, 
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some that were more fortunate learned a trade as a barber or a hairdresser  some that were more fortunate learned a trade as a barber or a hairdresser 
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and others, boot-makers. and others, boot-makers.
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[Fred] And that was about it. But most of the children, went either fishing or working in gardens, working in fish shops and things of that nature. [Jane] You were actually born though down in timber country? [Fred] Yes, I was born down at uh Wellington Mills. [Fred] And that was about it. But most of the children, went either fishing or working in gardens, working in fish shops and things of that nature. [Jane] You were actually born though down in timber country? [Fred] Yes, I was born down at uh Wellington Mills.
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Which is not far from Bunbury. Which is not far from Bunbury.
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On the 22nd of April, 1918. On the 22nd of April, 1918.
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It was policy not only by my father, but many other men where they left the fishing industry and went to work in timber mills. It was policy not only by my father, but many other men where they left the fishing industry and went to work in timber mills.
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And then they'd probably go back fishing again. And then they'd probably go back fishing again.
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and that was sort of the procedure of that era. and that was sort of the procedure of that era.
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I believe during the First World War,  I believe during the First World War, 
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there was quite a few of them down at Wellington Mills. there was quite a few of them down at Wellington Mills.
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And I can also remember my Auntie telling me that the womenfolk used to do a lot of knitting for the soldiers. And I can also remember my Auntie telling me that the womenfolk used to do a lot of knitting for the soldiers.
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You know, that were in the First World War. They used to do quite a bit of knitting, my Aunty, and she was about 93 when she passed on. You know, that were in the First World War. They used to do quite a bit of knitting, my Aunty, and she was about 93 when she passed on.
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[Fred] What else can I tell you? [Jane] Now you grew up mainly though in Fremantle your father moved back fairly permanently did he? [Fred] Yes, we  [Fred] What else can I tell you? [Jane] Now you grew up mainly though in Fremantle your father moved back fairly permanently did he? [Fred] Yes, we 
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went to Geraldton went to Geraldton
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At one period of time. At one period of time.
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Where I - one of my brother - deceased brothers was born. Where I - one of my brother - deceased brothers was born.
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He was born there in 1922. He was born there in 1922.
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Of course when we left Geraldton and we come back to Norfolk Street again  Of course when we left Geraldton and we come back to Norfolk Street again 
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and I suppose we were there for a few years  and I suppose we were there for a few years 
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and then we left  and then we left 
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Fremantle and went to Mornington Mills. Fremantle and went to Mornington Mills.
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and we came back to Freemantle Centenary year 1929. and we came back to Freemantle Centenary year 1929.
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I had an elder brother. He was born in Fremantle. I had an elder brother. He was born in Fremantle.
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In fact, it's unbelievable. He was born the day the Sydney sank the Emden in 1914. In fact, it's unbelievable. He was born the day the Sydney sank the Emden in 1914.
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'Course, there's another sister of mine.  'Course, there's another sister of mine. 
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She was born at Wellington Mills, also, my sister Vincenza, but she eventually got the name as Vincy. She was born at Wellington Mills, also, my sister Vincenza, but she eventually got the name as Vincy.
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Then there was - I told you, Silv - he was born in Geraldton. Then there was - I told you, Silv - he was born in Geraldton.
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My sister, Mary, she was born in 1928,  My sister, Mary, she was born in 1928, 
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In Mornington Mills. I forgot to mention my brother Joe. He was born in Norfolk St, Fremantle in 1925. In Mornington Mills. I forgot to mention my brother Joe. He was born in Norfolk St, Fremantle in 1925.
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There was two infant children that I don't remember. There was two infant children that I don't remember.
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Because one died in 1917 during the flu epidemic. Because one died in 1917 during the flu epidemic.
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In all around the Metropolitan area. In all around the Metropolitan area.
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My other brother, his name was Antonio, and he died in 1922 in Fremantle, but I- it'd be foolish of me to say I don't remember him. There was two that I don't remember. The only one to come from Italy was my sister Percilia.  My other brother, his name was Antonio, and he died in 1922 in Fremantle, but I- it'd be foolish of me to say I don't remember him. There was two that I don't remember. The only one to come from Italy was my sister Percilia. 
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She was born in 1910, December 1910, and she came out on the boat with my mother. She was born in 1910, December 1910, and she came out on the boat with my mother.
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In 1912.  In 1912. 
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But the rest of us were all born in Australia. But the rest of us were all born in Australia.
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[Jane] So your parents were married before your father came out here or did he go back and then marry your mother? [Fred] No - [Jane] and come out again? [Fred] He went back in 1909  [Jane] So your parents were married before your father came out here or did he go back and then marry your mother? [Fred] No - [Jane] and come out again? [Fred] He went back in 1909 
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or thereabouts  or thereabouts 
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got married  got married 
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And then Mum followed in 1912. And then Mum followed in 1912.
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[Fred] and as I says, there was only one child born in Italy, which was me elder sister Priscilla. [Jane] Now you went to school in Fremantle due to mainly? [Fred] I started school in Fremantle, Alma Street. I went to what they call the  [Fred] and as I says, there was only one child born in Italy, which was me elder sister Priscilla. [Jane] Now you went to school in Fremantle due to mainly? [Fred] I started school in Fremantle, Alma Street. I went to what they call the 
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Well, the infant's school I 'spose. And I was there for  Well, the infant's school I 'spose. And I was there for 
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sometime before we shifted to  sometime before we shifted to 
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Mornington Mills. Mornington Mills.
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What else can I tell you? That's right, they did want me to go to  What else can I tell you? That's right, they did want me to go to 
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[Fred] The school before you start school what they called? [Jane] Kindergarten? [Fred] Kindergarten. But I wouldn't go. I was a stubborn kid. [Fred] The school before you start school what they called? [Jane] Kindergarten? [Fred] Kindergarten. But I wouldn't go. I was a stubborn kid.
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[Jane] You were - also went to school in Mornington Mills.  [Fred] Oh yes. Well by then I was a bit older. [Jane] You were - also went to school in Mornington Mills.  [Fred] Oh yes. Well by then I was a bit older.
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I think we were there not quite three years. I think we were there not quite three years.
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When I left there, I think I was in  When I left there, I think I was in 
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I had - that's right  I had - that's right 
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I was in 3rd or 4th standard, by memory. I was in 3rd or 4th standard, by memory.
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And eventually we come back to Fremantle. And eventually we come back to Fremantle.
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[Fred] and once again, I don't know - the foolish thing. They asked me what class I was in so to be smart  I told him I was in 3rd standard so it would be easier for me. But they're just the pranks I suppose kids got up to. [Jane] What sort of a school had it been in Mornington Mills one teacher or more than one? [Fred] Ah no, there was um- it was a state school. [Fred] and once again, I don't know - the foolish thing. They asked me what class I was in so to be smart  I told him I was in 3rd standard so it would be easier for me. But they're just the pranks I suppose kids got up to. [Jane] What sort of a school had it been in Mornington Mills one teacher or more than one? [Fred] Ah no, there was um- it was a state school.
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I can still remember the headmaster  I can still remember the headmaster 
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His name was Mr Nicholas. His name was Mr Nicholas.
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There's another teacher that taught me - Mr. Smart  There's another teacher that taught me - Mr. Smart 
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and  and 
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there was a Miss Reed. there was a Miss Reed.
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That was a well known name down the timber mills - Reed. That was a well known name down the timber mills - Reed.
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And our mill bosses and whatever  And our mill bosses and whatever 
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and that's the only three teachers I remember Reed, Smart and Nicholas. and that's the only three teachers I remember Reed, Smart and Nicholas.
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But uh. But uh.
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oh no!  I enjoyed myself. I enjoyed the kids  I went to school with. oh no!  I enjoyed myself. I enjoyed the kids  I went to school with.
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There's the odd time where somebody might make some smutty remark, and then you stood up and be counted you know what I mean. In fact, I can remember a time  There's the odd time where somebody might make some smutty remark, and then you stood up and be counted you know what I mean. In fact, I can remember a time 
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after school I kept getting pestered so when we got near the mill - there used to be the mill,  after school I kept getting pestered so when we got near the mill - there used to be the mill, 
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Butcher shop, grocery shop, post office all close together and course I only lived across the road from the mill. We were the close one of the closest houses to the mill. In fact, prior to us going there one of the mill bosses lived in there, but any way to cut a long story short, we got stuck into a bit of a fight outside the post office and the next thing you know, everybody knocked off  Butcher shop, grocery shop, post office all close together and course I only lived across the road from the mill. We were the close one of the closest houses to the mill. In fact, prior to us going there one of the mill bosses lived in there, but any way to cut a long story short, we got stuck into a bit of a fight outside the post office and the next thing you know, everybody knocked off 
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from the mill to watch us, and of course when I went home, I didn't say nothing to me father. from the mill to watch us, and of course when I went home, I didn't say nothing to me father.
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[Fred] Of course Dad was, you know, quite strict and  anyhow, he found out the next day somebody said to him he said your boys pretty good. [Jane] So what started the fight? What did they say? [Fred] Well, I suppose some smutty remark being of European nationality, I suppose. And 'cause I did as I always says, I mixed with a lot of British children of British descent. And of course I think they  [Fred] Of course Dad was, you know, quite strict and  anyhow, he found out the next day somebody said to him he said your boys pretty good. [Jane] So what started the fight? What did they say? [Fred] Well, I suppose some smutty remark being of European nationality, I suppose. And 'cause I did as I always says, I mixed with a lot of British children of British descent. And of course I think they 
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In some way they taught me to stand up. I can remember one day it back at school and at South Terrace. Somebody was giving me a hard time and one of me mates that I knocked around with, he said "Go on Fred," he said "You can beat him." And I think that more or less prompted me to stand on 2 feet. There was another Italian chap or friend of our other family. As kids, he used to get around with a pair of boxing gloves. In some way they taught me to stand up. I can remember one day it back at school and at South Terrace. Somebody was giving me a hard time and one of me mates that I knocked around with, he said "Go on Fred," he said "You can beat him." And I think that more or less prompted me to stand on 2 feet. There was another Italian chap or friend of our other family. As kids, he used to get around with a pair of boxing gloves.
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And he used to get kids to put on the gloves and have a bit of a punch. And I think that also helped a bit. You know what I mean? And he used to get kids to put on the gloves and have a bit of a punch. And I think that also helped a bit. You know what I mean?
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But I was never a - a vicious person, never in my life. But I was never a - a vicious person, never in my life.
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I never looked for trouble, but I didn't like getting pushed, but you had to be intelligent as well. You can't fight the world. I was a great believer -  you photograph their faces  I never looked for trouble, but I didn't like getting pushed, but you had to be intelligent as well. You can't fight the world. I was a great believer -  you photograph their faces 
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and then when you met him on their own, you'd see how good they were. You found out they weren't too good. [Jane] Yeah. When you say photograph - in the memory? You kept it in your memory? [Fred] Yeah, I had a good memory for faces etc. And that was my life throughout when I got older naturally. and then when you met him on their own, you'd see how good they were. You found out they weren't too good. [Jane] Yeah. When you say photograph - in the memory? You kept it in your memory? [Fred] Yeah, I had a good memory for faces etc. And that was my life throughout when I got older naturally.
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and I started working in this fish shop in Market Street, Fremantle. and I started working in this fish shop in Market Street, Fremantle.
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I used to love dancing. Well I picked it up. And I used to love to go dancing while I go as far as Perth with a late friend of mine. We were good buddies. We'd go to Perth, all the dances in Fremantle and then in different periods of the year, you might go to a dance at Cottesloe, Mosman Park you would go to Scarborough,  I used to love dancing. Well I picked it up. And I used to love to go dancing while I go as far as Perth with a late friend of mine. We were good buddies. We'd go to Perth, all the dances in Fremantle and then in different periods of the year, you might go to a dance at Cottesloe, Mosman Park you would go to Scarborough, 
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Hamilton Hill, Beaconsfield, and places like that. Which was your entertainment and enjoyment. But as I said once again  Hamilton Hill, Beaconsfield, and places like that. Which was your entertainment and enjoyment. But as I said once again 
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you had occasions where there'd be a problem, but if you was sort of sensible, it didn't last too long. [Jane] When you say problem what people picking on you because of you background or ...? [Fred] your nationality. But as I said, once again I had a lot of good Australian friends. you had occasions where there'd be a problem, but if you was sort of sensible, it didn't last too long. [Jane] When you say problem what people picking on you because of you background or ...? [Fred] your nationality. But as I said, once again I had a lot of good Australian friends.
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Well, I can mention something to you and will make you laugh when I tell ya. Well, I can mention something to you and will make you laugh when I tell ya.
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There was a period of time - North Fremantle was, you know, known to be a pretty tough sort of a joint. There was a period of time - North Fremantle was, you know, known to be a pretty tough sort of a joint.
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And I can remember sometimes I might be escorting a girl home  And I can remember sometimes I might be escorting a girl home 
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Who lived over North Fremantle and you'd get to the bridge  Who lived over North Fremantle and you'd get to the bridge 
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And that's where the problems used to start and you'd hear voices from the other side saying, who's this coming over? Who's this? And then you'd hear somebody say, oh, it's Fred from the fish shop. Let him through. So I was lucky in that respect, but that did occur. But as I says, I was pretty well known, and I suppose I had a lot of good friends. And that's where the problems used to start and you'd hear voices from the other side saying, who's this coming over? Who's this? And then you'd hear somebody say, oh, it's Fred from the fish shop. Let him through. So I was lucky in that respect, but that did occur. But as I says, I was pretty well known, and I suppose I had a lot of good friends.
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I can't say I had bad friends because I'd be telling fibs. But all in all, I think my family, brothers. We had a lot of good Aussie mates and I always notice one things.  I can't say I had bad friends because I'd be telling fibs. But all in all, I think my family, brothers. We had a lot of good Aussie mates and I always notice one things. 
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European - children of European descent that make good Australian friends they are friends for throughout their life, never-ending and I'll tell you what. They'll stick by ya more than anybody else. European - children of European descent that make good Australian friends they are friends for throughout their life, never-ending and I'll tell you what. They'll stick by ya more than anybody else.
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[Fred] Now, I must admit that, sure. [Jane] What age were you when you left school? [Fred] Now, I must admit that, sure. [Jane] What age were you when you left school?
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I was about 13 and 8 months. I was about 13 and 8 months.
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And of course I - up till then I'd had been helping my late uncle, who was very good to me. He used to give me 10 shillings a week  And of course I - up till then I'd had been helping my late uncle, who was very good to me. He used to give me 10 shillings a week 
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which I used to  which I used to 
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pass on to my mother because things were pretty tough. And - but when I got to the period where I was leaving school, I decided I'd give a fling at fishing. pass on to my mother because things were pretty tough. And - but when I got to the period where I was leaving school, I decided I'd give a fling at fishing.
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and in those days, the younger lads, they'd be put with a relation or somebody on a particular boat, so I went with my late cousin Joe Marchese. He had a fishing boat called the Lovina, which was a  and in those days, the younger lads, they'd be put with a relation or somebody on a particular boat, so I went with my late cousin Joe Marchese. He had a fishing boat called the Lovina, which was a 
17:44

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cray boat, it  had a crayfish well, those days they used to have a well in the center of the boat built up and they used to carry their crayfish alive and I suppose I went for one season with him and  cray boat, it  had a crayfish well, those days they used to have a well in the center of the boat built up and they used to carry their crayfish alive and I suppose I went for one season with him and 
18:03

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in fact, as I say  in fact, as I say 
18:06

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people don't realise how bad the fishing game was for those people that were in fishing. There was no price. people don't realise how bad the fishing game was for those people that were in fishing. There was no price.
18:18

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Cary fish was  Cary fish was 
18:20

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few shillings a dozen. few shillings a dozen.
18:23

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He would get snapper, a penny halfpenny a pound. He would get snapper, a penny halfpenny a pound.
18:27

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Jewfish tuppence farthing, Jewfish tuppence farthing,
18:30

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herron, whiting, herron, whiting,
18:33

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skipping fish of that nature were very cheap. Cobblers they just about give em away, and the same was crabs and rock cod. skipping fish of that nature were very cheap. Cobblers they just about give em away, and the same was crabs and rock cod.
18:44

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No - no price for him, you know. So as I says, I stayed first season. In fact, at one time and not too many would know this  No - no price for him, you know. So as I says, I stayed first season. In fact, at one time and not too many would know this 
18:57

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we used to take crayfish  we used to take crayfish 
18:59

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by boat to Rockingham. by boat to Rockingham.
19:02

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And we used to fill what I used to have like a cray box under the jetty and we used to fill up the cray box up with crayfish and come back to Fremantle. And I don't think too many ever knew that. And we used to fill what I used to have like a cray box under the jetty and we used to fill up the cray box up with crayfish and come back to Fremantle. And I don't think too many ever knew that.
19:18

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Of course, the fishing ?cray fishing? men in Fremantle, they had cray boxes under the jetty all so. Of course, the fishing ?cray fishing? men in Fremantle, they had cray boxes under the jetty all so.
19:27

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But once again, I say there was very little. But once again, I say there was very little.
19:31

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price for it. price for it.
19:33

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What else was I going to tell you? I can remember a time there used to be fishermen that they used to refer to them as the Rockingham company. I don't know if you ever heard of them. What else was I going to tell you? I can remember a time there used to be fishermen that they used to refer to them as the Rockingham company. I don't know if you ever heard of them.
19:46

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They were Italian fisherman and they was stationed at Point Peron. I think they were involved in as far as Safety Bay they were involved. They were Italian fisherman and they was stationed at Point Peron. I think they were involved in as far as Safety Bay they were involved.
19:59

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And they lived in this hut on Point Peron and nothing on the floor. Just sand. And they lived in this hut on Point Peron and nothing on the floor. Just sand.
20:07

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They had a big - they used to have a fire going all through the night. They had a big - they used to have a fire going all through the night.
20:15

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In this hut with their billy of coffee alongside, and how I know this at one time, when I  went fishing with my late father and they bought a boat which my late uncle called the London Bell, which was a sailing boat over, you know, on the river and of course eventually they done it up as a fishing boat. In this hut with their billy of coffee alongside, and how I know this at one time, when I  went fishing with my late father and they bought a boat which my late uncle called the London Bell, which was a sailing boat over, you know, on the river and of course eventually they done it up as a fishing boat.
20:43

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They changed the name. By memory I think Dad called it La Paloma, meaning the dove I think by memory, and that's how I come to go there to Rockingham because we stayed there for the few weeks with getting this boat changed. Getting a new deck coaming, mast  etc. Dad made all the sails because he went to sea on sailing ships. They changed the name. By memory I think Dad called it La Paloma, meaning the dove I think by memory, and that's how I come to go there to Rockingham because we stayed there for the few weeks with getting this boat changed. Getting a new deck coaming, mast  etc. Dad made all the sails because he went to sea on sailing ships.
21:11

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Prior to him joining the Italian navy and he was quite brilliant really, and  Prior to him joining the Italian navy and he was quite brilliant really, and 
21:21

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I went fishing with me late Father, but prior to getting away from the Rockingham Company I  can remember as a kid being down the Fremantle fish market and this double ender, which they had called the Aquila  I went fishing with me late Father, but prior to getting away from the Rockingham Company I  can remember as a kid being down the Fremantle fish market and this double ender, which they had called the Aquila 
21:37

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came in loaded with salmon. came in loaded with salmon.
21:40

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So the skipper, I think that was policy in those days, the Skipper  So the skipper, I think that was policy in those days, the Skipper 
21:45

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Came off the boat into the market trying to get a price for his salmon. The price was so good he went back on his boat, they went out a fair way from the Fisherman's ?mold? and they dumped all the fish in the ocean, so it gives you a rough idea. People don't want to talk about hard times. Came off the boat into the market trying to get a price for his salmon. The price was so good he went back on his boat, they went out a fair way from the Fisherman's ?mold? and they dumped all the fish in the ocean, so it gives you a rough idea. People don't want to talk about hard times.
22:10

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[Fred] What else could I tell you now? [Jane] You would have had to leave school when you did, you know, in order to - [Fred] well - [Jane] help at home,I suppose. But would you have liked to have gone on any longer? [Fred] What else could I tell you now? [Jane] You would have had to leave school when you did, you know, in order to - [Fred] well - [Jane] help at home,I suppose. But would you have liked to have gone on any longer?
22:23

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Well, put it this way, I feel, ah - I think I had the ability and so did my eldest brother - he was brilliant. In fact its head master at Mornington  told me dad he is the best kid in the school but unfortunately we are in that circumstance and not only us. Well, put it this way, I feel, ah - I think I had the ability and so did my eldest brother - he was brilliant. In fact its head master at Mornington  told me dad he is the best kid in the school but unfortunately we are in that circumstance and not only us.
22:44

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Most kids were in a similar. Most kids were in a similar position where we run around to help our family. Most kids were in a similar. Most kids were in a similar position where we run around to help our family.
22:53

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If you're told kids this today, they'd laugh that was in the old days, but as I says, I can remember three of us brothers because the other one was a bit young. We used to get up at -  If you're told kids this today, they'd laugh that was in the old days, but as I says, I can remember three of us brothers because the other one was a bit young. We used to get up at - 
23:08

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with Dad and go down the fish market, I suppose no later than 5:00 to 6:00 o'clock. No later, because Dad at sometimes when they went fishing they left, you know 4:00 o'clock-ish around about that time. with Dad and go down the fish market, I suppose no later than 5:00 to 6:00 o'clock. No later, because Dad at sometimes when they went fishing they left, you know 4:00 o'clock-ish around about that time.
23:22

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and we used to get down the market. And if I told you  and we used to get down the market. And if I told you 
23:28

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my late my late
23:31

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a cousin of ours, he used to open the markets up and it used to be comical in some times - it was - they had a little door to get into through the big door before they open the sliding door. So if you just imagine adults pushing up against the sliding door because they want to get into the markets to get an early position where they'd sell early, you know. a cousin of ours, he used to open the markets up and it used to be comical in some times - it was - they had a little door to get into through the big door before they open the sliding door. So if you just imagine adults pushing up against the sliding door because they want to get into the markets to get an early position where they'd sell early, you know.
23:58

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And I can remember my cousin - ah cousin to my mother really - cursing and  whatsitcalled - swearing. Anyhow, eventually the doors swing open and they'd be  men running through paddles on their shoulder. Kids running through too, and dogs. And I can remember my cousin - ah cousin to my mother really - cursing and  whatsitcalled - swearing. Anyhow, eventually the doors swing open and they'd be  men running through paddles on their shoulder. Kids running through too, and dogs.
24:17

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Anyhow, I'd get their position where possible in the fish market and things that quieten down a bit eventually, and because then you'd have the trolley  Anyhow, I'd get their position where possible in the fish market and things that quieten down a bit eventually, and because then you'd have the trolley 
24:31

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Early in the piece, the market used to be right at the end of the jetty. Early in the piece, the market used to be right at the end of the jetty.
24:36

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When we come back from Mornington Mills, the market was being shifted to where it is today, but I don't think it's similar to like it used to be, you know what I mean? And of course the fishermen are bringing their fish etc. Kids would be helping to push the trolley and so on and 'course they were good hearted. It'd been nothing to get a feed of fish. If I told you one day  When we come back from Mornington Mills, the market was being shifted to where it is today, but I don't think it's similar to like it used to be, you know what I mean? And of course the fishermen are bringing their fish etc. Kids would be helping to push the trolley and so on and 'course they were good hearted. It'd been nothing to get a feed of fish. If I told you one day 
25:05

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One of the chappies I was giving a bit of a hand to. I don't know whether you know the Apple dump cases. One of the chappies I was giving a bit of a hand to. I don't know whether you know the Apple dump cases.
25:12

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They gave me one of those boxes full of fish, 'cause what I'd do, I'd sell them. There's always somebody ready to buy 'em off ya. Sometimes you gotta sell them before going to school. They gave me one of those boxes full of fish, 'cause what I'd do, I'd sell them. There's always somebody ready to buy 'em off ya. Sometimes you gotta sell them before going to school.
25:28

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Where am I, I'm getting ahead of myself. So what I was going to say. Where am I, I'm getting ahead of myself. So what I was going to say.
25:34

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And then you'd be surprised to see the people that came from  And then you'd be surprised to see the people that came from 
25:41

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The Esplanade. They'd been sleeping under the pine trees or wherever because there used to be a lot of trees alongside the railway line going from say the fish market right down to as far as not far from Norfolk St where the toilets were. And 'cause people, they had no work and that's how they used to live and they would come in the markets. I don't know how the poor so-and-so's got on when it was raining. The Esplanade. They'd been sleeping under the pine trees or wherever because there used to be a lot of trees alongside the railway line going from say the fish market right down to as far as not far from Norfolk St where the toilets were. And 'cause people, they had no work and that's how they used to live and they would come in the markets. I don't know how the poor so-and-so's got on when it was raining.
26:13

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And you had to see it to believe it. And you had to see it to believe it.
26:17

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It's hard to explain. It's hard to explain.
26:19

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I'll tell you another thing, might be interesting. My late father used to tell me in the early days that he came to Fremantle and so the other ones that came with him. They used to pull up their boats in what is part of the Esplanade today. I'll tell you another thing, might be interesting. My late father used to tell me in the early days that he came to Fremantle and so the other ones that came with him. They used to pull up their boats in what is part of the Esplanade today.
26:39

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Quite often. Quite often.
26:41

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They'd barter  a snapper or Jewfish for a jug of beer from the  They'd barter  a snapper or Jewfish for a jug of beer from the 
26:50

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I've forgotten the name of it - the Pier Hotel. Gee I'd nearly forgotten the name of it. So you can understand you know the times those people went through. I believe they also used to tie their boats up on the North side of the South  I've forgotten the name of it - the Pier Hotel. Gee I'd nearly forgotten the name of it. So you can understand you know the times those people went through. I believe they also used to tie their boats up on the North side of the South 
27:08

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Mall in those days. Mall in those days.
27:11

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So they used to chuck out an anchor and probably pull the stern back and they'd get off on the rocks So they used to chuck out an anchor and probably pull the stern back and they'd get off on the rocks
27:19

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When they wanted to go for a walk into Fremantle or whatever they did, I don't know what the entertainment would be. When they wanted to go for a walk into Fremantle or whatever they did, I don't know what the entertainment would be.
27:29

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[Fred] Wouldn't be too much of I don't imagine, I think a drink of beer would be about it if they're lucky. [Jane] Allowing for the fact that you know times what they were and there was no choice. If you had though been able to. [Fred] Wouldn't be too much of I don't imagine, I think a drink of beer would be about it if they're lucky. [Jane] Allowing for the fact that you know times what they were and there was no choice. If you had though been able to.
27:43

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Do something else. Had you any idea in your mind of something you'd  Do something else. Had you any idea in your mind of something you'd 
27:49

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[Jane] like to have done some sort of ambition? [Fred] Well  [Jane] like to have done some sort of ambition? [Fred] Well 
27:52

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you couldn't really turn around and plan, because as I says, our parents - well our families were very, very poor and the attitude of children was  you couldn't really turn around and plan, because as I says, our parents - well our families were very, very poor and the attitude of children was 
28:08

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to get to be able to earn a shilling and bring it home because your sisters  to get to be able to earn a shilling and bring it home because your sisters 
28:15

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[Fred] There's no chance of them being sent to work because they didn't believe in it full stop. There might have been the odd occasion. I realise that that was too stupid for words, but then again, that's what they believed in. The girls didn't leave the house. Well, my sisters I'm certain they never, ever went out with boyfriends. I'm certain of that. [Jane] You would have had to go with them if they were? [Fred] Well normally that was the procedure. [Fred] There's no chance of them being sent to work because they didn't believe in it full stop. There might have been the odd occasion. I realise that that was too stupid for words, but then again, that's what they believed in. The girls didn't leave the house. Well, my sisters I'm certain they never, ever went out with boyfriends. I'm certain of that. [Jane] You would have had to go with them if they were? [Fred] Well normally that was the procedure.
28:45

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when a girl or  went out they'd be accompanied by their menfolk, fathers or brothers etc. when a girl or  went out they'd be accompanied by their menfolk, fathers or brothers etc.
28:54

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But you know, it must have been hard for them too. But you know, it must have been hard for them too.
28:60

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But that was the policy. But that was the policy.
29:03

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There was the odd European girl that did work, irrespective whether they were Italian whether they were Slav, Greek or any nationality of European stock. There was the odd ones, but not too many. 'Course sometimes it's possible they might have had a family business. There was the odd European girl that did work, irrespective whether they were Italian whether they were Slav, Greek or any nationality of European stock. There was the odd ones, but not too many. 'Course sometimes it's possible they might have had a family business.
29:25

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Which could have made the difference, you know? Which could have made the difference, you know?
29:29

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I'll just turn the tape over there. I'll just turn the tape over there.
29:33

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[Click] [Click]